Power surges

[Naam]

Could you be seeing short life of conventional lamps because you are buying cheapies?

I'm a little confused here, are you saying that some parts of your home have cleaner power than others?

wife is indeed buying cheapies but only after several years experiencing the problem. and yes, there are areas where there seems to be cleaner power. perhaps i have "clean" and "dirty" phases which cause the difference? an enigma is that (as already mentioned) the majority of bulb breaking happens the instant when the lights are switched on.

could it be that the problem is partly caused by the dimmers?

[bankruatsteve]

The bulb is actually breaking? Maybe you can answer: what is the thermal shock of a instantly hot filament inside of a frosty bulb? I wouldn't think a dimmer has any issue to that. Why don't you spell it dimmre?

[Naam]

The bulb is actually breaking? Maybe you can answer: what is the thermal shock of a instantly hot filament inside of a frosty bulb? I wouldn't think a dimmer has any issue to that. Why don't you spell it dimmre?

sorry! "breaking" was an inaccurate expression and to the best of my knowledge dimmres do not exist.

but i found some interesting alternatives

The bulb is passed on! It is no more! It has ceased to be! It's expired and gone to meet it's maker! Bereft of life, it rests in peace! It's kicked the bucket, it's shuffled off its mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisibile!! THIS IS AN EX-BULB!

[RichCor]

Could you be seeing short life of conventional lamps because you are buying cheapies?

I'm a little confused here, are you saying that some parts of your home have cleaner power than others?

<snip>

an enigma is that (as already mentioned) the majority of bulb breaking happens the instant when the lights are switched on.

Whenever my incandescent bulbs have expired, the majority of time it's always been when you first flick the switch on ...the bulb gives off an overly bright light, goes dark, and you might even hear the filament his the inside of the glass.

My guess has always been the bulb couldn't handle the power surge when the switch was flicked on, along with metal fatigue of the filament.

When we had bulbs that were placed in difficult to service locations we learned to either install Higher-VOLTAGE bulbs, or installing a small disc device in the bulb socket that dampened surges helped extend bulb life.

[Naam]

Could you be seeing short life of conventional lamps because you are buying cheapies?

I'm a little confused here, are you saying that some parts of your home have cleaner power than others?

<snip>

an enigma is that (as already mentioned) the majority of bulb breaking happens the instant when the lights are switched on.

Whenever my incandescent bulbs have expired, the majority of time it's always been when you first flick the switch on ...the bulb gives off an overly bright light, goes dark, and you might even hear the filament his the inside of the glass.

My guess has always been the bulb couldn't handle the power surge when the switch was flicked on, along with metal fatigue of the filament.

When we had bulbs that were placed in difficult to service locations we learned to either install Higher-VOLTAGE bulbs, or installing a small disc device in the bulb socket that dampened surges helped extend bulb life.

you talk about flicking switches, i talk about dimmers which gradually increase energy flow to the bulb. 90% of the lights in my home are switched by dimmers.

[RichCor]

Could you be seeing short life of conventional lamps because you are buying cheapies?

I'm a little confused here, are you saying that some parts of your home have cleaner power than others?

<snip>

an enigma is that (as already mentioned) the majority of bulb breaking happens the instant when the lights are switched on.

Whenever my incandescent bulbs have expired, the majority of time it's always been when you first flick the switch on ...the bulb gives off an overly bright light, goes dark, and you might even hear the filament his the inside of the glass.

<snip>

you talk about flicking switches, i talk about dimmers which gradually increase energy flow to the bulb. 90% of the lights in my home are switched by dimmers.

Sorry Naam, yes I tried reading between the lines when you wrote, "happens the instant when the lights are switched on."

Not ALL Dimmers ramp from OFF.5...100

Some have independent switch and dimmer OFF/ON (5...100)

allowing you to maintain a preset dimming level

Regarding early bulb burnout, the 'Internet' says:

Too Much Juice

Bulb receiving higher that rated voltage

Too Much Force

Bulb screwed in too tightly, creating stress issues

Socket loose

Center tab can't make adequate contact with the bottom of the light bulb, susceptible to arcing that can lead to power surges or the arc melting the solder at the base of the bulb

Too Much Heat

For recessed or covered light fixtures, excess heat buildup can cause light bulbs to burn out

Temperature Cycles

Multiple On/Off cycles put a lot of temperature stress on the filaments and lead to early fatigue

Dirty Globes

Oil or other contaminants on the bulb surface can lead to heat retention which leads to shortened bulb life

Too Much Vibration

If your light fixture is subject to severe vibration (either from the bulb itself or from an external source ie: unbalanced fan blade, kids, visiting Klingons), the vibration's affect on the filament could be the culprit

[PattayaClub]

Might as well throw this in, though it doesn't seem to be the problem here. Many people have recessed ceiling lighting (can lights). LED bulbs won't work in them, they will burn out early. First of all, most of them are not even supposed to be base up, and second they are never supposed to be base up in an enclosure. Too much heat for the electronics. CFL's will do better in this application, and incandescents will do best, but are expensive to operate.

There are some LED bulb made specially for use in base-up recessed ceiling lighting, but they are expensive and I have never seen them in this country.

As for cheap light bulbs. When I first came here, I was buying the cheap "promo" no-nmae CFL bulbs, thinking, "What's the difference?" The would burn out in a couple of months! When replaced with name brands like Panasonic, I never had one burn out again. I NEVER buy the cheap ones anymore. Sometime cheap can be very expensive.

Naam, I think if you put a "whole house" automatic voltage regulator (AVR) between the service and your CB panel(s), you will protect against over and under voltage as well as spikes. They launder dirty power, so you kill a lot of birds with one stone. At least this is my unprofessional understanding. Crossy? Is this 100% correct? Or are there exceptions? Do these things consume a lot of power themselves?

Finally, you need either need to turn off your air conditioners and open the windows, or buy some of those light bulbs rated for use in walk-in freezers. As mentioned above, on top of everything else, you have radical temperature extremes. Thai light bulb manufacturers never anticipated that their products would be used in an arctic environment.

[Crossy]

These are regular tungsten lamps, not halogen lamps aren't they Naam?

Halogens don't like being run cool (being dimmed) as they rely on the envelope being hot enough to keep the tungsten from the filament from condensing.

Being as they are on soft-start dimmers I really can't see what's causing premature failures, if they are not halogen lamps try running them at less than full power, they ought to last forever.

Our, Thai bought, dimmers switch on at full power and ramp down, but I have a separate switch anyway so the lamps always power on at about 25%. I have noticed that the dimmers are disturbed by power fluctuations mind.

[Naam]

Crossy,

-conventional bulbs and the newer energy saving bulbs are failing

(the latter of course are not switched by dimmers),

-never on full that's why i had a zillion dimmers installed,

-dimmers. switches and sockets are Italian made (don't remember the name now)

-never any problem with halogen bulbs in 9 years.

since several weeks less problems but bulbs still conking off.

[Naam]

PC,

-bought 3 LED bulbs, one conked off after 3 or 4 times switching on,

2 survivors but hardly used more than twice 5 minutes a day.

-we will never buy any expensive bulb again, they don't last longer than the elCheapos.

-i have over and under voltage protection but not by AVR.

whole phase is switched off when voltage varies ±12%,

never realised any voltage spike but often brown-outs.

-the average temperature in my house is constant 26-27ºC,

no need to open any windows because ventilation is on 24 hours a day

plus additional ventilation 1-2 hours (depending on ambient temperature)

by powerful whole-house fan.

"radical temperature extremes" = "cuento de hadas caca de vaca" (spanish for bullshit fairy tale)

[Crossy]

There's certainly something odd going on Naam, are all the 'iffy' lighting circuits on one phase? Chance of swapping over phases?

Can you check the various phase voltages, although you would probably notice if there was overvoltage as the conventional lamps would be over-bright, CFLs would be reduced life without brightness changes.

Has this phenomenon been going on for a while, or forever?

[Naam]

sh... my answer disappeared Crossy.

-lighting is distributed over all three phases.

-phase voltages were identical whenever i checked.

-lighting never showed an overvoltage.

-going on since we moved into the home 9 years ago.

-bulbs never break when "on", they only break when switched "on".

note: according to the Mrs the situation has improved since some months.

[bankruatsteve]

Naam, do you consider your dimmers to be of good quality? If not fitted with filters, it is possible for a dimmer to induce an initial power surge but it wouldn't make sense to build them that way. Or, maybe you are just working your way through a batch of 'bad' bulbs. BTW: How many people does it take to change one of your light bulbs?

[RichCor]

Naam, do you consider your dimmers to be of good quality? If not fitted with filters, it is possible for a dimmer to induce an initial power surge but it wouldn't make sense to build them that way. Or, maybe you are just working your way through a batch of 'bad' bulbs.

BTW: How many people does it take to change one of your light bulbs?

We've had triac dimmer circuits that would induce the bulb to him/whine at mid to lower settings.

Naam, what type of resistive dimmer are they?

Resistive Dimmers ‘chopping’ the sinusoidal mains voltage waveform.

Leading Edge -- Triac,Thyristor or SCR (Silicon Controlled Rectifier)

Trailing Edge -- MOSFET or IGBT

Inductive Dimmers

Very inductive Dimmers

Capacitive Dimmers

How a Dimmer Works UK PDF Lutron - Dimming Basics

Also, some sites mention Inrush Current

The surge is called inrush current, the cold filament has a much lower resistance than the hot filament. This is why bulbs usually fail as they're turned on. The simplest solution might be to fit a regular light dimmer, and turn them up slowly. Or a suitably rated Negative Temperature Coefficient device could be used as an inrush current suppressor.

Try this search for a lot or articles and manufacturers.

[Naam]

Naam, what type of resistive dimmer are they?

no idea Rich but definitely not the phase-shifting / power saving type we had in our homes in Germany and Florida (not available in Thailand when we built nearly 10 years ago). it was too late at that time to import something and i did not really care because we use for "normal" lighting in the home a dozen or more lamps on half-height walls and furniture. recesssed ceiling lights are mainly used during house cleaning twice a week. the bulbs of the "standing" lamps are fused too but only very few are on dimmers because they are all very low wattage.

just thought of something. we also have three chandeliers, each with 16, respectively 24 bulbs (all three on dimmers). according to the Mrs no bulb was ever replaced.

[Naam]

Naam, do you consider your dimmers to be of good quality? If not fitted with filters, it is possible for a dimmer to induce an initial power surge but it wouldn't make sense to build them that way. Or, maybe you are just working your way through a batch of 'bad' bulbs. BTW: How many people does it take to change one of your light bulbs?

i have no idea whether the dimmers are of good quality. i also have no idea what their cost was as i was quoted a fixed price for the electrical installation based on the 4 pages specifications and a couple of sketches i provided to the general contractor. the manufacturer of all sockets, switches and dimmers is the Italian company "Bticino".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bticino

nine years is a long period to work through a batch of bad bulbs. i'm not in charge of changing fused bulbs but to the best of my knowledge it does not take more than four people. let me know if you need details (age, gender, height, body weight, kind of ladders and tools used) and i will get them from the Mrs.

just now i thought of something. could it be that the number of recessed lamps is one of the reasons for our high bulb "consumption"?

here's my sketch for the ceiling lights which does not include ~36 outside lights nor the 6 lights in the pool area.

[RichCor]

<snip>

just now i thought of something. could it be that the number of recessed lamps is one of the reasons for our high bulb "consumption"?

here's my sketch for the ceiling lights which does not include ~36 outside lights nor the 6 lights in the pool area.

CL_LIGHT.jpg

Naam,

Could you give a bit more information about the blown bulb issue.

Is it an issue that concerns you enough to investigate a cause and source a solution

How many blown bulbs/year

Do you have a specific 'problem area' or problematic socket that likes to eat bulbs for breakfast

Blown bulbs are clustered to a specific area of the house, or clustered to a specific power phase

Blown bulb is only bulb on a single switch/dimmer, and/or

Blown bulb one of two or more on bank of bulbs (or reverse, rarely does a 'bank' blow a bulb early)

Using the dimmers, how quickly do you ramp up the voltage and to what level (1/2sec, 1sec, 2sec)

Any issue with refrigerator, freezer or oven bulbs (Appliance heavy glass)

How would you describe the problematic fixture

-Bulbs are mounted Base Down, Base Side, or Base Up

-Bulb is naked in Ceramic Socket

-Bulb in glassed frame, air flow from bottom

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow open to ceiling

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow restricted

-Bulb in recessed 'can' with some air venting to attic space

-etc...

[bankruatsteve]

i'm not in charge of changing fused bulbs but to the best of my knowledge it does not take more than four people. let me know if you need details (age, gender, height, body weight, kind of ladders and tools used) and i will get them from the Mrs.

Aw c'mon - I'm guessing 1 to hold the bulb, 3 to turn the ladder, and you sit on it saying "whee" "whee".

[PattayaClub]

i'm not in charge of changing fused bulbs but to the best of my knowledge it does not take more than four people. let me know if you need details (age, gender, height, body weight, kind of ladders and tools used) and i will get them from the Mrs.

Aw c'mon - I'm guessing 1 to hold the bulb, 3 to turn the ladder, and you sit on it saying "whee" "whee".

Well, not to go too far off topic, but the answer to this important question depends on who's doing the job. For example, if lawyers were changing the light bulb, it would take all of them: One to hold the light bulb and all the rest to screw the world. In the case of chiropractors, it only takes one, but it will take 42 visits to get the job done. As for how many rats it takes to screw in a light bulb, the bigger question is, how did they get in there in the first place?

[Naam]

Naam,

Could you give a bit more information about the blown bulb issue.

Is it an issue that concerns you enough to investigate a cause and source a solution

How many blown bulbs/year

not sure, perhaps 25-30

Do you have a specific 'problem area' or problematic socket that likes to eat bulbs for breakfast

area yes, sockets no

Blown bulbs are clustered to a specific area of the house, or clustered to a specific power phase

see above, phase not checked

Blown bulb is only bulb on a single switch/dimmer,

not applicable, dimmers connected to either 4, 5 or 6 bulbs

and/or

Blown bulb one of two or more on bank of bulbs (or reverse, rarely does a 'bank' blow a bulb early)

do not understand question

Using the dimmers, how quickly do you ramp up the voltage and to what level (1/2sec, 1sec, 2sec)

dimmers have a long "turning way", hardly ever turned to 100%

Any issue with refrigerator, freezer or oven bulbs (Appliance heavy glass)

none

How would you describe the problematic fixture

-Bulbs are mounted Base Down, Base Side, or Base Up

-Bulb is naked in Ceramic Socket

-Bulb in glassed frame, air flow from bottom

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow open to ceiling

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow restricted

-Bulb in recessed 'can' with some air venting to attic space

-etc...

none of this applicable as (repeat) bulbs fuse when turned on,

never when on.

[RichCor]

Naam,

Could you give a bit more information about the blown bulb issue.

<snip>

How would you describe the problematic fixture

-Bulbs are mounted Base Down, Base Side, or Base Up

-Bulb is naked in Ceramic Socket

-Bulb in glassed frame, air flow from bottom

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow open to ceiling

-Bulb in enclosed bowl, air flow restricted

-Bulb in recessed 'can' with some air venting to attic space

-etc...

none of this applicable as (repeat) bulbs fuse when turned on,

never when on.

It 'may' be applicable, as the question asks about the conditions involved in the Heat Cycle environment of the bulb.

Perhaps this type of question should have been better conceived if it went to heat/duty cycle:

Service Time, On/Off Heat Cycles, Environmental Conditions:

Of the bulbs that blow, can you say

-what type of bulbs are these (A, BR, PAR, R ?)

-how long the bulbs are in service before blowing

-how often are they cycled (on/off) before they blow

-are they in a higher duty-cycle area than other bulbs

-how long are the bulbs left on before shutting them off (heat/cooling cycle) ...and compared to other bulbs in the residence?

-are the bulbs working in more extreme conditions, compared to other similar bulbs in the residence that last longer,

(ie: enclosure heat retention, vibration, kitchen Steam or Cooking Fumes/Oils)

A house I had in California had problem areas.

PAR lamps over the kitchen sink, oven and microwave would last maybe 4 months. Yet the same PAR/BR type lamps installed on motion sensors outside (with a much higher duty cycle) would work for years.

An office bulb would blow every two months.

Guest House bathroom vanity mirror specialty bulbs ...constantly replacing.

The commonality of the blown bulbs was

[kitchen]

extreme service conditions (heat, steam vapor, cooking fumes)

High duty cycle, only switched on while kitchen in active use

Operated on 5 n-way switch (5 areas of entry)

Kitchen 'common bank' lights, have tried PAR, BR, R, K type bulbs ...no difference. I think it's surges due to the 5 n-way switches and harsher service environment. And filament fatigue due to higher/odd duty cycles.

[office]

Naked hanging type 'A' bulb, but 1930s switch and wiring

High duty cycle, Base UP

Office bulb was finally switched out with a Rough Service Bulb.

[bathroom]

Guest House bathroom vanity ...I hate specialty bulbs.

Finally swapped out the fixture for one that used normal base bulbs

Like with all things, if they build it to last they will eventually go out of business.

Some environments and service areas are a bit better suited to product longevity.

[Naam]

gentlemen,

it is most of the time interesting to solve a technical enigma and i thank your for your interest and assistance. but i have been given a short while ago a last warning by the Captain of this ship home combined with threats of dire results and draconian measures in case i bother her with one more silly question about numbers and cost of replaced light bulbs valued a few hundred Baht p.a. as long as our electricity bill is around 200,000 Baht a year based on my policy "i have not moved to Thailand to save income tax of hundreds of thousands and then sweat by saving a wee bit on electricity consumption!"

after consulting with my dogs we three arrived unanimously at the conclusion to obey the command

[RichCor]

I've leaned to NEVER ask a Thai too many questions.

Even if they are important questions.

Even if they don't risk the listener to lose face.

Like the Sicilians, there is a risk of one question too many.

And she's right.

Her time is more valuable that 30 x lightbulb price + effort to replace

As long as the place isn't in danger of catching fire, then the issue isn't that important.

The real question is, what are you going to get her to make up for it.

[Crossy]

Rich - I'll let Naam reveal the nationality of Mrs Naam

[Naam]

Rich,

assuming that Mrs Naam is Thai calls for the award "This Year's Wrongest Assumption"

[Naam]

Rich - I'll let Naam reveal the nationality of Mrs Naam

Mrs Naam holds two citizenships, British and German. but inspite of having a British mother and a German husband she considers herself neither British nor German.

[Crossy]

Rich - I'll let Naam reveal the nationality of Mrs Naam

Mrs Naam holds two citizenships, British and German. but inspite of having a British mother and a German husband she considers herself neither British nor German.

So she IS Thai then

[Naam]

does she look Thai Crossy?

[bankruatsteve]

LOL

Back to your dilemma... at some future time you might find it difficult to purchase incandescent lights. You might consider re-thinking your lighting for LED and configuring so that 1-2 lights come on separate from the whole pack. Actually, the LED "bulbs" available now might even work with your dimmers. (?) Maybe give a try with that. Cheers.

[Naam]

LOL

Back to your dilemma... at some future time you might find it difficult to purchase incandescent lights. You might consider re-thinking your lighting for LED and configuring so that 1-2 lights come on separate from the whole pack. Actually, the LED "bulbs" available now might even work with your dimmers. (?) Maybe give a try with that. Cheers.

i mentioned already that out of three LEDs i bought, one conked off after only a few days. i paid 250 Baht for each bulb whereas the cheapies cost 18 Baht. it does not take rocket science to figure out that if only 3 LEDs out of more than 100 fail it would be costlier than the replacement of >40 conventional bulbs.

moreover, by the time incandescent bulbs won't be available in Thailand i'll be long gone