Hundreds of migrants feared drowned off Libya

[webfact]

Survivors tell aid group some 400 migrants drowned off Libya

ROME (AP) — Survivors of a capsized migrant boat off Libya have told the aid group Save the Children that an estimated 400 people are believed to have drowned. Even before the survivors were interviewed, Italy's Coast Guard said it assumed that there were many dead given the size of the ship and that nine bodies had been found.

The coast guard had helped rescue some 144 people on Monday and immediately launched an air and sea search operation in hopes of finding others. No other survivors or bodies have been recovered.

On Tuesday, Save the Children said its interviews with survivors who arrived in Reggio Calabria indicated there may have been 400 others who drowned.

The U.N. refugee agency said the toll was likely given the size of the ship.

The deaths, if confirmed, would add to the skyrocketing numbers of migrants lost at sea: The International Organization of Migration estimates that up to 3,072 migrants are believed to have died in the Mediterranean in 2014, compared to an estimate of 700 in 2013. But the IOM says even those estimates could be low. Overall, since the year 2000, IOM estimates that over 22,000 migrants have lost their lives trying to reach Europe.

Earlier Tuesday, the European Union's top migration official said the EU must quickly adapt to the growing numbers of migrants trying to reach its shores, as new figures showed that more than 7,000 migrants have been plucked from the Mediterranean in the last four days.

"The unprecedented influx of migrants at our borders, and in particular refugees, is unfortunately the new norm and we will need to adjust our responses accordingly," the EU's commissioner for migration, Dimitris Avramopoulos, told lawmakers in Brussels.

More than 280,000 people entered the European Union illegally last year. Many came from Syria, Eritrea and Somalia and made the perilous sea journey from conflict-torn Libya.

European coast guards have been overwhelmed by the numbers. As the weather has begun to warm, even more people have been fleeing conflict and poverty for better lives in Europe.

Of the 7,000 migrants saved in the Mediterranean since Friday, "over 3,500 are still on board rescue vessels and being taken to Italy and so far, 11 bodies were recovered," EU migration spokeswoman Natasha Bertaud said.

Meanwhile the EU's Frontex border agency said that people smugglers trying to recover a wooden boat that had been carrying migrants had fired shots into the air to warn away a coast guard vessel.

The incident on Monday happened some 60 nautical miles off the coast of Libya after an Italian tugboat and the coast guard ship came to the rescue of 250 migrants.

The coast guard vessel was already carrying 342 migrants from a previous rescue.

It's at least the second incident of this kind, raising concern for the safety of rescue workers and migrants alike.

Late next month, Avramopoulos is expected to unveil a new EU strategy aimed at tackling the migrant wave.
___

Raf Casert in Brussels and Nicole Winfield in Rome contributed to this report.

-- (c) Associated Press 2015-04-15

[pkspeaker]

Great so that attack on the secular regime of mohmar khadafy continues to pay dividends, now isis and millions of muslims invading europe.. 'NATO' needs to be disolved, the us/israeli owned regimes in europe need to be overthrown.

[Pete Beale]

It's being reported that muslims on another migrant boat heading to Italy threw Christians overboard. Religion of peace eh, lovely people.

[emilymat]

This whole issue is a tragedy, and I cannot see how it can be resolved.

On the one hand, you cannot let people just drown offshore. But, by saving them and letting them in to Italy it just creates an ever increasing flow that will last for years and decades.

This is not a cheap shot, but I can see why UKIP, in the UK, have gained such support for controlled immigration along the lines of Australia.

How the local Italians are coping with this I cannot think. It's like thousands arriving daily on the Isle of Wight and they cannot be sent back to their own countries.

[Credo]

<snipped>

How the local Italians are coping with this I cannot think. It's like thousands arriving daily on the Isle of Wight and they cannot be sent back to their own countries.

I think they give them a sandwich and send them on their way North.

[JDGRUEN]

So - they must flee Libya... and the only route is the sea... SURE ... Yeah Right.... .

Let's see the nations that border Libya are... Egypt, Sudan, Chad, Niger, Algeria, Tunisia ... beyond that there is South Sudan, Nigeria and Mail ... Plus ... an additional 18 African Countries...

BUT - they have to risk life and limb to hop a risky boat and go to Italy ... Why not Greece, Spain or Turkey?

So - of at least 30 reachable nations -- more than half reachable by Bus or Train -- the refugees HAVE TO GO TO Italy...

Not ONE of those 27 African countries would let them in as a refugee - is that right?

Tragedies happen but ignorance seems as much of the cause as anything else.

Something is very deliberate here... or a lot of people are just plain stupid.

[JockPieandBeans]

Another one today

A major rescue operation is under way after a boat carrying up to 700 migrants capsized off the coast of Libya

http://news.sky.com/story/1467920/boat-carrying-700-migrants-capsizes-off-Libya

@ JDGRUEN

Something is very deliberate here... or a lot of people are just plain stupid.

Correct. It is called £ 750. The going rate from Libya to Italy.

Sorry, I can no longer find the link to that particular story.

[Chicog]

They are economic migrants and they should be sent back.

This should be the stated policy and it should be advertised throughout Africa and the subcontinent.

[Scott]

People arriving should be screened to determine if they are refugees. It should at least be a cursory review. I am reasonably sure the vast majority are economic migrants and a quick return is usually in everyone's best interest.

[Chicog]

People arriving should be screened to determine if they are refugees. It should at least be a cursory review. I am reasonably sure the vast majority are economic migrants and a quick return is usually in everyone's best interest.

I don't think they should even be allowed to arrive.

It just encourages more to try.

Just send them back.

[Yahooka]

They are economic migrants and they should be sent back.

This should be the stated policy and it should be advertised throughout Africa and the subcontinent.

Yes they are...............except for the useless journalists here in Scandinavia who deliberately calls them "refugees".

[MUSTYJACK]

They are economic migrants and they should be sent back.

No they are not.

They are fleeing the violence, lawlessness, brutality and the total breakdown of civilization as their countries (Sudan, Libya, Somalia,Nigeria, Iraq, Syria, Yemen etc.etc) become the battlefields where al qaeda, isil and all the other islam nutjob factions attempt to fill the vacuum left by the revolutions and foreign interventions of the past 20 years.

They have nowhere to go other than Europe, and I think we are just seeing the beginning of this exodus. The gangmasters that offer hope by trafficking these unfortunates are just the descendents of the African slave traders who happily rounded up and sold their brothers and sisters to Europeans and Americans 300 years ago.

Africa has always been a poisoned land, and never more so since Islam has replaced the common sense and relative order that colonialism brought to the continent and really it should be stripped of its humans and turned into one huge nature reserve and animal sanctuary where they can roam free and unmolested, but what to do with all the Africans eh??

Edited April 19, 2015 by MUSTYJACK

[Scott]

Fleeing conflicts does not necessarily make you a refugee. Many people from conflict zones are displaced until the fighting is over. Refugees face persecution for specific reasons. I would tend to believe that most of the people that are leaving are economic migrants. Many of those facing persecution can receive protection and assistance from the UN in countries closer to home, but not all. That is the reason they need to be screened.

Chicog is partially correct. There are two factors that affect this type of behavior. First is the push factor, which can be persecution or poverty and the second is the pull factor, which can be easy access to a country, jobs, money etc.. Europe has a lot of pull factors which make it a very desirable location.

The sad truth is that ignoring all the problems that people face means a lot of deaths. This is just the start. Of the many thousands of Vietnamese who fled toward Thailand, upwards of 40% died at sea, with most being killed by pirates.

The current situation is not good for Europe or those trying to reach its shores.

[Mr Somtam]

It says a lot about the other African countries where they could go to much more easily. Why do european countries have to help all of them, there are a lot of countries in de vicinity that could help...

[Steely Dan]

They are economic migrants and they should be sent back.

This should be the stated policy and it should be advertised throughout Africa and the subcontinent.

Yes they are...............except for the useless journalists here in Scandinavia who deliberately calls them "refugees".

And in Sweden many pose as children in order to get in easier, the government refuses to even carry out age checks, the whole thing is a disgrace for the hapless Swedish taxpayers to endure.

http://swedenreport.org/2015/04/14/sacrificing-1000-to-save-1/

Edited April 19, 2015 by Steely Dan

[MUSTYJACK]

Many of those facing persecution can receive protection and assistance from the UN in countries closer to home, but not all. That is the reason they need to be screened.

where would you suggest a Libyan, Somalian, Nigerian or Syrian heads for then.

[Bwanatickey]

Congo, democratic Republic of Congo.

[JDGRUEN]

Italy should petition the EU for funds to commission about 6 older Cruise Ships ... have them anchor 30 miles off the coast of Italy - have tender boats receive the 'refugee' ships. Take all aboard ... deny them any possibility of touching land and claiming rights ... screen them - treat them for illness ... feed them ... fingerprint them - and take DNA samples -- computerize with photos, etc. Then set sail with a fleet of tender boats to back to Libya -- ferry them back to shore with a backpack of food and medicine ... then leave go back - get another load... then REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT ... until they get the message... Go somewhere in AFRICA...

Edited April 19, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[arjunadawn]

Italy should petition the EU for funds to commission about 6 older Cruise Ships ... have them anchor 30 miles off the coast of Italy - have tender boats receive the 'refugee' ships. Take all aboard ... deny them any possibility of touching land and claiming rights ... screen them - treat them for illness ... feed them ... fingerprint them - and take DNA samples -- computerizes with photos, etc. Then set sail with a fleet of tender boats to back to Libya -- ferry them back to shore with a backpack of food and medicine ... then leave go back - get another load... then REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT ... until they get the message... Go somewhere in AFRICA...

Yes, but does this accomplish no more than throwing a bone to opposition politicans? I ask because in the US a similar mechanism is in place and time after time they come across until successful and there is no penalty for repeated attempts. Of course now its so transparently a fraud that they allow this in irrespective of backgrounds or previous attempts. If your suggestion was an integral policy move, great. I just note such efforts have been little more than bandaids to silence political opposition at home. I fear the glue of nationalism becoming undone, which is the goal in this worldwide demographics shift. It is being orchestrated at the highest levels of governments as social enginnering. The underlying premise is the simple revelation that all the world cannot be brought up to the standard of living of the US and EU, therefore the living standards of the EU and US must necessarily be lowered for parity to be achieved. I believe this as surely as I believe the sky is blue (in daytime).

[emilymat]

Not only do we have Africans pouring into Europe via Italy, we also have Africans driving other Africans out of their country, sending them up north. Talking obviously about south Africa.

I cannot but help remembering my history lessons at school regarding human life originally developing in the rift valley (Kenya? Mozambique?)and spreading out across Europe and Asia.

This seems to be the nightmare that is now evolving once again, except we are talking about millions in a few years.

Please do not think I have no sympathy for those people suffering all the turmoil in that continent, but major problems are being stoked up for decades to come. No wonder the Italians are calling for an urgent meeting of EU foreign ministers to try and tackle the problem.

The 'gang masters' who are running this must be rubbing their hands with pleasure every time a new or existing conflict emerges or increases.

The future for the younger generation looks grim to me.

[NeverSure]

Italy should petition the EU for funds to commission about 6 older Cruise Ships ... have them anchor 30 miles off the coast of Italy - have tender boats receive the 'refugee' ships. Take all aboard ... deny them any possibility of touching land and claiming rights ... screen them - treat them for illness ... feed them ... fingerprint them - and take DNA samples -- computerizes with photos, etc. Then set sail with a fleet of tender boats to back to Libya -- ferry them back to shore with a backpack of food and medicine ... then leave go back - get another load... then REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT ... until they get the message... Go somewhere in AFRICA...

Yes, but does this accomplish no more than throwing a bone to opposition politicans? I ask because in the US a similar mechanism is in place and time after time they come across until successful and there is no penalty for repeated attempts. Of course now its so transparently a fraud that they allow this in irrespective of backgrounds or previous attempts. If your suggestion was an integral policy move, great. I just note such efforts have been little more than bandaids to silence political opposition at home. I fear the glue of nationalism becoming undone, which is the goal in this worldwide demographics shift. It is being orchestrated at the highest levels of governments as social enginnering. The underlying premise is the simple revelation that all the world cannot be brought up to the standard of living of the US and EU, therefore the living standards of the EU and US must necessarily be lowered for parity to be achieved. I believe this as surely as I believe the sky is blue (in daytime).

This is a very false premise. The way the US and EU prospered was by creating new wealth. To believe that there is a finite amount of wealth available is to ignore what happened in the US and the EU.

The economically deprived countries are that way because they don't embrace economic freedom and the rule of law.

Third world countries which do embrace western economic models are called "developing countries" or "developed countries." To fail to understand this is to fail to be able to explain why Indonesia or Taiwan or Hong Kong are different from Cambodia.

Most of our ancestors fought for freedom and the rule of law, and the laws were based on the Magna Carta. Even the US has a structure based on this and on English law.

The people of the US had a Revolutionary War and a Great Civil War and the people paid dearly for the current system. Which of these African peoples have done that?

When a person can explain how oil can be turned into plastic, the plastic turned into a blank CD, and then how Bill Gates can turn that blank CD into $200 he will understand about creating new wealth. This can happen only where the people demand economic freedom and the rule of law.

[JockPieandBeans]

Not only do we have Africans pouring into Europe via Italy, we also have Africans driving other Africans out of their country, sending them up north. Talking obviously about south Africa.

I cannot but help remembering my history lessons at school regarding human life originally developing in the rift valley (Kenya? Mozambique?)and spreading out across Europe and Asia.

This seems to be the nightmare that is now evolving once again, except we are talking about millions in a few years.

Please do not think I have no sympathy for those people suffering all the turmoil in that continent, but major problems are being stoked up for decades to come. No wonder the Italians are calling for an urgent meeting of EU foreign ministers to try and tackle the problem.

The 'gang masters' who are running this must be rubbing their hands with pleasure every time a new or existing conflict emerges or increases.

The future for the younger generation looks grim to me.

I think it would be more pertinent to say that the future is beginning to look grim.

Islamic State (IS) militants have released a video purportedly showing the killing of up to 30 Ethiopian Christians in Libya.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-32373166

To me the West has 2 options.

1. Do nothing. Things will continue to get steadily worse and untold innocents will die and suffer.

2. Wipe this scum off the face of the Earth with all guns blazing. Untold innocents will STILL die and suffer.

In both cases. Guess who is going to get the blame ? The West.

As my old man used to preach to me. If you are going to get the blame, make sure its worth getting the blame for.

[NeverSure]

The horse has already bolted. Muslims (yes these are Muslims) not only are immigrating to Europe at an astonishing rate, but they are out-breeding the traditional residents at an alarming rate.

While the traditional residents are having a shrinking population due to deliberate low birth rates, the Muslim population is intent on having big families while they also immigrate. Just give that two more generations and Europe as we know it will be gone.

I'm glad I won't be around in 30 years to see Europe.

[Scott]

Off-topic posts and replies removed.

[Steely Dan]

Here is an article about growing Italian opposition to the invasion of culture enrichers.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/04/the-reality-of-obamas-opaque-foreign-policy/#more-36079

[NeverSure]

Here is an article about growing Italian opposition to the invasion of culture enrichers.

http://gatesofvienna.net/2015/04/the-reality-of-obamas-opaque-foreign-policy/#more-36079

That was an interesting comment - something to the effect that Italy can have a war even if they don't show up for it. My generation of useful idiots liked the phrase "Suppose They Gave a War and No One Came."

It doesn't work that way in the real world but then those people don't live in the real world.

[JDGRUEN]

Italy should petition the EU for funds to commission about 6 older Cruise Ships ... have them anchor 30 miles off the coast of Italy - have tender boats receive the 'refugee' ships. Take all aboard ... deny them any possibility of touching land and claiming rights ... screen them - treat them for illness ... feed them ... fingerprint them - and take DNA samples -- computerize with photos, etc. Then set sail with a fleet of tender boats to back to Libya -- ferry them back to shore with a backpack of food and medicine ... then leave go back - get another load... then REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT ... until they get the message... Go somewhere in AFRICA...

Replying to my own post ... One direct result of my plan as politically unfeasible as it is ... at some point the futility of trying to cross in boats would cause people not to risk their lives ... and they would find some other place in Africa to go - regardless whether that would be desirable to them or not. Send leaflet drops with information -- that they will be picked up only a short distance from the Libyan coast and returned after screening and medical treatment and nutrition assistance.

Also I amend my suggestion - other ships of the EU should pick the 'refugees' out of the sea -- 30 miles off the Libyan Coast and take them to the retrofitted Cruise Ships ... and proceed as I suggest... Stop the drowning of these people ... equip them to find a way in Africa ...

Off course the crazy DO-GOODERS would have a field day ... screaming at the tops of their lungs how inhumane this plan would be... Socialist - Leftist who WANT the EU nations to be flooded with the poor and needy and with Muslims who will demand Christian Nations change to ISLAM..

Edited April 20, 2015 by JDGRUEN

[canman]

Italy should petition the EU for funds to commission about 6 older Cruise Ships ... have them anchor 30 miles off the coast of Italy - have tender boats receive the 'refugee' ships. Take all aboard ... deny them any possibility of touching land and claiming rights ... screen them - treat them for illness ... feed them ... fingerprint them - and take DNA samples -- computerizes with photos, etc. Then set sail with a fleet of tender boats to back to Libya -- ferry them back to shore with a backpack of food and medicine ... then leave go back - get another load... then REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT ... until they get the message... Go somewhere in AFRICA...

Yes, but does this accomplish no more than throwing a bone to opposition politicans? I ask because in the US a similar mechanism is in place and time after time they come across until successful and there is no penalty for repeated attempts. Of course now its so transparently a fraud that they allow this in irrespective of backgrounds or previous attempts. If your suggestion was an integral policy move, great. I just note such efforts have been little more than bandaids to silence political opposition at home. I fear the glue of nationalism becoming undone, which is the goal in this worldwide demographics shift. It is being orchestrated at the highest levels of governments as social enginnering. The underlying premise is the simple revelation that all the world cannot be brought up to the standard of living of the US and EU, therefore the living standards of the EU and US must necessarily be lowered for parity to be achieved. I believe this as surely as I believe the sky is blue (in daytime).

"The underlying premise is the simple revelation that all the world cannot be brought up to the standard of living of the US and EU, therefore the living standards of the EU and US must necessarily be lowered for parity to be achieved. I believe this as surely as I believe the sky is blue (in daytime)."

As recently as 3 years ago I would have put a statement such as this in the conspiracy theory pile. No more, it has become self evident that this is indeed the agenda of the left, look where the EU has been heading and look where Obama has being steering the USA, it can no longer be denied.

[Scott]

As nice as some of these plans are, you do need to be aware that many of the people are not Libyan and Libya is under no obligation to take them back. Even if they are Libyan, the gov't there may ask for proof. That is where a lot of these plans fall apart.

Even during the exodus of people from Vietnam, many were ethnic Chinese and when were screened out as genuine refugees, the Vietnamese refused to take them back because they were ethnic Chinese (many of whom had been expelled and resettled in China) and China refused and wanted proof that they were Chinese.

Countries need to tow a tough line, but there are no easy solutions...at least none that won't contravene international human rights laws.

[simple1]

As nice as some of these plans are, you do need to be aware that many of the people are not Libyan and Libya is under no obligation to take them back. Even if they are Libyan, the gov't there may ask for proof. That is where a lot of these plans fall apart.

Even during the exodus of people from Vietnam, many were ethnic Chinese and when were screened out as genuine refugees, the Vietnamese refused to take them back because they were ethnic Chinese (many of whom had been expelled and resettled in China) and China refused and wanted proof that they were Chinese.

Countries need to tow a tough line, but there are no easy solutions...at least none that won't contravene international human rights laws.

A current example of where a government is refusing to accept back those who have been assessed as economic refugees are the Iranians. The Oz Foreign Minister is in Iran trying to reverse the Iranian policy for hundreds of Iranians held in Oz , so far without success. I do not know what, if any, abuse of returness occurs in Iran.