Seeking recommendation for lawyer/firm specialising in recovering land/house from a Thai

[darren1970]

It's easy to search through a list of lawyers in Chiang Mai and visit them one by one for a legal opinion. But never having dealt with any of these firms, I don't know if the advice they are giving is more in their interests or mine. I suppose it might be safe to assume that the lawyer who gives me the least chance of success is the most trustworthy but they could also be the most inept.

So; a) if you have had personal experience (or know someone who has) with recovering land/house from a Thai after a relationship has ended and; you used a lawyer that performed to your satisfaction, then I would appreciate your recommendation.

[worgeordie]

Whose name is the house in ?, if not yours,you maybe wasting more

money than it looks like you already have,by engaging a lawyer.

regards worgeordie

[realthaideal]

There was one guy who posted here about 3-5 yrs back who won his case after a huge plot of land, custom house n many millions of baht - originally in pounds went poof when divorce time came. I eventually ended up meeting the ex by strange circumstances in the local hi-so scene and never let on that I knew about her past.

From what I saw over the last few yrs, is that the place was up for sale since even before the decision, and without any buyers, the whole resort-like property was defacto hers. So that kind of gets towards enforceability, even if a judgement is made in your favor.

You might search a bit more for it - headline was something like "Justice Received of Justice Served," though my memory could be off. If you find the thread, pm him to find out the lawyer's name and what happened in the end.

Best of luck.

[Oscar2]

There was one guy who posted here about 3-5 yrs back who won his case after a huge plot of land, custom house n many millions of baht - originally in pounds went poof when divorce time came. I eventually ended up meeting the ex by strange circumstances in the local hi-so scene and never let on that I knew about her past.

From what I saw over the last few yrs, is that the place was up for sale since even before the decision, and without any buyers, the whole resort-like property was defacto hers. So that kind of gets towards enforceability, even if a judgement is made in your favor.

You might search a bit more for it - headline was something like "Justice Received of Justice Served," though my memory could be off. If you find the thread, pm him to find out the lawyer's name and what happened in the end.

Best of luck.

well not really, no divorce as no marriage. but as i heard from a reliable source, a very large settlement was entered into with she getting something like 12 million Baht if the place ever sold which i don't think it did - as you said.

it's an uphill battle. maybe don't waste your money on a lawyer. chok dee na

[mr chow]

Unfortunately this person does not exist in the kingdom. Chok dee!

[Beetlejuice]

If a farang is in a relationship (not officially married) to a Thai woman and he finances land or real estate in her name or any Thais name on his girlfriend`s behalf, and there were no legal agreements, for example a document stating that the money was given on loan, then in fact that is regarded as given as a gift.

In Thailand common law spouses are not recognised under the law, which means unmarried couples are considered totally different entities and do not have the same statutory rights to make claims against each other as do legally married couples.

Hiring the services of a reputable lawyer for such cases that have little or no chance of being successful and could also drag on for at least 4 years, will cost $$$$$$$$$$$ and no guarantees of a desirable outcome.

As regarding finding a reputable lawyer, there are some advertised here on Thai visa, in fact there are two Siam Legal ads staring me right in the face at this very moment as I type out this post.

[darren1970]

Thanks for replies so far. Please PM if you don't want to reply in the forum.

I didn't post any of the details of the situation, because I didn't want the topic to sidetrack into into a discussion of the specifics of my situation. To restate my purpose; I'm looking for people who believe that their lawyer made a difference and allowed for the recovery of some or all of the assets.

I'll say this much, because it might help people to understand why in my case legal action might be helpful:

The person in question stated categorically, in writing, on several occasions that the properties really belonged to me (from a moral standpoint) and that they would return all of them. They even drew up and sent me a formal agreement (to be signed and witnessed) to transfer the properties to a nominee on a specific date, so long as I paid off their personal bank debt (which I did). However, they did not follow through on the agreement.

[bangmai]

I only went to Business School, but it seems that a contract requiring the other party to do something illegal (using a nominee to purchase property), would not be enforceable. At best case, you might get the debt pay-off back, but it may not be worth admitting you were gaming the system.

I have worked with some excellent RE Attorneys at ICO. They have an office sort of near Thai Airways Old City office.

Edited April 17, 2015 by bangmai

[cardinalblue]

A few years back my British neighbor not married put the house in his GF mother's name..yes dumb but kept all his records Nd the judge awarded him the house giving him one year to sell...

The judge asked the GF to show proof whose money she bought the house with which she couldn't...

I recall he spent a million in legal fees but sale of the house even at less market value was far greater than his legal costs...

He got lucky but the judge did the correct thing. She had a bad financial history previously...

CB

[Beetlejuice]

A few years back my British neighbor not married put the house in his GF mother's name..yes dumb but kept all his records Nd the judge awarded him the house giving him one year to sell...

The judge asked the GF to show proof whose money she bought the house with which she couldn't...

I recall he spent a million in legal fees but sale of the house even at less market value was far greater than his legal costs...

He got lucky but the judge did the correct thing. She had a bad financial history previously...

CB

You make a good point, that in many cases the outcome can depend on the discretion of the judge.

I advise the OP to contact, Siam Legal, that are advertised on here. Not had any experience with Siam Legal and don`t know anyone who has, but according to their ads, they seem highly experienced dealing with ex-pat matters in Thailand. There is nothing to lose by phoning them.

Website looks very impressive:

http://www.siam-legal.com/thai-law/chiang-mai-lawyer.php?gclid=CJLfpKLg_MQCFRYPjgod_R4A3w

[JulieM]

Google "Sumalee lawyer Chiang Mai." Her web site appears to be down at the moment. She is the best in town from what I have seen and heard. She helped me with some legal stuff but it was a much easier problem than the one you have.

I have also heard (but do not know) that if the Thai person in question can't show where they got the $$ from, you may indeed be successful getting justice.

If you can't find a way to contact Khun Sumalee send me a PM. I may have a business card around somewhere.

[JulieM]

I should add that I would expect most lawyers would give you a free consultation to outline your case. Charges begin if they think you have a case which can be won. If they feel you do not have a case, they will simply tell you that. I could be wrong.

[sappersrest]

These guys may be able to help you

Web site is a bit out of date, They helped with my house "purchase" hope they can help you.Good luck with your quest.

http://www.lawyerchiangmai.com

[junglechef]

Unfortunately this person does not exist in the kingdom. Chok dee!

As I try to be an optimist I hope there are at least some compentant and honest lawyers here but as they most probably are few and far between I hope they are working on important cases like human rights issues etc (nothing against the OP or his problem)

Though hindsight isn't any help I think that paying back her debts and not having the property signed over at the same time was a huge mistake, would you pay for a house or car and not leave with the title (esp. here!), but I assume the OP realizes he needs some help out of this mess now and hope he is looking in the right place

As for a member advising to contact a particualar law office with no expericene with them or even had heard of any but based solely that thier ads look like they are "highly experienced" (what did you expect them to write) and twice for that matter I would not take that too seriously. Same goes for the one who said they don't know and could be wrong about thier advise.

Sorry I can't be of more help OP and wish you good luck!

[manarak]

Thanks for replies so far. Please PM if you don't want to reply in the forum.

I didn't post any of the details of the situation, because I didn't want the topic to sidetrack into into a discussion of the specifics of my situation. To restate my purpose; I'm looking for people who believe that their lawyer made a difference and allowed for the recovery of some or all of the assets.

I'll say this much, because it might help people to understand why in my case legal action might be helpful:

The person in question stated categorically, in writing, on several occasions that the properties really belonged to me (from a moral standpoint) and that they would return all of them. They even drew up and sent me a formal agreement (to be signed and witnessed) to transfer the properties to a nominee on a specific date, so long as I paid off their personal bank debt (which I did). However, they did not follow through on the agreement.

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

[junglechef]

In defense of the OP I dont think he is asking for legal advise and perhaps doesn't want to divulge more personal information then he has chosen to already.

He wrote:

"if you have had personal experience (or know someone who has) with recovering land/house from a Thai after a relationship has ended and; you used a lawyer that performed to your satisfaction, then I would appreciate your recommendation."

And in a later post:

"I didn't post any of the details of the situation, because I didn't want the topic to sidetrack into into a discussion of the specifics of my situation. To restate my purpose; I'm looking for people who believe that their lawyer made a difference and allowed for the recovery of some or all of the assets

[Beetlejuice]

Thanks for replies so far. Please PM if you don't want to reply in the forum.

I didn't post any of the details of the situation, because I didn't want the topic to sidetrack into into a discussion of the specifics of my situation. To restate my purpose; I'm looking for people who believe that their lawyer made a difference and allowed for the recovery of some or all of the assets.

I'll say this much, because it might help people to understand why in my case legal action might be helpful:

The person in question stated categorically, in writing, on several occasions that the properties really belonged to me (from a moral standpoint) and that they would return all of them. They even drew up and sent me a formal agreement (to be signed and witnessed) to transfer the properties to a nominee on a specific date, so long as I paid off their personal bank debt (which I did). However, they did not follow through on the agreement.

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

He does not need to be more specific about his situation on an open forum and would not advise it, being that making comments regarding this issue in the public domain could jeopardise his case and be used as evidence against him. The less said for the present, the better. As for what documentation is in possession of the OP, is to be discussed with a lawyer, not with unknowns on the Internet.

My son is a Thai lawyer in Bangkok, but his office mostly deals with Thai criminal cases.

I have no idea regarding the reputation of Siam Legal, but as I mentioned previously, nothing lost by giving them a call or any of the lawyers quoted here by some posters.

[darren1970]

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

I have had quite a few recommendations for lawyers both here and especially via PMs so I'm happy to answer your questions:

First, are/were you married or not with the person ? No. Dated for 2 years and lived together engaged for 1 year

Second, whose names are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ? One property (house) is a Chanote (in her name), the other is small piece of land that can only be transferred as Chanote (in her name) in about 5 years.

Third, what documentation do you have? Emails still on Gmail servers that she cannot deny came from her, stating she will return ALL my properties because she knows how hard I worked to earn the money.

Formal agreement. It was not signed because I was not in Thailand when she sent it to me. However I have witnesses that knew this agreement was put into action because they mediated it. She had 3 properties of mine at the time and she transferred the first one on the list to a nominee. I was then told I had to pay off the debt, which I did. After the debt was paid, she refused to transfer any more properties.

The excuses she gives for keeping the remaining properties is that she lost face in the community because everyone knows she lived with a man outside of marriage OR I promised her parents Sin Sot money and gold and that after we had lived together, it was the same as being married and therefore I had to pay Sin Sot anyway. Of course neither of these claims has any legal basis.

[manarak]

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

I have had quite a few recommendations for lawyers both here and especially via PMs so I'm happy to answer your questions:

First, are/were you married or not with the person ? No. Dated for 2 years and lived together engaged for 1 year

Second, whose names are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ? One property (house) is a Chanote (in her name), the other is small piece of land that can only be transferred as Chanote (in her name) in about 5 years.

Third, what documentation do you have? Emails still on Gmail servers that she cannot deny came from her, stating she will return ALL my properties because she knows how hard I worked to earn the money.

Formal agreement. It was not signed because I was not in Thailand when she sent it to me. However I have witnesses that knew this agreement was put into action because they mediated it. She had 3 properties of mine at the time and she transferred the first one on the list to a nominee. I was then told I had to pay off the debt, which I did. After the debt was paid, she refused to transfer any more properties.

The excuses she gives for keeping the remaining properties is that she lost face in the community because everyone knows she lived with a man outside of marriage OR I promised her parents Sin Sot money and gold and that after we had lived together, it was the same as being married and therefore I had to pay Sin Sot anyway. Of course neither of these claims has any legal basis.

Ok, Darren, this is useful information.

First, I would forget about calling the properties "yours". They are in her name, it's irrelevant if you paid for them , they are indeed gifts.

BUT: there is a deal to transfer the properties to you if you paid off her bank debt, and she didn't fulfill her part, so this is FRAUD.

My opinion is that you are in a position to prove the deal, with the Gmail account and with the witnesses.

Also, the fact that a property was transferred to a nominee is already proof too.

So my take on this is that you don't need a property lawyer - because you won't be able to argue who is the legal owner of the properties, but you need a fraud lawyer to argue in court that she committed fraud.

Since fraud is criminal, Beetlejuice's lawyer son in BKK might be the right person to ask about it.

[MESmith]

Google "Sumalee lawyer Chiang Mai." Her web site appears to be down at the moment. She is the best in town from what I have seen and heard. She helped me with some legal stuff but it was a much easier problem than the one you have.

I have also heard (but do not know) that if the Thai person in question can't show where they got the $$ from, you may indeed be successful getting justice.

If you can't find a way to contact Khun Sumalee send me a PM. I may have a business card around somewhere.

Friend of mine used her for his divorce here. He nicknamed her "rotweiller" in reference to the the way she went for his ex's jugular...

There was no property involved, but he was well pleased with her work.

[JulieM]

Google "Sumalee lawyer Chiang Mai." Her web site appears to be down at the moment. She is the best in town from what I have seen and heard. She helped me with some legal stuff but it was a much easier problem than the one you have.

I have also heard (but do not know) that if the Thai person in question can't show where they got the $$ from, you may indeed be successful getting justice.

If you can't find a way to contact Khun Sumalee send me a PM. I may have a business card around somewhere.

Friend of mine used her for his divorce here. He nicknamed her "rotweiller" in reference to the the way she went for his ex's jugular...

There was no property involved, but he was well pleased with her work.

I remember your post about that incident. Priceless. Indeed Khun Sumalee is one hard nosed woman.

Edited April 17, 2015 by JulieM

[arunsakda]

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

I have had quite a few recommendations for lawyers both here and especially via PMs so I'm happy to answer your questions:

First, are/were you married or not with the person ? No. Dated for 2 years and lived together engaged for 1 year

Second, whose names are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ? One property (house) is a Chanote (in her name), the other is small piece of land that can only be transferred as Chanote (in her name) in about 5 years.

Third, what documentation do you have? Emails still on Gmail servers that she cannot deny came from her, stating she will return ALL my properties because she knows how hard I worked to earn the money.

Formal agreement. It was not signed because I was not in Thailand when she sent it to me. However I have witnesses that knew this agreement was put into action because they mediated it. She had 3 properties of mine at the time and she transferred the first one on the list to a nominee. I was then told I had to pay off the debt, which I did. After the debt was paid, she refused to transfer any more properties.

The excuses she gives for keeping the remaining properties is that she lost face in the community because everyone knows she lived with a man outside of marriage OR I promised her parents Sin Sot money and gold and that after we had lived together, it was the same as being married and therefore I had to pay Sin Sot anyway. Of course neither of these claims has any legal basis.

It sounds as if you may have a chance under a fair magistrate recovering control of one or more of your assets.

Though generally valid as long as they are reasonable, equitable and conscionable the reason oral contracts are looked on warily is that they are always difficult to enforce. eMails and the testimony of third parties is evidence, but how can a court look upon these land parcels as being transferable to alien control, which is never valid. You admitted to cohabitation under a promise to wed. This may be held as valid legal claim to one or more of your assets in compensation.

Is she open to a mediated settlement, perhaps for the payment of an additional gratuity?

Edited April 18, 2015 by arunsakda

[darren1970]

Darren, you need to be more specific about your situation, especially about what documents/proof you really have.

First, are/were you married or not with the person ?

Second, whose name are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ?

Third, what documentation do you have? What is the exact written form of the promises made to you? Is it a paper letter, an email or an SMS, chat message ???

You say "they drew up and sent you a formal agreement to be signed" - well, has it been signed, and do you have it?

Can you prove you paid off the bank debt, for example through receipts or bank transfers?

I have had quite a few recommendations for lawyers both here and especially via PMs so I'm happy to answer your questions:

First, are/were you married or not with the person ? No. Dated for 2 years and lived together engaged for 1 year

Second, whose names are the properties in ? Does a chanote exit ? if not, what land title class is it ? One property (house) is a Chanote (in her name), the other is small piece of land that can only be transferred as Chanote (in her name) in about 5 years.

Third, what documentation do you have? Emails still on Gmail servers that she cannot deny came from her, stating she will return ALL my properties because she knows how hard I worked to earn the money.

Formal agreement. It was not signed because I was not in Thailand when she sent it to me. However I have witnesses that knew this agreement was put into action because they mediated it. She had 3 properties of mine at the time and she transferred the first one on the list to a nominee. I was then told I had to pay off the debt, which I did. After the debt was paid, she refused to transfer any more properties.

The excuses she gives for keeping the remaining properties is that she lost face in the community because everyone knows she lived with a man outside of marriage OR I promised her parents Sin Sot money and gold and that after we had lived together, it was the same as being married and therefore I had to pay Sin Sot anyway. Of course neither of these claims has any legal basis.

Ok, Darren, this is useful information.

First, I would forget about calling the properties "yours". They are in her name, it's irrelevant if you paid for them , they are indeed gifts.

BUT: there is a deal to transfer the properties to you if you paid off her bank debt, and she didn't fulfill her part, so this is FRAUD.

My opinion is that you are in a position to prove the deal, with the Gmail account and with the witnesses.

Also, the fact that a property was transferred to a nominee is already proof too.

So my take on this is that you don't need a property lawyer - because you won't be able to argue who is the legal owner of the properties, but you need a fraud lawyer to argue in court that she committed fraud.

Since fraud is criminal, Beetlejuice's lawyer son in BKK might be the right person to ask about it.

Thanks for this idea. I think I have to look into this as a possible solution.