Some Questions

[paully]

Thanks for the Karr update, Niteowl.

[sriracha john]

Perhaps teachers and employers could report any "raids" which have occurred since the deportation of the suspected murderer. Sunbelt reports two "alphabet" schools being raided. Does anyone know of this or others?

The immigration police came to our school today asking to see passports of foreign teachers. They aere coming back next month and want to interview all foreigners, check passports and work permits. The school lawyer seems to be pretty worried about it.

Tiu Pai Ngam bilingual school was raided yesterday. Teachers without work permits have 1 month to get them, non degree teachers are out the door by the end of the month.

I have just heard my first reliable firsthand report of a school raid on a school. The raid was executed against a private school with a largish EP program in the greater Bangkok area. 3 teachers who had been working there without WP's were subjected to particular scrutiny.

The school itself had refused to sponsor them because as a private school, it's harder for them to get WP's for people, especially without college degrees- which was true in the case of these 3 teachers [public schools can sponsor TEFLers without degrees for WPs, as far as is known at the moment]. They were doing TEFL. The other teachers at the school had degrees and WP's.

They were told to get their paperwork straight by the end of September or get out of Thailand.

I don't know if any disciplinary measures were taken against the school. Certainly labour law advocates pretty strict measures. Maybe there was a grace period for both the illegal employees and the school.

"Steven"

I think he meant Thewphaingarm School. And yes the school was raided and teachers without the workpermit (or one in the process) are out the door. NOT a good vibe at the school now...... Lots of teachers are now having to leave.

No degree = No workpermit at Thewphaingarm.

I know of 3 International schools that have been raided over the past couple of days. Am I allowed to mention the names? One school (a deep shaft with water at the bottom and a bucket attached to a pulley) was raided and all foreign teachers taken to 'jail' till late last night. Just wondering if I am ok if my work permit is in process?

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail.

Don't be daft.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

Names/dates/schools please.

As per above is a good start.

Edited September 8, 2006 by sriracha john

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, but will it seem so good to those of you who have children when school fees for English language instruction suddenly spike? In the long run, this will adjust itself- but it could cause major problems and inconvenience in the short run.

[PeaceBlondie]

Or will farang and rich Thai families suddenly find their child's expensive English classes being taught by Africans, Indians, and Burmese?

[Loaded]

Perhaps teachers and employers could report any "raids" which have occurred since the deportation of the suspected murderer. Sunbelt reports two "alphabet" schools being raided. Does anyone know of this or others?

The immigration police came to our school today asking to see passports of foreign teachers. They aere coming back next month and want to interview all foreigners, check passports and work permits. The school lawyer seems to be pretty worried about it.

Tiu Pai Ngam bilingual school was raided yesterday. Teachers without work permits have 1 month to get them, non degree teachers are out the door by the end of the month.

I have just heard my first reliable firsthand report of a school raid on a school. The raid was executed against a private school with a largish EP program in the greater Bangkok area. 3 teachers who had been working there without WP's were subjected to particular scrutiny.

The school itself had refused to sponsor them because as a private school, it's harder for them to get WP's for people, especially without college degrees- which was true in the case of these 3 teachers [public schools can sponsor TEFLers without degrees for WPs, as far as is known at the moment]. They were doing TEFL. The other teachers at the school had degrees and WP's.

They were told to get their paperwork straight by the end of September or get out of Thailand.

I don't know if any disciplinary measures were taken against the school. Certainly labour law advocates pretty strict measures. Maybe there was a grace period for both the illegal employees and the school.

"Steven"

I think he meant Thewphaingarm School. And yes the school was raided and teachers without the workpermit (or one in the process) are out the door. NOT a good vibe at the school now...... Lots of teachers are now having to leave.

No degree = No workpermit at Thewphaingarm.

I know of 3 International schools that have been raided over the past couple of days. Am I allowed to mention the names? One school (a deep shaft with water at the bottom and a bucket attached to a pulley) was raided and all foreign teachers taken to 'jail' till late last night. Just wondering if I am ok if my work permit is in process?

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail.

Don't be daft.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

Names/dates/schools please.

As per above is a good start.

One name of one school.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

One name would be a good start

[niteowl]

Or will farang and rich Thai families suddenly find their child's expensive English classes being taught by Africans, Indians, and Burmese?

If that became the case, and I were a Thai parent, I would stop paying.

Why should I pay extra, to have a Burmese (or African, or Phillipino, for that matter), teaching my child, as opposed to a Thai teacher? I can't think of a good reason.

And, Thai people aren't known for parting with their money for no good reason.

[Whitey]

John Karr was not a properly certified teacher in the US. He attended college in Alabama, but dropped out before completing his required student teaching assignment. He was subsequently awarded a BS degree (as opposed to a BEd degree, a requirement for a teaching certificate in most states) by Regent College in Albany, New York. Regent College (now Excelsior College) is an online diploma mill, basically a half-step up from a degree from KSR.

Niteowl, did you even bother to check things out before you posted this drivel? Did you visit the website of the school? Did you do any research? I am not going to argue semantics, but when you post this drivel, you lose all respect people have for you.

You called it a diploma mill, just what is a diploma mill? To me, I think of a diploma mill as a university, college or school that is in the business of printing up diploma. But better than take my word for it, let's look at wikipedia says:

A diploma mill (also known as a degree mill) is an organization which awards academic degrees and diplomas with little or no academic study, and without recognition by official bodies. Such organizations are unaccredited by standards of traditional institutions, but they often claim accreditation by non-standard organizations set up for the purposes of providing a veneer of authenticity.

Diploma mill: An institution of higher education operating without supervision of a state or professional agency and granting diplomas which are either fraudulent or because of the lack of proper standards worthless. —Webster’s Third New International Dictionary

The FTC has a long list of things to look for on their website, http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/diplomaalrt.htm and they tell you to look to see if it has a genuine accreditation to determine if it is a diploma mill or not.

Since all three definitions talk about accreditation, let's see if this Excelsior College is accredited. The Department of Education maintains a website to check the status, the web address is: http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/

Can you guess what it shows?

ACCREDITATION

Regional Institutional Accrediting Agency

Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools, Commission on Higher Education

National Institutional and Specialized Accrediting Bodies

National League for Nursing Accrediting Commission

Nursing (ADNUR) - Associate degree programs

Nursing (NUR) - Baccalaureate and higher degree programs

Wow, Excelsior College is accredited by the same people who handle all legitimate universities through the Middle States area! I guess Niteowl is only left with arguing whether the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools is a genuine accrediting body or not....

So it is accredited by an accreditation body that matters in the US. Ok, what else is what makes a diploma mill? Little or no academic study? Well, what does it take to get a degree from Excelsior College?

It takes 120 semester hours of study, 30 of those credits must be upper division hours. How do you get the credits? Excelsior College only offers a limited number of courses, the bulk of the credits need to come from credits transfered from an accredited univeristy or college. Credits are also accepted for the CLEP and DSST exams, not unusual since thousands of universities and colleges in the US accept them for credit as well. In other words, you need to do just as much work to get a BA or BS from Excelsior College as you do to get one from a "normal" institution of learning.

Ok, so it isn't little or no academic study....what about "life experience" credit? No way, they do not give credit for life experience. You need bonafide credit from an accredited university. I even had upper division credit from a state university in North Dakota bumped down to lower division.

Ok, Webster's talks about without oversight of a professional or state agency. Who exactly runs Excelsior College. Up until 199, it was run by the state of New York. Now, it is a private university that is a member of the University of the State of New York. Degrees issued by Excelsior is under authority of the Board of Regents of the University of the State of New York.

Who are they? Do they matter?

Established by the New York State Legislature on May 1, 1784, the Regents of The University of the State of New York form the oldest, continuous state education entity in America. The Regents are responsible for the general supervision of all educational activities within the State, presiding over The University and the New York State Education Department. The Regents are organized into standing committees and subcommittees whose members and chairs are appointed by the Chancellor.

The Board comprises 16 members elected by the State Legislature for 5 year terms: 1 from each of the State's 12 judicial districts and 4 members who serve at large. Regents are unsalaried and are reimbursed only for travel and related expenses in connection with their official duties.

The University of the State of New York is the nation's most comprehensive and unified educational system. It consists of all elementary, secondary, and postsecondary educational institutions, libraries, museums, public broadcasting, records and archives, professions, Vocational and Educational Services for Individuals with Disabilities, and such other institutions, organizations, and agencies as may be admitted to The University. The concept of The University of the State of New York is a broad term encompassing all the institutions, both public and private, offering education in the State.

Wow, so Excelsior College is under a state agency, the oldest state educational entity in the US? Niteowl, are you still with us?

So what criteria is left? Someone on another board mentioned getting the degree from the mailbox. Ok so the degree comes in the mail? My sister is finishing her BA from Fort Hays State University in Kansas. She has the option of taking all of the courses for the degree through online study or she can take the classes in person, she has opted for online classes. Her degree will come by mail, oops does that mean FHSU is a diploma mill? Of course, Excelsior College students do have the option of receiving their degree at a graduation ceremony. So, if the student takes part in the graduation ceremony than it is a real degree, but if he doesn't then it is a diploma mill degree? Seems like shaky standing.

[niteowl]

Jeez, Whitey, pop a Prozac, m'kay?

So, from your tirade, I take it that you don't have an issue with any of the (easily verifiable) statements I made about John Karr's other "qualifications" as a teacher?

Well, you're right, I confess I didn't check Excelsior College's pedigree thoroughly before I wrote that post. I did attempt to access their website, to find out what degrees they offered, and how much they charged per credit hour. I was unable to, without giving them personal information that I was not willing to divulge. So, I assumed the worst.

It seems that Excelsior College is, indeed, accredited. My sincere apologies.

None of which changes the gist of my post, which was: John Mark Karr was not qualified to teach (in New York state, where he earned his degree, or any other state that I'm aware of). You can't do student teaching by email. Period. You can't obtain a Bachelor of Education degree without having been evaluated by a teacher, as a teacher. Period. And John Mark Karr never successfully completed his student teaching assignment.

On the gist of my comments, I remain uncorrected, and unrepentant.

Edited September 9, 2006 by niteowl

[PeaceBlondie]

Obviously, Niteowl's inadvertent mistake (the only apparent mistake in his original post in this thread) hit a raw nerve with Whitey. I know both these fine gentlemen as friends, and I know they're both good teachers, so let me just point out something:

Qualifications are extremely difficult to verify. There's a story over on teflwatch that a true university graduate was refused employment in Thailand because his baccalaureate degree spelled all the letters in Roman style, so all the u and U letters came out as v and V. ijustwannateach has told that even 'baccalaureate' once required a translation, as if Bangkok is full of Latin/Roman translators!

And while we are confessing the errors of our ways, my own uni degree was from a private school that was only accredited during my third or fourth year of attendance. Yet, all my credit hours are "accredited." The name of the uni went through 2 or 3 changes after I got that 'sheepskin.'

Oh, and does a degree need to be printed on sheep's skin?

The paper chase for a bachelor's degree may end up with a paper that doesn't look authentic. I just got two copies of my academic transcripts. I'm keeping them sealed, not only in their sealed selves, but inside the postal envelope by which they arrived in Thailand, from the official registrar. That's because when they are opened, they will look dodgy, since the registrar in those days couldn't get the funds for authentic looking transcript paper!

Speaking of the registrar and going through a degree-granting ceremony, I was already in graduate school when they had the ceremony. I went back months later, and Dr. Martin handed me my degree over the half-door of his office, while I was wearing beach clothes, with no ceremony at all. Oh, he did shake my hand - his son and I had been classmates; we all went to the same church. I saved money by not having to rent the robes and the regalia.

And what subjects are inside that sealed transcript? Pastoral ministry, old testament survey, new testament theology, social psychology, world history - none of which I teach in Thailand. I also took accounting courses at numerous junior colleges (lower division universities, night schools) whose names were so dodgy that even an assistant registrar laughed at them!

[Whitey]

Sorry if I came off pyscho crazy, I have just seen it one too many times in rpint that John Karr got his degree from a diploma mill. I worked hard and made sacrifices to make sure that I had a degree and wasn't working on dodgy paperwork. To see someone casually refer to it as a diploma mill made my blood boil.

You are right, Niteowl, I do agree with the rest of that post. Why? Because i have thought the same myself. Why the heck was he teaching in public schools in the US when he didn't get his degree until 2000 and even then it wasn't a teaching degree.

Onto what PeaceBlondie says about the verification of credentials. This is always a tough one. I have been involved in hiring in the past and when I come across a university that looks dodgy, I just check for if they are accredited by a "real" accrediting organization. For the US, the DOE has really made it easy. Here is the site again:

http://www.ope.ed.gov/accreditation/

Peace Blondie also talks about the sheepskin. Ha, when I got my degree, the thing I thought first was, well, this would sure be easy to copy, I could make easily made a fake copy of it and saved myself a lot of hard work.

My prior university transcripts are a joke. They were simple paper with the seal embossed on them. I don't know if they have improved them in the last few years, but when I was working in the computer lab for work study, a co-worker was printing off the semester grades and he gave me and anyone who wanted them blank copies. I wouldn't dare pass out any of those copies, real or fake because they looked so dodgy.

[niteowl]

When I was a student (SUNY Brockport; any Eagles out there?), there was a woman in her forties who applied for admission to our college.

She had originally entered college right out of high school. She had dropped out in her senior year, to get married, and subsequently, raise a family.

Now, years later, her children were grown, and she wanted to complete her schooling, to become certified as a teacher. An admirable ambition, but a problem came to light.

Although her college (I forget which one it was) was fully accredited at the time she attended, it had lost its accreditation years later. Had she completed her coursework before the school lost its accreditation, her diploma would, of course, be valid. Even after the school lost its accreditation, you have a window when you would be able to complete your degree requirements, or transfer your credits to another school, in order to complete your degree. But, she didn't realize her school had lost its accreditation; and the window for completing her degree expired.

So, although her school was fully accredited at the time she completed her roughly 90 hours of coursework, those hours were no longer valid. She was told, if she were accepted at Brockport, she would have to begin as a Freshman. I don't think we heard from her again.

Sad case, really.

Edited September 9, 2006 by niteowl

[PeaceBlondie]

Also, as for paperwork, there's no standard format throughout the Western world for what a diploma looks like. I heard one uni gives the option of standard shape or very tall. Two of my friends have monstrous size master's degrees and professional licenses; they can plaster an office wall.

Same with academic transcripts; no standard format that I'm aware of. What is GEO 101 - geography or geology? The course numbers don't tell much, either; 3 or 4 digits. Semester hours, credit hours. Grading scale: ABCDF and dropped and incomplete; pass or fail. Points for grading: is the best mark a 5, or a 4?

And does the University of Texas at Brownsville-Texas Southmost College-Port Isabel Branch offer courses as academically sound as the courses at UTB-TSC-South Padre Island Branch, or UT at Austin? No.

The days are long gone, and may have never existed in Thailand, when a knowledgable recruiter at a good employer would ask who your major professor was.

[Ijustwannateach]

Productive discussion- thanks for the informative debate, Whitey & Niteowl.

Japan has central governmental verification of the degrees- but their bureaucratic development is light-years ahead of Thailand, and even so people slip through. To get where they are now took decades. Leaving verification up to local schools is just as good has having no verification at all.

"Steven"

[sriracha john]

Perhaps teachers and employers could report any "raids" which have occurred since the deportation of the suspected murderer. Sunbelt reports two "alphabet" schools being raided. Does anyone know of this or others?

The immigration police came to our school today asking to see passports of foreign teachers. They aere coming back next month and want to interview all foreigners, check passports and work permits. The school lawyer seems to be pretty worried about it.

Tiu Pai Ngam bilingual school was raided yesterday. Teachers without work permits have 1 month to get them, non degree teachers are out the door by the end of the month.

I have just heard my first reliable firsthand report of a school raid on a school. The raid was executed against a private school with a largish EP program in the greater Bangkok area. 3 teachers who had been working there without WP's were subjected to particular scrutiny.

The school itself had refused to sponsor them because as a private school, it's harder for them to get WP's for people, especially without college degrees- which was true in the case of these 3 teachers [public schools can sponsor TEFLers without degrees for WPs, as far as is known at the moment]. They were doing TEFL. The other teachers at the school had degrees and WP's.

They were told to get their paperwork straight by the end of September or get out of Thailand.

I don't know if any disciplinary measures were taken against the school. Certainly labour law advocates pretty strict measures. Maybe there was a grace period for both the illegal employees and the school.

"Steven"

I think he meant Thewphaingarm School. And yes the school was raided and teachers without the workpermit (or one in the process) are out the door. NOT a good vibe at the school now...... Lots of teachers are now having to leave.

No degree = No workpermit at Thewphaingarm.

I know of 3 International schools that have been raided over the past couple of days. Am I allowed to mention the names? One school (a deep shaft with water at the bottom and a bucket attached to a pulley) was raided and all foreign teachers taken to 'jail' till late last night. Just wondering if I am ok if my work permit is in process?

Ill probably have little option but to work without a one?

I suppose this is what I have difficulty comprehending. How an intelligent person can travel half-way around the world and so casually place themselves in such a precarious position... risking freedom and putting themselves in direct jeopardy of apprehension and confinement in a SE Asian jail.

Don't be daft.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

Names/dates/schools please.

As per above is a good start.

One name of one school.

Who has ever been locked up in jail for teaching without a wp?

One name would be a good start

They're not a big enough deal to report about it in the papers, HOWEVER, I think quite soon, there will be quite a few articles in the papers...

Immigration Confirms The End of Border Runs From Oct 1, 2006, Thailand tightens visa rules thread.

[kenkannif]

^ Have you checked with Immigration directly in regards to Visa changes???

Not happening mate

[mittheimp]

I'm looking to work in or around Chiang Mai; how hard will it be to get a job... either part time or full time?

What type of salary range would I be looking at?

Would I ever be able to get a work permit?

If anyone can answer these or give me some advice,thnx a lot

Jon

Hi Jon,

Welcome to Thai Visa, and thanks for the compliment.

Chiang Mai is a lovely place to live in many ways. But for people starting out to teach, without good qualifications, the salaries are low. 200 to 300 baht an hour; or usually 25K to 27K per month (maybe not for all the months of the year, either). Of course, I could be wrong and maybe I wasn't lucky. Same with work permit; you might get lucky, but I never did, and I had lots of the right documents. I think Loaded said here recently that there are hundreds of TEFLers in this area without WP's.

Get the best visa you can, preferably a one-year multiple entry. Then you do visa runs to Mae Sai (for example from Chiang Mai) every 89 days instead of every 29 days. Dress smart, act clever and proper, speak well, etc.

Perhaps several others have advice. Who's next?

Isn't 25-27K a bit optimistic for someone arriving with just a tefl and no experience - in chiang mai? Bangkok maybe but i would have thought in CM this kind of salary would be quite difficult to obtain?

[kayo]

nah, I got 23k working Kanch. with only an old TEFL

And I only got the wp after starting work.. .School admin took, er.... their time, shall we say.

Not that I was a teacher--- ever... really...

[Loaded]

I'm looking to work in or around Chiang Mai; how hard will it be to get a job... either part time or full time?

What type of salary range would I be looking at?

Would I ever be able to get a work permit?

If anyone can answer these or give me some advice,thnx a lot

Jon

Hi Jon,

Welcome to Thai Visa, and thanks for the compliment.

Chiang Mai is a lovely place to live in many ways. But for people starting out to teach, without good qualifications, the salaries are low. 200 to 300 baht an hour; or usually 25K to 27K per month (maybe not for all the months of the year, either). Of course, I could be wrong and maybe I wasn't lucky. Same with work permit; you might get lucky, but I never did, and I had lots of the right documents. I think Loaded said here recently that there are hundreds of TEFLers in this area without WP's.

Get the best visa you can, preferably a one-year multiple entry. Then you do visa runs to Mae Sai (for example from Chiang Mai) every 89 days instead of every 29 days. Dress smart, act clever and proper, speak well, etc.

Perhaps several others have advice. Who's next?

Isn't 25-27K a bit optimistic for someone arriving with just a tefl and no experience - in chiang mai? Bangkok maybe but i would have thought in CM this kind of salary would be quite difficult to obtain?

I know quite a few teachers working here in CM in private schools with wp, 25K+, paid holidays who have no degree but have a TEFL. There are also a few with absolutely no qualifications, but earn 25K+/month. A lot is down to who you know in this city. Doing your TEFL locally will mean that you will benefit from the contacts the TEFL school has.

[PeaceBlondie]

Exactly. I know of a backpacker, young, no qualifications, making about 32K. Luck of the draw.

[Loaded]

Luck of the draw.

...and contacts in schools.

[kayo]

and around town contactshe must have ...

But, good natured and effective individual, he must be....

Sorry! In the process of posting as Yoda, to some Kid called Dan Sai... :D

[Jonson83]

These new visa laws for sure then or what?? ....<deleted>!

Multiple entry non-immigrant visa for certain then.Not like i have a choice.

Loaded,

Do you think the Thai TEFL school contacts will really help? or at the end of the course some thai guys going to give me a piece of paper with some thai scribble on a phone number and say phone him ...hehe .Just that im caught in two minds,as i would like to book my TEFL course here in England soon.Ill probably end up taking it twice....

[Loaded]

These new visa laws for sure then or what?? ....<deleted>!

Multiple entry non-immigrant visa for certain then.Not like i have a choice.

Loaded,

Do you think the Thai TEFL school contacts will really help? or at the end of the course some thai guys going to give me a piece of paper with some thai scribble on a phone number and say phone him ...hehe .Just that im caught in two minds,as i would like to book my TEFL course here in England soon.Ill probably end up taking it twice....

Not necessary to get a multi-entry as a single will be OK until you find a school that can sponsor your wp. BUT a multi-entry means that you can take your time to find work so is preferable.

Contacts do work here. A mate of mine is working in a private school earning close to 30K because he was introduced to the school by someone they trusted and had worked with before. He doesn't have a degree. I know a few others here with no formal qualifications other than a TEFL and they're doing well because of who they know. I know at my school if we get a phone call from someone we know and whose judgement we trust to say they have a mate looking for work, we'll meet them.

Good luck whatever you choose to do.

[Jonson83]

Superb info,thanks for the response.

I think a one year multiple entry visa will be best as i dont plan on doing any job searching at first.Best to be on the safe sound and be sorted for a year.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

and around town contactshe must have ...

But, good natured and effective individual, he must be....

Sorry! In the process of posting as Yoda, to some Kid called Dan Sai... :D

Thank you, my master!

[kenkannif]

You'll get a multi if they know what they're doing chap.

[the swagman]

Probably is better to get it in Thailand as you'll then have your OTP with Thai students etc. If you do it in the UK by necessity it will be more of an ESL course and you won't really be learning to teach your target students. Actually many perks in doing it in country (Visa, work, specific training etc.).

Many TEFL degree done in Thailand are not recognized outside the country.

[kenkannif]

^ Yeah if it's uncertified and has no Uni behind it it can be.

But generally if you can do the job you'll get the job....the TEFL is the icing on the cake.