Thai phrases for "gift"

[Acharn]

Many years ago I was reading one of Dr. Pasuk Phonpaichit's books on the history of Thailand and its Economy. Not sure which one, probably "Corruption & Democracy in Thailand," a great read. In fact all her books are good and I recommend them to anyone who plans to stay in Thailand and wants to understand recent history. Anyway, in the last Chapter she discussed the various euphemisms Thais used in those days to describe the bribes they paid. I don't remember, but I suppose she mentioned the phrase, "tea money," which most of us are familiar with. She mentioned one phrase in particular, based on the word "sin," as in "sin sod," the "gift" you make the tha parents of the girl you want to marry. She said the phrase for such a "gift" to a policeman would be called by another phrase, not "sin jai," but "sin somepaliword" that meant something like "gift from the heart." The connotation was that you were making this gift not to get anything in return but out of admiration for the dedication to duty that would lead someone to accept the onerous burdens of a public official, and possibly the dangers inherent in a policeman's life. I don't have the book any more, and it seems to be out of print.

Anybody know the phrase I'm looking for? She actually mentioned three or four phrases based on "sin," but the others weren't actually used for the case of presenting a gift (maybe not money but a bottle of Johnny Walker Red). The point of this particular euphemism was that it allowed the official to see the gift as something other than corruption, and so feel better about accepting it.

[surangw]

a loan of money becomes a gift soon after the money is handed over

[eric67]

Maybe sin bon?

http://www.thai-language.com/id/227901#def2

[Mole]

No, it's not "sin bon", it's สินน้ำใจ "sin nam jai".

[Acharn]

Not sure. I think I would have remembered "sin nam jai." My vague memory is that it was at least two syllables, maybe three, and the word looked like it was derived from Pali or Sanskrit. Dr. Pasuk explained that it meant a gift from the heart, with no coercion, given purely because of admiration for the wonderful qualities of the giftee. The absence of coercion was important, as was the lack of a hope of reciprocity, because she was explaining why a government official or policeman could accept the gift without admitting, to himself, it was a bribe. Bear in mind she was writing about the period of the expansion of the "rice frontier," when whole families could pack up and move to the Khorat Plateau, where the jungle was being destroyed to "fight communists," and there was land for the taking. There was still a strong tension between "baan" and "meuang," and people from the villages would go to town to work for a couple of months and then return home. She was explaining the dynamics that allowed the godfathers in the countryside to become powerful politicians in Bangkok. Thailand is a somewhat different place now from what it was even in the middle '90s. On the other hand, perhaps it was "sin nam jai" and I'm just making it more complicated than it was. Since I'm not a native speaker I may not grasp all the connotations of "nam jai." It's a phrase I would find difficult to express in English. as is "kreng jai."

Edited April 1, 2015 by Acharn

[DavidHouston]

Taking a step out, it is possible that the term you are looking for is "เบี้ยกันดาร (กฎ) น. เงินที่จ่ายช่วยเหลือข้าราชการและลูกจ้างประจําเนื่องจาก การปฏิบัติราชการประจําในท้องที่กันดารหรือโรงในเรียนที่กันดาร"? One dictionary translates this term as "hardship supplement".

A discussion regarding amounts paid can be found at "คลังคำ", ดร. นววรรณ พันธุเมธา, หนัา 752-753

Edited April 1, 2015 by DavidHouston

[Acharn]

I've become pretty convinced now that the phrase must have been "สิน บน". The definition given in that dictionary entry is just too close to what Dr. Pasuk was talking about. Don't know why I was so sure the second word in the phrase was polysyllabic. The one thing I'm absolutely sure of was that the first word in the phrase was "sin," because it was the first time I realized the "sin" in "sin sod" was the same as the "sin" in "sin khaa." By the way, sorry for not typing in Thai. Even though I've been here a long time I only read Thai fairly laboriously, and I'm reluctant to attempt writing because I can never remember the correct spelling, especially tone marks.

[Mole]

The way you described in in your original post as "gift from the heart" surely sounds like สินน้ำใจ than สินบน

"Sin bon" is always used in context meaning "bribe".

The meaning of "sin nam jai" is exactly as you wrote, that it's a gift out of admiration where nothing is expected in return, while "sin bon" is a bribe where of course something is expected in return.

You should also not get too stuck up in the meaning of each individual words, because often when words are combined in Thai, they may get an entire different meaning. In Thai, always look at the meaning of the full word.

Another pitfall, as you can see in my next post is that many Thai words may be spelled exactly the same, but have totally different meanings. Sometimes, there may be some slightly different spellings, but pronounced the same, but sometimes, they're spelled exactly the same.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Mole

[Mole]

Also, I had a look at that link in thai-language.com and again it confirms that this site is probably run by some farangs and not really Thai people who are expert in Thai language. I see inconsistencies and errors on this site so often that I just can't take it seriously.

In there, it is explained that บน means up or above. Although this is the most common meaning of the word บน, บน can also mean "oath or pray".

For instance, when people go to a particular shrine to make a wish, it's called บน and when their wish is granted, it's expected that they go back to that shrine and แก้บน in a timely manner, otherwise their wish which was granted may be reversed. For example in the famous Erawan shrine near Rachaprasong, when people had their wish granted, they'll go back to แก้บน and give donation to dancers to perform a dance as thanks to the gods.

In the case of meaning of สินบน it's not "wealth"+"up/above" but "wealth"+"oath", in other words, "oath money", which is quite metaphoric for "bribe".

Edited April 2, 2015 by Mole

[Mole]

Link with proper explaining word components of สินบน, only in Thai language though.

According to the link, บน is originally a Khmer word.

http://www.royin.go.th/th/knowledge/detail.php?ID=4050

When reading your additional posts, the word you're after can be no other word than สินน้ำใจ, definitely not สินบน, trust me. Actually, don't just trust me, ask any other Thai person (or farang who is proficient in Thai for that matter) that you know, and they'll tell you the same as I do.

Edited April 2, 2015 by Mole

[eric67]

Looking around on Google a bit I found these excerpts from a book that describes the distinction Pasuk Phongpaichit makes on the different levels of corruption:

https://books.google.nl/books?id=PRELBAAAQBAJ&pg=PT62&dq=Pasuk+Phongpaichit+sin+nam+jai&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=wwQfVZzVM5ffarWCgHg&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Pasuk%20Phongpaichit%20sin%20nam%20jai&f=false

Ranging from not that bad to really bad:

Sin nam jai - สินน้ำใจ - a gift of good will

Kha nam ron nam cha - ค่าน้ำร้อนน้ำชา - tea money

Praphuet mi chop - ประพฤติมิชอบ - improper behavior

Sin bon, rit thai - สินบน, รีดไถ - bribery, extortion

Thucharit to nati - ทุจริตต่อหน้าที่ - dishonesty in duty

Kan khorrapchan - การคอรัปชั่น - corruption

(the Thai script is my interpretation of the transcription, any corrections are welcome)

So Mole was right with sin nam jai

[Acharn]

Thanks to everybody who contributed. Unless someone has a copy of Dr. Pasuk's book, "Corruption and Democracy in Thailand," which seems to be out of print, I don't know of any way to verify one or other of the likely candidates. I do remember clearly that the first word in the phrase was "sin," because at the time there was a discussion of "sin sod" at the usenet news group soc.culture.thai going on. My first choice was "sin bon", because the definition David Houston sent me:

สินบน(โบ) น. ทรัพย์หรือสิ่งของที่จะให้เป็นเครื่องบูชาคุณหรือตอบแทนผู้ที่จะช่วยให้สําเร็จตามประสงค์; (กฎ) ทรัพย์สินหรือประโยชน์อื่นใดที่ให้แก่บุคคลเพื่อจูงใจให้ผู้นั้นกระทําการหรือไม่กระทําการอย่างใดในตําแหน่ง ไม่ว่าการนั้นชอบหรือมิชอบด้วยหน้าที่; เงินตราที่จ่ายให้แก่ผู้นําจับ.

The second definition, labelled "กฎ" is this non-pejorative use of the word.

Sounds exactly like what Dr. Pasuk was describing. On the other hand, the consensus seems to be that "sin bon" is definitely used to describe a bribe, and she was very clear that the phrase was used because it DID NOT suggest a bribe. I wonder if there has been a shift in the meaning of the word since she wrote in the late '80s to early '90s.

[Mole]

No, there hasn't been any shift in meaning since 80s.

Also, that bold you Quoted says something like:

Money or favours given to a person in order to influence that person's duties.

Do you read Thai? I don't think you actually understood that phrase correctly. Did you use google translation or something?

Like I said, if the emphasis was that it was not a bribe, then it can only be สินน้ำใจ. สินบน always means bribe.

[Acharn]

I read Thai fairly laboriously. Mostly at about prathom four or five level. Obviously I did misunderstand the language.

[rcjoop]

The list of posting 11 is from the book page 135.

here and in the rest of the chapter it is often repeated always using sin bon for corruption and sin namjai as a gift of good will often in a patron-client type relationship.

Joop

[Acharn]

Ah, thanks, joop. I should have followed the link in the first place. The first thing I got was a message in Dutch saying that I had reached a page outside the allowed sample or something, but after clicking around I've gotten to the beginning of Chapter 5, and the discussion of terms for bribery, extortion, etc. It's 11:00PM, I'm exhausted, and I'll read it tomorrow, but that looks like a very interesting passage. I should have thought of searching Google Books, but I've used it so rarely it just never came to my mind. Well, one thing about living in Thailand, every time I start getting too full of myself something happens to remind my how ignorant I still am. I wish I still had Dr. Pasuk's book, it's a fascinating history of Thailand under the Ratthanakosin dynasty.