1993 Honda Civic overheating

[WarpSpeed]

Sounds most probable to be an overheating fuel pump, clogged filter, clogged line or fuel jet, water/dirt in the fuel, meaning it's working too hard to push fuel, maybe the pump is bad and is over-working to get anything to the engine, pressure eventually drops off, can't keep up with fuel demand and the car stalls, it still hasn't been that long since hundreds of gas stations went under water from the floods and I doubt if any serious efforts were made to cleaning out their underground holding tanks or even testing the fuel quality for that matter. I honestly doubt it got so hot as to have varnished the fuel in the system, that'd be a new motor for certain and would have shown long before this as would many other failures. But, ultimately what you're saying is that they are unable to drive it for more then 15 minutes so the overheating factor is still uncertain to have been resolved since it needs to run for more then just 15 minutes to give it a full hardship test..

I would also never leave my car for ANY mechanic on those rare occasions when I need one but most especially a Thai mechanic, without constant checking and oversight on the work progress and process, but that's me I know what to look for but this job was a rather big one if done correctly and a lot of important details could be missed or completely passed over altogether.

After rereading; What is their supposed suspicion of failure with a small tube? It's just a tube, what could possibly fail with it? If it's dirty clean it out? Why do they believe it has failed in some way and what damage to it did they show you to indicate it may be the problem?

Edited May 7, 2015 by WarpSpeed

[ClareQuilty]

The car's no longer overheating. I've neither the time nor the knowledge to micromanage this work. Regarding this new problem - the main point is that it is an entirely new problem. The carburetor, along with every other aspect of the engine, was working perfectly before this repair, other than the overheating.

When I overheated the car just a couple of weeks ago, it was only for a few seconds - I immediately stopped the car when the needle climbed into the danger zone. Not so the previous owner, who had overheated it severely many years ago, and supposedly avoided subsequent overheating by assiduously adding water ever since (also he drove the car very little in the last 4-5 years). Thus, if 'everything in the car was cooked' it was odd that the car ran perfectly prior to the work just done.

Edited May 7, 2015 by ClareQuilty

[WarpSpeed]

The car's no longer overheating. I've neither the time nor the knowledge to micromanage this work. Regarding this new problem - the main point is that it is an entirely new problem. The carburetor, along with every other aspect of the engine, was working perfectly before this repair, other than the overheating.

When I overheated the car just a couple of weeks ago, it was only for a few seconds - I immediately stopped the car when the needle climbed into the danger zone. Not so the previous owner, who had overheated it severely many years ago, and supposedly avoided subsequent overheating by assiduously adding water ever since (also he drove the car very little in the last 4-5 years). Thus, if 'everything in the car was cooked' it was odd that the car ran perfectly prior to the work just done.

I'm sorry CQ but if they can't run it for longer then 15 minutes before it stalls then they can't really give it a proper test. It may not be overheating as quickly as previously due to a multitude of damage causing sudden overheating but it may just have been partially fixed and not completely and that's why it needs to be run longer and under a heavy load on the system, I.E. long idles, A/C on full, etc. You didn't answer any of the other questions I posed either? You do seem to be getting a bit defensive in your responses when people here are taking their time to try to help you with solutions and advice though. In order to give proper advice it's necessary to have an exchange of information, especially when you have so little knowledge on the topic, it's not an interrogation, well it is of sorts but not intended to be judgmental at least not in my case, can't speak for everyone.

IMO the fuel pump or fuel system is still the more likely culprit of the eventual stalling given it's progressive nature and not some "tube" in the carb without knowing what the tube is though I have an idea what it may be? I don't want to speculate, or why it is supposedly so damaged and how it got that way, and why it can't just be cleaned out, re-installed and then checked? If it has mineral deposits that built up inside it for example then there is likely water in your tank and needs to be flushed as well or soon there will be a repeat of the same problem or worse.

Edited May 7, 2015 by WarpSpeed

[arthurwait]

Have you run it for 15 minutes yourself or have the mechanics and told you 15 minutes ? As in it may not be 15 minutes. Shorter ?

Do you know if it only runs for '15' minutes from cold ?

Could it be the auto choke, to be that alone 15 minutes would be too long, but it could be compensating for a too weak a mixture. After 15 minutes it's had enough of a weak mixture. Maybe the rubber seals were knackered and partially blocking the carb/jet. Without looking at the carb I couldn't say if this was possible.

Can you ask to see a spark plug and tell us what colour it is . If it's been running too rich too compensate for a long time it would be black and wettish looking. If running weak for a long time it would be white and powderish looking.

Edited May 8, 2015 by arthurwait

[arthurwait]

Actually maybe you should check all your spark plugs anyway. Condition and gap size.

[arthurwait]

Running lean makes the engine run hotter, doesn't it ?

[ClareQuilty]

You do seem to be getting a bit defensive in your responses when people here are taking their time to try to help you with solutions and advice though. In order to give proper advice it's necessary to have an exchange of information, especially when you have so little knowledge on the topic, it's not an interrogation, well it is of sorts but not intended to be judgmental at least not in my case, can't speak for everyone.

Thanks for your help WarpSpeed, and I apologize if I seem defensive, I don't intend to. I just keep making the point that there was nothing wrong with the car prior to the recent work other than the overheating problem. Thus, it stands to reason that whatever new problems have popped up after that work were probably caused by that work.

The fuel pump, carb, etc, were all working perfectly before, and the overheating was so momentary and mild, that it would be an incredible coincidence if they just happened to go out while the mechanic had the car for one week. More likely is that some aspect of the head gasket repair they have done has caused the current problem.

Remember, the head gasket problem is probably very old - dating from the severe overheating the previous owner did years ago, not the 30 second close approach to the red-line I did a couple weeks ago. The car was running and driving perfectly during the several weeks I owned it, until one day the water finally ran low enough that it overheated.

[WarpSpeed]

OK CQ I feel your frustration and what I'm going to say may not help that much but here's the thing though. When you begin to unbolt a lot of things like this from an older car it's very difficult NOT to do some other damage to older components, especially when they've been over heated. When removing the head for example you must remove all the necessary parts like manifolds, carbs, spark plugs, hoses, belts, wires, etc. and many of these parts are plastic as well these days. In this case removing the carb, moving it around, not opening it up to clean it out, and maybe laying it down or just bumping it can loosen up debris that has built up inside or was sitting in the bottom of the bowl for example undisturbed until now and maybe it's moved through the system causing your problems, but honestly it's really unfair to blame such things on the mechanic.

I'm speaking from personal experience as just recently I had my cars front end aligned after I bought new tires and just got through replacing all the front end suspension bushings top and bottom. The tech had an issue with getting my car up on the alignment rack as I watched and he had to use boards to extend the ramps but he had already hit the bottom of my car on the alignment rack before that. Once the alignment was finished he test drove the car and he never mentioned that now I had a nasty sounding bump underneath while accelerating or decelerating that was not there when I brought the car in originally, he knew that because he also test drove it before he aligned it. We lifted the car, checked underneath I was also part of that and it was reluctantly (on my part) concluded that the drivers side spring seat had moved during the alignment while lifting the weight off the suspension. Though I was doubtful, it was plausible because I had to disconnect the top of the struts to replace the upper strut bushing and bearing and hadn't driven it that much after the repair so the spring may not have been well seated. We moved it, the sound was similar and it then seemed to seat but when I took it again there was still a problem but it was not consistent either. I was afraid he might have damaged my diff, either when he hit the rack or while he was test driving it, he was a young guy with an interest in the VR6 performance and had never driven one before, mentioned he drag races his Mitsu, so you know how it goes?

That car has 230,000 miles on it, I've been bringing it back to it's glory, but it still has older, high mileage parts on it of which one is the diff. so it's very possible, though I was not having any previous issues or signs of them prior. I brought the car back that afternoon after picking up my boys from school (it's close to their school across town) and politely asked the shop owner whom I thought I had a good relationship with having been there previously, to have another look for me as I was concerned about the diff and I wanted to find out and don't have mechanics (except myself) and lifts at my house. He was very belligerent and uncooperative to say the least. This car, based on it's mileage and such has had a new clutch in the last 25 or so thousands miles before my ownership. I can tell because of some other related issues when I bought it that the tranny has been recently removed, one reason I got a good price on it (longer story) though it has been mostly well maintained mechanically. I stopped at a VW shop on my way home that I had been wanting to stop at previously to see what they had inside as well and mentioned my problem because I wasn't convinced it was the diff and had to be sure?

The tech there had a look at it with me and we did some tests I couldn't really do by myself and found it had seemed it had a bad drivers side mount, too much play when the engine was in gear and we rocked it forward and back. The mount is quite expensive on that car though not very hard to change, I was going to inspect it and see if I could modify it until getting a new one shipped for less money and was removing the old one when I found that the mount was loose from having had the tranny out for the clutch in the past. Tightened 2 bolts but checked all others too and problem solved, but the alignment guy has now lost a good customer because he was a real hard arse about it instead of just giving me a few minutes to suss it out and work with me on it, not even fix it necessarily, I would have done that myself just like I did, I would have gone back and told him but his attitude initially has put me off.

In the end, my point is, that the problem was there prior to the alignment it didn't just loosen up that much due to any of his or my work but it hadn't shown up previously because of all of the worn bushings and out being of alignment that had been placing constant pressure on that mount and so it never really moved until that pressure was relieved by new suspension bushings, tires and alignment bringing everything back into spec. So new problems CAN crop up on older cars that may have already been there and I have a fair sight more knowledge then you do and still got caught out.

[arthurwait]

Ok this is my opinion.

The failed/old past it rubber in the carb was not allowing enough fuel through which caused the fuel mixture to be too lean.

The lean mixture caused the internal temperature of the engine to be too hot.

This at some stage caused the head gasket to blow etc.

The head gasket failure obviously caused the over heating.

The head gasket failure caused the engine to have reduced power, effectively running on 2 or 3 cylinders.

The reduced power /usable cylinders meant the failed fuel pasage could provide enough fuel for the current needs of the engine, but the engine overheated due to the failed head gasket/low coolant/lean mixture.

After the head gasket was fixed the engine was back to 4 cylinders sucking in more air, but the failed carb couldnt provide enough fuel for the mixture.

The auto choke was compensating for this for as long as it could by enriching the mixture, until the engine said enough and stalled.

As said ask if you can see your plugs and see if you notice if the engine seems more powerful.

[DavisH]

CQ , is this the mechanic you also take your bikes too ? . Sounds like the "old" man knows your budget , and is working to it .Not always the best way to do things , but you are correct to not spend too much on a cheap car .

My goodness no - car mechanics and bike mechanics don't mix. His prices, though reasonable, are many times what I'd pay for a bike repair. The little bike shops I use are super cheap.

I tend to like older people and suspect they do better work, understand old machines better, and perhaps even understand extreme impecuniousness better. Besides, he speaks a rough and ready English from many years of working in the middle east.

Should be just another couple of days till the job's finished, I'll report back.

Many of the " older " mechanics also seem more inclined / willing to repair , rather than replace .

I wonder how many of these plug-n-ply mechanics could strip down and rebuild an engine...even an older one. I used to get my mini serviced and rebuilt by older mechanics...those who grew up having trained with non-ecu engines with carbs. Maybe that's one reason why they replace.....they don't know how to fix things, or in modern engines, they are too difficult to fix for regular mechanics.

[lostinisaan]

Ok this is my opinion.

The failed/old past it rubber in the carb was not allowing enough fuel through which caused the fuel mixture to be too lean.

The lean mixture caused the internal temperature of the engine to be too hot.

This at some stage caused the head gasket to blow etc.

The head gasket failure obviously caused the over heating.

The head gasket failure caused the engine to have reduced power, effectively running on 2 or 3 cylinders.

The reduced power /usable cylinders meant the failed fuel pasage could provide enough fuel for the current needs of the engine, but the engine overheated due to the failed head gasket/low coolant/lean mixture.

After the head gasket was fixed the engine was back to 4 cylinders sucking in more air, but the failed carb couldnt provide enough fuel for the mixture.

The auto choke was compensating for this for as long as it could by enriching the mixture, until the engine said enough and stalled.

As said ask if you can see your plugs and see if you notice if the engine seems more powerful.

You're making assumptions here. What if it's only a cracked rubber vacuum hose? Or one they forgot to attach....

These models use plenty of rubber hoses to open and close valves,switches, etc.. that's what I'd look for first. Just saying.

It's obvious that they don't know what's wrong. Time to take it out of their hands and get it checked by somebody who knows where to look at.

Edited May 10, 2015 by lostinisaan

[ClareQuilty]

Got the verdict yesterday - turns out the head was in fact cracked. The mechanic told me that the head shop had told him they thought it was cracked, but he didn't believe it, and in an effort to 'save your money' as he put it, he decided to try it out. Well, as it turns out the head was cracked..

So, he said he would go back and get a second-hand head from the same shop where they ground my head, for 2,500, plus an additional 500 for another gasket set, and he wouldn't charge me any additional labor as it was his mistake. He showed me the bill so far was about 10,900, so with this additional 3,000 he promised he wouldn't charge me over 14,000. Should be finished in a few more days.

So, as it turns out there was something wrong with his repair, but perhaps I'm partly to blame for giving him the impression I am so parsimonious that he should take risks with the repair..

[WarpSpeed]

Got the verdict yesterday - turns out the head was in fact cracked. The mechanic told me that the head shop had told him they thought it was cracked, but he didn't believe it, and in an effort to 'save your money' as he put it, he decided to try it out. Well, as it turns out the head was cracked..

So, he said he would go back and get a second-hand head from the same shop where they ground my head, for 2,500, plus an additional 500 for another gasket set, and he wouldn't charge me any additional labor as it was his mistake. He showed me the bill so far was about 10,900, so with this additional 3,000 he promised he wouldn't charge me over 14,000. Should be finished in a few more days.

So, as it turns out there was something wrong with his repair, but perhaps I'm partly to blame for giving him the impression I am so parsimonious that he should take risks with the repair..

Honest admission on your part, I think somebody mentioned the distinct possibility of a cracked head way back somewhere? Now, the thing is, heads generally crack due to overheating, so hopefully THAT problem has been addressed and the cycle won't repeat itself. That's why the advice to get so many things done right the first time is so critical, it's not just unnecessary and costly steps, but doing it twice to finally get it right always is. So then they never really did run it a full 15 minutes even or like I mentioned quite frankly that was never enough time, but so why was it stalling? What relation did that have to the current circumstance of it having a cracked head? Or is it that they discovered it still overheats after solving the stalling issue and running it longer?

[WarpSpeed]

Running lean makes the engine run hotter, doesn't it ?

Yes....

[ClareQuilty]

So then they never really did run it a full 15 minutes even or like I mentioned quite frankly that was never enough time, but so why was it stalling? What relation did that have to the current circumstance of it having a cracked head? Or is it that they discovered it still overheats after solving the stalling issue and running it longer?

The explanation was apparently a communication difficulty - the owner's English isn't that good, and perhaps gets worse when he's befuddled or obfuscating a bit. What was happening (as far as I can tell) is the car was running for 15 minutes and then overheating, not stalling out.

I'm just hoping for the best, we'll see. Hoping he has it right, hoping the second-hand head is a good one, etc.

[WarpSpeed]

Uh huh, now it's beginning to get more clear, that sounds very Thai like..

[ClareQuilty]

Oh, goodness. Another visit reveals it is in fact not the cracked head - he took it too a more 'high tech' shop an hour away which was able to determine using some special machine that in fact the head was not cracked, and that the problem was almost certainly due to their not having done the head job correctly. Apparently they had not managed to file down the head and the engine block properly, and when they put in the new gasket, it didn't seal well. He sent the head to a better shop for re-grinding, and borrowed a special machine or apparatus for grinding the block properly.

So, at least I won't have to pay for a replacement head, but hopefully he will stick to the 'no further labor charges' promise he made a few days ago. If it comes in under 14,000 I'll be happy, if its more I'll protest.

[arthurwait]

What's the bet crusty the clown bent the head himself ?

[ClareQuilty]

What's the bet crusty the clown bent the head himself ?

By clown do you mean me or the mechanic? Because I thought the head had to be heated to warp. Seems not terribly likely in the shop?

[JAS21]

I wonder what that was ... a special machine or apparatus for grinding the block properly... a Black & Decker sander? sorry

[arthurwait]

What's the bet crusty the clown bent the head himself ?

By clown do you mean me or the mechanic? Because I thought the head had to be heated to warp. Seems not terribly likely in the shop?

The mechanic.

A head has to be removed and refitted in sequence and stages with a torque wrench or it can bend.

[ClareQuilty]

I wonder what that was ... a special machine or apparatus for grinding the block properly... a Black & Decker sander? sorry

No, he showed me an enormous sort of very heavy, thick flat grey rectangular thing.. it looked a lot like a perfectly angular grindstone..

[ClareQuilty]

The mechanic.

A head has to be removed and refitted in sequence and stages with a torque wrench or it can bend.

Seems odd they wouldn't know about that - they do these head jobs at least once a month: I've seen them doing them, and had friends who had them done there..

[WarpSpeed]

Uh huh, now it's beginning to get more clear, that sounds very Thai like..

[arthurwait]

The mechanic.

A head has to be removed and refitted in sequence and stages with a torque wrench or it can bend.

Seems odd they wouldn't know about that - they do these head jobs at least once a month: I've seen them doing them, and had friends who had them done there..

It's very easily done if you get slack or try to rush it.

[arthurwait]

I wonder what that was ... a special machine or apparatus for grinding the block properly... a Black & Decker sander? sorry

No, he showed me an enormous sort of very heavy, thick flat grey rectangular thing.. it looked a lot like a perfectly angular grindstone..

Like this ?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skimming+a+cylinder+head&biw=1366&bih=640&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gOZWVZaQCIv28QWYyYHoAg&ved=0CCAQsAQ

[ClareQuilty]

No, he showed me an enormous sort of very heavy, thick flat grey rectangular thing.. it looked a lot like a perfectly angular grindstone..

Like this ?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skimming+a+cylinder+head&biw=1366&bih=640&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gOZWVZaQCIv28QWYyYHoAg&ved=0CCAQsAQ

No, not like that, it was just a big rectangle of some kind of grey material.

Anyway, happy news, for now - I got the car back, and the job is completed. The car runs fine, drove it around on many errands in 95 degree heat today with the air on continuously, and the temp gauge stayed rock-steady. Power and drive-ability seem unchanged.

Total bill, as promised, right at 14,000..

He even fixed a few little bits and bobs for free - such as gluing down or reattaching any loose interior parts, and fixing (bondo-ing) a minor dent/hole in the front right fender from a small accident. (true, he's no body-man, so the fix was apparent under close examination, but its a huge improvement).

[WarpSpeed]

I have no idea how these Thai's make any money doing jobs like this 2 and 3 times to get it right.

[JAS21]

I wonder what that was ... a special machine or apparatus for grinding the block properly... a Black & Decker sander? sorry

No, he showed me an enormous sort of very heavy, thick flat grey rectangular thing.. it looked a lot like a perfectly angular grindstone..

Like this ?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=skimming+a+cylinder+head&biw=1366&bih=640&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=gOZWVZaQCIv28QWYyYHoAg&ved=0CCAQsAQ

No I don't think so. Nearly all those pictures are of cylinder heads ... I have to admit that I have never seen a block ground in position ... ie not stripped down ... I think that it would be quite difficult to do anything other than just clean the surface of the block whilst in situ. My comment was made in humor ... pity CQ didn't take a pic of what was used ... would have been something like a B&D to take the glaze off I guess or from the description I now see a carborundum.stone.

Edited May 17, 2015 by JAS21

[Lancashirelad]

Just to clear something up for a couple of posters. Yes a lean mixture will cause an engine to run hotter, but not hot enough to blow a head gasket or crack a head.

Overheating after 15 mins from cold sounds like a faulty thermostatic fan switch not bringing the fan on.

Glad all is well eventually.

Edited May 17, 2015 by Lancashirelad