Maize and Rotational Crops

[cobbler]

Yes its a ryzone so has potential to take over other plants. However i know it can be planted in australia in north ,mixed with other grasses for cattle feed

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[cobbler]

I feel for u guys itd make u a lot more money than corn. Ide be seriously checkin it out

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[farmerjo]

Took some pics yesterday of some sunn hemp.

43 days old and getting quite a few nodules on the roots.

Had 10"s of rain in month prior to planting and a further 20"s since it was planted.

It has survived well on the better soils but some areas that amount of rain has come to the surface and wiped a few areas out.

 

[kickstart]

On 17/10/2017 at 7:36 PM, Michael Hare said:

I will say this very plainly. Anyone growing Napier grass for silage is nuts. Really nuts. Unfortunately, Napier grass is being promoted as a great grass throughout Southeast Asia, purely upon the amount of dry matter it produces. However, this vast amount of dry matter is mainly stem (low in crude protein and high in fibre ADF and NDF). No where, is there any scientific data backing up the value of Napier grass silage. I feel very sorry for anyone buying this Napier grass silage. No better than smelly compost.

 

Furthermore, Napier grass fields due to disease, last only for 1-2 years before dying. 

 

There are far superior tropical grasses around in Thailand  that make great silage and hay. Namely Mombasa guinea grass and Mulato II. These fields, once planted, last for 10 years or more. 

 

 

I agree with you yes and no,I have written before we make Nappier grass silage, and have done for 4-5 years ,we only have 1 1/2 rie ,but last year   we made 400 bags at 25 kg a bag , which my back of a fag packet calculation said it made  10 ton ,that is with a  30 hour  wilt ,add another 15% for fresh weight ? last year we applied 2 bags of 45% urea , plus  a few ton of cow manure ,we cut at  no more than 60 -70 days ,but last year the gods were not with us we had 2 cuts where we had to throw away at least 30 % of the crop, got to old all stem no leaf  must have been 90 day old ,also , as we say in the UK it Lodged, with the heavy  rain , the crop went down making  it a pig of a job to cut , as the wife said more than once ,she would,"Toll-Gun--Moie" ,like  pubic hair, a tangled mess.

My sward is in its 4th year and still growing well ,one problem I do have is in the new re-growth ,I think is a form of the fungal disease smut ?, the leaves have brown patches on , but as it gets to 2-3 foot tall it disappears ,yield does not seem to be effected 

This year with less cattle we have had 3 cuts at no more than 60 days ,some very good silage , 1st cut was not so good to wet, as you said with high DM, it looks like we will get half a crop for a 4th cut , I have said before ,it works for us ,also we have  limited land .

Nappier grass has to be managed well, it likes urea fertilizer ,and organic matter ,and must be cut at no more than 60 days  old ,any older you will get a crop with more stem than leaf .

But here in Thailand ,Thais think of bulk only and not quality, do  use a regular application of urea, apply one dose at the start of the season ,then no more ,they take one cut , second cut grows slowly ,and soon get stemy and old,and as Michal said low feed quality, especially the ME value.

Well on the minus side  we have a dairy co-op near here  trying to get up to 300 milking cows , they never will, they feed on a TMR system , that is Total Mixed Ration ,all the feed is put in  a mixer wagon ,and feed to the cow in the yard,no feeding in the  milking parlor  ,they are using  Nappier grass silage ,they have 3 clamps of silage, grass that is 90 day old plus , direct chop, no wilting, no rolling of the clamp ,milk yield is 10-12 kg / cow /day, not a lot , break even point is 10Kg/cow/day,and thay have big infertility  problem, a system that does not work.

Last month a TV member wrote  about trying to get some clumps of natral grass out of his  Mulato II grass using roundup (forget the debate about round up ),I wrote ,so did FJ,about this guys management of his Mulato II grass,was it suited to his land ,was it over grazed ,I wrote I would love to grow Mulato II but my land is just to wet ,black ex rice paddeys ,I have sub soiled it ,but with 490 mm of rain in 2 months ,it was geting a bit waterloged ,and I am certain Mullato  II would have died,but my Nappier just kept growing ,hence us throwing away 30%,at times plus,on our first cut 

I am tempted to try Mobass Guinea, we have some Purple Guinea about the place that seems to thrive ,if Mombasa is like Purple  Guinea.

PS Being trying to upload some photographs,for some reason TV's system wil not let me 

 

[Ron19]

If anyone is having trouble uploading it appears to be caused by a problem associated

with the choose files option that won't allow any file larger than 130kb to upload.

It is being worked on by Invision to correct the situation but in the meantime please 

try one of the other options in the link below.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/942998-posting-images-on-to-a-thread/

 

Anything you need should only be on the 1st page.

[farmerjo]

2 hours ago, Ron19 said:

If anyone is having trouble uploading it appears to be caused by a problem associated

with the choose files option that won't allow any file larger than 130kb to upload.

It is being worked on by Invision to correct the situation but in the meantime please 

try one of the other options in the link below.

 

https://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/942998-posting-images-on-to-a-thread/

 

Anything you need should only be on the 1st page.

Thanks Ron.

The way i overcame it was take pic on phone,transfer to pc in smallest format.

Then use the link to break it down further.

Ok for a temporary solution but couldn't do it that way all the time.

http://compressjpeg.com/   

[cobbler]

FJ maybe if no money in corn,try maybe 1 of these grasses. Either buy a few cows or just sell it direct to somebody. I know farmers in thai and u would also who make good coin. For sure there would be something suited to your area.. just an idea,not that u need me to tell u,
Cheers cobbler

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[farmerjo]

12 minutes ago, cobbler said:

FJ maybe if no money in corn,try maybe 1 of these grasses. Either buy a few cows or just sell it direct to somebody. I know farmers in thai and u would also who make good coin. For sure there would be something suited to your area.. just an idea,not that u need me to tell u,
Cheers cobbler

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There are plenty of ways to make money off 100 rai,but 1st you have to get off your backside and work.

Learnt a long time ago if you pay for general labour your profits are gone.

There in lies my problem,happy to plant,spray and harvest myself but it's the manual labour tasks i let slip.

For example today i've been out grading the local roads cause i'm sick of the potholes,FIL is whipper snipping the banks around a 6 rai rice field,now where the money is made is inside the field but no one is there picking weeds or fertilizing.All looks good but little profit.(i need a generation change from FIL to a young qualified mechanic who can operate machinery as well as some whipper snipping and back pack spraying activities whose keen to learn agriculture)

That problem will somewhat be alleviated next year making one big field and the purchase of a 3pl fertilizer spreader.

But the cost of diesel to make the field and purchase cost of spreader will once again out way what i make.

In a few years when the stars align there will be good money to make,just not at the moment.

I think the best way forward for me is the seed business,but before i dive into a contract i'm still working the senario's out,when to plant,seed rates and spacings,herbicides and insecticides and getting the 100 rai fully irrigated.

 

 

On the cows,had 35 when i 1st came here,only way i would do them again is from paddock to plate(breed,kill,sell meat)Would be a big ask to convince the Mrs to have another go at them.

 

 

[cobbler]

Hmmmmmm thats a bit of a worry

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[farmerjo]

28 minutes ago, cobbler said:

Hmmmmmm thats a bit of a worry

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Not when your on 40 acres with the neighbours 600 metres away,it's bliss.

[cobbler]

Fj is the only reason youd do cows again would be from paddock to plate. Is it because u felt the only profit was in the butchering part of it?
I really appreciate your total honesty. However its very scarey to think you can just crop year in year out for no profit. All thatll happen is 1 day youll have a worn out tractor. I cant see myself going down that road . I only do stuff to make money.
I know my wife has told me corn is very difficultvto make profit from. Its more to build soil quality. Im wondering though why grow it year in and year outb then when 2 rai of peppercorns with irrigation on it will make good money.
Ive seen brahman bulls selling at 1 year old for 40k . It took 2 years to get itvto that stage but from 40 breeders youve gotta be able to make money. Use a cut and carry method . Only problem is theyve got to be fed every bloody day. But if u have enough of them just put on a worker and pay 250 to 300 bart per day. Let them do it.
Maybe in certain areas its difficult to get the decent prices for whatever is grown . The 7 asian nations are opening in 2 years and there r massive opportunities in thailand to make money in the farming sector.Thailand is at the crossroads, perfectly situated.
I know farmers in the sukhothai area farmers now have presold backyard bananas which wouldve years ago rotted on the trees or given away . This is all due to the world having an exploding population and its got to eat every single day.
1 guy with cows who always had 30 rai of rice not making much money , has now with his cows sold a few of his cows and bought a kabotta tractor and equipment needed for rice farming. So hes obviously making money.i see many more tractors around where before there were very few. My point being that these people arnt farang brining in outside money. They are local thais.
Please feel free to tell me ive got no idea <deleted> im talking about and explain overheads figures to me on maybe cows or rice farming to show theres no profit. Im all ears.

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[cobbler]

Farmerjo did u have native thai cattle. I feel these due to there size and still taking same time to grow as a large cow would not be anywhere near as good money as say a Brahman or droughtmaster or other heavey breeds.
Another thing im thinking is. I see thais with 50,100 or thousand rai. These people are employing staff so obviously are making money.otherwise wouldnt be doing it. Theyd sell all there land and buy 7/11 stores or something..
Just food for thought.
Cheers Cobbler

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[farmerjo]

4 hours ago, cobbler said:

Fj is the only reason youd do cows again would be from paddock to plate. Is it because u felt the only profit was in the butchering part of it?
I really appreciate your total honesty. However its very scarey to think you can just crop year in year out for no profit. All thatll happen is 1 day youll have a worn out tractor. I cant see myself going down that road . I only do stuff to make money.
I know my wife has told me corn is very difficultvto make profit from. Its more to build soil quality. Im wondering though why grow it year in and year outb then when 2 rai of peppercorns with irrigation on it will make good money.
Ive seen brahman bulls selling at 1 year old for 40k . It took 2 years to get itvto that stage but from 40 breeders youve gotta be able to make money. Use a cut and carry method . Only problem is theyve got to be fed every bloody day. But if u have enough of them just put on a worker and pay 250 to 300 bart per day. Let them do it.
Maybe in certain areas its difficult to get the decent prices for whatever is grown . The 7 asian nations are opening in 2 years and there r massive opportunities in thailand to make money in the farming sector.Thailand is at the crossroads, perfectly situated.
I know farmers in the sukhothai area farmers now have presold backyard bananas which wouldve years ago rotted on the trees or given away . This is all due to the world having an exploding population and its got to eat every single day.
1 guy with cows who always had 30 rai of rice not making much money , has now with his cows sold a few of his cows and bought a kabotta tractor and equipment needed for rice farming. So hes obviously making money.i see many more tractors around where before there were very few. My point being that these people arnt farang brining in outside money. They are local thais.
Please feel free to tell me ive got no idea <deleted> im talking about and explain overheads figures to me on maybe cows or rice farming to show theres no profit. Im all ears.

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Hi Cobbler,

Out in the sticks your local buyers/sellers market have you by the short and curlys.

I had Thai native cattle with the long ears but don't think breed would have made a difference.

On the labour side if a Thai works for a Thai they seem punctual,when they work for me they tend to turn up and leave when they like but are always there for the lunch and the mid day knap.

When we talk profit,a farangs profit is different to a Thais profit because our average living expenses are poles apart.

Some might say why not just rent my land  out(have people knocking on the door everyday)150,000 in the pocket for doing nothing.For me the stress of having people come and go on my land and having no control would drive me insane.Sounds funny but true.

On a rice field if you made 3000 baht/rai which can be done,would you be happy with a profit of 30,000 baht off 10 rai for the reward of your labour or would you need 100,000. 

Sorry still no closer to giving you the answer of that magic money making crop but if you like bending over all day

the peppercorns  and vegies will win hands down over your more agricultural crops.  

 

[Michael Hare]

On 10/18/2017 at 8:42 PM, cobbler said:

Yes its a ryzone so has potential to take over other plants. However i know it can be planted in australia in north ,mixed with other grasses for cattle feed

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I think you are referring to Mombasa guinea grass. It doesn't have rhizomes. It is a bunch grass. In northern Australia they do have guinea grass cultivars but not Mombasa. Mombasa is prohibited entry into Australia, along with all other tropical pasture grasses. The only way a new tropical grass can enter Australia is to get an import licence to import 100 grams. This goes straight into quarantine. From there the plants are grown out from the seed, inspected for every kind of disease etc. If all tests are passed, then seed can be gathered from these plants and move into seed production. As you can see it takes years. An example is Mulato II. First entered into the Australian quarantine system way back in about 2004-5. Mulato II cleared all requirements and was released in Australia. However, the Australian seed growers up on the Atherton tablelands have not been able to produce good seed yields and any seed produced has had very low germination. And so after all these years, cattle growers in Northern Australia still can not buy Mulato II seed. I doubt if Mombasa guinea grass will ever be produced in Australia. Too many obstacles. 

[Michael Hare]

21 hours ago, kickstart said:

I agree with you yes and no,I have written before we make Nappier grass silage, and have done for 4-5 years ,we only have 1 1/2 rie ,but last year   we made 400 bags at 25 kg a bag , which my back of a fag packet calculation said it made  10 ton ,that is with a  30 hour  wilt ,add another 15% for fresh weight ? last year we applied 2 bags of 45% urea , plus  a few ton of cow manure ,we cut at  no more than 60 -70 days ,but last year the gods were not with us we had 2 cuts where we had to throw away at least 30 % of the crop, got to old all stem no leaf  must have been 90 day old ,also , as we say in the UK it Lodged, with the heavy  rain , the crop went down making  it a pig of a job to cut , as the wife said more than once ,she would,"Toll-Gun--Moie" ,like  pubic hair, a tangled mess.

My sward is in its 4th year and still growing well ,one problem I do have is in the new re-growth ,I think is a form of the fungal disease smut ?, the leaves have brown patches on , but as it gets to 2-3 foot tall it disappears ,yield does not seem to be effected 

This year with less cattle we have had 3 cuts at no more than 60 days ,some very good silage , 1st cut was not so good to wet, as you said with high DM, it looks like we will get half a crop for a 4th cut , I have said before ,it works for us ,also we have  limited land .

Nappier grass has to be managed well, it likes urea fertilizer ,and organic matter ,and must be cut at no more than 60 days  old ,any older you will get a crop with more stem than leaf .

But here in Thailand ,Thais think of bulk only and not quality, do  use a regular application of urea, apply one dose at the start of the season ,then no more ,they take one cut , second cut grows slowly ,and soon get stemy and old,and as Michal said low feed quality, especially the ME value.

Well on the minus side  we have a dairy co-op near here  trying to get up to 300 milking cows , they never will, they feed on a TMR system , that is Total Mixed Ration ,all the feed is put in  a mixer wagon ,and feed to the cow in the yard,no feeding in the  milking parlor  ,they are using  Nappier grass silage ,they have 3 clamps of silage, grass that is 90 day old plus , direct chop, no wilting, no rolling of the clamp ,milk yield is 10-12 kg / cow /day, not a lot , break even point is 10Kg/cow/day,and thay have big infertility  problem, a system that does not work.

Last month a TV member wrote  about trying to get some clumps of natral grass out of his  Mulato II grass using roundup (forget the debate about round up ),I wrote ,so did FJ,about this guys management of his Mulato II grass,was it suited to his land ,was it over grazed ,I wrote I would love to grow Mulato II but my land is just to wet ,black ex rice paddeys ,I have sub soiled it ,but with 490 mm of rain in 2 months ,it was geting a bit waterloged ,and I am certain Mullato  II would have died,but my Nappier just kept growing ,hence us throwing away 30%,at times plus,on our first cut 

I am tempted to try Mobass Guinea, we have some Purple Guinea about the place that seems to thrive ,if Mombasa is like Purple  Guinea.

PS Being trying to upload some photographs,for some reason TV's system wil not let me 

 

I am pleased to know that your Napier grass thrives on your heavy soils. I presume it is Pakchong napier, the hybrid? There many types of Napier grass around. My main pasture experience is in northeast Thailand on light sandy soils, low pH and lacking in most elements. On these soils Napier grass does not grow well.

 

Letting Napier grass grow for 90 days before cutting is a very common management practice throughout Southeast Asia. In Vietnam the farmers have to put the 90 day old Napier grass through choppers to break the dry matter up before the cows can ever chew it. It is impossible to convince the farmers to cut at a younger age of 40-45 days or  when it reaches knee height and not over-your-head height.

 

Interesting that Purple guinea grows on your wet soils. Usually Purple guinea won't. Mombasa is superior to Purple guinea in that it produces 20-25% more dry matter and more leaf. These days in Thailand Purple guinea is getting leaf diseases (rust on the leaves) which lowers production. Mombasa is disease-free so far.

 

I am getting ready to release another guinea grass cultivar into the Thai market. This is similar to Mombasa but has more leaves and much softer leaves which makes it more palatable. Also slightly higher in crude protein than Mombasa. I have named it Mun River guinea grass after the Mun river that runs through Ubon. The first seed harvest has just started and hopefully we will have some seed to sell next year. 

[cobbler]

Great stuff guys ,very interesting.

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[Michael Hare]

On 10/19/2017 at 9:35 AM, farmerjo said:

Took some pics yesterday of some sunn hemp.

43 days old and getting quite a few nodules on the roots.

Had 10"s of rain in month prior to planting and a further 20"s since it was planted.

It has survived well on the better soils but some areas that amount of rain has come to the surface and wiped a few areas out.

 

From looking closely at the leaves, are those white spots on the leaves aphids? I have been trialling three sunnhemp cultivars here in Ubon, AU Golden and Tropsunn from the USA and the Thai variety which we now call Crescent Sunn. Aphids have all but destroyed my wet season trial plots. Will now plant again for dry season production.

 

The nodules look very healthy. Tremendous interest in growing Sunnhemp world-wide as a green manure. Our seed production targets this coming season is 300,000 kg of non-organic sunnhemp seed and 60,000 kg of organic sunnhemp seed. Most seed will go the the USA and Spain. New markets are opening up in other countries but first of the Pest Risk Analysis has to be done. 

[cobbler]

Hi Cobbler,
Out in the sticks your local buyers/sellers market have you by the short and curlys.
I had Thai native cattle with the long ears but don't think breed would have made a difference.
On the labour side if a Thai works for a Thai they seem punctual,when they work for me they tend to turn up and leave when they like but are always there for the lunch and the mid day knap.
When we talk profit,a farangs profit is different to a Thais profit because our average living expenses are poles apart.
Some might say why not just rent my land  out(have people knocking on the door everyday)150,000 in the pocket for doing nothing.For me the stress of having people come and go on my land and having no control would drive me insane.Sounds funny but true.
On a rice field if you made 3000 baht/rai which can be done,would you be happy with a profit of 30,000 baht off 10 rai for the reward of your labour or would you need 100,000. 
Sorry still no closer to giving you the answer of that magic money making crop but if you like bending over all day
the peppercorns  and vegies will win hands down over your more agricultural crops.  
 

Fj thats awsome . Youve pretty well reconfirmed what i was thinking. You not being a critic just honest. I was giggling all the way through your post as i was reading it.
Farmers are a breed apart from other types of business people. Its a labor of love/live in hope type thing. [emoji16]
As for my guinea grass,bapier ,mombassa. So sorry ive read so much on it all ive lost it in my head. Very interesting seeing your experiences on it.
Keep it coming guys im lovin it.
Cheers cobbler

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[farmerjo]

44 minutes ago, Michael Hare said:

From looking closely at the leaves, are those white spots on the leaves aphids? I have been trialling three sunnhemp cultivars here in Ubon, AU Golden and Tropsunn from the USA and the Thai variety which we now call Crescent Sunn. Aphids have all but destroyed my wet season trial plots. Will now plant again for dry season production.

 

The nodules look very healthy. Tremendous interest in growing Sunnhemp world-wide as a green manure. Our seed production targets this coming season is 300,000 kg of non-organic sunnhemp seed and 60,000 kg of organic sunnhemp seed. Most seed will go the the USA and Spain. New markets are opening up in other countries but first of the Pest Risk Analysis has to be done. 

Hi Michael,

There actually water spots but hard to tell as i had to reduce picture quality from 5mb to 125kb just to get it to work.

There is something eating away at the leaves,seen a few that look like snails and cutworm and plenty of what i thought were mites in the earlier stages,

The last lot i planted has survived on higher ground but failed in the lower areas which i put down to smearing of the seed trench and lack of oxygen.What is there will come into flower to early. 

It's interesting to note as well that there are many different varieties of weeds in with the sunn hemp but i cannot find any damage to any leaves other than the sunn hemp.I thought having a few weeds would take the insect load of the sunn hemp to get it established but not the case.

Yes i am looking forward  also to the dry season,you have a lot more control over the plants.

As a lazy farmer i enjoy working with the sunn hemp,it has a lot of advantages over other crops here and think it's my crop of choice going forward. 

[wayned]

Many moons ago my wife decided that I was going to be a pig farmer.  Built the pens, the water, poop and feed distribution systems.  Our first lot of piglets was 50.  Every time we sold the pigs the pork prices were down and two weeks later when we bought new piglets the pork prices were up.   The price of feed just kept rising and my wife was coned in to being the "local" storage and distributor for the feed company.  Of course it was not consigned, she (I) had to pay for it up front and she sold it for 10 baht a bag more than I paid for it, and guess who had to load it when somebody came to buy it.  We never made any money and I let it go on for a few years until she tired of cleaning the pens everyday.  It's funny because when we quit all of the local farmers also quit and the pig supplier moved on to con some other gullible  people.  The only way that we could make any money was to do the whole operation from breeding to butchering including mixing our own feed. I still have room for 50 pigs but I would have to find another place to store all of the junk that has accumulated over the years.

 

The corn did well this year but the price was down due to the high yields and the sugar cane is doing real well but I expect the same thing to happen with the price when it is harvested.  If everybody around here switched to guinea grass, I would have my work cut out for me engineering a modification to the JD combines to turn them into cutters and balers as I don't think that John Deere has a modification kit!

[kickstart]

4 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

I am pleased to know that your Napier grass thrives on your heavy soils. I presume it is Pakchong napier, the hybrid? There many types of Napier grass around. My main pasture experience is in northeast Thailand on light sandy soils, low pH and lacking in most elements. On these soils Napier grass does not grow well.

 

Letting Napier grass grow for 90 days before cutting is a very common management practice throughout Southeast Asia. In Vietnam the farmers have to put the 90 day old Napier grass through choppers to break the dry matter up before the cows can ever chew it. It is impossible to convince the farmers to cut at a younger age of 40-45 days or  when it reaches knee height and not over-your-head height.

 

Interesting that Purple guinea grows on your wet soils. Usually Purple guinea won't. Mombasa is superior to Purple guinea in that it produces 20-25% more dry matter and more leaf. These days in Thailand Purple guinea is getting leaf diseases (rust on the leaves) which lowers production. Mombasa is disease-free so far.

 

I am getting ready to release another guinea grass cultivar into the Thai market. This is similar to Mombasa but has more leaves and much softer leaves which makes it more palatable. Also slightly higher in crude protein than Mombasa. I have named it Mun River guinea grass after the Mun river that runs through Ubon. The first seed harvest has just started and hopefully we will have some seed to sell next year. 

Michale, thanks for the reply, I  should have said ,my Nappier grass is  Nappier Taiwan, I got the rootstock from a Thai friend of mine about 6 years  ago .You asked about Nappier Packchon ,I live not so far from the DPO at Mortlec, Saraburi ,and I am often up there , they are in to Nappier grass in a big way ,ploughed out most of they Ruzie, and Guinne ,and are planting Nappier Packchon II ,and that have started feeding the cows on a TMR system (Not a good  idea in Thailand,thay have not got the management expertise ), anyway ,I got some of their Nappier Packchon  II and planted a small bed ,it grew quicker than my Taiwan ,stems a lot thicker ,higher yield,we cut it and  did our usual 30 hour willt ,chopped it ,noticed most bags weighed about 25 -30 kg,Taiwan never more than 25 kg ,left it 6 weeks ,opened  some of the bags , about 40% compost and very wet  ,with the thicker stems ,a 30 hour wilt was not enough,just to wet to ferment in to silage ,went the other way in to compost ,as I said we have struggled at times with a 30 hour wilt when the  weather is wet a 48 hour wilt would be best ,very difficult  ( in the UK you make hay when the sun shines, here in Thailand you make silage when it rains, grass is growing,) .

So now we have tryed twice  at making silage with Packchon  II ,same results ,so now we let get to  50-60 days cut and feed it fresh ,with "Gratin" Leucaena Leucocephala, the tree legume ,evon at 50 day fed fresh ,not choped ,cattle still will not eat the stems ,to hard ,must waist 30-40%.,got a small irrigation system ,will water it dueing the dry season, give the cattle a bit for fresh grass to eat then.

In this area  nearly all Nappier is Packchon II, our local co-op now milking about 110 cows, feeding they TMR, with wet direct cut Nappier silage, what the cows  DMI ,Dry Matter Intake, is I dare not think,  no  wonder they are not   giving any milk, and  management is not good, and wait for it ,they borrowed 150 million baht  from the Govenment savings bank , to buy the cows and set it all up,the bank will never see that money again . 

I am certain our success, is  all the organic matter applied, cow manure  , most reference books say  Nappier grass needs 300 units of urea a year ,that is about 110 kg we used less than 2 bags  of 45% urea  last year , and no P  and  K ,I think  cow manure  provides most  of the P and K, I have thought we could almost go organic ,but with the cow  manua comes weed seeds,I have some weed grass ,and in one patch a bad  area of bind weed ,that will need some sorting out with round up .

As I said Thai's think of quantity, not quality ,that is why Nappier is popular properly managed ,most of Michale's grasses would grow well  around here better than Nappier  , properly managed grass, would reduce an expencive concentrat bill ,the biggest  expence  on a Thai dairy farm  along with indigestible rice straw , improve conception rate,reduce digestive problems , cows eating  to much concentrate ,especially  after calving , so in the  long run making them more money ,but as we know , change is not a well used Thai word so, for now, they will continue to bodge along as before ,and for the for seeable  future .

 

[kickstart]

6 hours ago, wayned said:

Many moons ago my wife decided that I was going to be a pig farmer.  Built the pens, the water, poop and feed distribution systems.  Our first lot of piglets was 50.  Every time we sold the pigs the pork prices were down and two weeks later when we bought new piglets the pork prices were up.   The price of feed just kept rising and my wife was coned in to being the "local" storage and distributor for the feed company.  Of course it was not consigned, she (I) had to pay for it up front and she sold it for 10 baht a bag more than I paid for it, and guess who had to load it when somebody came to buy it.  We never made any money and I let it go on for a few years until she tired of cleaning the pens everyday.  It's funny because when we quit all of the local farmers also quit and the pig supplier moved on to con some other gullible  people.  The only way that we could make any money was to do the whole operation from breeding to butchering including mixing our own feed. I still have room for 50 pigs but I would have to find another place to store all of the junk that has accumulated over the years.

 

The corn did well this year but the price was down due to the high yields and the sugar cane is doing real well but I expect the same thing to happen with the price when it is harvested.  If everybody around here switched to guinea grass, I would have my work cut out for me engineering a modification to the JD combines to turn them into cutters and balers as I don't think that John Deere has a modification kit!

HI wanyed

                   A lot of farmers around here have tried pigs ,as you say the price goes up and down ,like a hog on the job, no pun intended, they are more redundant pig pens about than being used , TV's Pigeon Jake did well rearing , butchering, and selling his own stock.

Sugarcane around here , like you, is looking  well ,but as one farmer said ,all the rain they is the quantity, but the sugar content is low ,it needs some sun on it ,to push the sugar up ,as for price I think  a lot of it is to do with fuel prices than world sugar prices ,a lot  of the molasses ,is mixed with cassava and yeast ,to make alcohol ,for gasohol , and  molasses is fermented in to alcohol, out local sugar mill has a plant , that produces its own  alcohol ,from molasses, again for gasohol.

As for the Guinea grass ,if every one changed ,buy a mower ,a grass turner and a big baler ,and make it in to hay ,and send it down to Lopburi ,or Sarlabri ,plenty of cows that will eat it .

 

[farmerjo]

Hi KS,

Went for a ride to local hardware shop today and there's another weigh station for sugar going in.

Sugar has been a good ride for farmers around here for last 10 years,has basically rid them of bad dept to loan sharks and generally improved the lives of the whole community.

I do hope the prices stay reasonable for the long term as there has been a lot of investment in the area with regards to weigh stations,trucks with triaxle trailers,tractors with grabs for loading and tractors and implements pertaining to sugar planting and maintenance.

The crops look great but as you say the CCS could be down or up from the rainfall.At the end of the day it doesn't affect most of the farmers here as they sell to these weigh stations on a per ton basis for cash ,not quality.They lose a bit with price but enables the smaller guys to cut 2-3 ton a day and deliver with their iron buffalo giving an income stream for a 2-3 month period.

 

[Michael Hare]

2 hours ago, kickstart said:

Michale, thanks for the reply, I  should have said ,my Nappier grass is  Nappier Taiwan, I got the rootstock from a Thai friend of mine about 6 years  ago .You asked about Nappier Packchon ,I live not so far from the DPO at Mortlec, Saraburi ,and I am often up there , they are in to Nappier grass in a big way ,ploughed out most of they Ruzie, and Guinne ,and are planting Nappier Packchon II ,and that have started feeding the cows on a TMR system (Not a good  idea in Thailand,thay have not got the management expertise ), anyway ,I got some of their Nappier Packchon  II and planted a small bed ,it grew quicker than my Taiwan ,stems a lot thicker ,higher yield,we cut it and  did our usual 30 hour willt ,chopped it ,noticed most bags weighed about 25 -30 kg,Taiwan never more than 25 kg ,left it 6 weeks ,opened  some of the bags , about 40% compost and very wet  ,with the thicker stems ,a 30 hour wilt was not enough,just to wet to ferment in to silage ,went the other way in to compost ,as I said we have struggled at times with a 30 hour wilt when the  weather is wet a 48 hour wilt would be best ,very difficult  ( in the UK you make hay when the sun shines, here in Thailand you make silage when it rains, grass is growing,) .

So now we have tryed twice  at making silage with Packchon  II ,same results ,so now we let get to  50-60 days cut and feed it fresh ,with "Gratin" Leucaena Leucocephala, the tree legume ,evon at 50 day fed fresh ,not choped ,cattle still will not eat the stems ,to hard ,must waist 30-40%.,got a small irrigation system ,will water it dueing the dry season, give the cattle a bit for fresh grass to eat then.

In this area  nearly all Nappier is Packchon II, our local co-op now milking about 110 cows, feeding they TMR, with wet direct cut Nappier silage, what the cows  DMI ,Dry Matter Intake, is I dare not think,  no  wonder they are not   giving any milk, and  management is not good, and wait for it ,they borrowed 150 million baht  from the Govenment savings bank , to buy the cows and set it all up,the bank will never see that money again . 

I am certain our success, is  all the organic matter applied, cow manure  , most reference books say  Nappier grass needs 300 units of urea a year ,that is about 110 kg we used less than 2 bags  of 45% urea  last year , and no P  and  K ,I think  cow manure  provides most  of the P and K, I have thought we could almost go organic ,but with the cow  manua comes weed seeds,I have some weed grass ,and in one patch a bad  area of bind weed ,that will need some sorting out with round up .

As I said Thai's think of quantity, not quality ,that is why Nappier is popular properly managed ,most of Michale's grasses would grow well  around here better than Nappier  , properly managed grass, would reduce an expencive concentrat bill ,the biggest  expence  on a Thai dairy farm  along with indigestible rice straw , improve conception rate,reduce digestive problems , cows eating  to much concentrate ,especially  after calving , so in the  long run making them more money ,but as we know , change is not a well used Thai word so, for now, they will continue to bodge along as before ,and for the for seeable  future .

 

Thank you for those very enlightening comments about trying to make silage from Napier grass. I really think the people in the Livestock Department should be brought to justice about this bad promotion of Napier grass. Almost like Yingluck and the rice scheme. 

 

In nearly all other developing and developed tropical countries, no one uses Napier grass-either for fresh forage or hay. It is just too stemmy.

 

On your wet soils you may like to try Ubon paspalum. Tolerates waterlogging. One must cut it in the wet season every 40-45 days, otherwise it too will become very stemmy.

 

I am very disappointed to read you news about Muaklek. I first visited there in 1974. Some years ago research from Muaklek showed that dairy cows grazing a mixed pasture of hamata stylo and ruzi grass without any concentrate (TMR), produced 9-10 litres of milk per day. But they had to graze day and night except for milking times.  In my small trials here in Ubon, we got over 10 litres/cow/day on just grazing good legume-grass pastures day and night. No concentrate whatsoever.

 

But to tell Thai farmers and extension officers that a good diet of fresh grass and legume is far better economically than feeding expensive TMR is a waste of time. One might as well talk to a tree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[kickstart]

Hi FJ

It is like chalk and cheese, I forgot that you have your weigh statins ,I like the idea ,just cut 2-3 ton a day , around here we just do not have them ,the small farmers ,get's one of the bigger growers in to do all the work ,a farang near here, his wife has 17 rie ,the grower up the road who has 2-300 rie himself dose all the work , ploughing , planting spraying,havesting  ect ,only thing she does is aply some irrigation water when needed ,he does all the work ,then takes his costs from her final cheque, plus  interest charges ,

Now finding cutters in any number is  becoming more difficult , more cane is  being cut by machine, the above small grower , last year was charged  350 baht/ton to chop and haule there crop to the mill, that makes a hole in the growers'  profit margin .

[kickstart]

23 hours ago, Michael Hare said:

Thank you for those very enlightening comments about trying to make silage from Napier grass. I really think the people in the Livestock Department should be brought to justice about this bad promotion of Napier grass. Almost like Yingluck and the rice scheme. 

 

In nearly all other developing and developed tropical countries, no one uses Napier grass-either for fresh forage or hay. It is just too stemmy.

 

On your wet soils you may like to try Ubon paspalum. Tolerates waterlogging. One must cut it in the wet season every 40-45 days, otherwise it too will become very stemmy.

 

I am very disappointed to read you news about Muaklek. I first visited there in 1974. Some years ago research from Muaklek showed that dairy cows grazing a mixed pasture of hamata stylo and ruzi grass without any concentrate (TMR), produced 9-10 litres of milk per day. But they had to graze day and night except for milking times.  In my small trials here in Ubon, we got over 10 litres/cow/day on just grazing good legume-grass pastures day and night. No concentrate whatsoever.

 

But to tell Thai farmers and extension officers that a good diet of fresh grass and legume is far better economically than feeding expensive TMR is a waste of time. One might as well talk to a tree.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Your 10 liters /cow/day on just grazing  is good going ,It proves it can be done ,you did well to get the farmers to graze ,at night time ,most Thai cows  are  locked  in they shed at night  times eating rice straw ,their owners still afraid of thieves ,I let my cattle graze at night ,always have done ,still like the walk up the field at 10 pm to check on them . 

I have tried  your Ubon Paspalum, it grew well ,but cattle found it very unpalatable ,last year .and the year before difficult to grow grazing grass weather not right ,it got going well cattle would eat it ,then they just stopped eating it ,it did not look old or steamy ,I remember reading on TV that others have found the same problem, pity it is something that likes my land .

I agree with you about Mortlec ,I was they back in May they were cutting some Nappier it must have been 90-100 days ,say no more ,I can remember  they cows  eating   Ruzi  grass ,then it was a cut and cart sysyem ,with some grazing ,and thay were then making Ruzi grass silage ,not the best silage grass  a bit to old ,and the clamp was not rolled properly ,still say better than a TMR systme ,we have a few farmers  using a TMR system around here ,see how long they last before  changing back. 

 

 

[cobbler]

Ubon paspalum, why is it not good ? While others say its good. Is it due to being cut too old
Lot of time wasted if its planted and no good.

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[cobbler]

I got some of their Nappier Packchon  II and planted a small bed ,it grew quicker than my Taiwan ,stems a lot thicker ,higher yield,we cut it and  did our usual 30 hour willt ,chopped it ,noticed most bags weighed about 25 -30 kg,Taiwan never more than 25 kg ,left it 6 weeks ,opened  some of the bags , about 40% compost and very wet  ,with the thicker stems ,a 30 hour wilt was not enough,just to wet to ferment in to silage ,went the other way in to compost ,as I said we have struggled at times with a 30 hour wilt when the  weather is wet a 48 hour wilt would be best ,very difficult.
Kickstart. How many days did you let it grow before cutting it


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[cobbler]

Wanyed . Is it true u can convert a combine to a cutter and bailer? Square or round bales? Or am i just the most gullible guy on here for even asking?

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[cobbler]

If people can buy your grass to feed cattle ,sell the cow at a proffit. For sure theres money in cows if a decent breed was used to start with. Am i correct in saying this? Or are the medicines, vitamin blocks ect hideously expensive and kill the profit? I have my own opinion on this but interested in yours. Please

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