Date set for clearance of Tiger Temple

[German Viking]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. Making money should not be the main objective of conservation, and they should at least have been encouraged to return many of the orphaned cubs to the wild when they reach adulthood.

What was started with good intent, and a lack of conservation knowledge, has evolved into a tourist attraction and revenue earner, instead of evolving into the foremost authority on tiger conservation and rehabilitation.

saving orphaned tigers from death" .... There is no evidence to support this. If you kill an adult female tiger then the cubs may be captured and sold ..... To the highest bidder. Who is to say the temple didn't see an opportunity?

My understanding is that locals took the cubs to the temple, as they do with any animal they want to get rid of. I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother. What I did see was the beginning of the commercialisation, with new enclosures under construction.

As to claims of the tigers being druggged, where is the evidence for that? I saw docile tigers, but put that down to being raised by humans and being nocturnal in the heat of the day, all they wanted to do was sleep. Apart from one tiger, it was cooling in the water, and playing with a monk, just like a domestic cat would.

I agree whole heartedly that the place should now be closed, or turned over to conservationists for research and rehabilitation, with funding raised internationally through animal welfare charities, like the one that drew attention the the place, with the aid of Ricky Gervais.

I also fully understand that the Thai authorities don't want to be burdened with the cost of looking after the animals for too long, and I fully expect that the charity that raised attention had a plan in place before spurring the Thai aurorities into action. If you think the Thai attitude towards animals is bad, I suggest you travel a bit more and see how animals are held in low regard, except for use as food or currency in other countries. What the Thais have done should be applauded, not derided and used as an opportunity to find fault.

You have decided to raise several issues here, most odpf which have been dealt with elsewhere.

As for the first tigers at the temple.. I believe the first actually died...however the story you refers to us one from the monks and has nothing to support it.

It would be very naive to believe it IMO.

There have been allegations of illegal wildlife trading at the temple from the start which would also reinforce any allegations that the temple bought tigers from poachers...as an investment.

I would suggest you look at CWI report and others to see their opinions on the origins of the temple's stock of animals....and how apocryphal or not their spin on their origins may be.

"I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother"

You don't seem to realise what you were looking at.

The cubs were in all probability bred at the temple and had a "mother" who the monks were essentially using as a tiger cub producing machine. This of course often means that the mother is unable to suckle her young properly thus requiring them to be hand fed. They are of course a huge tourist draw and make a lit of money for the temple.

I beg your pardon you missing the point it's actually not important where the tigers coming from, there must be a solution asap, what to do with the tigers.

To asking where the tigers coming from and who is involved is only interesting in aTrail against all these bastards.

[cumgranosalum]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. Making money should not be the main objective of conservation, and they should at least have been encouraged to return many of the orphaned cubs to the wild when they reach adulthood.

What was started with good intent, and a lack of conservation knowledge, has evolved into a tourist attraction and revenue earner, instead of evolving into the foremost authority on tiger conservation and rehabilitation.

saving orphaned tigers from death" .... There is no evidence to support this. If you kill an adult female tiger then the cubs may be captured and sold ..... To the highest bidder. Who is to say the temple didn't see an opportunity?

My understanding is that locals took the cubs to the temple, as they do with any animal they want to get rid of. I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother. What I did see was the beginning of the commercialisation, with new enclosures under construction.

As to claims of the tigers being druggged, where is the evidence for that? I saw docile tigers, but put that down to being raised by humans and being nocturnal in the heat of the day, all they wanted to do was sleep. Apart from one tiger, it was cooling in the water, and playing with a monk, just like a domestic cat would.

I agree whole heartedly that the place should now be closed, or turned over to conservationists for research and rehabilitation, with funding raised internationally through animal welfare charities, like the one that drew attention the the place, with the aid of Ricky Gervais.

I also fully understand that the Thai authorities don't want to be burdened with the cost of looking after the animals for too long, and I fully expect that the charity that raised attention had a plan in place before spurring the Thai aurorities into action. If you think the Thai attitude towards animals is bad, I suggest you travel a bit more and see how animals are held in low regard, except for use as food or currency in other countries. What the Thais have done should be applauded, not derided and used as an opportunity to find fault.

You have decided to raise several issues here, most odpf which have been dealt with elsewhere.

As for the first tigers at the temple.. I believe the first actually died...however the story you refers to us one from the monks and has nothing to support it.

It would be very naive to believe it IMO.

There have been allegations of illegal wildlife trading at the temple from the start which would also reinforce any allegations that the temple bought tigers from poachers...as an investment.

I would suggest you look at CWI report and others to see their opinions on the origins of the temple's stock of animals....and how apocryphal or not their spin on their origins may be.

"I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother"

You don't seem to realise what you were looking at.

The cubs were in all probability bred at the temple and had a "mother" who the monks were essentially using as a tiger cub producing machine. This of course often means that the mother is unable to suckle her young properly thus requiring them to be hand fed. They are of course a huge tourist draw and make a lit of money for the temple.

I beg your pardon you missing the point it's actually not important where the tigers coming from, there must be a solution asap, what to do with the tigers.

To asking where the tigers coming from and who is involved is only interesting in aTrail against all these bastards.

Thaiknee Tim raised the issue by unquestioningly accepting the temple's account of how they began.

To fully understand the issues and criticisms that surround the temple it is important to know that the history according to the monks is most likely just spin.

Where the tigers come from is VITAL also in understanding the problems of what can or cannot be done with them as it is vital to understand that they are largely bred within the temple...this means that they are NOT from the wild but in all likihood inbred or hybrids and totally unsuitable to be released into the wild.

It has always been the implication of the temple that they were in some way a conservation based enterprise...this is TOTALLY MISLEADING....and ckeasrly not fully understood by several people who have posted on this and other threads concerning the temple. It also appears that K. Niphon of DNP does not understand this.....This in turn means that the handling of these animals has not been thoroughly thought out by those involved.

It is therefore most important that anyone and everyone has a clear picture of the massive problems the temple has created, how this came about and how it affects the future if these animals.

Edited April 17, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[German Viking]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. Making money should not be the main objective of conservation, and they should at least have been encouraged to return many of the orphaned cubs to the wild when they reach adulthood.

What was started with good intent, and a lack of conservation knowledge, has evolved into a tourist attraction and revenue earner, instead of evolving into the foremost authority on tiger conservation and rehabilitation.

saving orphaned tigers from death" .... There is no evidence to support this. If you kill an adult female tiger then the cubs may be captured and sold ..... To the highest bidder. Who is to say the temple didn't see an opportunity?

My understanding is that locals took the cubs to the temple, as they do with any animal they want to get rid of. I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother. What I did see was the beginning of the commercialisation, with new enclosures under construction.

As to claims of the tigers being druggged, where is the evidence for that? I saw docile tigers, but put that down to being raised by humans and being nocturnal in the heat of the day, all they wanted to do was sleep. Apart from one tiger, it was cooling in the water, and playing with a monk, just like a domestic cat would.

I agree whole heartedly that the place should now be closed, or turned over to conservationists for research and rehabilitation, with funding raised internationally through animal welfare charities, like the one that drew attention the the place, with the aid of Ricky Gervais.

I also fully understand that the Thai authorities don't want to be burdened with the cost of looking after the animals for too long, and I fully expect that the charity that raised attention had a plan in place before spurring the Thai aurorities into action. If you think the Thai attitude towards animals is bad, I suggest you travel a bit more and see how animals are held in low regard, except for use as food or currency in other countries. What the Thais have done should be applauded, not derided and used as an opportunity to find fault.

You have decided to raise several issues here, most odpf which have been dealt with elsewhere.

As for the first tigers at the temple.. I believe the first actually died...however the story you refers to us one from the monks and has nothing to support it.

It would be very naive to believe it IMO.

There have been allegations of illegal wildlife trading at the temple from the start which would also reinforce any allegations that the temple bought tigers from poachers...as an investment.

I would suggest you look at CWI report and others to see their opinions on the origins of the temple's stock of animals....and how apocryphal or not their spin on their origins may be.

"I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother"

You don't seem to realise what you were looking at.

The cubs were in all probability bred at the temple and had a "mother" who the monks were essentially using as a tiger cub producing machine. This of course often means that the mother is unable to suckle her young properly thus requiring them to be hand fed. They are of course a huge tourist draw and make a lit of money for the temple.

I beg your pardon you missing the point it's actually not important where the tigers coming from, there must be a solution asap, what to do with the tigers.

To asking where the tigers coming from and who is involved is only interesting in aTrail against all these bastards.

Thaiknee Tim raised the issue by unquestioningly accepting the temple's account of how they began.

To fully understand the issues and criticisms that surround the temple it is important to know that the history according to the monks is most likely just spin.

Where the tigers come from is VITAL also in understanding the problems of what can or cannot be done with them as it is vital to understand that they are largely bred within the temple...this means that they are NOT from the wild but in all likihood inbred or hybrids and totally unsuitable to be released into the wild.

It has always been the implication of the temple that they were in some way a conservation based enterprise...this is TOTALLY MISLEADING....and ckeasrly not fully understood by several people who have posted on this and other threads concerning the temple. It also appears that K. Niphon of DNP does not understand this.....This in turn means that the handling of these animals has not been thoroughly thought out by those involved.

It is therefore most important that anyone and everyone has a clear picture of the massive problems the temple has created, how this came about and how it affects the future if these animals.

It's important to having now a solution asap this tigers costing a fortune every day, anyway if you had read all the post before, then as for example I posted before it's impossible to release these tigers in to the wild. This case was published on the 4. febr. 2015 today 17. april 2015 how long will wait, can you feeding them. The question is, did the Thai goverment real try to sell the tigers to international Zoo and when how was the price, or they just like to sell to the highest buyer (Chinese), and just wait until some grass is grown over this case, anyway the time running against the government, caused of the high costs.

[Lite Beer]

Effort to remove tigers from Tiger Temple to new homes continues

BANGKOK: -- The Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Preservation continued with its effort to negotiate with the abbot of the Tiger Temple or known officially as Wat Pa Luang Ta Maha Bua in Saiyok district of Kanchanaburi to remove all the tiger population from the temple to new homes.

However this latest effort might be failed again when the abbot won’t be ready for the talk as he will go abroad. This prompted the department to seek court’s authorization to remove the tigers if no cooperation is given by the temple abbot.

Adisorn Nuchdamrong, the deputy director-general of the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Preservation, stated that he had planned to meet with the abbot of the Tiger Temple to discuss the removal of 147 tigers being looked after by monks at the temple to the Khao Prathap and Khao Son wild animal sanctuaries in Ratchaburi provoince.

However this was not possible when the temple abbot said he would be travelling to the US on Monday, May 20th which will mean that the negotiations will have to be postponed.

He stated however that if he did not receive the cooperation from the temple within 15 days then the department would have no choice but to apply for writs to be issued by the courts for an inspection and finally the removal of the animals.

Mr. Adisorn revealed that all the necessary preparations such as transportation and animal pens have been completed and expects that all 147 tigers will require at least two weeks to be removed to new homes.

In 1999, the Department of National Parks, Wildlife and Plant Preservation left seven tigers it seized from poachers under the care of the temple. Since then the number of tigers rose now to 147 and all belonged to the department because they are protected animals. The temple raised these tigers with donations from the public and entrance fees collected from tourists visiting the temple while the department has no budget to raise these tigers.

Source: http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/effort-to-remove-tigers-from-tiger-temple-to-new-homes-continues

-- Thai PBS 2015-04-17

[cumgranosalum]

So the saga continues. It looks as if the Abbot has chosen to play cat and mouse with the authorities.

Whatbus he going to do in America? A "hearts and minds" campaign no doubt. I'm sure their are plenty if people in the States who won't be able to see through a yellow robe.

[cumgranosalum]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. Making money should not be the main objective of conservation, and they should at least have been encouraged to return many of the orphaned cubs to the wild when they reach adulthood.

What was started with good intent, and a lack of conservation knowledge, has evolved into a tourist attraction and revenue earner, instead of evolving into the foremost authority on tiger conservation and rehabilitation.

saving orphaned tigers from death" .... There is no evidence to support this. If you kill an adult female tiger then the cubs may be captured and sold ..... To the highest bidder. Who is to say the temple didn't see an opportunity?

My understanding is that locals took the cubs to the temple, as they do with any animal they want to get rid of. I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother. What I did see was the beginning of the commercialisation, with new enclosures under construction.

As to claims of the tigers being druggged, where is the evidence for that? I saw docile tigers, but put that down to being raised by humans and being nocturnal in the heat of the day, all they wanted to do was sleep. Apart from one tiger, it was cooling in the water, and playing with a monk, just like a domestic cat would.

I agree whole heartedly that the place should now be closed, or turned over to conservationists for research and rehabilitation, with funding raised internationally through animal welfare charities, like the one that drew attention the the place, with the aid of Ricky Gervais.

I also fully understand that the Thai authorities don't want to be burdened with the cost of looking after the animals for too long, and I fully expect that the charity that raised attention had a plan in place before spurring the Thai aurorities into action. If you think the Thai attitude towards animals is bad, I suggest you travel a bit more and see how animals are held in low regard, except for use as food or currency in other countries. What the Thais have done should be applauded, not derided and used as an opportunity to find fault.

You have decided to raise several issues here, most odpf which have been dealt with elsewhere.

As for the first tigers at the temple.. I believe the first actually died...however the story you refers to us one from the monks and has nothing to support it.

It would be very naive to believe it IMO.

There have been allegations of illegal wildlife trading at the temple from the start which would also reinforce any allegations that the temple bought tigers from poachers...as an investment.

I would suggest you look at CWI report and others to see their opinions on the origins of the temple's stock of animals....and how apocryphal or not their spin on their origins may be.

"I visited the tiger temple in 2007, they didn't have 146 tigers, and there were cubs that were too young to survive without a mother"

You don't seem to realise what you were looking at.

The cubs were in all probability bred at the temple and had a "mother" who the monks were essentially using as a tiger cub producing machine. This of course often means that the mother is unable to suckle her young properly thus requiring them to be hand fed. They are of course a huge tourist draw and make a lit of money for the temple.

I beg your pardon you missing the point it's actually not important where the tigers coming from, there must be a solution asap, what to do with the tigers.

To asking where the tigers coming from and who is involved is only interesting in aTrail against all these bastards.

Thaiknee Tim raised the issue by unquestioningly accepting the temple's account of how they began.

To fully understand the issues and criticisms that surround the temple it is important to know that the history according to the monks is most likely just spin.

Where the tigers come from is VITAL also in understanding the problems of what can or cannot be done with them as it is vital to understand that they are largely bred within the temple...this means that they are NOT from the wild but in all likihood inbred or hybrids and totally unsuitable to be released into the wild.

It has always been the implication of the temple that they were in some way a conservation based enterprise...this is TOTALLY MISLEADING....and ckeasrly not fully understood by several people who have posted on this and other threads concerning the temple. It also appears that K. Niphon of DNP does not understand this.....This in turn means that the handling of these animals has not been thoroughly thought out by those involved.

It is therefore most important that anyone and everyone has a clear picture of the massive problems the temple has created, how this came about and how it affects the future if these animals.

It's important to having now a solution asap this tigers costing a fortune every day, anyway if you had read all the post before, then as for example I posted before it's impossible to release these tigers in to the wild. This case was published on the 4. febr. 2015 today 17. april 2015 how long will wait, can you feeding them. The question is, did the Thai goverment real try to sell the tigers to international Zoo and when how was the price, or they just like to sell to the highest buyer (Chinese), and just wait until some grass is grown over this case, anyway the time running against the government, caused of the high costs.

The Thai government has officially been the owner of the tigers for years....the cost is their responsibility.

I sorry but you seem not to read others posts properly and are so disorganised in your construction of an argument that your posts are either pretty much incoherent or just a regurgitation of what has already been said. It would seem that although your heart is in the right place, your comprehension of the whole situation is at best very murky and beset by assumption and misunderstanding.

Edited April 18, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[cumgranosalum]

It seems to me that the authorities plan....if you can call it that....is ill conceived and headed for either failure or disaster. The lack of expertise is becoming apparent and the misinformed comments of the ministers and officials involved reported in the media can only give cause for further concern.

I would suggest that the "plan" falls flat on its face at the very fist step.......it isn't the tigers that need moving at first, its the monks.

[monkey4u]

So the jet setting abbot wont be in town due to oversea's travel

Sounds like a good time to take all the tigers and close down the zoo

From what started as helping the animals has turned into a gold mine for the abbot

Why does an abbot from the country side need to travel

To hide his money

[mike324]

Moving tigers around won't be any better for the tigers there for sure, and many are bound to go missing and die as a result. You will not find enough people with experience in Thailand to take care of so many tigers.

As much as I disagree with what the temple does, it is still best to keep tigers there. They have started a very successful breeding program to say the least. Have the tigers tagged with rfid and continue to do regular monitor and check ups, if abbot refuse entry for government officials during random checks they are simply fined and taken to jail. I think that is a better solution. Perhaps station a couple of government official workers to keep tabs on the money. Limit the number of tourist allow per day, no playing with the big cats. There will still be corruption, but maybe at a smaller scale. In the long run find a way to introduce tigers into the wild, even if it means shipping it abroad.

[slipperylobster]

Next step is for them to remove the thousands of crocodiles from walking street in pattaya.

[German Viking]

Next step is for them to remove the thousands of crocodiles from walking street in pattaya.

You forgot the Sharkies.

[German Viking]

If I would be in charge in this ministary, which is responsible for the tigers, then this Abbot would be availabe for me 24/7(Prison) from the day of the raid, but only when I'm not involved in this dirty business. IMO is this the main problem, to many influental ppl was involved in this dirty business, who still cover this case. Wake Mr. PM and feeding them all to the tigers.

[ourmanflint]

Somebody had better remind those cleaners that as soon as the doping the monks use wears off, they will be breakfast!

[roo860]

They should start by eating the money grabbing greedy monks!

[cumgranosalum]

So the jet setting abbot wont be in town due to oversea's travel

Sounds like a good time to take all the tigers and close down the zoo

From what started as helping the animals has turned into a gold mine for the abbot

Why does an abbot from the country side need to travel

To hide his money

"what started as helping the animals has turned into a gold mine for the abbot"

Why is it that so many people unquestioningly accept this version of how the tiger temple started. There is no evidence to support this story.. It smells strongly of spin

[cumgranosalum]

Moving tigers around won't be any better for the tigers there for sure, and many are bound to go missing and die as a result. You will not find enough people with experience in Thailand to take care of so many tigers.

As much as I disagree with what the temple does, it is still best to keep tigers there. They have started a very successful breeding program to say the least. Have the tigers tagged with rfid and continue to do regular monitor and check ups, if abbot refuse entry for government officials during random checks they are simply fined and taken to jail. I think that is a better solution. Perhaps station a couple of government official workers to keep tabs on the money. Limit the number of tourist allow per day, no playing with the big cats. There will still be corruption, but maybe at a smaller scale. In the long run find a way to introduce tigers into the wild, even if it means shipping it abroad.

Basically I think you are right; the temple doesn't need to have the tigers removed straightaway, it needs a regime change. It should be run by experts on sound conservation and welfare principles. By foreigners if necessary expertise can't be found in Thailand.

.this however is VERY WRONG! "They have started a very successful breeding program to say the least." - they have engaged in a disastrous breeding programming, which in turn makes your other statement impossible....

" In the long run find a way to introduce tigers into the wild," .....

This could be the most disastrous consequence of all, for reasons that have been laid out time and again.

Once the temple animals are in the care if responsible, scientific managers them the dispersal if the animals could take place at a controlled and properly planned rate that takes into account the condition, state and needs of each individual animal

Edited April 18, 2015 by cumgranosalum

[blowin]

Corrupt monks making money. Welcome to the land of smiles...

[Acharn]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. <snip>

That's a strong assertion. How much money do they make off such an operation, anyway? If I was a tourist I don't think I'd be interested. Do Chinese tourists pay a lot of money to look at animals? There was a Tiger Zoo in Sri Racha, but I was never interested enough to go look at it and I heard they were broke because nobody was interested. Does the forest temple make enough from charging for admission and parking and selling junk food to pay for feeding the animals?

[cumgranosalum]

Initially the monks intent was good, saving orphaned tigers from death, but then they realised the revenue earning potential of the place and went commercial. <snip>

That's a strong assertion. How much money do they make off such an operation, anyway? If I was a tourist I don't think I'd be interested. Do Chinese tourists pay a lot of money to look at animals? There was a Tiger Zoo in Sri Racha, but I was never interested enough to go look at it and I heard they were broke because nobody was interested. Does the forest temple make enough from charging for admission and parking and selling junk food to pay for feeding the animals?

This is about the clearing of the temple...it seems you are not up to speed on the history of either the temple or the Sri Rachga zoo. May I suggest you Google these places as there is plenty of info available if you are interested

[cumgranosalum]

According to WFFT the DNP has settled on a date for clearing the temple of its stock if tigers......

Thai authorities (Department of National Parks) have officially announced that they will start to remove the tigers from the tiger temple this coming Friday the 24th of April. The department's director-general said he had no other choice as the temple board, the foundation and the abbot were not willing to discuss a better management for the tigers and that illegally obtained and protected wildlife was found at the temple in the last weeks.

[CharlieH]

Running in News section:

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/818610-parks-chief-asks-kanchanaburi-temple-to-allow-transfer-of-tigers/?p=9323177&hl=%2Btemple+%2Btigers

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