Refusal of Family Visitor Visa

[PeeJay1959]

I'm hoping someone can help us. We applied for Tia to have a visitor visa and were refused, the above images I hope show the letter.

I am remedying not seeing her by visiting next month for 2 weeks, the Skype records are easy enough, but it is her shop that is the problem. It's a typical Ma and Pa shop handed down to her, there is no paperwork and it is a cash only business, the parents still own the house and she still lives there. It wasn't a problem when we applied before, but now they seem to have made this the main issue, how can we deal with this?

Thanks in advance

Pete and Tia.

[wooloomooloo]

Did your girlfriend provide bank statements evidencing a regular income from her business?

The problem with visa applications is that once you've made a statement then you're required to back it up evidentially.

Address the points of refusal in the next application and your girlfriend will most likely succeed. It's not too harsh a refusal to be honest.

[bigyin]

It seems to me (and I am happy to be corrected on this) that the main reason for refusal is the lack of evidence of an ongoing and subsisting relationship. The ECO is almost bound to think it odd that you haven't met in person for 18 months. The last time was easy because you had just married and there was no history of long periods apart. This application was, in my opinion, quite different and was almost bound to be refused. The shop is an extra issue because you mentioned it. The Thai applicant doesn't have to have any money or source of income but does need to display a good reason to return. On that basis the shop is I suppose just such a reason so all you can really do is be perfectly honest about that. Does Tia have a bank account? If so as stated above copies of statements showing monies going in would be good but I suspect that she either doesn't or if she has, not much of the money gets that far. This is Thailand and money evaporates very quickly. All you can really do is explain the situation and if possible provide corroboration from 3rd parties. But for me the big issue is the one of lack of regular contact as would be considered the norm for married couples. I think any future application needs to explain in some detail why you meet so infrequently despite being married. You need to provide firm evidence to convince the ECO that you have a genuine and subsisting relationship and that Tia will return to Thailand at the end of the trip.

[PeeJay1959]

I'm flying out there on the 2nd of May, so that should help. The reason we haven't met more often is following a period of unemployment I wasn't able to get skilled work and had used up my savings on the wedding and her trip here. The visit to her 2 years ago was largely financed on a credit card. Now I have better work and hence can afford my trip this year.

The shop is a problem, as I mentioned it is a cash only business, literally a bucket at the back of the shop where the money goes in and out each day, it's only a very small village, she effectively works 14 hours a day 7 days a week, but proving it is hard, she does have a bank account, but you're right little or no money reaches it. I send her money each month on a cash card, but that gets drawn out to pay her car loan, the shop pays all the families' living expenses.

We want her to come here to practice her English, she's failed KET twice, and as the only English speaker in her village she doesn't get any chance to practice except our weekly Skype calls, and then her connection is often too bad to talk.

I guess all we can do is for: 1) me to go there, 2) print off our Skype records, 3) explain in more detail about her shop and the way it operates, maybe a few photos of it. Of course we did and will again mention not wanting to jeopardise any future applications.

Pete and Tia

[bigyin]

I think photos of the shop perhaps with explanations of what they show is a good idea. I also think give them all the detail about the very valid reasons you mention for not seeing each other so often. From what you have said I think it is just a question of really making sure the ECO understands about the shop and about your personal circumstances. Good luck with the next application.

[wooloomooloo]

We want her to come here to practice her English, she's failed KET twice...

My friend's wife failed six times before her pass. Don't give up and private tuition is always an option.

[bigyin]

The KET involved both reading and writing English which made it difficult for Thai speakers but I understand from another thread that the new test only involves speaking and listening. If you succeed with the next visitor visa application a better bet might be to take the Trinity test in the UK which is only about 10 minutes long, I believe. She would not, however, be able to study for the test whilst in the UK.

[Heng]

The funds need to be cycled in and out of the bank. The powers that be 'like' to see cash flow... even in cases where there are virtually no savings.

Edited April 13, 2015 by Heng

[bigyin]

The funds need to be cycled in and out of the bank. The powers that be 'like' to see cash flow... even in cases where there are virtually no savings.

The Thai applicant does not need to have any money in a bank or otherwise. Between them the applicant and the sponsor need to show that the visit can be paid for without recourse to public funds, that they have a genuine and subsisting relationship and that the applicant will return to Thailand at the end of the trip. If you can show these then you will get a visitor visa (to the UK anyway) without needing to do anything with bank accounts. The ECO is only really interested in those 3 things.

[durhamboy]

Peejay, actually I have been following your posts both in this forum and another one. As I understand it (and please correct me if I am wrong) the root of your wife's visa problems is that she hasn't been able to pass the English test for settlement. If she had passed then you would most likely be applying for settlement rather than a visit visa. Your case is further complicated because your wife has been a victim of the change of rules and approved providers of the English test. In fact, again as I understand it, your wife passed the BULATS test only to be told that that provider was no longer valid.

You therefore have my sincere sympathies in being affected in such an unfair way by this shambles of an English test system.

Ok, if what I have said is correct. I would suggest that in your next visit visa application you set out the circumstances of Tia's nightmare with the English test and say that that is why you have spent very little time together because you were both working towards satisfying SV rules - you satisfying the financial regs and Tia the English test.

I think the shop is a bit of a red herring although the visit visa was refused for failing to give a valid reason to return. So in your letter impress upon the ECO that the reason for Tia coming to the UK is, apart from you spending time together, to pass the English test. Then she will return to Thailand to apply for the SV.

Good luck.

[7by7]

With respect, it seems to me that you acted in this application on the premise that as she had been successful before, she will be this time and so didn't need to provide as much evidence as last time.

Unfortunately, as you discovered, that is not the case.

Although a previous successful application, and compliance with the rules, can have a positive effect; essentially each application is judged on it's own merits.

Whatever evidence you provided last time should, if still relevant, have been provided again this time; only up dated, of course.

You say the shop was accepted as a reason to return last time. Did you provide any evidence of her ownership with that application?

She has a bank account, she has a car loan. Did she provide evidence of this in this application?

Did you provide evidence of the money you send her and explain what it is for?

Did you explain why you had not visited her for 18 months? Presumably it was due to your employment difficulties and the financial situation they led to; which also meant you couldn't meet the financial requirement for settlement.

The GV51 says "As evidence of your relationship you have submitted pages of emails which appear to relate to (deleted by you) and (deleted by you). There is no other evidence of any ongoing contact." What is the significance of the deleted phrases? From the ECOs wording they appear to relate to the subject of the emails; which makes me wonder what that was and why the ECO did not accept them as evidence of your relationship.

There is no right of appeal, so all you and she can do is gather as much up to date evidence as you can, covering every aspect, and apply again.

In your sponsor's letter for any new application you should explain why you did not visit her for 18 months.

I would not mention that she intends to take the A! test while in the UK as a visitor. Although doing so would not breach the conditions of a her visa, studying for it would; you don't want the ECO to think she may be doing that.

[durhamboy]

I think Peejay should tell the ECO that his wife intends to take the English test. Firstly it is the truth and secondly, as you say, that doesn't conravene visa rules. Probably a good idea to say she won't be studying here as you suggest.

I think the deleted phrases you referred to are just the names of Peejay and his wife. No doubt he can confirm this.

[PeeJay1959]

Yes Durhamboy you are correct in all your assumptions, she did indeed pass Bulats a year ago, about the same time as I landed a new job above the £18,600 threshold, we thought it would be all plain sailing from there on in, well as plain as it ever is, just wait 6 months to satisfy the income requirement and go for SV. I didn't go over there straight away, as already mentioned, the visit nearly 2 years ago now was funded largely by my credit card so that had to be paid off. Also you're correct that we were working in our efforts and me saving money for the SV.

7x7 yes I have blanked out our names from the email statement, but I think they had a concern that the name on Tia's address is actually that of her mother, in Thai script, again this was not a problem before when we submitted emails, so I didn't explain the name discrepancy in my covering letter, something I'll obviously do, though why I'd send 1000+ emails to her mother, seems very petty to me.

When I visit next month we'll see if there is any way we can beef up her situation re the shop. We are also going to see if there is any way she can study English that is not too far from her. Her English can't be that bad, I understand her and we are able to have relatively normal conversations without resorting to google translator or the pocket dictionary I carry just in case and my understanding is A1 is pretty easy, after all she did pass Bulats, even got A2 on some of it so she can't be that far off. I'm tempted to get her to take the new IELTS and see if she passes. Also I've got a Rosetta Stone CD to take out there with me and will install that on her laptop, it's an interactive CD that can be set for just speaking and listening, so she can work on that if she gets free time.

We will not be beaten by this!!!!

Pete and Tia

[Heng]

The funds need to be cycled in and out of the bank. The powers that be 'like' to see cash flow... even in cases where there are virtually no savings.

The Thai applicant does not need to have any money in a bank or otherwise. Between them the applicant and the sponsor need to show that the visit can be paid for without recourse to public funds, that they have a genuine and subsisting relationship and that the applicant will return to Thailand at the end of the trip. If you can show these then you will get a visitor visa (to the UK anyway) without needing to do anything with bank accounts. The ECO is only really interested in those 3 things.

It does seem like they care if they mentioned the lack of evidence of financial independence in paragraph 2. Of course they probably can't come right out and say 'you can't eat love, you'll be a burden on our country's infrastructure,' because then it'd be a really short two sentence refusal letter.

:-)

[bigyin]

I cannot see where the ECo has stated that the applicant should be financially independent. They do not have to be but if a source of income is mentioned then it needs to be supported with evidence which the applicant here didn't really do. Either the applicant or the sponsor has to be able to clearly demonstrate that they can fund the trip without recourse to public funds. That is really the only financial element to the application. As stated by me and others here the prime reason for the rejection was the lack of contact between them and the concern that it was not a genuine and subsisting relationship. The shop is useful as an indication that Tia would return to Thailand but having failed to explain the circumstances of the shop then it just added to the ECO's doubts about the whole application. I wouldn't want anyone to read this thread and worry unnecessarily about moving money in and out of bank accounts as it is definitely not necessary.

[7by7]

Indeed, Bigyin.

Heng, the applicant has to show that sufficient funds are available to them to fund the visit. These funds can come from the applicant, their sponsor(s) if any, a third party(ies) or any combination of these.

Obviously, whoever is contributing toward the cost of the visit needs to show that they have the funds to do so, and if a third party they should also say why they are doing so.

No mention is made of affordability in the GV51, so I assume that this was covered in the application. If not, it must be in the next one.

In my opinion the mention by the ECO of the lack of financial evidence with regard to the shop is more to do with using the shop as a reason to return.

[7by7]

,snip>

7x7 yes I have blanked out our names from the email statement, but I think they had a concern that the name on Tia's address is actually that of her mother, in Thai script, again this was not a problem before when we submitted emails, so I didn't explain the name discrepancy in my covering letter, something I'll obviously do, though why I'd send 1000+ emails to her mother, seems very petty to me.

You made the mistake of assuming that the ECO would know that emails addressed to one person were actually for another. never assume anything in a visa application; even if it worked in a previous one.

A simple explanation of why this was so in your covering letter would have dealt with this.

To be honest, I find it difficult to understand why your wife is using her mother's email account, and has been for at least 18 months; surely it would have been a simple thing to set her up with one of her own?

<snip>

Her English can't be that bad, I understand her and we are able to have relatively normal conversations without resorting to google translator or the pocket dictionary I carry just in case and my understanding is A1 is pretty easy, after all she did pass Bulats, even got A2 on some of it so she can't be that far off. I'm tempted to get her to take the new IELTS and see if she passes.

A1 is very basic, see here. As she communicates with you in English and has previously passed the BULATS test, then she should have little difficulty in passing the IELTS one.

From what you say, you do now meet the financial requirement for settlement. If so, then if she does pass then my advice would be to forget about another visit application and go for a settlement one; assuming you can afford the fee plus the NHS surcharge, that is.

This would, of course, remove any reason to return worries, though you would still need to show that your relationship was genuine and subsisting.

[bigyin]

Tia failed the KET twice and I am guessing it was the written and writing parts that threw her if she can communicate satisfactorily with you. The KET was not easy because of the problems in having to read English to answer some of the listening questions. So A1 is easy if there is no reading and writing aspects and in this respect it would appear that the new IELTS test is only speaking and listening and really quite short. The KET was a monster in terms of the time taken. On that basis 7by7's advice is sound but as he says the real problem might be the cost. The visa is about £1000 and then there is the £500 health surcharge and the new rules which mean the visa is initially only for 30 days to get to the UK and then 10 more days to get the Biometric Residence Card. Visitor Visa would be much cheaper and she could do the Trinity test in the UK but you would still have to bite the bullet in the end and pay for the settlement visa plus surcharge. There is a lot to think about but good luck whatever you decide.

[durhamboy]

Peejay - please be careful in assuming that A1 English is very easy and basic. There are many pitfalls concerning these tests which have been gone into at length in other topics. Respected members such as 7by7 should not be saying (as he continually does) that it is very basic and that your wife should have little difficulty in passing the IELTS exam. Neither he, nor his wife, have any practical experience of the A1 English Test.

From your past experience of it I'm sure you and your wife know more than any of us that it is not easy.

[7by7]

the new rules which mean the visa is initially only for 30 days to get to the UK and then 10 more days to get the Biometric Residence Card.

This is being slowly rolled out worldwide, with the aim of being in force everywhere by July.

I can't find anything to say when it will begin in Thailand, but until it does the old system of issuing a visa valid for 33 months and then applying for FLR after living in the UK for 30 months will apply to applicants from Thailand.

Until UKVI make an official announcement regarding Thailand, I guess the only way of knowing is to check the validity of the visa when received.

See this topic for more details.

[bigyin]

Yes I worried about this when I put in my wife and step daughter's applications at the very end of February. Visa was granted valid from 12 June under the old rules so you can still post date the visa application. I must say that I am happier with being able to post date for 3 months then have 3 months to get to the UK. I don't know whether it will still be possible to post date the visa under the new roles...if not 30 days is not long to transport a family half way round the world.

[7by7]

Peejay - please be careful in assuming that A1 English is very easy and basic. There are many pitfalls concerning these tests which have been gone into at length in other topics. Respected members such as 7by7 should not be saying (as he continually does) that it is very basic and that your wife should have little difficulty in passing the IELTS exam. Neither he, nor his wife, have any practical experience of the A1 English Test.

From your past experience of it I'm sure you and your wife know more than any of us that it is not easy.

A1 is basic; did you not read the link?

Can understand and use familiar everyday expressions and very basic phrases aimed at the satisfaction of needs of a concrete type.

Can introduce him/herself and others and can ask and answer questions about personal details such as where he/she lives, people he/she knows and things he/she has.

Can interact in a simple way provided the other person talks slowly and clearly and is prepared to help.

I grant you that a Thai who has absolutely no English at all will not be able to achieve this without some considerable work. But surely even you can see that any Thai who is able to communicate with their Anglophone sponsor in basic English should be able to reach this level with little effort.

As the OP has said that in her previous test his wife achieved at least A1 in her previous test, and A2 in some aspects, then she should have no difficulty in doing so again; provided she practices beforehand, of course.

You are very fond of saying that we have no experience of this test as my wife did not have to sit it.

You are correct in saying that she did not have to sit it; but she did sit a similar test anyway.

When she first came to live in England one of the first things she did was enrol on a part time English course, where she was assessed and graded at ESOL entry level 1, which is equivalent to A1. By the end of the course, one school year, she had progressed to ESOL entry level 3, equvilent to B1, in speaking, listening, reading and writing.

[bigyin]

I don't want to get in the middle of 7by7 and durhamboy here but the KET was not easy at A1 level for all the reasons stated in other threads. There was a reading element to even the listening part as the Thai applicant had to read the multi choice questions. Vantage Siam made the whole process extremely stressful as they continually stressed the importance of all 4 parts of the test. They made no allowance whatsoever for the requirements for a visa application. In my view it is beyond dispute that this was not an easy test and required far more than 'very basic phrases'. It shouldn't have been, I agree, but it was and I was there for the whole day of my wife's test. Tia achieved A1 in Bulats but she failed the KET twice so this says something about that test and the way it was administered by Vantage Siam. The new test is, I believe, purely speaking and listening and so then I agree totally that A1 should be easy. By way of further clarification I looked at the Trinity B1 test in the UK and I am sure my wife could pass that now or certainly would within a short time in the UK and it looked no harder than the KET A1 test.

[7by7]

I don't want to get in the middle of 7by7 and durhamboy here but the KET was not easy at A1 level for all the reasons stated in other threads. There was a reading element to even the listening part as the Thai applicant had to read the multi choice questions. Vantage Siam made the whole process extremely stressful as they continually stressed the importance of all 4 parts of the test. They made no allowance whatsoever for the requirements for a visa application. In my view it is beyond dispute that this was not an easy test and required far more than 'very basic phrases'. It shouldn't have been, I agree, but it was and I was there for the whole day of my wife's test. Tia achieved A1 in Bulats but she failed the KET twice so this says something about that test and the way it was administered by Vantage Siam........

Which is the fault of the test provider in Thailand, Vantage Siam, who for their own, no doubt financial reasons, insisted on candidates taking reading and writing as well as speaking and listening.

As had been confirmed by UKVI and the embassy, the score achieved in reading and writing was irrelevant, even if it meant no actual pass certificate was issued. Though I doubt that Vantage Siam made this clear to candidates so can understand the stress they felt.

Unfortunately, it appears that the new test providers in Thailand will also insist on candidates taking reading and writing as well (see this topic) but we will have to await a report from someone who has actually taken it to be sure.

As there is (yet another) current topic on English testing running, can we restrict further comments on that aspect to there and not drag this one further away from the OP's intention; advice on his wife's refusal?

[bigyin]

I agree, but as you mention it, it was not the fault of Vantage Siam that the candidates had to take the reading and writing elements. This was the KET as handed down by Cambridge School of English. Vantage Siam did not control the test so my point is still valid. The test covered all 4 elements with an overall score for all the elements not scores for individual parts. I do agree, however, that the way the test was administered was down to Vantage Siam. I shall say no more on this point on this thread as I agree that it has been well covered in other threads and we all have our opinions.

[PeeJay1959]

Big Yin, if Tia does come here on a visitor visa it is still IELTS she has to take, the UKVI state that Trinity is only for those applying from within the UK, ie FLR, unless it's changed again. I had originally planned for her to take that after failing KET, but the rules have changed again so I'm now favouring her taking IELTS in Thailand. The money saved from her making the visit here can be used for tuition there if necessary. I am financially able to pay for SV and NHS surcharge, as well as the plane fare, so it would hopefully save time as well as money, but I have my concerns, I was just reading another post where someone failed Trinity having lived in the UK for 2 years.

7x7 I have looked at IELTS and they now have a skills for life test which only tests speaking and listening:-

http://www.ielts.org/test_takers_information/ielts_in_the_uk/what_is_ielts_life_skills.aspx

I guess we are at the spearhead of this so I think I'll get Tia to take IELTS in Thailand and see what happens, but it's very dis-heartening for her to keep failing, not to mention me and as mentioned it would take away the need to prove reason for return. The contact issue shouldn't be a problem, I'll just explain about the email address and provide Skype/MSM records, I do have plenty it's just a case of finding a way to concisely represent them and not destroy an entire rain forest.

Pete and Tia

[bigyin]

Doing the test in Thailand and trying to do it all in one go seems like the right choice. Are you sure about not being able to take the Trinity test if in the UK on a visitor visa? I had always assumed that the statement that Trinity was for inside the UK and IELTS for outside simply meant that you could not take a Trinity test in Thailand but if you were in the UK you could take the test (but not study for it). Perhaps someone more knowledgeable than me could just clarify this for us as perhaps I am not the only person not 100% sure.

[7by7]

7x7 I have looked at IELTS and they now have a skills for life test which only tests speaking and listening:-

http://www.ielts.org/test_takers_information/ielts_in_the_uk/what_is_ielts_life_skills.aspx

I guess we are at the spearhead of this so I think I'll get Tia to take IELTS in Thailand and see what happens

It certainly seems from their website that they will test only speaking and listening; which is a vast improvement on the old system where the test providers in Thailand insisted on candidates taking reading and writing as well, even though this was not a UKVI requirement.

but it's very dis-heartening for her to keep failing

Sorry? I thought from what you said before that she had only taken it once and passed and the only reason she needed to take it again was that her previous test provider, BULATS, was no longer on the approved list.

If the intention is for her to settle in the UK and you now meet the requirements for that, apart from the English test, I see no reason to go the expense of a UK visit just to take the English test there.

The contact issue shouldn't be a problem, I'll just explain about the email address and provide Skype/MSM records, I do have plenty it's just a case of finding a way to concisely represent them and not destroy an entire rain forest.

Remember that you do not need to include the contents of emails, Skype, MSN messages etc., only evidence that the communication has taken place. That should save a tree or two!

Bigyin,

from what it says on the list, it seems that whilst Trinity tests can only be taken in the UK, they can be used for overseas applications.

The following are the lists of approved secure English language tests and test centres that have been assessed as meeting the Home Offices requirements from 6th April 2015. Anyone taking a test on or after 6th April 2015 that they intend to use in a UK immigration application must take one of the tests listed in table 1 at one of the approved test centres in table 2 or table 3. Table 1 also details the CEFR level and minimum grade requirements for each level.

Table 2 lists test centres in the UK, table 3 those overseas. But as you can see, there is nothing to say a test taken in the UK cannot be used in an overseas application.

Edited April 15, 2015 by 7by7

[durhamboy]

7by7 - see Peejay's post of 13th. April - his wife failed KET twice after having passed BULATS.

Another reason why you should not keep saying that A1 English is easy to pass although I agree that if IELTS are just offering speaking and listening then that is a big step in the right direction.

[7by7]

Apologies; I missed that.

Although he does go on to say that she has not had much opportunity to practice her English since passing the BULATS test, partly at A2; if you don't use it, you lose it.