Maize and Rotational Crops

[kickstart]

Last week i bought 100 gr. of sunflower seed for 120 Bath. Is this normal or not? Or there so expensive.

Hi Allgeier,

I paid 750/baht/kilo back around july but that was 1 kilo bags.

What variety did you buy?

The variety i got is for oil seed but there's many types.

Sun flower seed is expensive ,why I do not know, 100 gm. 120 Bart is a bit over the odds , but never seen sunflower seed sold by a 100gm packet , unless you got the seed from a garden centre type place ,most as FJ said is sold by 1 kg bags ,the seed is all hybrid ,must be difficult to produce seed ,or the seed company's making as much money as they can.

And I have often thought that is why Thai farmers put very little input in to the crop ,ie .most use no fertilizer ,never seen a crop sprayed for any thing, as I have said before they ,drill the seed ,shut the field gate ,open it for harvesting, not the margins there for a lot of input .

I do not understand seed for sprouts ? In Thailand sunflower seed is crushed for the oil ,then the residue is used for livestock feed .

The violet and red seed I have never seen , the misses said she has seen violet ,but never red ,all I have seen is black seed ,and that could be why the seed was expensive.

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

The tree in the background of my photo is a Don-Son ต้นสน , in Thai, it is a type of pine tree ,they is a few posts on TV about them .

This one is about 12 years old ,planted by the former owner of the land ,it now belongs to our next door neighbour ,he is talking about chopping it down and making it into charcoal ,sometime next year,what a waist , I am tempted to offer him a few thousand Bart for it ,and just leave it ,it is growing well ,being on our land ,never short of water ,cattle often use it for shade .

The Banana trees in the far background, are some posh variety belonging to our neighbour , thinks he will ,make a lot on them, feeds them a type of EM fertilizer they look well ,I still say he will only get 20 - 30 Bart a bunch ,just like ordinary bananas .

Thanks KS,

At some stage in the future i need to plant some trees around the boundary to protect the crops from wind damage.

At the same time i have lovely views and i don't want to block them out so always on the lookout for what would suit my needs.

Trees for wind brakes ,looking at the net Neem trees ,or Don-Sado,would do ,they grow quick to ,if they get out of hand ,thin them out ,wood makes good charcoal ,and as I have found out ,treated they will last in the ground longer than a lot of Thai wood ,ie, fencingposts .,the bigger trees are popular for furniture

Don-Son grows quickly ,if you want to thin them out ,a ready market for building, MIL's old house had Mie Son roof joists lasted for years.in Thai land they are a few different verities ,look at TV .

One of the bounders on our land has the tree legume Leucaena,or Gratin in Thai ,but what I have read on TV ,gratin dose not grow well in Issan ,it grows quickly ,and we use it for charcoal ,but we have found in a strong wind the branches /trunks snap off ,into the field ,just what you're combine needs ,when combining a headland at dusk time ,for me they break the wire on my electric fence .

Also within 3 meters not a lot grows ,shade from the trees, and the land is very dry the whole time, trees soak up all the water ,it would help if we had a big thinning section ,some of these trees have been they a few years ,but some of the local birds like them ,reluctant to do a lot .

[farmerjo]

Well its that time of year and spent all day yesterday on the spray rig,spray topping weeds to stop them setting seed.

Its something i've been a bit slack on in previous seasons.

Would normally use paraquat for this but had enough glysophate in the shed so used that.

I applied it at 350ml/rai,fingers crossed the rate was heavy enough or may have to do another pass over it.

The missed areas should be minimal now i've got the gps sorted out.

[farmerjo]

Subsoiler Mark 2 is ready to go.

Mark 1

Mark 2

[Allgeier]

kickstart:

I do not understand seed for sprouts ?

http://cooking.kapook.com/view85003.html

The violet and red seed I have never seen , the misses said she has seen violet ,but never red ,all I have seen is black seed ,and that could be why the seed was expensive.

The violett and red color come from a chemical. It is not a nature color. From nature i know only black.

[farmerjo]

kickstart:

I do not understand seed for sprouts ?

http://cooking.kapook.com/view85003.html

The violet and red seed I have never seen , the misses said she has seen violet ,but never red ,all I have seen is black seed ,and that could be why the seed was expensive.

The violett and red color come from a chemical. It is not a nature color. From nature i know only black.

Hi Allgeier,

You learn everyday,i didn't know about sunflower sprouts.

Can you tell us more about the coloured ones,are they for show or they have a use too.

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

Well, how did it go? the mk 2 subsoiler ,looking at that blade ,that should not bend ,just hope you can get the depth ,I would have preferred an angled tine ,as opposed to the flat tine ,you would get ,more depth ,

Can that mobile phone of yours take videos ? a short video could be interesting to look at, but make shore you comb your hair first , .

@ Allgeier.

As FJ said you learn something every day ,when you said sprouts, I did think ,is it the same as mung beans for bean sprouts, then I thought no way ,wrong again.

Thank you

[farmerjo]

Hi FJ

Well, how did it go? the mk 2 subsoiler ,looking at that blade ,that should not bend ,just hope you can get the depth ,I would have preferred an angled tine ,as opposed to the flat tine ,you would get ,more depth ,

Can that mobile phone of yours take videos ? a short video could be interesting to look at, but make shore you comb your hair first , .

@ Allgeier.

As FJ said you learn something every day ,when you said sprouts, I did think ,is it the same as mung beans for bean sprouts, then I thought no way ,wrong again.

Thank you

Hi KS,

I'm the only one allowed to drive the tractor so shooting a video maybe difficult.

Might be able to get the wifey to do one.

Had a go today with it and digs in no worries(there's about 400 kilo's of weight all up),i buggered up with the height so only going in 15-16 inches.

Which according to P A YEOMANS,the famous aussie who invented keyline farming said was ok on the initial pass.(first year)

In his theory i think his tyne angle was 25 degrees.

All in all happy so far,only thing being is the mound made is bigger from the 2" width of the shank.

Will try and get a video in the next couple of days for ya.

Even the missus was chuffed as i ripped a tree line for her by the house.

[slapout]

The mark 2 shank looks exactly like the subsoilers provided to usa farmers back in the 1950's. The length from frame to

bottom of shank was about 3 foot and thats how deep it went if you let the frame down as low as possible. It was a good pull for

L or LA Case tractor.

We spaced the subsoiler about 4 foot away from prior pass for some reason, suggestion, govt. requirement, etc???

[loong]

Aren't the coloured seeds coated with a fungicide or pre-treatment for other diseases?

[goldfinger]

Aren't the coloured seeds coated with a fungicide or pre-treatment for other diseases?

I think thats the Point, maybe different colours from different factories?

[slapout]

Aren't the coloured seeds coated with a fungicide or pre-treatment for other diseases?

If I understand he is talking about the various colors on senflower seeds he is buying to plant for a sunflower crop. sprouts were mentioned but the color mentioned did not apply to the sprout which developed from the colored seed.

Seed grain if colored has been treated by the packager /seller for various forseeable problems encountered by the buyer,/farmer.

It may be a fungicide treatment, a treatment against worm , etc the color changes for the specific purpose that is a threat in the area and the seller should know which color is for prevention of what situation. Loong is correct based on my experience, but in Thailand all bets are off on being correct, based on experience.

[farmerjo]

Interesting,i know my corn seed is pickled because of the colour of seed(also written on the packet).

I haven't open a packet of sunflowers seeds for a while so don't know if there treated or not.

I remember we used to coat canola with a white powder but unsure what it was.

Barley and,Wheat used to be pickled various colours depending on who supplied the seed cleaning works..

[farmerjo]

The mark 2 shank looks exactly like the subsoilers provided to usa farmers back in the 1950's. The length from frame to

bottom of shank was about 3 foot and thats how deep it went if you let the frame down as low as possible. It was a good pull for

L or LA Case tractor.

We spaced the subsoiler about 4 foot away from prior pass for some reason, suggestion, govt. requirement, etc???

Did they use narrow points or winged points back then.

The winged points will give a greater disturbance area thus wider passes.

I've seen a couple of the last winged ones in Australia that were used just before clearing land was banned.

Mean bits of gear bringing huge rocks and tree stumps to the surface,most were pulled with dozers to avoid tyre punctures.

That was followed by a track scraper,an old dozer track on a triangle frame to windrow then a rockpicker would follow that to pick it all up.

I spent my fair share of hours on the track scraper and rockpicker as greater tyne breakout became the norm with minimum till seeding.

[slapout]

It was all narrow point. They were used on land already in cultivation for the past 50 years during a prolonged drought. The susposed

purpose was to creat a soakaway avenue for rainfall to be stored in, when it rained, instead of running down the gullies into the creeks, thus losing the run off for plant use.

In fact it was one of the first government attempts to get farmers to do as the govt. wanted. The farmer was paid to pull this concraption over his fields by the government to replace the income lost to crop failure due to drought. Like most government ideas that pertain to farming, the subsoiler proved to work the opposite way desired. The rains came and the ground subsoiled dried out faster, deeper, and did not improve yield. A few farmers cheated and did not subsoil the total acreage they applied for (they did not reduce their request for payment of course). After a true evaluation and apprasial by farmers I do not recall seeing another subsoiler unless it was being used for clearing land, until I came to Thailand and heard it being promoted by so called farmers here, on cultivated land.

[kickstart]

I have seen a lot of sunflower seed ,all commercial seed ,it is all black ,the seed dressing I think they still use is the same as they use on maize seed a pink colour ,you can see tinges of the seed dressing ,on the seeds .I am certain it would not be all violet or red, but we all know this is Thailand ,and who knows what goes on .

Back in the uk we use to dress our own seed ,using an organo phoshus seed dressing ,that turned the seed a pink colour . My misses use to work for CP ,they had a seed processing plant near here they used a pink seed dressing on maize seed ,she use to come home ,take her shoes and socks off ,her feet use to be pink .

include: O, O-Diethyl-O-4-nitrophenyl thiophosphate, diethyl parathion, diethyl-4-nitrophenyl phosphothionate, E605.

She just wrote the seed dressing down in Thai it was called Parathion ,and a look at Google it come up with the above all phoshus based ,which I thought was the same stuff we used back in the UK ,that will be will banned now for certain ,but here in Thailand ,according to my misses it is still used .

[farmerjo]

It was all narrow point. They were used on land already in cultivation for the past 50 years during a prolonged drought. The susposed

purpose was to creat a soakaway avenue for rainfall to be stored in, when it rained, instead of running down the gullies into the creeks, thus losing the run off for plant use.

In fact it was one of the first government attempts to get farmers to do as the govt. wanted. The farmer was paid to pull this concraption over his fields by the government to replace the income lost to crop failure due to drought. Like most government ideas that pertain to farming, the subsoiler proved to work the opposite way desired. The rains came and the ground subsoiled dried out faster, deeper, and did not improve yield. A few farmers cheated and did not subsoil the total acreage they applied for (they did not reduce their request for payment of course). After a true evaluation and apprasial by farmers I do not recall seeing another subsoiler unless it was being used for clearing land, until I came to Thailand and heard it being promoted by so called farmers here, on cultivated land.

Strip tilling seems to be big in the US these days,maybe times have changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2D2lsD0oZ4

What sort of annual rainfall were you on Slapout.

Were i come from on 14" rainfall there was no need for it although chisel ploughs played there part before 350,500,1000 lbs breakout tynes were made for seeding rigs to make one pass operations.

[kickstart]

The mark 2 shank looks exactly like the subsoilers provided to usa farmers back in the 1950's. The length from frame to

bottom of shank was about 3 foot and thats how deep it went if you let the frame down as low as possible. It was a good pull for

L or LA Case tractor.

We spaced the subsoiler about 4 foot away from prior pass for some reason, suggestion, govt. requirement, etc???

Did they use narrow points or winged points back then.

The winged points will give a greater disturbance area thus wider passes.

I've seen a couple of the last winged ones in Australia that were used just before clearing land was banned.

Mean bits of gear bringing huge rocks and tree stumps to the surface,most were pulled with dozers to avoid tyre punctures.

That was followed by a track scraper,an old dozer track on a triangle frame to windrow then a rockpicker would follow that to pick it all up.

I spent my fair share of hours on the track scraper and rockpicker as greater tyne breakout became the norm with minimum till seeding.

I have seen the winged subsoilers over here ,used by the sugar cane farmers ,to subsoil between the rows after harvest ,not a bad idea ,now a lot of farmers are using machines to cut the cane ,with the weight of machine ,a good few ton ,.plus the weight of the truck and trailer ,there was a lot of compaction in the field .

But , not having high carbon steel blades for the subsoiler ,just cut mild steel plate for the blade , and trying to pull 2 legs ,and a Ford / New Holland tractor that really up to the job ,they could not get the depth , and did not make a good job .

What I can remember about winged blades , they never caught on in the uk ,for some reason .

[slapout]

If we got 30 inches of rain at the right times we could raise 45 + bushel /acre hard red winter wheat.

I saw several 15 inch rainfall years , so you better have saved some from those 45 bushel years.

I think now on wheat they try to disk , and then cultivate and plant after crop is harvested. some may even try working the ground only twice including planting.

The GPS planting has actually added in some cases 5 acres of harvested crop on to a 160 acre field as far as total production. Its a young mans game as is the technology , planning, etc

[kickstart]

It was all narrow point. They were used on land already in cultivation for the past 50 years during a prolonged drought. The susposed

purpose was to creat a soakaway avenue for rainfall to be stored in, when it rained, instead of running down the gullies into the creeks, thus losing the run off for plant use.

In fact it was one of the first government attempts to get farmers to do as the govt. wanted. The farmer was paid to pull this concraption over his fields by the government to replace the income lost to crop failure due to drought. Like most government ideas that pertain to farming, the subsoiler proved to work the opposite way desired. The rains came and the ground subsoiled dried out faster, deeper, and did not improve yield. A few farmers cheated and did not subsoil the total acreage they applied for (they did not reduce their request for payment of course). After a true evaluation and apprasial by farmers I do not recall seeing another subsoiler unless it was being used for clearing land, until I came to Thailand and heard it being promoted by so called farmers here, on cultivated land.

Strip tilling seems to be big in the US these days,maybe times have changed.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2D2lsD0oZ4

What sort of annual rainfall were you on Slapout.

Were i come from on 14" rainfall there was no need for it although chisel ploughs played there part before 350,500,1000 lbs breakout tynes were made for seeding rigs to make one pass operations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAVz-2sHxQk

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Dv6tAvWp60

One pass drills are popular in the uk ,especially in the autumn trying to get a large acreage done before the weather brakes ,and with the cost of labour,it makes a lot of sense. This set up looks like a set of cultivator tines ,a power harrow, crumble bar ,and a pneumatic drill .

If some one could come up with a lot simpler set up for Thailand ,I think they could be one to something ,we all know how Thai's like to get things done quickly they would like a set up like this .

The second video , a one pass cultivator appealed to me ,being home made ,a smaller version could easily be made here , with all Ford tractors having spool valves ,the rest could be found .

[farmerjo]

If we got 30 inches of rain at the right times we could raise 45 + bushel /acre hard red winter wheat.

I saw several 15 inch rainfall years , so you better have saved some from those 45 bushel years.

I think now on wheat they try to disk , and then cultivate and plant after crop is harvested. some may even try working the ground only twice including planting.

The GPS planting has actually added in some cases 5 acres of harvested crop on to a 160 acre field as far as total production. Its a young mans game as is the technology , planning, etc

I drove my 1st tractor at 8 years old,a ford 5000 towing a 14 disc plough,we would work it up with the plough then scarify for weed control.

After that you would come in with a 20 row seeder,no chemicals in those days.

Grandad allways maintained it was the piggery that brought his 12 children up on the farm(1200 acres),not the sheep or cropping.

Cropping then started to change,one scarify then it would be my uncle on a the boomspray,grandad on the super spreader and me on the seed drill going around in tandem.Yields increased.

That then lead to 3 chemical knockdowns and a one pass seeding operation of today.Its amazing what yields they can grow now on the same country with the same rainfall.

Soil admendments are big business now with applications of lime and gypsum to keep fertility in the soil and the amount of new variety grains avalible.

We lost our farm(1500 acres) when i was 5 years old due to probate tax.When i finished my trade i went and worked for farmers for 7 years and after started my own agricultural company before moving to thailand.

Now i'm here doing it for myself i not afraid to try things to keep up with technology.I'm the R&D for the Thai's in my area.

No-till seeder,GPS,boomspray,harvester and the list goes on.

In my time here if i can see every 3 disc plough gone,i will be happy.

[Allgeier]

Aren't the coloured seeds coated with a fungicide or pre-treatment for other diseases?

I think this will be the answer.

But the gras grow faster than the sunflower. I should try again.

In organic Maize or Cornfarming. How there work to keep the weed down? I cant mulch everythink, or i must?

[wayned]

53 rai harvested last night. I don't know yield/rai yet as I went to bed! I'll find out later today.

[farmerjo]

Aren't the coloured seeds coated with a fungicide or pre-treatment for other diseases?

I think this will be the answer.

But the gras grow faster than the sunflower. I should try again.

In organic Maize or Cornfarming. How there work to keep the weed down? I cant mulch everythink, or i must?

Hi Allgeier,

How did you prepare your seedbed, (ie rotaryhoe)

And how did you plant your sunflowers (machine,sunflower seeds need really good soil contact because of there woody nature) and what spacings in between plants.

Is the grass growing faster because of slow germination of sunflower(no fertilizer,cooler weather) .

Without mulch your pretty much limited to mechanical weeding in between the rows.

Another option would be to lay rows of plastic down,poke holes in it for the seed to come through.

[kickstart]

Just been looking at Google ,Re row spacing's for sunflowers ,most seem to say 30 inch spacing's,some say 24 inch ,but as the same drill is used for corn as and sunflowers ,and on most drills ,you can not adjust the row spacing's very easy .

This year we do not have a lot of sunflowers , with it being such a difficult year ,everything late ,not many sunflowers ,what have been sown , are drilled , a 7 disc plough is used ,then drilled ,or direct drilled into corn stubble ,and a lot of crops are having a grass weed problem with the wide drill rows ,but sunflowers are a quick growing crop ,and should out grow the grass weeds .did see some one to day trying to hand hoe a weedy crop of sunflowers

Before drilling sunflowers became popular ,the main way of planting was by 7 disc plough and a seeder ,seeds dropping in front of the disc ,then the disc ,would bury the seed ,the crop never grow even ,so flowering was not even ,but with this method of planting ,they was very little problem with grass weeds ,the plants would form a carpet ,and block out any weeds , this is one of the few times ,for weed control, the old method was better the newer ways .

I have been trying to find a field sown by a 7 disc plough and seeder take some photos ,and do a compare and contrast ,saw one field been sown with a 7 disc plough 3-4 days ago .if it does something I will take some photos ,not easy now to find , most seem to use a drill

For weed control ,as FJ said mechanical weeding ,that set of spring tines ,with the hoe blades would do the job ,or some articles on the internet say spray between the rows ,that is all right ,but as I said ,with the high cost the seed ,and not a great return ,especially if the land is rented , a lot of farmers hands are tied regarding any expenditure .

[kickstart]

I was talking today ,to a farmer who is into Agri Tourism they put in a few rie of sunflowers ,and people come and visit them ,take a few photos,buy a few trinkets ,to do with sunflowers.

They said they next lot of sunflowers in bloom for joe public to look at will be ready on about H M King's birthday day ,a big Tee-oo,day for Thai's ,they said this year they have some red sunflowers ,seed coming from the USA ,they showed me some photos and they looked a lot like this photo (this one come from the net), I asked what color where the seed .she said red ,they are also growing some white sunflowers ,again seed coming from the US.

So our . Allgeier and his red and violet sunflower seeds ,might get something like this , the red I can understand ,the violet,I have my doubts they are pictures of violet sunflowers on the net , but only buying 100gm seed packets, they could be a specialist seed ,and not a commercial seed , who knows , the red and violet still could be seed dressing, we will have to wait and see.

[farmerjo]

53 rai harvested last night. I don't know yield/rai yet as I went to bed! I'll find out later today.

DSC01129.JPG

You out of bed yet Wayned

[wayned]

Barely! It's been a bit hectic here,. Already used up the five rings in the circus and am about to install the sixth. The storm damage from a couple of weeks ago was a lot worse than originally expected and a lot of the fields are having to be harvested by hand. Some, part combine and part by hand. My harvest, so far, was done by both machine and hand with full cobs and good yeild. It worked out to be about 1267 kilos/rai for the 53 rai that has been harvested by machine. But the average moisture content is 34% so by the time it is dried to 15% the shrinkage and handling loss will reduce that to about 976 kilos/rai. ((100/85 = 1.1764, 1.1764 x 19 = 22.35. 22.35 + 0.5 = 22.85% (total loss, shrinkage + handling), 77% x 1267 = 975.59)). However due to the amount of corn that we are buying on the cob (hand harvested) we have to sell off the shelled corn prior to drying (6.1 baht/kilo at 34%) as we don't have enough storage area.

[farmerjo]

Barely! It's been a bit hectic here,. Already used up the five rings in the circus and am about to install the sixth. The storm damage from a couple of weeks ago was a lot worse than originally expected and a lot of the fields are having to be harvested by hand. Some, part combine and part by hand. My harvest, so far, was done by both machine and hand with full cobs and good yeild. It worked out to be about 1267 kilos/rai for the 53 rai that has been harvested by machine. But the average moisture content is 34% so by the time it is dried to 15% the shrinkage and handling loss will reduce that to about 976 kilos/rai. ((100/85 = 1.1764, 1.1764 x 19 = 22.35. 22.35 + 0.5 = 22.85% (total loss, shrinkage + handling), 77% x 1267 = 975.59)). However due to the amount of corn that we are buying on the cob (hand harvested) we have to sell off the shelled corn prior to drying (6.1 baht/kilo at 34%) as we don't have enough storage area.

Well done with the yield Wayned

I think you owe your BIL a couple of glasses of your finest.

Wish you well for the rest of harvest.

[farmerjo]

Well its that time of year and spent all day yesterday on the spray rig,spray topping weeds to stop them setting seed.

Its something i've been a bit slack on in previous seasons.

Would normally use paraquat for this but had enough glysophate in the shed so used that.

I applied it at 350ml/rai,fingers crossed the rate was heavy enough or may have to do another pass over it.

The missed areas should be minimal now i've got the gps sorted out.

Here is the result after one week of the spray topping to stop weeds setting seed.

So the rate was successful.