Israel veterans group alleges Israeli misconduct in Gaza war

[kblaze]

This "group" a radicle left entity who get it's funding from overseas sources tasked with the sole purpose to

demonise and show Israel in a very negative lights, this group is one of many, the army has asked them

repeatedly for their 'evidences' so they can investigate the allegations but none was supplied,

This "radical" group as you (appear to) call them, were themselves in the Israeli army. There is no evidence for your claim that they get funding from overseas - funding to do what, exactly? Why would veterans who put their lives on the line for their country, right or wrong, now have "a sole purpose" to show their own country in a negative light?

"No evidence" of overseas funding you say?

Perhaps you've got that wrong:

European Funders and Their Agenda

• Contrary to BtS’ claim that “the contents and opinions in this booklet do not express the position of the funders,” NGO Monitor research reveals that a number of funders made their grants conditional on the NGO obtaining a minimum number of negative “testimonies.” This contradicts BtS’ declarations and thus turns it into an organization that represents its foreign donors’ interest, severely damaging the NGO’s reliability and its ability to analyze complicated combat situations.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

As far as the claims made. they are from anonymous sources and cannot be independently verified. It can't even be verified that they are IDF soldiers making those claims.

Not surprisingly, "NGO monitor.org" is hardly an unbiased source. From its wiki;

The organization was founded in 2001 byGerald M. Steinberg under the auspices of the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (with funding from the Wechsler Family Foundation) as part of "an array of cutting-edge programs to present Israel's case to the world".^[4]

NGO Monitor has been characterized as being pro-Israel^[6][7] and is often described as right-wing.^[8]

[Jingthing]

So you are suggesting they are lying about the foreign sources of funds? Can you document your accusation?

[snowgard]

I imagine they were goaded into it. The I'D has a lot of youngsters drafted in to it. The 'Pals' like other terror groups specialise in this kind of behaviour to misdirected people from the outrageous crimes they commit.

Who sows hatred will reap hatred !!!

Sometimes I ask myself who is the Real Aggressor. The Palestines or the Israelis? Not easy to say because on both sides People do wrong!!! But fact is also that the Isralis also are master of TERRORISM. They murdered Hamas Politicans and their families and thousands of civilians and think this is ok. They have the right for it. Did the palestines not have the same rights? If we ask how much bombs and rockets the palestines sent to Israel and how much bombs/rockets Israel sent to the palestines who sent more?

blablabla..... This recriminations can be endlos from both sides but bring nothing!!!

The onliest way is to find an acceptable solution for both parties. My solution for the Tempelberg is to give it under the UN. They take care together with all groups.

Edited May 6, 2015 by snowgard

[kblaze]

No wonder Israel wins wars. The rules of engagement favor the soldiers of Israel, rather than the enemy. The USA has forgotten this lesson. Most of this is nothing shocking.

The Israeli air force dropped thousands of leaflets on areas it was preparing to attack, but according to the testimonies, it was assumed that once these leaflets had been distributed, anyone left would be from Hamas, or one of the other militant groups that took part in the war.

Another first sergeant, from an infantry division operating northern Gaza, said that he was told that, “if it looks like a man, shoot. It was simple: You’re in a motherf***ing combat zone. A few hours before you went in the whole area was bombed, if there’s anyone there who doesn’t clearly look innocent, you apparently need to shoot that person.”

http://www.independe...s-10223427.html

In a statement the IDF said: The IDF is committed to properly investigating all credible claims raised via media, NGOs, and official complaints concerning IDF conduct during operation Protective Edge, in as serious a manner as possible.

Today, as in the past the organisation Breaking the Silence has been asked to provide any evidence or testimony related to IDF activities prior to publication, in order for genuine investigations to be carried out. Unfortunately, as in the past, Breaking the Silence has refused to provide the IDF with any proof of their clai

"Breaking the Silence has been asked to provide any evidence or testimony related to IDF activities prior to publication, in order for genuine investigations to be carried out."

Yes because it isn't a genuine investigation unless the IDF is involved.

Anyways, so are all 60 testimonials a complete and utter fabrication in your view? just completely made up in order to further the anti-semitic agenda?

[kblaze]

So you are suggesting they are lying about the foreign sources of funds? Can you document your accusation?

No, I'm saying NGO Monitor is hardly an unbiased source.

As Avner Gevaryahu, the spokesman for the Breaking the Silence group, puts it:

"the allegations of extreme right-wing organization Im Tirzu are simply a lie. We have never received money from a Palestinian fund or organization in Ramallah. Once again, the organizations on the right fail to address the arguments themselves and try to divert the debate to fallacious and hallucinatory places.”

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-ngo-accuses-army-of-violating-its-moral-code-in-gaza/

[thaibeachlovers]

Typical anti-Israel hate speech. Pushing the false idea that modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This is the TRUE not a Anti-Israel hate speech!!! I hope only that the day come where all the MONEY SUPPORTERS of Israel stop to spend Money, weapons and technic Support. Also stop to Import/Export from/to Israel!!! Interesting what happen than. This will change a lot of minds.

So what's your goal? The end of Israel? In my impression that's the usual goal of extremist Israel demonizers and also of course Hamas and most BDS activists.

Not mine. I want them to go back to the legal boundaries of Israel as set by the UN in 1948.

[Jingthing]

The question was foreign source. You just diverted the question. Maybe follow the thread and get back to me. I don't doubt the NGO watch group is biased. I do doubt they are lying about the foreign source info they put on the link. All you've got is attacking that watch group. You have no proof that their list of foreign source is wrong, do you?

[Jingthing]

Typical anti-Israel hate speech. Pushing the false idea that modern Israel is equivalent to Nazi Germany.

Sent from my Lenovo S820_ROW using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

This is the TRUE not a Anti-Israel hate speech!!! I hope only that the day come where all the MONEY SUPPORTERS of Israel stop to spend Money, weapons and technic Support. Also stop to Import/Export from/to Israel!!! Interesting what happen than. This will change a lot of minds.

So what's your goal? The end of Israel? In my impression that's the usual goal of extremist Israel demonizers and also of course Hamas and most BDS activists.

Not mine. I want them to go back to the legal boundaries of Israel as set by the UN in 1948.

That's nice for you, but the truth is the core of BDS has an agenda to end Israel. Maybe some of their followers don't know what that movement is REALLY about.

https://youtu.be/5oJRriJ2tY8

[dexterm]

So you are suggesting they are lying about the foreign sources of funds? Can you document your accusation?

NGO Monitor wouldn't even disclose where it gets its own funding from, so much for its campaign for transparency.

"According to a February 2012 article written by Uri Blau in Haaretz, his examination of NGO Monitor's finances revealed that "the organization sought to block the publication of one contributor and to get hundreds of thousands of Shekels from anonymous sources".^[20] The donations in question were from the Jewish Agency for Israel and Matan, and originated with unnamed donors from outside Israel."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NGO_Monitor#Funding

The Jewish Agency for Israel is funded by The Jewish Federations of North America, Keren Hayesod, major Jewish communities and federations, the International Fellowship of Christians and Jews, foundations and donors from Israel and around the world.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

.

Edited May 6, 2015 by dexterm

[chuckd]

After reading the report from the NGO monitors, I would think anybody with a reasonable thinking process would realize "Breaking the Silence" has well and truly been declared a source with a one sided agenda.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

Try again.

Edited May 6, 2015 by chuckd

[Ulysses G.]

Anyways, so are all 60 testimonials a complete and utter fabrication in your view? just completely made up in order to further the anti-semitic agenda?

If you actually read the testimonials, many are not all that damning. Their rules of engagement would be true of almost any army on earth. The fact that Breaking the Silence refused to allow soldiers with positive views to participate, pretty much says it all.

[Ulysses G.]

After reading the report from the NGO monitors, I would think anybody with a reasonable thinking process would realize "Breaking the Silence" has well and truly been declared a source with a one sided agenda.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

Try again.

Indeed. Pure propaganda.

In its introduction, BtS fails to mention that terrorist groups in Gaza launched rockets, dug tunnels, and placed almost all of their fighting positions in civilian areas in Gaza, including mosques, schools, and hospitals. Thus, the organization provides a partial portrayal of the rationale that guided the IDF. Additionally, BtS does not explain that the IDF used multiple methods of warning civilians to leave areas of fighting in a way that is above and beyond the norm among Western countries. Methods included leaflets, phone calls, and “roof knocking.”

[Seastallion]

After reading the report from the NGO monitors, I would think anybody with a reasonable thinking process would realize "Breaking the Silence" has well and truly been declared a source with a one sided agenda.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

Try again.

Besides the fact that you have ignored the posted evidence of just how little credibility your source has, lets, for argument's sake, take it at face value....

Just because negative testimonies were (allegedly) required does not mean that any negative testimonies are false. Inarguable. You'll have to do better to discredit the negative testimonies.

What is HIGHLY significant, though, is that numerous foreign governments, of democratic and law-abiding nations, do appear to seek the proper evidence to put Israel in it's place.

Do you think those numerous governments are just doing this for fun?

Try again.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Seastallion

[Seastallion]

Anyways, so are all 60 testimonials a complete and utter fabrication in your view? just completely made up in order to further the anti-semitic agenda?

If you actually read the testimonials, many are not all that damning. Their rules of engagement would be true of almost any army on earth. The fact that Breaking the Silence refused to allow soldiers with positive views to participate, pretty much says it all.

Utter rubbish.

"Not all that damning"? ....it was only partly murder, but mainly lawful? Oh, ok then...lets forget about it.

That BtS didn't allow positive views does not "pretty much say it all".....as if any positive views can outweigh the legality and morality of murder.

We murdered civilians, but at other times we did good.....thus the murders were justified"????

[Seastallion]

After reading the report from the NGO monitors, I would think anybody with a reasonable thinking process would realize "Breaking the Silence" has well and truly been declared a source with a one sided agenda.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

Try again.

Indeed. Pure propaganda.

In its introduction, BtS fails to mention that terrorist groups in Gaza launched rockets, dug tunnels, and placed almost all of their fighting positions in civilian areas in Gaza, including mosques, schools, and hospitals. Thus, the organization provides a partial portrayal of the rationale that guided the IDF. Additionally, BtS does not explain that the IDF used multiple methods of warning civilians to leave areas of fighting in a way that is above and beyond the norm among Western countries. Methods included leaflets, phone calls, and “roof knocking.”

Eh? "roof knocking" and leaflets counter orders to sterilise the area?

"the area has to be sterilized, empty of people and if we don't see someone waving a white flag, screaming, 'I give up,' or something then he's a threat and there's authorization to open fire,""

BTW.....in a blockaded city, where are the civilians supposed to run?

[jazzyfrosty]

Despite calls for investigations into Israeli war crimes in Gaza, no Israeli soldiers or commanders have faced any meaningful consequences.

Speaking to The Guardian, the Israeli military claimed to “investigate all credible claims” of war crimes and misconduct.

Yet, both during the attack and in its wake, Israel repeatedly denied independent human rights investigators access to Gaza. Among those prevented from entering the strip were Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, as well as UN investigators.

To make matters worse, much of Gaza remains in ruins some nine months after the attack concluded. As of late February, only five percent of the international aid promised by donor countries in order to rebuild Gaza had been delivered.

Though limited housing repairs have been made, none of the more than 12,000 Palestinian homes destroyed by Israel have been rebuilt, according to the Association of International Development Agencies.

With the perpetrators of massacres enjoying impunity and international donors failing to make good on its promises, Palestinians in Gaza are unlikely to expect justice in the near future.

[samran]

'Far left' getting a good ole work out here. Next will be that they are socialists.

Dammit, that won't work. How about anti-Semitic???

That is the problem with all of this. No side willing to back away from ludicrous posturing. Makes everyone look like an idiot.

Edited May 6, 2015 by samran

[Jingthing]

You can't blame Israel for the fact that not even the Arab world is helping Gaza now. Like I posted on another thread the quote that Gaza is like a dirty diaper that nobody wants to touch.

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[dexterm]

After reading the report from the NGO monitors, I would think anybody with a reasonable thinking process would realize "Breaking the Silence" has well and truly been declared a source with a one sided agenda.

http://www.ngo-monitor.org/article/europe_to_breaking_the_silence_bring_us_as_many_incriminating_testimonies_as_possible

Try again.

Of course they have a one sided agenda.

By publishing soldiers' accounts, Breaking the Silence hopes to "force Israeli society to address the reality which it created" and face the truth about "abuse towards Palestinians, looting, and destruction of property" that is familiar to soldiers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breaking_the_Silence_(non-governmental_organization)

Just as Israeli apologists have a one sided agenda to maintain the silence and whitewash war crimes.

[Seastallion]

'Far left' getting a good ole work out here. Next will be that they are socialists.

Dammit, that won't work. How about anti-Semitic???

That is the problem with all of this. No side willing to back away from ludicrous posturing. Makes everyone look like an idiot.

I'm always open to constructive criticism.....would you care to point out the ludicrous posturing of us "far left, socialist antismites? Why is condemning war crimes ludicrous, and why should anyone back away from it?

[Scott]

Rather than discussing other posters, let's stay on the topic.

[jazzyfrosty]

Following Breaking the Silence putting their facts on the public domain proves that this misconduct seems to be deliberate - an attempt at ethnic cleansing.

I think that it is increasingly clear that the Israeli government has been in contempt of international norms and is indeed guilty of war crimes. It is also clear at this point that unless the world takes action the way it did versus South Africa during the apartheid, there will be very little consequence for Israel.

Israel simply is not going to respond to anything that the world asks politely. It also has the US backing this up. Most outrageously, American tax dollars are being spent in Israel on its military and in some cases, causing war crimes.

Kudos to this group for being whistle-blowers. It is a tough thing to do and it comes no doubt at a great risk to one's life. It is however, the right thing do. Now I think the rest of the world needs to do the right thing.

[kblaze]

The question was foreign source. You just diverted the question. Maybe follow the thread and get back to me. I don't doubt the NGO watch group is biased. I do doubt they are lying about the foreign source info they put on the link. All you've got is attacking that watch group. You have no proof that their list of foreign source is wrong, do you?

Look, I'm just an observer. I dont have "inside info". You posted a quote from the group alleging the "Source of funds" issue. I posted the rebuttal from the Breaking the Silence group and also pointed out that the group doing the alleging is not an unbiased source.

Don't know what to tell you except that it appears to be one word against the other.

[kblaze]

Anyways, so are all 60 testimonials a complete and utter fabrication in your view? just completely made up in order to further the anti-semitic agenda?

If you actually read the testimonials, many are not all that damning. Their rules of engagement would be true of almost any army on earth. The fact that Breaking the Silence refused to allow soldiers with positive views to participate, pretty much says it all.

They did not "refuse to allow" soldiers with positive views. That is a complete misrepresentation of the purpose of the report. It wasn't supposed to a balanced debate on the goods and bad things the IDF did during the "war".

It's whistleblowing. Are whistleblower reports supposed to present views "from the other side"? No, you are blowing the whistle on the bad activity and thats it.

I'm guessing you get upset at groups like Mothers Against Drunk Driving for not interviewing people who have always enjoyed alcohol problem-free.

[Linky]

Its a wonder how deep some can bury their head in the sand.

[Ulysses G.]

Indeed. To the extend of constantly posting false information on this forum, that is easily disproved.

[Seastallion]

More like, no one is paying anyone to create reports that say that Israel treats Arabs well. There is no political gain from that.

The one-time soldiers, some of who draw salaries from Breaking the Silence, have been motivated by financial and political concerns to push a pro-Palestinian agenda and there have been many allegations that members of the organization have either fabricated or exaggerated their testimonies. When you get NGO money involved, all of a sudden the truth is less important than pleasing your sponsors. This is the problem with all of these anti-Israel NGOs. They depend on funding to exist, and that funding comes from sources that want them to justify their existence by fulfilling the agenda of the funders. The pressure to constantly issue anti-Israel reports is overwhelming.

Your post has the ring of an active imagination about it.

Firstly, exposing Israeli war crimes is not necessarily "pro-Palestinian" at all. Why can't it simply be pro-humanitarian, or anti-war criminal? Those two views are quite reasonable and probably closer to the mark.

"One-time soldiers"...when they fought for Israel, they were brave men....now they are has-beens and not worth listening to?

You claim that " there have been many allegations that members of the organization have either fabricated or exaggerated their testimonies.". Care to back up that claim (from reliable sources, of course)?

The rest of your post "all about the money" is pure speculation and an extension of the smear campaign.

There is little doubt that Israel committed war crimes. Actually, it is certain. Why do people continue to try to deny it?

Edited May 7, 2015 by Seastallion

[Ulysses G.]

A British journalist, hostile to the settlement movement, found Breaking the Silence to be a bunch of illegitimate frauds.

It was only a hunch at first. But later, the bias of the organisation became clearer. During a break between interviews, I asked Yehuda Shaul, one of the founders of the organisation, how the group is funded. It was with some surprise that I learned that 45 per cent of it is donated by European countries, including Norway and Spain, and the European Union. Other donors include UNICEF, Christian Aid and Oxfam GB. To me this seemed potentially problematic.

As is the case in all democracies, the IDF is an organ of the state, not a political decision-maker. If the goal of Breaking the Silence was simply to clean up the Israeli military, it wouldn’t be such a problem. Instead, the aim is to “end the occupation”, and on this basis it secured its funding.

It appeared, therefore, that these former soldiers, some of whom draw salaries from Breaking the Silence, were motivated by financial and political concerns to further a pro-Palestinian agenda. They weren’t merely telling the truth about their experiences. They were under pressure to perform.

Indeed, I later discovered that there have been many allegations in the past that members of the organisation either fabricated or exaggerated their testimonies.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100248886/why-are-european-powers-and-oxfam-funding-a-radical-israeli-group/

[Seastallion]

A British journalist, hostile to the settlement movement, found Breaking the Silence to be a bunch of illegitimate frauds.

It was only a hunch at first. But later, the bias of the organisation became clearer. During a break between interviews, I asked Yehuda Shaul, one of the founders of the organisation, how the group is funded. It was with some surprise that I learned that 45 per cent of it is donated by European countries, including Norway and Spain, and the European Union. Other donors include UNICEF, Christian Aid and Oxfam GB. To me this seemed potentially problematic.

As is the case in all democracies, the IDF is an organ of the state, not a political decision-maker. If the goal of Breaking the Silence was simply to clean up the Israeli military, it wouldn’t be such a problem. Instead, the aim is to “end the occupation”, and on this basis it secured its funding.

It appeared, therefore, that these former soldiers, some of whom draw salaries from Breaking the Silence, were motivated by financial and political concerns to further a pro-Palestinian agenda. They weren’t merely telling the truth about their experiences. They were under pressure to perform.

Indeed, I later discovered that there have been many allegations in the past that members of the organisation either fabricated or exaggerated their testimonies.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/jakewallissimons/100248886/why-are-european-powers-and-oxfam-funding-a-radical-israeli-group/

So, you have been posting quotes from other sources as if they were your own words....all you did in your previous post was exchange the word "former" for "has been". You did not attribute in the slightest.

tut tut tut.

[Scott]

A post in violation of fair use policy has been removed.