2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC

[tbthailand]

If we continue with the reference to the events in May 2010, that number would be, uhhh, zero.

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ? Are you suggesting that heavily armed militants 'of course' had a democratic right to shoot at and drop grenades on soldiers ? vanderGrift just collateral damage?

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

Anyway, may I ask if you're suggesting that if only those friendly Men-in-Black hadn't been there we'd have had more peaceful protesters dead, or are you suggesting that maybe no one would have died if there hadn't been those heavily armed militants ?

PS if you only mention the 50 - 60 dead in the last 5 days as statistical fact you might want to correct the numbers. I only get to 42 from the 13th of May till the end early 20th

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

trying to disown your own words? You know what a rhetorical question is. It's not a genuine question. It's a statement. You made a rhetorical statement implying something that I did not say, mean, nor imply. It was your own fabrication.

As for counting... here is a statement...

At least 54 people died, including two soldiers,

and yes, it does say "2 soldiers". I did not count the soldier killed by his own people in friendly fire in my statement. As for the second soldier, I had not seen a reference to it before or since...

[rubl]

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ? Are you suggesting that heavily armed militants 'of course' had a democratic right to shoot at and drop grenades on soldiers ? vanderGrift just collateral damage?

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

Anyway, may I ask if you're suggesting that if only those friendly Men-in-Black hadn't been there we'd have had more peaceful protesters dead, or are you suggesting that maybe no one would have died if there hadn't been those heavily armed militants ?

PS if you only mention the 50 - 60 dead in the last 5 days as statistical fact you might want to correct the numbers. I only get to 42 from the 13th of May till the end early 20th

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

trying to disown your own words? You know what a rhetorical question is. It's not a genuine question. It's a statement. You made a rhetorical statement implying something that I did not say, mean, nor imply. It was your own fabrication.

As for counting... here is a statement...

At least 54 people died, including two soldiers,

and yes, it does say "2 soldiers". I did not count the soldier killed by his own people in friendly fire in my statement. As for the second soldier, I had not seen a reference to it before or since...

Far be it from me to fabricate anything, but may I assume that not only did you get up too early today, but even got out of bed on the wrong site?

When looking at figures it would seem the general conclusion is 93 deaths in relation to the March to May 2010 'peaceful protest'. When precisely seems a matter of discussion, even the wiki article comes with inconsistent figures and daily tallies.

The 'at least 54 died' in the period 14 to 19th of May seems to aim at distracting from the topic of

"2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC"

Your "the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days" seems to aim at the same. It's as you like to suggest the terrorist like attack of the MiB killing an Army Colonel with staff as part of a 'peaceful protest' is a stand alone event which has nothing to do with what happened after.

Edited April 24, 2015 by rubl

[Ricardo]

<snip for brevity>

Suthep - Go back to the temple mate…Your evidence is not required.

That might be unwise, since actually former-DPM Suthep is there to defend himself, and his former boss, against charges filed by the NACC ?

From the OP ... "The evidence was submitted as part of Suthep's defense against charges filed by the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC), which is seeking to retroactively impeach Suthep and former Prime Minister Abhisit Vejjajiva for authorizing the military crackdown in 2010 that left at least 90 people dead, mostly civilians."

One wouldn't want to fail to show up for the meetings, as that might be taken by some (not that the UDD or PTP have an axe to grind or mud to sling), as trying to avoid having his day in court, and face his accusers.

Pity that certain other former senior-politicians (such as PMs ?) don't want to follow his example, and show up in-person, to fight their cases ?

[aussieinthailand]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

[aaacorp]

There are plenty of photos of the men in black out there, a small selection :

blackshirt1.jpg

2010_Red_army_terrorist_07.jpg

MIB.jpg

Back then they didn't have to be wearing black to be carrying a weapon some of the so called peaceful protesters were also armed :

hand gun.jpg

Incidentally Sae Deang was shot on orders of either Thaksin or the red leaders, not by the army.

Oh the Hell do you know Sae Deang was shot by the red ones?

Strangely, the one the army and the yellow were afraid was sae daeng because of his radical views and his army training and logistic knowledge...

[mike324]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

I don't support Suthep but I do lean towards Abhisit, before that I was an ardent supporter of Thaksin during his first term.

"Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

Yes, Dems gave the order. Suthep even went as far as saying its the protesters fault for "running into the bullets". One of the most idiotic statements I ever read, Same for when people were protesting about rising cost of goods, Yingluck said its because of the hot weather that is why people feel like the cost is rising. You see how idiotic so many of these Thai politicians are?

"When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

We are going in circles with this questions, its the same as asking: When was the last time protesters in your country started throwing grenades and shooting at the opposition? arming themselves with molotv cocktails and have fireworks aimed at the general public? Shutting down streets and effecting businesses for months? You see this questions becomes a which came first "chicken or egg" question.

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

Standard procedure around the world is to use rubber bullets, gas, and water cannons to disperse protesters, but when police went ahead with the dispersal, they were met with grenades, homemade bombs, and gun fire. So you tell me whats an effective non-lethal way at dealing with protesters who are armed with deadly weapons? If protesters did not become violent, then yes the fault would fall squarely on the police/soldiers for switching to lethal force, unfortunately it was the protesters who used lethal force first.

"And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?"

No death is justifiable for the death of innocent lives, but when you are warned for over 3 month and giving more than enough time to leave as "live fire" would be used, but continue to stay, then its your own fault and risk. It goes both ways, when is it justiable to use deadly force to counter the police who are enforcing the laws?

The problem here is nobody is focusing on the root cause of the problem which lies in corruption and law enforcement. If you want to keep on arguing about the deaths of red shirts and how officials did not handle it properly, then we can go all the way back to Thaksins administration where over 2000+ were killed on his war on drugs. TRT and Thaksin were also on HR watching list, as well as UN. Yet not a single red soul cry foul, why? red lives are worth more?

[MiKT]

"Australia has some big protests"

Did protesters take the city center hostage for months at a time? Restricting movements and checking cars that pass their rally point? I bet not. Were grenades thrown at businesses that supported the opposition? bet not. So what is a government suppose to do when police refuse to move against the protesters, and protesters will not move taking the city hostage? And protesters started rigging their camp site with fireworks and building a fort. Even before the military moved in, UDD stormed the 2009 ASEAM summit meeting scaring away top Asian leaders. Many left the country right away! as if thats not a serious enough offense. Not to mention bashing opposition politicians cars.

When the protesters demands were met, they turned it down. Remember that they ask for new election, Abhisit said ok and new elections would be held in less than a year. Protest leaders turned it down and told protesters to fight instead? Why? Perhaps situation could have been defused if protester leaders accepted it and told everyone to go home.

Even though the military moved in, they were more than patient enough, they were being shot and grenades thrown at without making a move until the last minute when given the order after protesters refuse to disperse.

You can't really compare protesters in the West to Thailand, people and education is so different that its really a no comparison. Its like trying to compare traffic law enforcement in Australia and Thailand.

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

"why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!"

This is such b/s its unbelievable anybody could post it. Millions at risk, what do you imagine they wired in, a couple of themo nuclear bombs, 2 million tons of TNT?

I walked all through the protest site (don't forget it was a protest site) the day before the crackdown and there was very little evidence of anything but a basically peaceful protest continuing.

There was NO good reason to for Suthep to order a violent crackdown.

[rubl]

There are plenty of photos of the men in black out there, a small selection :

blackshirt1.jpg

2010_Red_army_terrorist_07.jpg

MIB.jpg

Back then they didn't have to be wearing black to be carrying a weapon some of the so called peaceful protesters were also armed :

hand gun.jpg

Incidentally Sae Deang was shot on orders of either Thaksin or the red leaders, not by the army.

Oh the Hell do you know Sae Deang was shot by the red ones?

Strangely, the one the army and the yellow were afraid was sae daeng because of his radical views and his army training and logistic knowledge...

There is a difference between who ordered and who did. Robby wrote who ordered, and you react as if he wrote who did.

Now as to who did, that's easy. on 2011-12-13 then Dept. PM Pol. Captain Chalerm said

"I would like to reiterate here that they are policemen," Chalerm said.

He went on to say that a group of policemen from the Northeast carried out the assassination of Army specialist Maj-General Khattiya Sawasdiphol."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Men-in-black-are-policemen-Chalerm-claims-30171725.html

[rubl]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

Oh by the way, when was the last time that in your country the government was faced with 'peaceful protesters' who had heavily armed militants amongst them? When was the last time 'peaceful protesters' went shooting off grenades to non-protester people?

So, the 'peaceful protest' with 'grenades for fun' started around the time a court decided to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains. When was the last time people in your country came to 'peacefully protest' for justice to be served to a criminal fugitive while employing Ned Kelly type of figures?

[elviajero]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

I have no allegiance to Suthep or either side of the political divide. I can't stand the man and hold all politicians in contempt.

It's simple. The people responsible for all the deaths, damage to property and loss of income are the UDD leadership and their backers.

All actions have consequences. This protest was illegal, aimed at removing a legitimate government and force an election. A massive amount of money was spent in carrying out a well orchestrated plan to hold the capital city hostage. Anyone making such a plan would know that if they succeeded to barricade themselves in that the government, police and military would have difficulty removing them peacefully. It doesn't matter if the UDD's cause was right or just their actions were wrong and knowingly put their supporters in harms way.

Although the government, rightly, didn't agree to step down they did compromise and offered elections, which the UDD accepted. But if memory serves they UDD reneged when the leadership failed to secure themselves keep out of jail cards. If the UDD leadership had done the right thing and sent everyone home the situation would not have escalated as it did. Instead, knowing they would face the law they decided to go all in.

The government had a duty to remove this illegal protest. Throughout the protest the government gave plenty of warnings. Prior to the crackdown the government gave the protestors more warnings and time to disperse peacefully. They even provided transport. Protestors had two choices. Stay and fight or go home. Many decided to stand up to the military and some even, caught on camera, pledged to fight to the death.

The government handled the whole fiasco badly. They were too soft in the beginning. Any western government would have acted harder and quicker and prevented the protestors from barricading themselves in. Having armed some of their supporters the UDD gave the government little choice but to arm the military. If they had stayed behind their barricades and hadn't shot at, bombed and used all manner of other weapons against the military they would have every justification to complain about excessive force. It's very sad that people died but when protestors stand up to police or military force there is only one outcome in any country. Someone dies.

All the time there are partisans to follow these self-serving egomaniacs, and defend their actions, people will suffer.

[aaacorp]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

Oh by the way, when was the last time that in your country the government was faced with 'peaceful protesters' who had heavily armed militants amongst them? When was the last time 'peaceful protesters' went shooting off grenades to non-protester people?

So, the 'peaceful protest' with 'grenades for fun' started around the time a court decided to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains. When was the last time people in your country came to 'peacefully protest' for justice to be served to a criminal fugitive while employing Ned Kelly type of figures?

You mean like the popcorn gunners who protected Suthep show offs?

Or the ones during the Airport seizure?

I not say the red ones, and black ones are not existant, what I say is you can't support Suthep and at the same time say you want to get rid of corruption and gangster style operations...

You can't criticize the black shirt during 2010 and forget about the violences during airport seizure byt the yellow, neither last time with the popcorn gunners.

You neither can say Suthep wants to fight corruption and forget about HIS own past, which is even see by his own party as tainted as hell.

We all know that the army, Suthep and the traditional elite, and even above them (you know....) work together to keep the country in a way which will suit them...

The last coup was not unilaterally decided by the Army

[aaacorp]

Oh and an honest question :

What happened to all the money Suthep collected ?

Do we have any proof that he give this back to the poors and rice farmers as he promised?

I am quite sure no, but i would be happy to be wrong and see the money fairly distributed to the poor, and not the Suthep family

[tbthailand]

As if the fact that they didn't manage to kill army personel is to be regretted ?

that is a fabrication that only your own warped mind could conjure up.

As you - sir super troll - well know, I don't condone the violence by any side.

Pointing out that the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days and that none of the casualties were from the military is simply pointing out what actually occurred.

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

Anyway, may I ask if you're suggesting that if only those friendly Men-in-Black hadn't been there we'd have had more peaceful protesters dead, or are you suggesting that maybe no one would have died if there hadn't been those heavily armed militants ?

PS if you only mention the 50 - 60 dead in the last 5 days as statistical fact you might want to correct the numbers. I only get to 42 from the 13th of May till the end early 20th

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

trying to disown your own words? You know what a rhetorical question is. It's not a genuine question. It's a statement. You made a rhetorical statement implying something that I did not say, mean, nor imply. It was your own fabrication.

As for counting... here is a statement...

At least 54 people died, including two soldiers,

and yes, it does say "2 soldiers". I did not count the soldier killed by his own people in friendly fire in my statement. As for the second soldier, I had not seen a reference to it before or since...

Far be it from me to fabricate anything, but may I assume that not only did you get up too early today, but even got out of bed on the wrong site?

When looking at figures it would seem the general conclusion is 93 deaths in relation to the March to May 2010 'peaceful protest'. When precisely seems a matter of discussion, even the wiki article comes with inconsistent figures and daily tallies.

The 'at least 54 died' in the period 14 to 19th of May seems to aim at distracting from the topic of

"2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC"

Your "the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days" seems to aim at the same. It's as you like to suggest the terrorist like attack of the MiB killing an Army Colonel with staff as part of a 'peaceful protest' is a stand alone event which has nothing to do with what happened after.

so now the ultimate troll is accusing others of getting off topic.

adios amigo - you're a waste of time

[tbthailand]

"Australia has some big protests"

Did protesters take the city center hostage for months at a time? Restricting movements and checking cars that pass their rally point? I bet not. Were grenades thrown at businesses that supported the opposition? bet not. So what is a government suppose to do when police refuse to move against the protesters, and protesters will not move taking the city hostage? And protesters started rigging their camp site with fireworks and building a fort. Even before the military moved in, UDD stormed the 2009 ASEAM summit meeting scaring away top Asian leaders. Many left the country right away! as if thats not a serious enough offense. Not to mention bashing opposition politicians cars.

When the protesters demands were met, they turned it down. Remember that they ask for new election, Abhisit said ok and new elections would be held in less than a year. Protest leaders turned it down and told protesters to fight instead? Why? Perhaps situation could have been defused if protester leaders accepted it and told everyone to go home.

Even though the military moved in, they were more than patient enough, they were being shot and grenades thrown at without making a move until the last minute when given the order after protesters refuse to disperse.

You can't really compare protesters in the West to Thailand, people and education is so different that its really a no comparison. Its like trying to compare traffic law enforcement in Australia and Thailand.

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

"why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!"

This is such b/s its unbelievable anybody could post it. Millions at risk, what do you imagine they wired in, a couple of themo nuclear bombs, 2 million tons of TNT?

I walked all through the protest site (don't forget it was a protest site) the day before the crackdown and there was very little evidence of anything but a basically peaceful protest continuing.

There was NO good reason to for Suthep to order a violent crackdown.

No good reason... no, not at all, but the elites and the military don't just hate Thaksin, they also hate and show nothing but contempt for the people who want to change the status quo of politics to be just even a little bit more democratic.... Especially since they worked so hard to install Abhisit, how could they put up with people calling for an election? That had to stop.

To be honest, in 2010 I was absolutely shocked at the level of violence used against the protests.

[mikemac]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

....................."When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?, "............................

Well, never, as far as I know.

But then I can't remember one of the major parties ever funding a terrorist organization and sending them to the capital to blockade the city center, set fire to shopping centers, invade hospitals, and last but not least shoot at the army with guns, grenades and other assorted bombs. All this after repeatably been asked to disperse.

Would be interested to see what would happen, but I can tell you it would not go on for three months !

[tbthailand]

There are plenty of photos of the men in black out there, a small selection :

blackshirt1.jpg

2010_Red_army_terrorist_07.jpg

MIB.jpg

Back then they didn't have to be wearing black to be carrying a weapon some of the so called peaceful protesters were also armed :

hand gun.jpg

Incidentally Sae Deang was shot on orders of either Thaksin or the red leaders, not by the army.

Oh the Hell do you know Sae Deang was shot by the red ones?

Strangely, the one the army and the yellow were afraid was sae daeng because of his radical views and his army training and logistic knowledge...

not only does he not know that, it is also the least probable of all the possible scenarios.

[mike324]

"Australia has some big protests"

Did protesters take the city center hostage for months at a time? Restricting movements and checking cars that pass their rally point? I bet not. Were grenades thrown at businesses that supported the opposition? bet not. So what is a government suppose to do when police refuse to move against the protesters, and protesters will not move taking the city hostage? And protesters started rigging their camp site with fireworks and building a fort. Even before the military moved in, UDD stormed the 2009 ASEAM summit meeting scaring away top Asian leaders. Many left the country right away! as if thats not a serious enough offense. Not to mention bashing opposition politicians cars.

When the protesters demands were met, they turned it down. Remember that they ask for new election, Abhisit said ok and new elections would be held in less than a year. Protest leaders turned it down and told protesters to fight instead? Why? Perhaps situation could have been defused if protester leaders accepted it and told everyone to go home.

Even though the military moved in, they were more than patient enough, they were being shot and grenades thrown at without making a move until the last minute when given the order after protesters refuse to disperse.

You can't really compare protesters in the West to Thailand, people and education is so different that its really a no comparison. Its like trying to compare traffic law enforcement in Australia and Thailand.

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

"why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!"

This is such b/s its unbelievable anybody could post it. Millions at risk, what do you imagine they wired in, a couple of themo nuclear bombs, 2 million tons of TNT?

I walked all through the protest site (don't forget it was a protest site) the day before the crackdown and there was very little evidence of anything but a basically peaceful protest continuing.

There was NO good reason to for Suthep to order a violent crackdown.

Perhaps I should have word it better, no its not on the scale of any military scale bomb. But nonetheless millions of people do walk by the campsite each day. Perhaps you may think that these fireworks are harmless. Do you honestly think they will store bombs, fireworks, and weapons at a protest site that they open to the public to walk through? or visible to the public?

Did you not see what they brought out when soldiers moved in?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2010/may/14/thailand-troops-advance-protesters-live

It must be all harmless fun and games with homemade rockets! I remember Dan Rivers reporting for CNN who stood by protesters firing off homemade rockets and called these harmless.

Or the fact that M79 grenades were fired at soldiers who were station just across from protest sites! Those grenades must have just dropped out of the sky right?

No good reason for soldiers and innocent bystanders to be hurt by grenades before the crackdown too! You must have forgotten the bombings and shootings of business that were pro-dem before soldiers moved in.

I'm repeating myself too many times trying to counter the same arguments or red supporters here down playing the violence of the UDD and only focusing on the military and Dem. Won't comment anymore unless its something new to talk about.

Edited April 24, 2015 by mike324

[aaacorp]

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

"why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!"

This is such b/s its unbelievable anybody could post it. Millions at risk, what do you imagine they wired in, a couple of themo nuclear bombs, 2 million tons of TNT?

I walked all through the protest site (don't forget it was a protest site) the day before the crackdown and there was very little evidence of anything but a basically peaceful protest continuing.

There was NO good reason to for Suthep to order a violent crackdown.

Perhaps I should have word it better, no its not on the scale of any military scale bomb. But nonetheless millions of people do walk by the campsite each day. Perhaps you may think that these fireworks are harmless. Do you honestly think they will store bombs, fireworks, and weapons at a protest site that they open to the public to walk through? or visible to the public?

Did you not see what they brought out when soldiers moved in?

http://www.theguardian.com/world/blog/2010/may/14/thailand-troops-advance-protesters-live

It must be all harmless fun and games with homemade rockets! I remember Dan Rivers reporting for CNN who stood by protesters firing off homemade rockets and called these harmless.

Or the fact that M79 grenades were fired at soldiers who were station just across from protest sites! Those grenades must have just dropped out of the sky right?

No good reason for soldiers and innocent bystanders to be hurt by grenades before the crackdown too! You must have forgotten the bombings and shootings of business that were pro-dem before soldiers moved in.

I'm repeating myself too many times trying to counter the same arguments or red supporters here down playing the violence of the UDD and only focusing on the military and Dem. Won't comment anymore unless its something new to talk about.

Maybe you can feel quite upset if EACH TIME you win an election, the army step in to put someone they want instead....for more than 15 years.....

Whatever you said mate it was a violent crackdown on protesters who were ready to fight yes, but who didn't start the live rounds days.

Why some areas were live rounds while other not?

Why the general in charge do not sit with Suthep or Abhisit?

Why there is still not any clear explanation from the Army about the temple shooting?

Why the journalist families who were shoot by the army still don t have any answer?

It is not like the army here has an history of non violence....

Each time there was a government elected in Thailand which didn t suit the "elite/army/above" it was removed in a way or another...

[mike324]

Maybe you can feel quite upset if EACH TIME you win an election, the army step in to put someone they want instead....for more than 15 years.....

Whatever you said mate it was a violent crackdown on protesters who were ready to fight yes, but who didn't start the live rounds days.

Why some areas were live rounds while other not?

Why the general in charge do not sit with Suthep or Abhisit?

Why there is still not any clear explanation from the Army about the temple shooting?

Why the journalist families who were shoot by the army still don t have any answer?

It is not like the army here has an history of non violence....

Each time there was a government elected in Thailand which didn t suit the "elite/army/above" it was removed in a way or another...

I have said in the past, I was a supporter of Thaksin and was very happy to see him win. He won two terms in a row. So its not "EACH TIME", he could very much have held office if it were not for his corruption and people fed up with his brazen moves regarding his self interest and business.

Wow we are back at the "live round days" again, I say red shirts threw grenades and shot up pro dem businesses, you say soldiers used live rounds. Which came first you tell me.

"Why some areas were live rounds while other not?"

I'm pretty sure the whole city became a live round zone, but its mostly concentrated at Silom and Ratchaprasong because that is were the main red shirt camp is.

"Why the general in charge do not sit with Suthep or Abhisit?"

I don't know what you mean by it, either way they are different organization, why would he sit with Suthep and Abhisit?

"Why there is still not any clear explanation from the Army about the temple shooting?"

Do I really have to repeat why the Army did not give a clear explanation? Its like asking why Yingluck refuse to release Rice Scheme figures for two years, asking Thaksin to clear up his corruption charge. Either way NACC did find that soldiers were responsible for most of the deaths and that is why Suthep and Abhisit has to report in pending a trial. No need to debate if anything will happen or not yet.

"Why the journalist families who were shoot by the army still don t have any answer?"

Based on investigations last year, they do have an answer of which direction the shooting most likely came from, it was most likely from the soldiers side. Who shot who we will never know. Again no need to debate as it will be a dead end road.

"Maybe you can feel quite upset if EACH TIME you win an election, the army step in to put someone they want instead....for more than 15 years....."

"Each time there was a government elected in Thailand which didn t suit the "elite/army/above" it was removed in a way or another.."

Do I have to remind you TRT/PTP has been in the office for the better part of the decade? So your statement is completely false and you have no clue about Thai politics other than the red propaganda you've been reading or someone is telling you!

Yes I do feel upset that TRT/PTP can win election after election while making false promises and continuing to put farmers in more debt. Lying to the public and coming up with schemes that are not sustainable, and bold enough to flaunt it. I'm more than happy to debate about Populist Policies and Schemes.

All of your questions can be answered if you have kept up to date with the news. It seems like you are stuck on the mind set of "anti coup", coup is bad, many people get killed and not aware of the events that have happened. Honestly, without change like this, the country will always be corrupt with no one following the laws.

[Robby nz]

There are plenty of photos of the men in black out there, a small selection :

blackshirt1.jpg

2010_Red_army_terrorist_07.jpg

MIB.jpg

Back then they didn't have to be wearing black to be carrying a weapon some of the so called peaceful protesters were also armed :

hand gun.jpg

Incidentally Sae Deang was shot on orders of either Thaksin or the red leaders, not by the army.

Oh the Hell do you know Sae Deang was shot by the red ones?

Strangely, the one the army and the yellow were afraid was sae daeng because of his radical views and his army training and logistic knowledge...

You only have to use a little logic and common sense to see who Sae Deang was a threat to at the time of his killing.

It came directly after the red leaders had first agreed to go home in exchange for early elections then the next day reversed that decision and pledged to carry on the riots.

At the time of his death Sae Deang had been saying, and was saying in the interview when he was shot that he had talked to Thaksin and Thaksin had sacked the red leaders for agreeing to end the riots and put him, Sae Deang in charge.

This was doing three things :

It was showing without a doubt that Thaksin was in charge as he had the power to hire and fire the leaders, it also showed that he was the one who ordered the reversal of the decision to end the riots.

It was causing the red leaders to seriously lose face by having it publicly said that they had been sacked for annoying their boss.

It was destabilizing the red leadership and setting the leaders and Sae Deang against each other, a situation which could have only have benefited the Govt and the military.

So tell me who had the most incentive to want Sae Deang out of the way at that time ?

Consider also that the army could have many times before that, killed not only Sae Deang, who always liked to show off a high profile and was up front on many occasions, but the entire red leadership any time they chose but did not.

[AleG]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

The order was to fire on armed people, very similar RoE to regular police, no armed people, no orders to authorize the use of live ammunition. Simple as that.

If you want to see how security forces respond to armed men firing back there are plenty of examples, latest I could refer to is the killing of three hostage takers in Paris earlier this year, or the killing of a gunman in Sydney not long ago, or going back some time I could refer to Waco, Texas, etc, etc... The point being is, you shoot at security forces, you become fair game. Again, simple as that.

Non-lethal means were tried before, that stopped when the MiB (and regular "Peaceful Protesters") started using live ammunition against security forces, and these "few violent radicals" were mingling freely among protesters, acting behind their barricades protected by their smokescreens. When you have people aiding and abetting criminals they become complicit to the crime. If on top of that they behave like imbeciles like the "Peaceful Protestors" in this video they have no-one to blame but themselves if they ended up getting shot:

Now you go behind a barricade and point a metal tube at soldiers that have been on the receiving end of M72 grenade attacks and see how well you fare, or do like the moron pretending to fire an automatic weapon after setting off a string of fireworks. Surprise surprise, one got shot, if it wasn't their intention they surely did out of sheer stupidity every single possible thing to get an "Unnarmed Protestor" shot at.

By the way, take note of the child being used to set off the launching tube that, again, could be very easily taken for the barrel of a grenade launcher. If that kid would had ended up death whose fault would it had been?

You want to see what become of the attempts to use non-lethal means? at 0:43, that thing the guy is using to fire rockets is the nozzle from a water cannon truck dismantled by the "Peaceful Protestors".

Edited April 24, 2015 by AleG

[rubl]

"Australia has some big protests"

Did protesters take the city center hostage for months at a time? Restricting movements and checking cars that pass their rally point? I bet not. Were grenades thrown at businesses that supported the opposition? bet not. So what is a government suppose to do when police refuse to move against the protesters, and protesters will not move taking the city hostage? And protesters started rigging their camp site with fireworks and building a fort. Even before the military moved in, UDD stormed the 2009 ASEAM summit meeting scaring away top Asian leaders. Many left the country right away! as if thats not a serious enough offense. Not to mention bashing opposition politicians cars.

When the protesters demands were met, they turned it down. Remember that they ask for new election, Abhisit said ok and new elections would be held in less than a year. Protest leaders turned it down and told protesters to fight instead? Why? Perhaps situation could have been defused if protester leaders accepted it and told everyone to go home.

Even though the military moved in, they were more than patient enough, they were being shot and grenades thrown at without making a move until the last minute when given the order after protesters refuse to disperse.

You can't really compare protesters in the West to Thailand, people and education is so different that its really a no comparison. Its like trying to compare traffic law enforcement in Australia and Thailand.

I would suggest that lessons/history ignored after so many issues that an elected government be left to govern as the law provides, and stop this merry go round of throwing out governments and coup's, and the problem with the argument, Butt, but they got what they asked for (elections within a year), well why didn't mark see the volatile nature of these murdering MIB and do what a smart politician would do if he cared for the peoples safety and the country and dissolve government and elections with in 60 days as provided by the law.

The situation should not have been let to escalate to that stage, and there is incompetence and accountability for that also, ie dereliction of duty.

as far as people saying the police did nothing to stop them coz mr,T gave orders, what a steaming load that is, Simple if the chief of police refused to do his job, remove him and put in another who will, and the former Chief Of Police would be in gaol for dereliction of duty, would he not? that what a smart PM would do yeah.

It's a very simple Q&A, Did the PM and his deputy give the green light to the military to use live rounds and as a result people died.

Perhaps a better question to ask is why was there a merry go round of throwing out governments? What have they done wrong? I don't want to here the "Elite holding on to power" nonsense. Lets not forget PTP/TRT had 49% of the Bangkok votes during their peak, so that elite argument really does not hold any water.

Your excuse of "volatile nature of these murdering MIB", for DEM to call an earlier election is lame. Its the same as why did UDD put protesters in danger when they could have accepted it! or why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!

Why DEMs won't hold an earlier election, we will never know, some say its because of the military reshuffle in September. Which could be the very same reason why UDD did not accept it as they want to put their own military leaders in charge, hence an earlier election.

You are trying to put the responsibility of this chaos at the end of the chain which is Abhisit and DEMs, yes they are partial responsible for the deaths. But you still fail to solve the root of the problem which is Corruption and Law Enforcement. We have been repeating the same thing even with PTP elected! Corruption corruption corruption!

Again if you want to blame the "elites" for the problem, lets review which party has been in office for the better part of the decade?

"why did the UDD put millions of citizens in Bangkok in danger by wiring their campsite with homemade bombs and rockets!"

This is such b/s its unbelievable anybody could post it. Millions at risk, what do you imagine they wired in, a couple of themo nuclear bombs, 2 million tons of TNT?

I walked all through the protest site (don't forget it was a protest site) the day before the crackdown and there was very little evidence of anything but a basically peaceful protest continuing.

There was NO good reason to for Suthep to order a violent crackdown.

Ah, but Suthep didn't order a violent crackdown. He ordered a crackdown, had the 'peaceful protesters' warned that they should move and when they didn't had the army move in. Of course if you think that heavy gunfire exchanges with unarmed peaceful protesters are ridiculous you would be right. If you think that terrorists lobbing grenades on soldiers are to be handled as VIPs you would be wrong.

[rubl]

I have a question or 2 for the Suthep supporters.

Did he give the green light to the military to use deadly force on the people?

When was the last time in your country did the Deputy PM with the ok of the PM give the green light to the military to use deadly force on protesters with a similar death toll and it was ok, justified, and no case to answer?,

Is there any equipment, tool, technology out there that is affective in combination that is NON-LEATHLE that could have cleared the protesters over the same time frame?

And lastly Just what is the maximum number of innocent protesters, emergency volunteer's, and journalist's deaths in ok or justifiable to use deadly force to put down the few violent radicals?

Now the challenge for the supporters for the masquerading monk is to answer each of the questions and not deflect, spin, or just BUT BUT BUT the man in Dubai drivel.

Oh by the way, when was the last time that in your country the government was faced with 'peaceful protesters' who had heavily armed militants amongst them? When was the last time 'peaceful protesters' went shooting off grenades to non-protester people?

So, the 'peaceful protest' with 'grenades for fun' started around the time a court decided to confiscate 43 billion of Thaksin's illgotten gains. When was the last time people in your country came to 'peacefully protest' for justice to be served to a criminal fugitive while employing Ned Kelly type of figures?

You mean like the popcorn gunners who protected Suthep show offs?

Or the ones during the Airport seizure?

I not say the red ones, and black ones are not existant, what I say is you can't support Suthep and at the same time say you want to get rid of corruption and gangster style operations...

You can't criticize the black shirt during 2010 and forget about the violences during airport seizure byt the yellow, neither last time with the popcorn gunners.

You neither can say Suthep wants to fight corruption and forget about HIS own past, which is even see by his own party as tainted as hell.

We all know that the army, Suthep and the traditional elite, and even above them (you know....) work together to keep the country in a way which will suit them...

The last coup was not unilaterally decided by the Army

Actually I was just staying on topic, but f you think the possibly red-shirts who lobbed grenades and killed a few yellow shirt protesters at Don Muang end of November 2008 are related to this issue, you might be right. A popcorn shooter who came to the rescue because some red shirts were starting a fight might have been overkill, but the police wasn't really helpful and no army in sight.

Anyway, 2010 Men-in-Black and some still in denial.

[rubl]

Maybe you can feel quite upset if EACH TIME you win an election, the army step in to put someone they want instead....for more than 15 years.....

Whatever you said mate it was a violent crackdown on protesters who were ready to fight yes, but who didn't start the live rounds days.

Why some areas were live rounds while other not?

Why the general in charge do not sit with Suthep or Abhisit?

Why there is still not any clear explanation from the Army about the temple shooting?

Why the journalist families who were shoot by the army still don t have any answer?

It is not like the army here has an history of non violence....

Each time there was a government elected in Thailand which didn t suit the "elite/army/above" it was removed in a way or another...

I have said in the past, I was a supporter of Thaksin and was very happy to see him win. He won two terms in a row. So its not "EACH TIME", he could very much have held office if it were not for his corruption and people fed up with his brazen moves regarding his self interest and business.

Wow we are back at the "live round days" again, I say red shirts threw grenades and shot up pro dem businesses, you say soldiers used live rounds. Which came first you tell me.

"Why some areas were live rounds while other not?"

I'm pretty sure the whole city became a live round zone, but its mostly concentrated at Silom and Ratchaprasong because that is were the main red shirt camp is.

"Why the general in charge do not sit with Suthep or Abhisit?"

I don't know what you mean by it, either way they are different organization, why would he sit with Suthep and Abhisit?

"Why there is still not any clear explanation from the Army about the temple shooting?"

Do I really have to repeat why the Army did not give a clear explanation? Its like asking why Yingluck refuse to release Rice Scheme figures for two years, asking Thaksin to clear up his corruption charge. Either way NACC did find that soldiers were responsible for most of the deaths and that is why Suthep and Abhisit has to report in pending a trial. No need to debate if anything will happen or not yet.

"Why the journalist families who were shoot by the army still don t have any answer?"

Based on investigations last year, they do have an answer of which direction the shooting most likely came from, it was most likely from the soldiers side. Who shot who we will never know. Again no need to debate as it will be a dead end road.

"Maybe you can feel quite upset if EACH TIME you win an election, the army step in to put someone they want instead....for more than 15 years....."

"Each time there was a government elected in Thailand which didn t suit the "elite/army/above" it was removed in a way or another.."

Do I have to remind you TRT/PTP has been in the office for the better part of the decade? So your statement is completely false and you have no clue about Thai politics other than the red propaganda you've been reading or someone is telling you!

Yes I do feel upset that TRT/PTP can win election after election while making false promises and continuing to put farmers in more debt. Lying to the public and coming up with schemes that are not sustainable, and bold enough to flaunt it. I'm more than happy to debate about Populist Policies and Schemes.

All of your questions can be answered if you have kept up to date with the news. It seems like you are stuck on the mind set of "anti coup", coup is bad, many people get killed and not aware of the events that have happened. Honestly, without change like this, the country will always be corrupt with no one following the laws.

"Either way NACC did find that soldiers were responsible for most of the deaths and that is why Suthep and Abhisit has to report in pending a trial."

The charge dropped at the Supreme Court for Political Office Holders is "abuse of power" as in using authority as PM/DPM to order the Army to cleanup the UDD protests and allow life ammunition which caused the lives of 76 or so protesters. If the Supreme Court agrees and convicts Abhisit/Suthep a further case may be filed with the Criminal Court (at least that's how the sequence is supposed to be, I think).

The NACC didn't find soldiers mostly responsible. A Court of Inquiry handling the first dozen 'easy' cases' (as described so by DSI chief Tarit) concluded mostly that most likely those deaths investigated resulted from gunfire by soldiers.

[rubl]

There are plenty of photos of the men in black out there, a small selection :

blackshirt1.jpg

2010_Red_army_terrorist_07.jpg

MIB.jpg

Back then they didn't have to be wearing black to be carrying a weapon some of the so called peaceful protesters were also armed :

hand gun.jpg

Incidentally Sae Deang was shot on orders of either Thaksin or the red leaders, not by the army.

Oh the Hell do you know Sae Deang was shot by the red ones?

Strangely, the one the army and the yellow were afraid was sae daeng because of his radical views and his army training and logistic knowledge...

not only does he not know that, it is also the least probable of all the possible scenarios.

but in December 211 then Dept PM Pol. Captain Chalerm stated police from the NorthEast of Thailand were responsible. Of course they may have been closeted yellow melons who took orders from the Democrat party led government, or the Army. Mind you, that would seem to be a wee bit ridiculous.

[rubl]

No good reason... no, not at all, but the elites and the military don't just hate Thaksin, they also hate and show nothing but contempt for the people who want to change the status quo of politics to be just even a little bit more democratic.... Especially since they worked so hard to install Abhisit, how could they put up with people calling for an election? That had to stop.

To be honest, in 2010 I was absolutely shocked at the level of violence used against the protests.

Absolutely! I was also shocked by the level of violence. Gunfire and grenades against non-red-shirts. Difficult to believe that fairy tale of "peaceful protesters, not terrorists"

BTW the first grenades dropped around the time a court decided on whether or not to return 76 billion Baht of Shinawatra money blocked. Interesting that those peaceful UDD members rise to protect the illgotten gains of an Amply Rich criminal fugitive. Almost as if they were afraid not to get paid.

[rubl]

Oh and an honest question :

What happened to all the money Suthep collected ?

Do we have any proof that he give this back to the poors and rice farmers as he promised?

I am quite sure no, but i would be happy to be wrong and see the money fairly distributed to the poor, and not the Suthep family

Add it to the list. There's also still a request for the administration of the UDD protesters, freely donated money and how it was used. A clear itemised list of goods bought and distributed, weapons and ammunition. Of course also the applicable VAT should be mentioned.

[rubl]

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

Anyway, may I ask if you're suggesting that if only those friendly Men-in-Black hadn't been there we'd have had more peaceful protesters dead, or are you suggesting that maybe no one would have died if there hadn't been those heavily armed militants ?

PS if you only mention the 50 - 60 dead in the last 5 days as statistical fact you might want to correct the numbers. I only get to 42 from the 13th of May till the end early 20th

That's not a fabrication, but a question.

trying to disown your own words? You know what a rhetorical question is. It's not a genuine question. It's a statement. You made a rhetorical statement implying something that I did not say, mean, nor imply. It was your own fabrication.

As for counting... here is a statement...

At least 54 people died, including two soldiers,

and yes, it does say "2 soldiers". I did not count the soldier killed by his own people in friendly fire in my statement. As for the second soldier, I had not seen a reference to it before or since...

Far be it from me to fabricate anything, but may I assume that not only did you get up too early today, but even got out of bed on the wrong site?

When looking at figures it would seem the general conclusion is 93 deaths in relation to the March to May 2010 'peaceful protest'. When precisely seems a matter of discussion, even the wiki article comes with inconsistent figures and daily tallies.

The 'at least 54 died' in the period 14 to 19th of May seems to aim at distracting from the topic of

"2010 Crackdown: Suthep submits evidence of 'blackshirts' to NACC"

Your "the army killed well over 50-60 people in about 5 days" seems to aim at the same. It's as you like to suggest the terrorist like attack of the MiB killing an Army Colonel with staff as part of a 'peaceful protest' is a stand alone event which has nothing to do with what happened after.

so now the ultimate troll is accusing others of getting off topic.

adios amigo - you're a waste of time

I know, you always seem to end with the troll accusation for lack of relevant arguments.

[AleG]

No good reason... no, not at all, but the elites and the military don't just hate Thaksin, they also hate and show nothing but contempt for the people who want to change the status quo of politics to be just even a little bit more democratic.... Especially since they worked so hard to install Abhisit, how could they put up with people calling for an election? That had to stop.

To be honest, in 2010 I was absolutely shocked at the level of violence used against the protests.

Absolutely! I was also shocked by the level of violence. Gunfire and grenades against non-red-shirts. Difficult to believe that fairy tale of "peaceful protesters, not terrorists"

BTW the first grenades dropped around the time a court decided on whether or not to return 76 billion Baht of Shinawatra money blocked. Interesting that those peaceful UDD members rise to protect the illgotten gains of an Amply Rich criminal fugitive. Almost as if they were afraid not to get paid.

It's worth noting that a number of those grenade (and drive by shootings) attacks were directly against banks that held Thaksin's frozen assets.

Also worth noting that bombing campaign began weeks before any deadly clashes between protestors and security forces, just in case people continue to be confused over who started the violence.

I found a site that lists some (I know it's not the full list) of attacks before the April 10th clashes:

Jan 14, 2010 : Being shot with M79 into the Commander Royal Thai Army Office, close to the working room of Gen Anupong Paochinda, the Commander-in-Chief of the Army at the present time. (note: that was after Seh Daeng, who ran security for the "Peaceful Protesters" openly threatened to teach Anupong the "grenade dance")

Feb 27, 2010 : A grenade of M79 thrown into a Bangkok Bank Praram2 branch, but failed.

Feb 27, 2010 : A grenade of M26 bomb thrown into Bangkok Bank Phraram2 branch Silom Road branch, 2 men, Red-shirt protester caught. In the same night there’s an unknown bomb thrown into Bangkok bank, Phapradang branch, the glass wall was damaged.

Feb 28, 2010 : A grenade of M67 bomb thrown into Bangkok Bank, Srinakharin branch, the officer saved it before it exploded.

March 15, 2010: 6 M79 bombs shot into department of Infantry 1st Infantry Regiment, King’s Own Bodyguard , 4 of 6 exploded and 2 officers got injured.

March 16, 2010 : M79 bombs shot into the residence, 22/18 Soi Ladprao 23, no one found injured or killed.

March 19, 2010 : M16 shot into the house of residents Khlong Tan Nuea district Wattana of Bangkok, no one found injured, assumed that there was a demand payment of a debt. Still, There was an M16 shot into a house of residents at soi Sukhumvit 53 Khlong Tan Nuea district Bangkok, no one found injured, assumed to be a demand payment of a debt.In the same night, a guy threw gasoline with fire upon the front line tank of King’s Guard, 2nd Cavalry Division, 2 men caught as taxi drivers involving in Red-shirt protest group.

March 20, 2010 : M67 bombs thrown into Office of the National Anti-Corruption Commission of Nonthaburi and at the same while Ministry of Defence was shot with RPG rocket, found suspicious objects on the foot bridge of Somdej Phra Pinklao, however the officer succeeded in explosive disposal.

March 22, 2010 : M79 grenades thrown into Thonburi Highway Maintenance Unit.

March 23, 2010 : Ministry of Public Health Nonthaburi shot by M79 and M67 bomb thrown into the Legal Execution Department at Bangkhunnon.March 24, 2010 : Bombs dropped at the electric control box near the fence of Nonthaburi City hall, no damage found and the M67 bomb thrown near the electricity pole of Legal Execution Department, Taling Chan district Bangkok.

March 26, 2010 : Office of The Attorney General were attacked by an M67 bomb.

March 27, 2010 : There were explosions in many areas (Bang Loong Yai were shot with M79, The 120-year building of the Customs Department was shot with K75 bomb, nearby found 2 of M67 bombs on Nawamin Raod, 5 channel TV station were shot with M67 and M79 bombs shot into the 11 channel TV station.

March 28, 2010 : M79 shot into 11th Infantry Regiment King’ Bodyguard, M67 bomb thrown into Banhan Silpa archa residence.

March 30, 2010 : A grenade of M67 thrown at General Prem Tinsulanonda Statesman Foundation.

April 3, 2010 : There were explosions at TOT telephone intersection, Phadung Krung Kasem branch near the residence no. 260-262 on Larn Luang Street.

April 4, 2010 : There was a car bomb at Poseidon spa, resulted a home-made bomb TNT type.

April 6, 2010 : M79 bomb shot into residence no. 48 Mongkol nivej village Soi Vipavadee Ransit 44, Chatuchak Bangkok.

April 7, 2010 : M26 bomb thrown at a local police boot on Nawamin Road and fire extinguisher contained urea fertilizer and diesel fuel with clock cycle were put near Fashion Island shopping mall.

April 8, 2010 : M79 bomb and M16 shot into New Politics Party Office on Phra Sumen Road and TPI building on Narathiwat Ratchanakharin Road.

Edited April 24, 2015 by AleG

[marinediscoking]

No good reason... no, not at all, but the elites and the military don't just hate Thaksin, they also hate and show nothing but contempt for the people who want to change the status quo of politics to be just even a little bit more democratic.... Especially since they worked so hard to install Abhisit, how could they put up with people calling for an election? That had to stop.

To be honest, in 2010 I was absolutely shocked at the level of violence used against the protests.

Absolutely! I was also shocked by the level of violence. Gunfire and grenades against non-red-shirts. Difficult to believe that fairy tale of "peaceful protesters, not terrorists"

BTW the first grenades dropped around the time a court decided on whether or not to return 76 billion Baht of Shinawatra money blocked. Interesting that those peaceful UDD members rise to protect the illgotten gains of an Amply Rich criminal fugitive. Almost as if they were afraid not to get paid.

It's worth noting that a number of those grenade (and drive by shootings) attacks were directly against banks that held Thaksin's frozen assets.

Also worth noting that bombing campaign began weeks before any deadly clashes between protestors and security forces, just in case people continue to be confused over who started the violence.

I found a site that lists some (I know it's not the full list) of attacks before the April 10th clashes:

Jan 14, 2010 : Being shot with M79 into the Commander Royal Thai Army Office, close to the working room of Gen Anupong Paochinda, the Commander-in-Chief of the Army at the present time. (note: that was after Seh Daeng, who ran security for the "Peaceful Protesters" openly threatened to teach Anupong the "grenade dance")

Feb 27, 2010 : A grenade of M79 thrown into a Bangkok Bank Praram2 branch, but failed.

Feb 27, 2010 : A grenade of M26 bomb thrown into Bangkok Bank Phraram2 branch Silom Road branch, 2 men, Red-shirt protester caught. In the same night there’s an unknown bomb thrown into Bangkok bank, Phapradang branch, the glass wall was damaged.

Feb 28, 2010 : A grenade of M67 bomb thrown into Bangkok Bank, Srinakharin branch, the officer saved it before it exploded.

March 15, 2010: 6 M79 bombs shot into department of Infantry 1st Infantry Regiment, King’s Own Bodyguard , 4 of 6 exploded and 2 officers got injured.

March 16, 2010 : M79 bombs shot into the residence, 22/18 Soi Ladprao 23, no one found injured or killed.

March 19, 2010 : M16 shot into the house of residents Khlong Tan Nuea district Wattana of Bangkok, no one found injured, assumed that there was a demand payment of a debt. Still, There was an M16 shot into a house of residents at soi Sukhumvit 53 Khlong Tan Nuea district Bangkok, no one found injured, assumed to be a demand payment of a debt.In the same night, a guy threw gasoline with fire upon the front line tank of King’s Guard, 2nd Cavalry Division, 2 men caught as taxi drivers involving in Red-shirt protest group.

March 20, 2010 : M67 bombs thrown into Office of the National Anti-Corruption Commission of Nonthaburi and at the same while Ministry of Defence was shot with RPG rocket, found suspicious objects on the foot bridge of Somdej Phra Pinklao, however the officer succeeded in explosive disposal.

March 22, 2010 : M79 grenades thrown into Thonburi Highway Maintenance Unit.

March 23, 2010 : Ministry of Public Health Nonthaburi shot by M79 and M67 bomb thrown into the Legal Execution Department at Bangkhunnon.March 24, 2010 : Bombs dropped at the electric control box near the fence of Nonthaburi City hall, no damage found and the M67 bomb thrown near the electricity pole of Legal Execution Department, Taling Chan district Bangkok.

March 26, 2010 : Office of The Attorney General were attacked by an M67 bomb.

March 27, 2010 : There were explosions in many areas (Bang Loong Yai were shot with M79, The 120-year building of the Customs Department was shot with K75 bomb, nearby found 2 of M67 bombs on Nawamin Raod, 5 channel TV station were shot with M67 and M79 bombs shot into the 11 channel TV station.

March 28, 2010 : M79 shot into 11th Infantry Regiment King’ Bodyguard, M67 bomb thrown into Banhan Silpa archa residence.

March 30, 2010 : A grenade of M67 thrown at General Prem Tinsulanonda Statesman Foundation.

April 3, 2010 : There were explosions at TOT telephone intersection, Phadung Krung Kasem branch near the residence no. 260-262 on Larn Luang Street.

April 4, 2010 : There was a car bomb at Poseidon spa, resulted a home-made bomb TNT type.

April 6, 2010 : M79 bomb shot into residence no. 48 Mongkol nivej village Soi Vipavadee Ransit 44, Chatuchak Bangkok.

April 7, 2010 : M26 bomb thrown at a local police boot on Nawamin Road and fire extinguisher contained urea fertilizer and diesel fuel with clock cycle were put near Fashion Island shopping mall.

April 8, 2010 : M79 bomb and M16 shot into New Politics Party Office on Phra Sumen Road and TPI building on Narathiwat Ratchanakharin Road.

Very detailed list. Why don't you list also how many rounds were fired at the unarmed reds by the Army and who ordered it? As well as all the killings by the yellows and Suthep's men in black during his protest? Were is your objectivity?