Chequebook Buddhism offers Thais stairway to heaven

[trogers]

More Thais are wakened to corruption in temples. Many have made it a point to worship and donate only at poor temples now.

[clockman]

Monks are just men, in orange robes!

[English 1]

From what I understand from honestly spoken Thai is that they pray for material goods and money........

Winning the Lottery seems to be number 1.

When I arrived here 12 years ago I had an open mind regarding Monks but now because of their behaviour

I would not visit another Temple.

I was on a train from Bangkok to Kanchanaburi and there was a special seating ares in the carriages set aside for monks.....

I watched 3 drinking alcohol and smoking.

[Daniel Ingalls]

........................And he raises the magical wan high above the people, and splash water blessed by the spirits of those before us. Water purifies the soul and cleanses the mind to think of richness which awaits us in the afterlife.

I rattled the chopsticks in a cup, and one emerges above the others, telling me of good fortune. I walk down the path of clay pots, inserting coins at each pot as I journey my way around the golden pyramid of the unknown monk.

I bang the big bell several times for good luck, I lit an orange candle with a lotus flower and place it near hundreds of others before me.............I then walk out of the temple, with a sigh of relief, knowing I paid my respects.

Jump in my car and face the world of idiots on the highway, trying to create as much mayhem as possible. I see money being passed from hand to hand for dope, pickpockets scanning the crowds, and ladies of the night spending their hard erned money for Buddha flowers.......life goes on!

[bangon04]

More Thais are wakened to corruption in temples. Many have made it a point to worship and donate only at poor temples now.

Most of the silly sideshows in the temple grounds are animist, primitive superstition, often copied from Chinese influences, and all designed to collect money by playing on the uneducated fear of the unknown. As with most religious indoctrinations, education is the best defence.

Nothing to do with Buddhist teachings, and nothing to do with spiritual enlightenment.

Buy a lottery ticket and take a tarot reading....

[Johnny S]

Monks are just men, in orange robes!

Men in orange robes begging from widows and orphanages - I thought monks were not to own anything but I guess WHO can live without an Iphone6 ....

[Lupatria]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

All wrong.....here and there, but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this.

This is close to blasphemy Costas, are you questioning your dear leader can solve this problem?

[ggt]

Many religions give preference to those who fork over the most money...some even require 15-20% of gross income to be a member in good standing...

Buying spiritual favors is as old as religion itself...

[Basil B]

For 5.000 Baht I offer Buddhist heaven

6.500 Baht Muslim heaven, for the 12 virgins 1500 Baht each

10.000 Baht for roman catholic heaven (with Vatican it is a bit more expensive to bribe the right angles)

100% success rate, no complains. Full guarantee and refund if it does not work as expected.

Other religions, drop me an email.

Stairway to Heaven or a Super Slider to Hell?

For triple money you get a stairlift thrown in...

[Basil B]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

All wrong.....here and there, but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this.

This is close to blasphemy Costas, are you questioning your dear leader can solve this problem?

OK the Borgias were fiction but a little research and hay-presto: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sexually_active_popes

[connda]

King Rama IV had it right with the establishment of the Dhammayut order. At the present rate of decline, 'Thai Therevada' Buddhism isn't going to resemble anything that the Buddha taught 2500 years ago.

It doesn't get any simpler that sila, samadhi, panna, and the adherence to the Vinyana. But it's literally a small minority of Buddhists that are following, for lack of a better description, fundamental Theravada Buddhism. When you see money being revered right up there with Animistic deities, it's time to find another wat.

My teacher would simply have say, 'Ignore what they're doing and concentrate on your own practice.' He had a point.

[jollyhangmon]

I was sitting outside a pub sipping a bourbon, recently, when a barefoot monk walked past. He walked past the next door shop house where there was a pair of shoes on the doorstep. He stopped, turned back, and slipped the shoes onto his feet, then carried on. Other people saw him, nobody even took a second glance.

Yep. Whenever i come across a little bigger group of 'em i can't avoid noticing that a fair number gives the impression of just hiding out under that robe, sort of laying low a bit ... however there you got one reason for the alleged low unemployment figures too ...

[jollyhangmon]

The Thai Christian churches of the Protestant denomination offer a very different approach. I have been in a few of them and the Thai version intentionally avoids the excesses. It explains why a small but growing number of Thais are interested in the Churches which focus on non material activities and emphasize equality and spiritual aspects.

Even in the Thai version of Islam, there is an absence commercial business. No idols, no relics, no payment for indulgences.

Because Jesus himself drove traders and moneychangers from the temple accusing them of turning the temple into a den of thieves.

... oh yeah, remember that one!

It's out of >Spaceballs<, ain't it ...?

[khaowong1]

Your right Connda, Unfortunately, the Dhammakaya are now in charge of the Sangha. I was a Dhammayut monk and didn't see any of these excesses that everyone reports about at my temple. When we went on alms rounds, we always had a civilian with us to handle any money that was donated. We didn't touch money. We didn't have ipads, ipods, iphone5's, 6's or anything like that. We spent our day either cleaning or in meditation. I don't know what's going to happen to Thai Buddhism but it needs a good cleaning..

[Johpa]

The Thai Christian churches of the Protestant denomination offer a very different approach. I have been in a few of them and the Thai version intentionally avoids the excesses. It explains why a small but growing number of Thais are interested in the Churches which focus on non material activities and emphasize equality and spiritual aspects.

Thai Protestant churches can be commended for their emphasis on equality, but there is a lack of spirituality as the focus is upon belief, which leads to answers to prayer, which often is about material success. It appears to me as an amalgamation of Thai animism with evangelicalism, similar to the amalgamation of Catholicism in South America with the preexisting animism found in than continent.

[MW72]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

All wrong.....here and there, but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this.

Pleasantly surprised to agree with you on this one. At least the first two sentences. Let's see how the third one works out.

This story reminds me of the catholic church in medieval times where indulgences (money) were given for the forgiveness of sins. And I thought Christians believed that only god could judge.

[plachon]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

All wrong.....here and there, but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this.

Ever heard of Henry VIII? Or Martin Luther? Or thousands of others I could mention who have challenged the power and wealth of the Vatican over the years in Europe? Do they not teach history in Greece?

[englishoak]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

[sweatalot]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

All wrong.....here and there, but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this.

Again selective reading by our Greek friend...............

<<But few expect the junta to make much headway against such an entrenched group.<< Quote

I'd have to agree with Costas on this one ... there is zero difference here with regards to religion and money than any other religion anywhere else in the world ...

Agree.

But my reply was to this: but nobody had the guts up to now, to put an end to this., where our Greek friend is indicating that under Mr P things have improved!!

I think Costas is right. Things HAVE improved. Or did you hear about anything against the "chequebook buddhism" under the previous government ?

[khaowong1]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

I think something may have been mis-construed in the translation. My understanding from a friend who not only follows Luang Por Budda Issara but goes to his temple regularly, is that he made a vow to become a Boddhistava. A person who will forgo his going to heaven until every last person on the planet goes first. Which is a high vow indeed. If you can, will you post that interview you read, please.. I would like to pass it to my friend.. thanks..

[nidieunimaitre]

The Thai Christian churches of the Protestant denomination offer a very different approach. I have been in a few of them and the Thai version intentionally avoids the excesses. It explains why a small but growing number of Thais are interested in the Churches which focus on non material activities and emphasize equality and spiritual aspects.

Even in the Thai version of Islam, there is an absence commercial business. No idols, no relics, no payment for indulgences.

Because Jesus himself drove traders and moneychangers from the temple accusing them of turning the temple into a den of thieves.

A truly nice story.

There are thousands of truly nice stories, why did you pick this one?

Personally I prefer the story of Cinderella, but unlike you, I would not dream of mentioning that on a forum.

[nidieunimaitre]

More Thais are wakened to corruption in temples. Many have made it a point to worship and donate only at poor temples now.

Really?

In the THAI buddism subforum, Somebody (note the capital S, I cannot be more clear, we can not discuss Moderaters), anyway, Somebody said that giving alms to BIG monks is better than giving alms to small monks.... His explanation involved ripples in the karma or something similarly mind blowing.

Thailand has that effect on Some...

[manhood]

Thai Buddhism reminds me on the way that the clericals in former time raised money in Europe!!!!!!!!

Tell the uneducated people what's the way to go to heaven and keep them paying!

And ashame to push children in school to do so!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Thats one of the reasons I stay away from all the religions: all a full bullshitting of the people! Best believe in yourself and make yourself happy!

[jollyhangmon]

More Thais are wakened to corruption in temples. Many have made it a point to worship and donate only at poor temples now.

Really?

In the THAI buddism subforum, Somebody (note the capital S, I cannot be more clear, we can not discuss Moderaters), anyway, Somebody said that giving alms to BIG monks is better than giving alms to small monks.... His explanation involved ripples in the karma or something similarly mind blowing.

Thailand has that effect on Some...

... yes it has! The honourable MrY, great scientist and member of this very forum described it as 'Going Full Thai' and i quote under fair use:

"Everybody knows you never go Full Thai. You went Full Thai, man. Never go Full Thai." ‒ Tropic Thailand

[connda]

Your right Connda, Unfortunately, the Dhammakaya are now in charge of the Sangha. I was a Dhammayut monk and didn't see any of these excesses that everyone reports about at my temple. When we went on alms rounds, we always had a civilian with us to handle any money that was donated. We didn't touch money. We didn't have ipads, ipods, iphone5's, 6's or anything like that. We spent our day either cleaning or in meditation. I don't know what's going to happen to Thai Buddhism but it needs a good cleaning..

I ordained last year during the rain retreats. At the wat I stayed at money was handled, celebrated, and made the object of a literal festival. Money trees. Very pretty, but imho, outside the bounds of Vinyana. Money was passed out to all the monks and naen. The monk that was assisting me during my stay brought me money because I didn't 'take' any with me. I smiled, thanked him, put it in a bag, and after I disrobed I gave it back to the wat. I only had ten precepts to follow, but follow them I tried my best to do: Jata Rupa Patikahana Veramani (essentially, don't handle that which can be considered money). It doesn't take a Buddhist scholar to understand the significance of this: it's about letting go of desire. Monks, whether individuals or institutions, who revere and solicite money, in my own opinion, are quite loss in this dualistic universe and are doing nothing but further enmeshing themselves in Maya.

At my wat, pretty much all the naen had iPhones or other electronics. During morning and evening sweeping most had earbuds in listening to.....well, perhaps dharma talks?

But I let that go. It really wasn't my business. My business was to experience the Sangha from the inside and work on my own practice, which is what I did. It was profound, I have immense gratitude for the local Sangha (abbots and senior monks) who allowed me, as a foreigner, to ordain and now back as a layman, the experience has given me structure to my practice and a deeper knowledge and appreciation as to how 'Thai' Buddhism works.

And I argee. It does need a -- house cleaning? But I can work on my own practice undistracted by the peculiarities that define most Thai wats (as opposed to strict Forest Wats). The Dharma is still very much there. It perhaps just needs a bit of a dusting.

Edited April 3, 2015 by connda

[connda]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

I think something may have been mis-construed in the translation. My understanding from a friend who not only follows Luang Por Budda Issara but goes to his temple regularly, is that he made a vow to become a Boddhistava. A person who will forgo his going to heaven until every last person on the planet goes first. Which is a high vow indeed. If you can, will you post that interview you read, please.. I would like to pass it to my friend.. thanks..

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak.

I'd like to see that interview sourced also, even if it's in Thai.

[khaowong1]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

I think something may have been mis-construed in the translation. My understanding from a friend who not only follows Luang Por Budda Issara but goes to his temple regularly, is that he made a vow to become a Boddhistava. A person who will forgo his going to heaven until every last person on the planet goes first. Which is a high vow indeed. If you can, will you post that interview you read, please.. I would like to pass it to my friend.. thanks..

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak.

I'd like to see that interview sourced also, even if it's in Thai.

I asked a friend, Dr. Dion Peoples, who teaches Buddhism at MCU, and here's what he said. "we all have Buddha-nature... we are all a Buddha."

Here is the you tube source of Luang Por Buddha Issara's speech... maybe you can get a different translation..

Buddha Issara you tube.docx

[connda]

I wonder if anyone here is aware that that Issara bloke is now claiming he is actually a new Siddhartha/Buddha.

Nice little interview in Thai at the weekend, the reporter is very surprised to hear issara claiming hes Phra Phuttha Jao. In Thai, translation is “the Venerable Lord Buddha,” or the enlightened one.

Seems to me Buddhism in Thailand is very much in crisis when people like this strut about making such outrageous statements.

I think something may have been mis-construed in the translation. My understanding from a friend who not only follows Luang Por Budda Issara but goes to his temple regularly, is that he made a vow to become a Boddhistava. A person who will forgo his going to heaven until every last person on the planet goes first. Which is a high vow indeed. If you can, will you post that interview you read, please.. I would like to pass it to my friend.. thanks..

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak.

I'd like to see that interview sourced also, even if it's in Thai.

I'm going to expound on that just a little more:

Interesting, that if true, he's following Mahayana tradition, which is a bit confusing. In Theravada, one generates bodhicitta in order to attain enlightenment in this lifetime to benefit all sentient beings. Lighting the way, so to speak. But, not to 'heaven' which is just another existence in the dualistic universe: an existence with a beginning and an end. Buddha didn't teach followers to strive toward heaven; he taught to end suffering by attaining a state of non-dualistic consciousness: Being.

So when I hear of Buddhist institutions conjoling their followers to give money in order to attain a heavenly realm, I start to believe that folks are being led down the garden path. This is no way in line with the core concepts of Buddhism. It debases the fundamental concepts and warps the true teachings. If you've been able to experience these realities, first hand, though years of mediation, it's just evident. For for those who practice morality and meditation only on a limited scale (if at all), it's easy to fall for the rhetoric that you can somehow buy your way to 'heaven' or some other dualistic realm that was never discussed as a goal for attainment by the Lord Buddha, nor the arahants that followed. This money given and money requested paradigm simply spins the cycle of samsara. Buddha didn't say indulge in the cycle of samsara, he said to break out of it. How many people extend generosity without wishing or expecting anything back in return. I do. And it confuses the heck out of my wife and Thai friends. When I tell them that I'm just setting the conditions that may help me also to break the cycle of samsara, most people don't get it. Everyone else is wishing for a lucky lotto ticket.

Edited April 3, 2015 by connda

[Tokay]

Comparing this with the wealth the Vatican and other churches possess in Europe and America, it's not such a big deal.

Also comparing the life style and habits of the clergy in other religions again there is no much difference here.

Yes, it is a big deal. This is supposedly Buddhism. Christianity isn't built upon the same principles.

To have such attachments and do what the Thais do, has nothing to do with what the Buddha taught. Monks (Bhikkhus) are only supposed to have the necessities, and iPhones, TVs, drugs, smokes, booze, designer items, jets, and so on, do not fall into that category. To me, Thai temples look like more of a place for ex-cons to get free meals and a roof over their head, or places to hide, while big business goes on around them and the cash and gold pile up.

[khaowong1]

I think this is the Buddha Issara you tube.. Can someone get their Thai friends or family to interpret please..

https://www.youtube....M9LqfwA&index=1

Edited April 3, 2015 by khaowong1