Debit cards in Thailand

[Danbit]

I have debit cards from Kasikorn and SCB, both have the option with virtual credit card. Kasikorn limit 30.000,- SCB limit 20.000 at SCB you just move the 20.000 to the virtual card.

In hotel I expect you can use the debit plast card.

[Tywais]

When I got my Bangkok Bank Be1st Visa debit card I had a list of options to choose from to activate for the card including online and POS processing. Maybe as simple as going in to the bank and ask them to activate the features you wish.

[JimGant]

For example, anytime I use a U.S. debit card to withdraw funds from a Bangkok Bank ATM, the ATM will automatically ASK me if I want my withdrawal amount shown in U.S. dollars.

John, is that new? It's been several months since I popped my Schwab Debit/ATM Visa card into a BB ATM machine. But back then, it didn't ask ask anything about US dollars..... Also, Visa, at least at one time, didn't allow DCC for ATM transactions (except for EU issued Visa cards). Was your transaction using a MasterCard/Cirrus card?

*Visa currently allows DCC at ATMs only in its Visa EU region on Visa EU issued cards. MasterCard allows DCC at ATMs globally on all MasterCard issued cards. (Date on this unknown.)

And talk about perverse..... Australia's competition agency (ACCC) set out to prosecute Visa for limiting competition by -- you ready? -- not allowing DCC for Australian merchants and ATM owners!

"....from at least October 2007 to February 2013, Visa banned Australian acquirers and DCC providers from offering DCC services to operators of ATMs in Australia.............. Visa implemented and maintained rules that prohibited the further expansion of the supply of DCC services on point-of-sale transactions on the Visa network by rival suppliers." http://www.claytonutz.com/publications/news/201303/05/a_strong_line_the_accc_takes_a_swipe_at_visa.page

So, essentially, the ACCC was saying that Visa was being anti-competitive for NOT allowing Ozzie merchants and ATM owners to gouge their foreign customers with crummy (DCC) FX rates. Their rationale is, I guess, with this statement:

"Visa receives less revenue when a consumer chooses DCC than when they use Visa’s own back-office currency conversion systems."

And maybe they do, based on this statement :

When a USD purchase or ATM transaction is done in a foreign country, is it subject to the Visa inter-national transaction fee?

Yes, transactions made in USD in foreign countries are subject to a Visa International Service Assessments (ISA) of .80% of the transaction amount (compared to the 1.0% Visa fee on transactions made in foreign currencies.)

But why would Visa allow a system (DCC) that costs them money -- if the cardholder opts to use it? Why not just charge 1% for all foreign transactions.... (and maybe they now do -- the above quote is a couple years old)

Wonder what happened to the ACCC lawsuit....?

[ALFREDO]

The OP is very misled as to how credit cards work. In general, one should NEVER use a debit card online. 1: In the USA, the bank liability for debit card fraud is much less than for credit card fraud. 2: You don't pay interest on credit card purchases as long as you pay off the charge when it is due, i.e. monthly. 3: Credit card disputes are a bit less painful than debit card disputes because with a debit card, the money is out. with a credit card you haven't paid anything yet. 4: All my credit cards offer at least 1% cash back or 2% merchandise discount or free gift cards at major stores. So I charge literally everything, earn the reward points, get the freebies and of course pay my credit card balances to Zero.

Please think from the unfortunate guys who cannot afford a Credit Card anymore, no GLORY DAYS.

So I use very well a BANGKOK Bank Debit card, I asked in my small branch to prepare the card for Internet Flight Ticket ect purchases to.

Had than also to make myself some adjustments online and with mobile phone - Secure code verfied by Visa,

get a Code to my mobile number and with that code the transaction works well.

On some Websites same ThaiLionAir you have to klick payment by Credit Card and than the system accepts my Debit card. lol

Edited April 18, 2015 by ALFREDO

[ALFREDO]

I personally prefer to use the credit cards

I get an SMS when I do.

Why did I need to get a CC...... for on-line purchases, primarily flights !

I have only a Bangkok Bank Debit card,

I get an SMS to, without that code the system does not work

I purchase also online flights even a flight to EU with SWISS Airline

and other things online, Hotel bookings ect.,

No need for a Credit Card, which I could not afford in the moment anyway.

[ALFREDO]

Me thinks the OP's wife experienced a miscommunication regarding her question. I've lost count the number of times over the years my Thai wife has asked question to a bank or govt agency, then relayed the answer to me in English, I then said that don't sound right, ask again but ask it this way, and finally we got to an answer I could believe....and many times the answer was what I was expecting but needed the confirmation. Then my wife gets pissed for while in how the whole question (and re-question) and answer process went....she just hates it when I say that can't be right...let's ask again...ask it this way.

You so right,

Thai is a very difficult =flowery= language, that is also the problem when you try to translate

Thai - other language with Google translate or thai2english Websites.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

For example, anytime I use a U.S. debit card to withdraw funds from a Bangkok Bank ATM, the ATM will automatically ASK me if I want my withdrawal amount shown in U.S. dollars.

John, is that new? It's been several months since I popped my Schwab Debit/ATM Visa card into a BB ATM machine. But back then, it didn't ask ask anything about US dollars..... Also, Visa, at least at one time, didn't allow DCC for ATM transactions (except for EU issued Visa cards). Was your transaction using a MasterCard/Cirrus card?

Interesting you raise that point, Jim...

Indeed, I believe the U.S. debit card that has been drawing the DCC withdrawal screens from BKK Bank ATMS for me lately is indeed a MasterCard logo card.

I've generally never used MC logo cards in the past, but lately had one associated with an otherwise very good account get converted from VISA to MC by the issuing bank. So I can't say how long the DCC thing has been occurring with BKK Bank and at least U.S. MCs.

Originally, if I recall right, our earliest reports of ATM DCC involved MasterCards when used at Bank of Ayudhya and, I think, Siam Commercial ATMs. But it appears, somewhere along the way, Bangkok Bank seems to have joined that fold.

[Pib]

Now I only use my no foreign transaction fee "Visa" debit cards in TMB and Krungsri ATM since these ATM allow Bt30K withdrawals and I've never had a DCC screen appear....and the few times I have used my foreign Visa cards in Bangkok Bank and K-bank ATMs a DCC screen didn't' appear either. Maybe it only occurs with Mastercard cards (I don't use any so I can say) and maybe it some coding in the card, Visa or Mastercard, that allows it. I'm guessing.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

AFAIK, the DCC thing at ATMs is only with non-Thai MasterCards at some Thai banking companies...

Like you, I've never heard of a VISA logo non-Thai card getting DCCd at a Thai ATM.

Certainly, none of my VISA cards have ever encountered that.

But again, as I noted above (but it bears repeating):

If/when you encounter a DCC screen using a MasterCard at a Thai ATM when making a withdrawal, you always have the option to choose to decline that option, and the transaction will proceed as a regular exchange rate baht withdrawal.

Edited April 19, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[Pib]

*Visa currently allows DCC at ATMs only in its Visa EU region on Visa EU issued cards. MasterCard allows DCC at ATMs globally on all MasterCard issued cards. (Date on this unknown.)

And talk about perverse..... Australia's competition agency (ACCC) set out to prosecute Visa for limiting competition by -- you ready? -- not allowing DCC for Australian merchants and ATM owners!

"....from at least October 2007 to February 2013, Visa banned Australian acquirers and DCC providers from offering DCC services to operators of ATMs in Australia.............. Visa implemented and maintained rules that prohibited the further expansion of the supply of DCC services on point-of-sale transactions on the Visa network by rival suppliers." http://www.claytonutz.com/publications/news/201303/05/a_strong_line_the_accc_takes_a_swipe_at_visa.page

So, essentially, the ACCC was saying that Visa was being anti-competitive for NOT allowing Ozzie merchants and ATM owners to gouge their foreign customers with crummy (DCC) FX rates. Their rationale is, I guess, with this statement:

"Visa receives less revenue when a consumer chooses DCC than when they use Visa’s own back-office currency conversion systems."

And maybe they do, based on this statement :

When a USD purchase or ATM transaction is done in a foreign country, is it subject to the Visa inter-national transaction fee?

Yes, transactions made in USD in foreign countries are subject to a Visa International Service Assessments (ISA) of .80% of the transaction amount (compared to the 1.0% Visa fee on transactions made in foreign currencies.)

But why would Visa allow a system (DCC) that costs them money -- if the cardholder opts to use it? Why not just charge 1% for all foreign transactions.... (and maybe they now do -- the above quote is a couple years old)

Wonder what happened to the ACCC lawsuit....?

Jim,

I did a quick read of the lawsuit at the link you gave and although the ACCC exists to (and to quote from the ACCC website): "We are Australia’s competition regulator and national consumer law champion," it sure looks like in this legal action the ACCC is being a champion for merchants/banks who want to use DCC while carrying the flag of competition to justify the lawsuit....but this also seems to be feeding the consumer to the merchants/banksters.

Durn, merchants/banks who aggressively push DCC transactions just burns me. And even when options are given to opt out of a DCC transaction like on an ATM screen, the bankster know many will be fooled by the ATM's warm & fuzzy/vague DCC words and think it's a good thing for them when in fact it's only a good thing for the bank.

Yeap, DCC bad for the customer; DCC good for the bankster/merchant.

Pib

[Pib]

Wonder what happened to the ACCC lawsuit....?

According to this webpage and snapshot below it's proceeding along at a blistering snarl's pace....a court hearing is scheduled for 31 Aug - 9 Oct 2015.

[phil2407]

SCB debit cards can't be used for online purchases as I found out so went to BK bank - got 2 debit cards -1 with my name on as some websites ask for name on card - think cost was 300 baht a card - hope that helps

[JimGant]

.but this also seems to be feeding the consumer to the merchants/banksters.

Pib, remember, those are foreign consumers. Their loss is the Aussie merchant's gain. "National consumer" is the operative phrase in the quote you provided.

And I understand that, should Visa lose and DCC is mandated, then foreign consumers who opt out of a DCC transaction will be immediately deported.

Edited April 19, 2015 by JimGant

[elgenon]

With Air Asia you can ONLY pay with a Thai debit card.

[2fishin2]

With Air Asia you can ONLY pay with a Thai debit card.

Huh?

[Pib]

.but this also seems to be feeding the consumer to the merchants/banksters.

Pib, remember, those are foreign consumers. Their loss is the Aussie merchant's gain. "National consumer" is the operative phrase in the quote you provided.

And I understand that, should Visa lose and DCC is mandated, then foreign consumers who opt out of a DCC transaction will be immediately deported.

Jim, you'll right...since this would only affect foreign cards used in Australia this means the ACCC is attempting to feed foreigners/tourists to the Oz merchants/banks under the disguise of competition. Maybe the ACCC members visited Thailand and got the idea on how to profit more off tourists. Unfortunately, what all too often happens if a court case is successful in one country, it spreads to other countries. I just hope that if the ACCC wins the case it also requires merchants/banks to give plenty of clear indication and choice of acceptance or not during a transaction versus the DCC transaction being made deceptive with vague words/choices.

As FYI, I think this webpage gives a good overview of DCC and how different countries utilize it and how to avoid it. For Thailand they say DCC is generally not a problem and I would have to agree since I've never found it hard to have a merchant cancel a DCC transaction and then rerun it in baht. But as I mentioned earlier I have found a few merchants that refuse to do a transaction with a foreign card unless it's processed as a DCC transaction...that's the farang gouging merchants I stop doing business with unless absolutely no other choice. And Thai ATM screens do give the option to Decline a DCC Transaction although the ATM screen wording may be somewhat deceptive in the wording. Unfortunately based on ThaiVisa posts a lot of people still fall for the ATM deception, and also apparently don't know what a DCC purchase receipt for signature looks like. All the DCC receipts I kicked back for cancellation always reflected your home country currency and Thai baht close to each...makes a DCC transaction easy to spot. And sometimes the bottom of the receipt includes an exchange rate quote although that quote is sometimes times on the very top of the receipt which is torn off by the sales clerk before the clerk hands you the receipt for your signature. But that's OK that I don't see the DCC exchange rate because I know from experience it will be in the 2.75% to 4% lower ballpark.

[gk10002000]

Re Dynamic Currency Conversion, that is something that CAN occur in Thailand both in making ATM withdrawals and making purchases using a non-Thai bank card.

It's up to the individual banks and individual merchants to decide whether or not they want to foist that ripoff on their customers. Usually it works out to be about an extra 2.5-4% charge compared to what you'd pay if weren't doing a DCC transaction. That occurs through you getting a lower than normal exchange rate via the DCC process. NO ONE is requiring the banks or merchants to do DCC. It's strictly a choice on their part.

For example, anytime I use a U.S. debit card to withdraw funds from a Bangkok Bank ATM, the ATM will automatically ASK me if I want my withdrawal amount shown in U.S. dollars. It doesn't call it DCC or tell me I'm going to lose 2.5-4% on the transaction. It's portrayed as a "convenience" so the customer will know the amount of their transaction in the home country currency they are familiar with vs. Thai baht. The important thing to know when you see that at ATMs is... YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECLINE THAT OPTION, and then simply have the transaction calculated in Thai baht -- without the 2.5%-4% extra surcharge.

Likewise, with purchases from merchants, it's basically a choice of which button they press when ringing up your purchase transaction on their bank card machine. One key gets you the Thai baht amount without any surcharges. A different button gets you the DCC amount, with the purchase amount shown in your home country currency, and you paying 2.5%-4% extra for the privilege by getting a LOWER EXCHANGE RATE vs what you would otherwise get.

With merchants, if you get a DCC bill slip showing the amount owed in your home country currency, you have a couple choices:

-- decline to sign the slip and pay cash instead.

-- ask the merchant to re-ring the transaction in regular Thai baht, not as DCC.

Also, in that event, be prepared to get an argument from the Thai staff sometimes.

--Sometimes they'll claim there is no cost difference and the price to you is the same either way. FALSE.

--Sometimes they'll claim DCC is the only way they can ring up your charge and there is no other way to ring it. FALSE.

--Sometimes it takes going past the service staff and speaking with a manager to insist you be allowed to pay the bill as a Thai baht charge.

Anyplace that has a habit of ringing up bills using DCC, I simply won't do business there. They've lost me as a customer if they insist on perpetrating that scam.

I was not aware of this and will bear this in mind in the future. I typically don't use my USA debit card much when in Thailand as I usually bring enough cash for my yearly one or two month vacations, but I certainly have used it over the years.

Thanks

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

DCC is not really a big issue for foreigners in Thailand, at least right now -- compared to the larger issues such as the 180 baht Thai banks ATM withdrawal fee on foreign cards and the high foreign transaction surcharges that many home country banks charge.

Why is DCC not a big deal, at least in terms of spurring someone to move to cash instead?

1. In terms of using ATMs, DCC only comes into play when using MasterCard cards, and not VISA cards, AFAWK. And even with MasterCards, I'm not sure that all the Thai banks are doing DCC, I think it's only some. But even for those that are, you always have the option to decline it by saying NO on the ATM menu, and the withdrawal will be handled at the normal exchange rate.

2. In terms of making card purchases, the share of merchants that try to do DCC to their customers is relatively small and isolated. For most merchants at least around BKK, they either accept bank cards with no DCC, or, they don't accept bank cards at all (cash only) or only for purchases above a certain amount (300b, 500b, etc).

In contrast,

1. Right now, there are AFAWK no Thai banks or ATM options that DON'T charge the 180 baht withdrawal fee against any American bank cards. No choice in the matter. The best you can do is use/have a home country bank that reimburses other banks' ATM fees, including those outside the U.S., which is pretty rare.

2. The typical U.S. bank, including most of the biggest ones, currently charges anywhere from 1 to 3% or more as a foreign currency conversion fee against all foreign ATM withdrawals and card purchases (both credit and debit) done abroad. Some also add on a flat $X per transaction fee in addition for foreign ATM withdrawals. The solution to this is to seek out and obtain the relative few debit and credit cards that charge no foreign currency fees on foreign transactions.

As an American, for most folks, avoiding the Thai bank ATM fees and home bank foreign currency fees is going to be a bigger concern than DCC. The various bank fees are relatively difficult to avoid and requires the work of seeking out the right no-fee accounts. But DCC is pretty easy to avoid just by having informed knowledge of what to look out for and avoid.

-----------------------------------

BTW, just a tip on DCC. That's the formal banking name for what we're talking about -- the charging of an extra 2.5% to 4% or so for the "convenience" of seeing your ATM or purchase transaction immediately listed in your home country currency amount, in addition to Thai baht (albeit at a much worse exchange rate).

If you're out at a shop and they hand you a charge slip that shows the bill amount in U.S. $, that means you're getting DCC'd. The tip is: don't try to talk or explain with the Thai staff about DCC or mention the term, because that's going to be pointless. Just tell them, you don't want the check rung up in U.S. $. You want it rung up in regular Thai baht. And politely direct them to void the original check, and re-ring it in Thai baht only. Most of the time, that solves the problem.

Edited April 21, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

Right now, there are AFAWK no Thai banks or ATM options that DON'T charge the 180 baht withdrawal fee against any American bank cards.

I wonder if you did opt for DCC at the ATM machine, whether or not the 180 baht charge would occur? Probably yes. But for a DCC gouge of 4%, an ATM withdrawal above 4500 baht would be worth more than 180 baht. Certainly if foreigners knew they could save 180 baht by choosing home currency, more would opt for DCC (since most don't understand the downside). But, having said that, I'm sure that, if indeed you could save 180 baht, banks would advertise that fact. Hmmmm. (Or maybe 4% is higher than usual and/or the average farang ATM draw is less than 4500 baht.)

Edited April 21, 2015 by JimGant

[Pib]

Right now, there are AFAWK no Thai banks or ATM options that DON'T charge the 180 baht withdrawal fee against any American bank cards.

I wonder if you did opt for DCC at the ATM machine, whether or not the 180 baht charge would occur? Probably yes. But for a DCC gouge of 4%, an ATM withdrawal above 4500 baht would be worth more than 180 baht. Certainly if foreigners knew they could save 180 baht by choosing home currency, more would opt for DCC (since most don't understand the downside). But, having said that, I'm sure that, if indeed you could save 180 baht, banks would advertise that fact. Hmmmm. (Or maybe 4% is higher than usual and/or the average farang ATM draw is less than 4500 baht.)

And just because a person selects DCC doesn't mean his card-issuing bank still won't charge a foreign transaction fee in the 1 to 3% range which is typical with many cards...they charge the fee simply because it was a foreign transaction in any currency...whether Visa/Mastercard was involved in the currency exchange or not.

So, you could very well end up the the much lower DCC rate topped-off with your card's foreign transaction fee(s). It will vary from bank to bank, card to card as to if the card-issuing bank charges a foreign transaction even on a DCC transaction that has already been processed in your home country currency. For example, below is a snapshot from the Bank of America website regarding their business debit cards...take note of the second paragraph.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

If I remember right, accepting DCC on a Thai bank ATM transaction doesn't in any way cancel you getting charged the 180 baht foreign card fee by the Thai bank.

Even with DCC, you're still using a foreign card, and the Thai banks are going to charge you for it.

Nor does DCC negate your home country bank from assessing its own foreign currency fee for those that charge it.

Most of the bank terms and conditions language I've read parallels what Pib posted above. They'll apply FCF if the transaction occurs outside the U.S., regardless of whether they perform the actual currency conversion themselves. So in some banks' language, they instead call it a "cross-border" or international transaction fee.

Edited April 21, 2015 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[JimGant]

If I remember right, accepting DCC on a Thai bank ATM transaction doesn't in any way cancel you getting charged the 180 baht foreign card fee by the Thai bank.

Wouldn't you have to accept the DCC option -- before being confronted -- or not -- with "do you accept the 180 baht fee?" We know the "180 baht option" is presented in non DCC ATM transactions -- both those never offered, and those turned down. But if not turned down?

Or are you recalling a poster's experience previoulsy reported ('cause I know you've never accepted a DCC ATM transaction )?

And just because a person selects DCC doesn't mean his card-issuing bank still won't charge a foreign transaction fee in the 1 to 3% range

Right. And they're chuckling right along with the merchant and his acquiring bank -- because if the cardholder ends up paying 4% more under DCC ($1,040 vice $1,000), well, 3% of $1,040 is mo' betta than 3% of $1,000 (duh). And, if Visa only docks the issuing bank .8% for DCC transactions (vs 1% in non-DCC FX transacions), well, issuing bankers certainly aren't warning their cardholders about DCC. Totally sucks.

[Pib]

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Wouldn't you have to accept the DCC option -- before being confronted -- or not -- with "do you accept the 180 baht fee?" We know the "180 baht option" is presented in non DCC ATM transactions -- both those never offered, and those turned down. But if not turned down?

Or are you recalling a poster's experience previoulsy reported ('cause I know you've never accepted a DCC ATM transaction )?

I believe I was recapping what had emerged from one of our prior threads/discussions on DCC...

But I don't recall which piece would come first -- the prompt for the 180 baht fee, or, the prompt for accepting DCC...

You're right, though. I've never been suckered for that at the Thai ATMs. And I wouldn't have even known BKK Bank had joined the ranks of the DCCers were it not for the one debit card I have that lately converted from a VISA to a MC.... If not for that, I would have remained blissfully unaware.