Why don't Thais want to pronounce the letter 'R'?

[SiSePuede419]

Why don't Thais want to pronounce the letter 'R'????

It's even part of their consonant alphabet (ร)

1. Why do they insist on changing the ร sound at the end of words to the n sound?

There's already plenty of consonants that make an n sound at the end of words, such as ล

At least with buur (เบอร์), they put a gaa-ran symbol over the r sound.

And the word for computer (คอมพิวเตอร์).

Maybe it's just the aaaaaw sound of อ, but my ears hear the r sound for both these words.

But for the metric units:

liter. ลิตร

meter เมตร

2. Why don't they pronounce ร with the n sound like they do other Thai words with ร as the ending consonant?

3. If they don't want to pronounce the ร at the end of these words, why don't they at least write the ร์ at the end of these words? Thais didn't invent the metric system. These are both borrowed words from a foreign language. Why can't Thais spell these words correctly?

Why can't Thais pronounce the r sound or even spell properly foreign words???

[Richard W]

The Thai alphabet seems to have been adapted for writing Thai just over seven hundred years ago - they didn't invent it from nothing. They kept the ability to preserve the Sanskrit and Pali spellings of loanwords. However, the Thai sound system is different to Khmer, Sanskrit and Pali. It has only nine final consonant sounds - /p/, /t/, /k/, /m/, /n/, /ŋ/ (<nɡ> in RTGS), /w/ (<o> in RTGS), /j/ (<i> in RTGS) and /ʔ/. Final /n/ is the best available approximation to the alien final [r] and similar.

At least with buur (เบอร์), they put a gaa-ran symbol over the r sound.

And the word for computer (คอมพิวเตอร์).
Maybe it's just the aaaaaw sound of อ, but my ears hear the r sound for both these words.

Given that descriptions, you don't know what you're hearing. There's no 'aaaaaw' sound near the end of either word.

Seriously, it's more than likely that you're hearing the Thai vowel as the nearest American vowel, which does have an [r]-component to it. The Thai vowel doesn't - nor does the similar vowel in most British accents.

As to "liter. ลิตร" and "meter เมตร", why can't Americans spell these foreign words correctly?

The words are monosyllabic in French, the language in which they were invented.

A final consonant cluster of two syllables, with the second being ร, does not use karan after a dental stop and may dispense with it in other cases, e.g. จักร [L]jak 'machinery, wheel'.

Finally, the Northern and North-Eastern Thai dialects replaced ร /r/ by ฮ /h/, so many Thais lack /r/ in their (or their parents') native tongue. Standard Thai ฮ only occurs in onomatopoeic words and loanwords, albeit from a neighbouring Tai dialect. Incidentally, in many European languages, the /r/ is the last consonant mastered by children - and many people never get it right.

[Mole]

This is due to Thai etymology, loan words with certain pronunciation just doesn't exist in Thai language. So Thais will pronounce closest according to their limitations.

The limitation of Thai language is that they are unable to pronounce words with certain consonants.

Compare for example to Spanish where any loan words or names will automatically be written according to their etymology. Such as "Stockholm" becoming "Estocolmo".

If you notice, words which already ends with a consonant will not get a karan, while words which ends with vowel will get a karan to indicate a silent ร.

[Happy Grumpy]

liter. ลิตร

meter เมตร

2. Why don't they pronounce ร with the n sound like they do other Thai words with ร as the ending consonant?

Intelligence.

It is more intelligent to just say Leet or Meet, when it is perfectly understood by all. Saves energy and time.

[manarak]

My take on this is that many Thai people are not native Thai speakers, their mother tongue is mainly Isaan/Lao.

Personally, I think central Thai is much easier to understand.

And there is an education component too.

I can compare the situation in Thailand with the same in the US or UK - I'm fluent in English but I understand only about 50% of the language spoken by less educated persons in US and UK, sometimes I understand nothing at all.

[SoiBiker]

Because that's how their language works.

Weird question.

[Richard W]

Compare for example to Spanish where any loan words or names will automatically be written according to their etymology. Such as "Stockholm" becoming "Estocolmo".

Mole had a Freudian slip here - I'm sure he meant to write 'pronunciation', as in the famous summary, "Thai spells words according to their etymology; Lao spells words according to their pronunciation".

[KhunBENQ]

Because that's how their language works.

Weird question.

A harsh but true answer.

Don't try to apply logic to natural languages.

If there would be simple logic behind you wouldn't still get those silly automatic translation results.

[lostoday]

When Western people learn how to pronounce the ng sound Thais will learn r.

[KhunBENQ]

liter. ลิตร

meter เมตร

2. Why don't they pronounce ร with the n sound like they do other Thai words with ร as the ending consonant?

Intelligence.

It is more intelligent to just say Leet or Meet, when it is perfectly understood by all. Saves energy and time.

Its not only intelligent but simply following rules.

"Meet": not the same vocal as in "leet". More like "mayt" (sorry I am not famillar with writing "English" transcription).

The "r" is silent in this case.

But it makes sense to write the "r" at the end to follow/see the loanword.

[SiSePuede419]

"

As to "liter. ลิตร" and "meter เมตร", why can't Americans spell these foreign words correctly?

The words are monosyllabic in French, the language in which they were invented."

No they're not. The French spell words correctly, but they're too lazy to pronounce the last letter of every word.

The only Americans too lazy to pronounce the last letters of words are uneducated Southern Americans and people from Boston, 555

[Aforek]

Because that's how their language works.

Weird question.

I don't say " weird question", but I say " good answer " ; the particularities of thai language are why I love it

No they're not. The French spell words correctly, but they're too lazy to pronounce the last letter of every word.

Again, something wrong ! from what do you think that French don't pronounce the last letter of every word ?

You speak of feminine and masculine words or adjectives ? for instance :venu, venue, venues ; parti, partie, parties ? yes , same pronouciation, but not lazyness; like Thai language, it's how the language works ( and it's not every word )

[CMBob]

What a silly question suggesting that the Thais don't "want" to pronounce the letter "r." It isn't a question of wanting at all. Just as silly as Thais asking westerners why they don't "want" to pronounce the letter "ง."

[manarak]

Because that's how their language works.

Weird question.

I don't say " weird question", but I say " good answer " ; the particularities of thai language are why I love it

No they're not. The French spell words correctly, but they're too lazy to pronounce the last letter of every word.

Again, something wrong ! from what do you think that French don't pronounce the last letter of every word ?

You speak of feminine and masculine words or adjectives ? for instance :venu, venue, venues ; parti, partie, parties ? yes , same pronouciation, but not lazyness; like Thai language, it's how the language works ( and it's not every word )

What silly arguments are made here about French - French words have ONE correct way to spell them and ONE correct way to pronounce them, as defined by the Academie Francaise.

Standard Thai is officially codified with standard grammar and spelling and taught in schools. It includes some pronounciation of the R sound.

People who don't pronounce the R correctly are not speaking standard Thai, period.

[CMBob]

Standard Thai is officially codified with standard grammar and spelling and taught in schools. It includes some pronounciation of the R sound.

People who don't pronounce the R correctly are not speaking standard Thai, period.

Perhaps better said that an "r" (usually rolled) is part of the "central" Thai language and/or government-approved Thai language. But one should keep in mind that the bulk of the population of Thailand in Isaan and the North generally don't pronounce an "r" (never have and never will); instead, they use an "l" or "h" sound and, to them, that's standard or normal.

[SoiBiker]

An 'L' sound is probably better understood than the incorrect 'R' sound many farangs use, anyway.

[loloal]

3. If they don't want to pronounce the ร at the end of these words, why don't they at least write the ร์ at the end of these words? Thais didn't invent the metric system. These are both borrowed words from a foreign language. Why can't Thais spell these words correctly?

I'd answer your #3 question with the #3 rule from Royal Institute's "Rules for Transcribing English Words (into Thai)" :

3. Some transcribed words have been used (by Thais) for so long that they are considered Thai words and are already included in the Royal Institute Dictionary of the Thai Language. These transcribed forms should continue to be utilized. Such words include the Thai words for “chocolate,” “shirt,” and “gas.”

I guess this is the reason for words like "metre" too, assuming it's been used for a long time too.

เมตร is from french word mètre

มิเตอร์ is from english word meter and I assume its usage is newer, so it respects this #3 rule

Why don't Thais want to pronounce the letter 'R'?

Why don't you want to speak perfect spoken Thai ?

It's clearly not about wanting, it's about training.

Producing sounds you've never pronounced in your whole life isn't something you'll instantly do just because you want it.

You have to build a whole new muscular memory. Just because ร looks like an 'r' at the beginning of a syllabe, doesn't mean Thais are able to pronounce it at the end of the syllabe. The muscle aren't trained to do that.

I guess the obvious opposite exemple is, assuming you're an english speaker, you easily pronounce an 'ng' sound at the end of an '_ing' word, but you have to concentrate to hardly pronounce it at the beginning of a syllabe.

1. Why do they insist on changing the ร sound at the end of words to the n sound?

Why do english speakers insist on pronouncing though through thought thorough so differently, while for me french speaker they look so similar ?

Every language as its own characteristics, and in the case of Thai to me all those subtle little things make the charm of the language.

[lostoday]

Because that's how their language works.

Weird question.

I don't say " weird question", but I say " good answer " ; the particularities of thai language are why I love it

No they're not. The French spell words correctly, but they're too lazy to pronounce the last letter of every word.

Again, something wrong ! from what do you think that French don't pronounce the last letter of every word ?

You speak of feminine and masculine words or adjectives ? for instance :venu, venue, venues ; parti, partie, parties ? yes , same pronouciation, but not lazyness; like Thai language, it's how the language works ( and it's not every word )

What silly arguments are made here about French - French words have ONE correct way to spell them and ONE correct way to pronounce them, as defined by the Academie Francaise.

Standard Thai is officially codified with standard grammar and spelling and taught in schools. It includes some pronounciation of the R sound.

People who don't pronounce the R correctly are not speaking standard Thai, period.

I know about Northern Thai and Issan Thai and Bangkok Thai and Tak Bai and Sultan Thai . Standard Thai? That's a new one on me.

[Aforek]

People who don't pronounce the R correctly are not speaking standard Thai, period.

The R correctly, I know what it is, I have heard it pronouced by Thai people who " teach " how it should be pronounced, but in every day life, I never hear it : always like L , anywhere in Thailand

for me, anyway, it's much easier to say L than their R

[tifino]

funnily today missus was in deep conversation with neighbour about lent, though she's meaning rent, while she was eating an appen.

And I'm thinking of renaming myseff Lus, and I'll have to sell the Ueee - to buy a car she can pronounce - but it won't be a Lorrs Loyce

Us fal®angs can raugh roudry about this, as we are capab'n of the required ratelar thinking needed to quickly tlansritelate the spoken, into learity

[manarak]

Standard Thai is officially codified with standard grammar and spelling and taught in schools. It includes some pronounciation of the R sound.

People who don't pronounce the R correctly are not speaking standard Thai, period.

Perhaps better said that an "r" (usually rolled) is part of the "central" Thai language and/or government-approved Thai language. But one should keep in mind that the bulk of the population of Thailand in Isaan and the North generally don't pronounce an "r" (never have and never will); instead, they use an "l" or "h" sound and, to them, that's standard or normal.

No disagreement here - so-called "standard Thai" is the official language of the Thai state and the language supposedly taught at schools.

Isaan is a dialect that is more close to Lao than to Thai, and when they speak Thai using Lao pronounciation, it also is a dialect.

Central Thai is the Thai dialect that is the closest to Standard Thai but not quite.

The situation is comparable with that of Germany, where "Hochdeutsch" (= lit. "high German") has been similarly codified as "Standard German", but in fact nobody in Germany speaks perfect Hochdeutsch.

[Mole]

English has also certain limitations.

For example the ต sound only exist when in consonant cluster such as "st" and ป in "sp". ง can only be pronounced when it's in middle or at the end of words, never at the beginning.

That's why farangs always have difficulty pronouncing ต and ป and ง correctly at the beginning of words.

Same limitation in Thai where only certain consonants at the end of words can be pronounced.

[tifino]

test'em on Aruminium

'drive safe' become 'dry salf'

Played an LP Lecord to milfie this evening - not because of how she calls it, but she's never seen one playing before!!!! (must be too young)

Pass the Sort at dinner table

[Johpa]

Why don't Thais want to pronounce the letter 'R'????

It's even part of their consonant alphabet (ร)

1. Why do they insist on changing the ร sound at the end of words to the n sound?

Oh my, you really should get your hands on an introductory book on linguistics to get an appreciation of phonological fun filled facts. I am over simplifying those fun filled facts a bit here, but Thai phonological rules do not allow the open liquid consonant /r/ to be a syllable final sound and thus it becomes a sonorant /n/. Really no different, in the concept that it is a phonological rule, than the English plural morpheme 's' is the voiceless 's' sound after a voiceless consonant but becomes the voiced sound of the letter 'z' after a voiced consonant. It is just a phonological rule of the language and the variance of these rules over time leads to dialects and eventually, over very long stretches of time, different mutually unintelligible languages. And dialects, when they become spoken at the seat of power, become "the standard" language of the realm. In the UK there are many dialects of English spoken. And even this Yank can identify to some degree with accuracy which region of England a person comes from. And it is just historical happenstance and geography that one dialect became "The Queen's English" and certainly not because of some inherently imagined superior linguistic reason.

[SlyAnimal]

The Thai language tries to maintain a close approximation of the spelling of loan words like meter, liter and computer.

However most Thai people don't know the English way of saying the word and so simply read it how it's spelt. And how they're spelt, when using the Thai language system, doesn't necessarily produce the same sound that we would in English etc.

Thai people who have studied English, and thus know the English language system and how to say words correctly in English, often choose to still use the common Thai pronunciation of loanwords because they're better understood by most Thai people. However when speaking to foreigners, may change their pronunciation.

Also 'R' is more difficult to say properly than most letters, and so a lot of people get lazy when speaking. Which is why even many central Thai people, will replace "R"s with "L"s in many words. We do the same thing in English e.g. Other than the Irish, when most English speakers say Ireland, it sounds like I-Land not Ire-Land, despite seeing that it's obviously spelt "Ireland" not "Island" or "I-land", and even knowing that the Irish pronounce it as "Ireland".

[tifino]

A great Reference to look out for in the bookstore:

ISBN 974 931 08601

it is Real, not a typical Thai copy of someone else's either!

A Thai-Eglish Translation Dictionary/Phrasebook, with the best Transliteration effort I have seen by far!

I got this via our Monk, and has been invaluable - he had another and it remains by his side

[Richard W]

The Thai language tries to maintain a close approximation of the spelling of loan words like meter, liter and computer.

The borrowing of English meter 'measuring device' as มิเตอร์ is not too bad. The French words mètre /mɛtʁ/ 'meter' and litre /litʁ/ 'litre' are not easy for the English either. Perhaps the French don't find them easy either - French pronunciations are all over the place. Now, what is slightly odd is the discordant pronunciation and spelling - spelt เมตร but pronounced [H]meet (same tone as เม็ด). See the Matichon article (in Thai) Royal Institute Pronunciation Corrections for confirmation that a phonetic spelling would have mai tho.

[Aforek]

The French words mètre /mɛtʁ/ 'meter' and litre /litʁ/ 'litre' are not easy for the English either. Perhaps the French don't find them easy either - French pronunciations are all over the place. Now, what is slightly odd is the discordant pronunciation and spelling - spelt เมตร but pronounced [H]meet (same tone as เม็ด). See the Matichon article (in Thai) Royal Institute Pronunciation Corrections for confirmation that a phonetic spelling would have mai tho.

R in a French way is very easy to pronouce for us French, you can understand it ; as for "mètre", it's exactly the same pronounciation than the verb " "mettre " ( to put ) );

why Thai write "เมตร" and pronounce "เม็ด" ?. I wonder why there is not a karan over the ร because it's a foreign origin and they don't pronouce it

are you sure that เมตร is hight tone ? my dictionnary and thai language.com says it's falling tone

[Richard W]

R in a French way is very easy to pronouce for us French, you can understand it ; as for "mètre", it's exactly the same pronounciation than the verb " "mettre " ( to put ) );

A surprising number of sites supposedly giving the pronunciation have a clearly enunciated schwa at the end of the word in isolation or utterance final, and the 'r' is not very guttural.

why Thai write "เมตร" and pronounce "เม็ด" ?. I wonder why there is not a karan over the ร because it's a foreign origin and they don't pronouce it

See earlier post for the lack of karan on final ร. I searched a list of 18,057 Thai words, and final ร์ only occurs after ด ต ถ ท or ธ if it also silences that letter. It might also be relevant that the word is not borrowed from English.

are you sure that เมตร is hight tone ? my dictionnary and thai language.com says it's falling tone

Search the referenced Matichon article Royal Institute Pronunciation Corrections for the word. It shows that the official assessment is that is pronounced as though spelt เม้ด. As to thai-language.com, can you find any evidence that the pronunciation has been reviewed? By default, the pronunciation shown is deduced from the spelling. My dictionary, New Standard English Dictionary by Nit Tongsopit, shows the tone as high. Unfortunately, it's not reliable on vowel length.

[dageurreotype]

When Western people learn how to pronounce the ng sound Thais will learn r.

I can pronounce the ng sound. But there again, I'm not razy.