South Korea bans Thai charter flights, affecting 10,000 passengers

[mango66]

So 3 times you have been checked for nail clippers before boarding fights and you lose the plot?

So you never learnt your lesson the second time, and didn't bother reading the prohibited articles list on your itinary or the security checks I other words you Blame the airline for your own stupidity and lack of knowledge about the rules and regulations on prohibited items.

Yeah okay, maybe a reality check and get your shit together before flying might be a better idea than to spit dummies out??

if you know IATA rules ,

you also will know what is allowed , by IATA rules under which also Thai Airways operates;

You never have any problem with nail clippers if you boarding in Europe or africa !!

I travell global, and thai is only a small part !!

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

As a few posters have noted above, the latest ICAO review of Thailand focused on the country's civil aviation regulator -- the Department of Civil Aviation -- and not on the performance of individual airlines. The flaws that were identified related to how well (or in this case, NOT well) the CAA is carrying out its regulatory and oversight duties regarding Thailand's various airports and airlines.

So, if the Thai government agency responsible for ensuring that the various Thai private airlines are operating correctly and safely isn't fulfilling that regulatory role in line with international standards, then everyone is left wondering just how safe are the Thai airlines??? Like with so many other sectors here, attention to details and compliance with safety regulations are often not hallmarks of Thai government agency performance.

[cookee68]

Well fancy that, Thailand not able to bull shit their way with South Korea of all countries, but hey did they not say Tourism was at a high last week, or was that the Thai bull shit

[Wookie]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

[Tokay]

So thailand is not that special or different.

Maybe, but they seem to have managed to convince the Japanese to allow the flights according to this report.

Japan is temporarily allowing them to fly in. It's not a done deal. I think it's more of the Japanese seeing if the Thais can walk the walk, or if they only talk the talk.

[Tokay]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

That's reassuring.

[NongKhaiKid]

Remember when there was an explosion on a plane Mr. T was about to use and he was screaming bomb, assassination attempt etc ?

It was eventually all down to an ' engineer ' working on the air con who had ignored the maintenance manual and cut corners.

There's a story about the CAD I would like to explain but am, for several reasons, reluctant to say too much.

I have personal experience of people in the air transport industry who failed a CAD exam and couldn't be licensed but didn't lose their jobs or be put on other duties until they passed, they continued on as usual. All i will say it was a very important job within the industry.

[HiSoLowSoNoSo]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

Corrupt people playing Russian roulette with our lives. The day when they open a nuclear power plant in Thailand is the day when I leave the place.

[NongKhaiKid]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

Corrupt people playing Russian roulette with our lives. The day when they open a nuclear power plant in Thailand is the day when I leave the place.

Year ago one of the female directors on a television channel which was re-branded as IN Channel raised this very point. Her attitude was that LoS cannot ever consider nuclear power until corruption is controlled as no matter how stringent the original specs were they would be ignored as corruption kicked in She went on that sub-standard materials and workmanship would be used to make a profit and cover the bribes paid to get contracts and to have the work signed off on.

[webfact]

AVIATION
South Korea bans Thai airlines over safety concerns
THE NATION

BANGKOK: -- SOUTH KOREA has started banning charter flights from Thailand over safety concerns after Thai negotiators from the Civil Aviation Department failed to convince officials to ease restrictions.

A source in the Civil Aviation Department said yesterday that the ban began last Saturday.

A Thai civil aviation team was involved in the first round of talks with South Korean civil aviation authorities last week.

The negotiation centred on the International Civil Aviation Organisation's (ICAO) safety concerns about charter flights operated by Thailand-registered airlines.

"Earlier, South Korea unofficially banned charter flights from Thailand entering the country. But after the negotiation on April 4, the Civil Aviation Department was officially informed of the ban. There will be no relaxing of the restriction like Japan did on April 2," the source said.

The Thai negotiators failed to convince South Korean aviation authorities to ease flight restrictions on Thai airlines after the ICAO voiced safety concerns, according to Civil Aviation Department director general Somchai Piputwat.

Somchai said this would result in charter flights from Thailand being banned from flying to South Korea, starting this month, the public broadcaster Thai PBS quoted him as saying.

The Civil Aviation Department chief said the South Koreans had banned three Thai airlines: Asia Atlantic, Jet Asia and Asian Air.

He said about 10,000 passengers who were scheduled to fly to South Korea or leave South Korea in April would be affected, Thai PBS reported.

Regular flights from Thailand will not be affected although an increase in flights will not be permitted, the Civil Aviation Department chief was quoted as saying.

Despite of the ban, he said, South Korean civil aviation authorities understood the problem faced by Thailand. And the Kingdom will continue to try and persuade the South Koreans to relax the restriction in the same way the Japanese authorities did, he added.

On Friday, Transport Minister Prajin Junthong said that Japan's civil aviation agency agreed to temporarily lift a ban preventing Thailand-registered airlines from operating charter flights to Japan from April 11 to May 31.

The safety concerns were raised in late March during the ICAO's audit of the Civil Aviation Department, which was given a 90-day grace period to comply with international standards.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/South-Korea-bans-Thai-airlines-over-safety-concern-30257521.html

-- The Nation 2015-04-07

[gemguy]

I guess they didn't buy the - "But we're THAI!" line

The relevant safety related Aviation authorities did not buy the: My Ba Lai and My Pen Rai aspect of the Thai negotiation team that is trying to avoid additional costs related to safety compliance........as in maximizing profits naturally supersedes safety issues.

[Cake Monster]

The way that the International Communities are lineing up to ban the Thai charter flights, if I was one of the 10,000 so called affected passengers, I would be eternally grateful that somebody was stepping in to possibly save my life.

And as for the arrogance of the Thai,s, to try and retaliate by banning 2 South Korean Charter Airlines, before realising, ( or being told ) that they were out of order, it,s beyond comprehension.

The Thai Charter Airlines safety is in question, not the South Korean Airlines

[soalbundy]

What exactly are these safety concerns, i have never read anywhere what the specifics are.

[casindonet]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

Pretty much the same with most locally run companies in thailand & cambodia.....

[soalbundy]

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

Pretty much the same with most locally run companies in thailand & cambodia.....

Thanks for that, especially to wookie, i now understand more.

[Jiggo]

I'm really interested to know, what safety measures the Thai planes do not implement.

There must be something really wrong that the Japanese and now the Koreans don't like.

I started thinking if I should ever fly again on Thai planes.

Anybody can help here?

Costas, I'm sure that Thai airlines are operated just as well as Thai railroads, Thai tour buses, Thai highways, and Thai bar fights.

Cheers

Thai railways for sure.....

[Searat7]

I think I can guess which airline was being described and I would not consider flying on this airline in the future

I was a Captain for a Thai airline. The standards for training were very low. The maintenance of the aircraft was very very bad. The "technicians" signed off defects as having been fixed when they weren't. Co-pilots were promoted to Captain because they were Thai even though they were inexperienced and not up to the job. The company also regularly underpaid the staff with total disregard to their contracts

They didn't even arrange work permits. Needless to say I soon left along with most other expats. The airline is now staffed by the guys who can't work anywhere else as nobody will employ them.

It is of no surprise to me that other countries are starting see the light about Thai aviation.

Pretty much the same with most locally run companies in thailand & cambodia.....

[stoffel45]

It's not just South Korea. It's Japan, too. More details than in the thumbnail article that opened this thread here:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/815214-south-korea-bans-thai-charter-flights-affecting-10000-passengers/?utm_source=newsletter-20150406-1438&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=news

http://asia.etbtravelnews.com/246815/thai-statement-regarding-icao/

Here is the official Thai statement.

My wife and daughter booked Thai in July - will lose the ticket if I cancel - but I am now REALLY worried.

Just reading this "defence" with lots of sugary promises - is awful.

What I want to read is that THAI have brought in a professional Airline - B.A. Lufthansa, Swiss - to oversee their "safety".

[Nobb]

Thailands sins will come back to haunt them!

[soalbundy]

Look on the bright side Thailand, the ban has probably saved a few lives and an aircraft, at least for now.

Edited April 7, 2015 by soalbundy

[Foxxster]

The CAA in Australa is also adding more inspections of Thai Airways flights as well as liaising with Thai aviation officials regarding their CAA safety issues.

[PeCeDe]

I for one am in full agreement of safety first, if the Captain thinks the plane is unsafe, he shouldn't fly it, regardless of what his boss says, there are too many lives, families, loved ones etc. at stake. Several times I have flown in to Manila only to land in Clark airforce base because the weather is too stormy at MNL, and was amazed to here the moaning and crying, and angry curses because they were going to miss their connecting flight etc.... Too bad. Pretty much the same time the tragedy hit the Lufthansa (German Wings) flight that crashed into the French Alps an Air Canada flight flew into Halifax in very bad weather, and he landed the aircraft 360 meters before the runway, taking out the airports main radar system plus his landing gear and just about destroyed the aircraft... There were I think about 190 people aboard, all escaped, but thanks to that Rodeo Captain, and his orders almost 200 people could have been killed, and maybe thousands of family members affected. We are fortunate modern aircraft have so many safety systems, that all those people were saved in what could have been a deadly accident. If there's any Flight Captains out there listening, you're the boss, not your boss... And I for one will take almost any inconvenience for safety first.

[shaggy28303]

I'm really interested to know, what safety measures the Thai planes do not implement.

There must be something really wrong that the Japanese and now the Koreans don't like.

I started thinking if I should ever fly again on Thai planes.

Anybody can help here?

Not so much point taking the piss out of the Thais but more important to concentrate on the real cause of the problem.

Seems we are talking about airspace and airport parking , they said regular flights are ok but charter flights meaning extra flights would probably constrain the Korean airport

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Seems you ought to try actually reading the news issue you're talking about...before talking:

The UN International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO) reported “significant safety concerns” with Thailand’s air safety practices last week. The negative report may prevent some flights from coming out of the kingdom and forced Thailand’s government to deal quickly with the results on Monday.
.............................................

Some media reports Monday said that in the review by ICAO, Thailand passed only 21 out of 100 areas. This mean Thailand’s overall score was lower than any other ASEAN nation.

Critics have said there are many reasons for the problems in Thailand's civil aviation sector. Among these are frequent changes of government and corruption.

ICAO concerns

Industry sources said the most serious concerns involve weaknesses in safety regulations for low-cost airline companies. These include permission to operate flights and to move dangerous goods.

http://learningenglish.voanews.com/content/un-agency-questions-thailands-air-safety/2700345.html

And also:

Thailand faces sanctions over negative review by ICAO

Published: 01/04/2015 - Filed under: News »

Thailand has received a negative review by the UN’s International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO), which means the country’s airlines face bans on their international flights.

In its review, the ICAO noted that there were “significant safety concerns” with Thailand’s aviation sector, including personnel failing to meet international standards and a lack of governing regulations.

http://www.businesstraveller.asia/asia-pacific/news/thailand-faces-flight-bans-over-negative-review

[Maeklong]

I'm really interested to know, what safety measures the Thai planes do not implement.

There must be something really wrong that the Japanese and now the Koreans don't like.

I started thinking if I should ever fly again on Thai planes.

Anybody can help here?

Not so much point taking the piss out of the Thais but more important to concentrate on the real cause of the problem.

The problem is not really with the airlines like Bangkok Air, AirAsia, Nok Air or Thai Airways, etc. (the exception is 1-2-Go). Nobody wants to lose a plane. It's bad for business. In most cases, plane crashes are the result of pilot error more often than mechanical failures.

Airlines have a number of tasks to perform to ensure safety and its DCA's job is to perform oversight (audit) on everything the airlines do. Are aircraft inspected on schedule, at the right intervals? Are problems reported and corrected, parts replaced on schedule, did flight systems inspections show any anomalies in operation? Are pilots properly trained and retrained? Do pilots log more hours in the cockpit than permitted by international regulations? DCA has to check all that, and more.

Basically, DCA was working with a 1990's budget and 1990's staffing, but all of the political turbulence in Thailand over the last decade meant that the government and politicians were too distracted to pay much attention. In Thailand, the bureaucrats in almost every Ministry dealt with all of the political turbulence by doing nothing. They were afraid that their next master (maybe the return of their past master) wouldn't like what they had done with the previous administration, so might punish them.

At ICAO's last audit of DCA in 2005, they were warned that there were going to be problems. I'm sure the government was warned that with the overall expansion of air travel, and the arrival of low cost airlines there was going to be a big expansion in airlines, pilots, flights, planes to inspect, and the government needed to invest in expanding DCA's capability. However, there was nothing newsworthy, no emergency, and no money to be made on DCA's budget, so they ignored the DCA.

ICAO had two problems with DCA. One was that the airline licensing authority should not also be the agency doing oversight/audit of the airlines; it was a conflict of interest. The Thai Govt. announced a couple of weeks ago that they had split the two functions.

DCA didn't have the budget to hire more staff or train them properly. Without enough budget and staff, DCA was behind in performing audits of airlines operations, because they did not have enough staff, and the staff were not properly trained (new aircraft means more training). Catch-22 situation. So you could expect a scenario like this - ICAO comes in and audits DCA, and sees that a DCA inspector signed off on a maintenance report of an Airbus A-380, but the auditor never received any training about the A-380. Would you trust that the DCA auditor had the skills to judge whether the airline had performed correct maintenance? ICAO didn't, and if ICAO publishes a report that says just that, why would Japan, Korea, etc. etc. not believe there was a problem and take action?

That's where the problem is, and why this problem can't be solved overnight. DCA has to find a lot of properly-trained new staff, and short of hiring an outside foreign contractor to do DCA's work in the short term, there's going to be a delay until DCA can satisfy ICAO's requirements. So the Government is galavanting around trying to convince foreign governments that the Airlines themselves are trustworthy, that they all have properly trained pilots and maintenance staff, that they take service and maintenance seriously, that they all have ISO 9001, so do regular internal audits and yearly external audits with independent auditors.

With a major airline like Thai Airways they are well known and have a history. However, when you talk about low-cost airlines, the first question to ask is - how do they lower costs? They are expanding, buying new planes, have a high debt load....so are they skimping on staff/training/maintenance/using uncertified spare parts? Is there anyone checking to make sure that low-cost airlines are not cutting costs this way? That's DCA's job, and that was not being done to ICAO's satisfaction. Was somebody being bribed to sign approvals even if there were problems found? I'm sure ICAO had doubts, if not proof, of that.

Japan and Korea have contracts with Thai airlines to permit scheduled flights and landing slots, for registered aircraft. They have fallen back to providing what they are legally obligated to do without breach of contract. But no charter flights which are extraneous to signed contracts, and no new aircraft and no substitution of aircraft outside of aircraft that have been registered. Whether other countries decide to take action or not, I think they are taking a wait and see attitude, depending on what steps they see the current government taking to fix DCA's problems.

If airlines don't take care of their planes properly, planes crash. There haven't been any crashes. Air Asia and some other low-cost airlines in the region all have fleets of the newest late-model planes, and it the long time players like Thai that have lots of aging aircraft. The odds are that mechanicals are more likely to occur on those old planes. I don't have any fears about flying any of the main players in the Thai airline industry, and neither should anybody else. Driving on a Thai highway, any day or time is much more risky.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I think your post above here is pretty sensible overall, and a fair evaluation of what's going on at the government levels of things.

But, as for the individual Thai airlines:

If airlines don't take care of their planes properly, planes crash. There haven't been any crashes. Air Asia and some other low-cost airlines in the region all have fleets of the newest late-model planes, and it the long time players like Thai that have lots of aging aircraft. The odds are that mechanicals are more likely to occur on those old planes. I don't have any fears about flying any of the main players in the Thai airline industry, and neither should anybody else. Driving on a Thai highway, any day or time is much more risky.

Not sure I buy into those assessments. The individual Thai airlines hardly have spotless safety records, and there's certainly enough there to have some concern about:

--the Thai Air jet that exploded and burned on the tarmac at Don Mueang in 2001, fortunately mostly unoccupied with only one fatality.

--the One-Two-Go jet that crashed and burned with substantial loss of life at Phuket in 2007, with the accident investigation pointing to many failures.

--the Thai Air jet that had its landing gear collapse after landing at Suvarnabhumi in 2013, and led to the infamous airline logo blacking out debacle.

--the 1987 crash of a Thai Air jet off Phuket that killed everyone onboard, with the investigation blaming pilot error.

--the Thai Air jet that crashed in Nepal in 1992 killing all onboard, with the investigation blaming both air crew and controller errors.

--the Dec. 2014 crash with all crew and passengers lost of an Indonesia AirAsia jet (albeit not Thai AirAsia).

--and a handful of recent Thailand runway mishaps involving Thai and NokAir, if I recall correctly, where the jets went off the runways and into the dirt.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Rough-landing-for-Nok-Air-flight-30216462.html

The Associated Press had an interesting article the other day talking about the somewhat precarious state of air safety in Southeast Asia, which those quoted in the article attributed to fast growth of the local airline industry that perhaps has outpaced both safety and regulatory structures.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_ASIA_AVIATION_TURMOIL?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

A third of airplane accidents in the Asia-Pacific region from 2008 to 2012 "involved deficiencies in regulatory oversight," the International Civil Aviation Organization said in a report this year. Another 27 percent involved "deficiencies in safety management."

Edited April 9, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK