New UK visa rules

[missmekhong]

Sorry,I am new to this......and this may be covered but I cannot find it all in one place!

1.Am I right in understanding that my daughter (Thai national) cannot get a visa to go to school in the UK unless she is aged 15 and/or unless she goes to a private/feepaying school? If she went on a "tourist" visa could a UK school accept her for 6 months? If we wait until she is 15 and then wants to go under Tier 4, can any school apply to be a Tier 4 sponsor?

2. Under new April regulations--if my wife (Thai National) wants to go to the UK for more than 6 months, or wishes to travel there and back within the period what visa should she apply for? The rules for FLR are particularly opaque!

3.If my wife and child have long stay schengen visas for France initially, can they apply for UK visas from France?

4, What are the implications of the IELTS etc tests for them. There is a lot of stuff on the UK Gov websites about Tests and Fees but almost nothing about what they would need to know!! Can they do the tests in France or must they do them in Thailand?

Help please!!

[wooloomooloo]

missmekhong - great first post but very hard to put a finger on what your objectives are.

To help you along a little:

1. How old is your stepdaughter?

2. This is the most interesting question you've posed, so, please elaborate. Do you want your family to settle permanently in the UK or that you would like them to come and go as they please, i.e. not settle permanently in the UK?

3. See Q.2.

4. Tests questions can be answered succinctly once it's established what your intentions are.

[7by7]

1) Persons in the UK with a visit visa cannot undertake a course of study.

If you wish your daughter to attend school in the UK without settling there then she will need a Tier 4 (child) student visa (available to those aged between 4 and 17) and will only be able to study at a fee paying school which is a licenced Tier 4 sponsor, not a state one.

Were you all to move the UK to settle and so she became a UK resident then not only could she study at a state school, your Local Education Authority would be legally obligated to find her a place at one.

2) Although visit visas are available for a variety of terms, up to 10 years, a visitor can only spend a maximum of 6 months in the UK per visit and, usually, a maximum of 6 months out of any 12.

FLR, Further Leave to Remain, is part of the 5 year settlement process leading to Indefinite Leave to remain.

So what are your wife's intentions; regular visits or long term settlement or something else?

3) Yes, they can apply for a UK visit visa while in France, but not any other category unless actually resident there.

4) As EU/EEA nationals are exempt from the language requirement, I doubt that there are any test centres in France. But if there are, your wife could take the test there. She could also take it while in the UK as a visitor, though she could not undertake a course of study for it.

Assuming your daughter is under 18, she is exempt from the requirement.

The requirement is A1 in speaking and listening, and is only required for certain types of visa, e.g. settlement. It is not needed for a visit visa nor a Tier 4 (child) student visa.

Finally, you call the child 'my daughter.'

Is she your biological daughter or your step daughter?

If your biological daughter and you are British otherwise than by descent (see here) then she is British as well as Thai and so you should obtain a British passport for her; technically any visa application by a British citizen should be refused; see here.

Though I am uncertain about whether a British child who is resident abroad is entitled to a place at a state school or not.

[missmekhong]

Thank you to the two people who have taken the time to read and reply!

We have 2 daughters aged 12 and 13

One has UK, French and Thai passports and therefore presents few problems ;She was born in Thailand. I think she is a UK resident, though the possibility that she is not by virtue of living abroad most of her life and therefore not permitted a UK state education, is an interesting one. She has no UK income. We obviously do not claim Child Benefit on that ground but she does have an NHS card

We do not want to relocate to the UK, so FLR and settlement are not issues. We have a life in Thailand and in the UK. Though my wife is "miffed" that she cannot come and go freely without endless new visas.

The second daughter is the problem! She is 100%Thai. No Uk etc. passports. Not my biological child. We would like them both to go to school together in the UK, particularly to study for GCSE. It looks like we will have to wait until No 2 is 15.........If I have read it right, she can then apply to go to a UK secondary school, state or fee paying....whether that is on a Tier 4 visa or not I am not clear. Is there no way she can go to school as a 'visiting student'?

We have houses in France and the UK, which Is why I was raising the questions about where to apply for visas. It may well be that the socalled Surinder Singh route, on the basis of the long term Schengen Visa is the best way forward, but it seems risky to me?

Thanks

[7by7]

All children between the ages of 4 and 17 who are resident in the UK are entitled to a free place in a state school.

It is not a child's nationality which entitles them to a place at a state school, it is their residency; that is they must be actually living in the UK rather than staying temporarily simply to attend school.

Although, as I said, I am not sure about a British child who is resident abroad. The closest I can find is Schools admissions: applications from overseas children from the Dept. of Education; which doesn't mention non resident British children at all.

Your other, totally Thai child is definitely not entitled to a UK state education, no matter her age, until and unless she becomes a UK resident by virtue of being granted a settlement visa or other leave to remain and is actually living in the UK.

So, unless you and your family do move to the UK to settle, she can only attend a fee paying school in the UK and will need a Tier 4 (child) student visa as per my previous post in order to do so.

A short term study visa, previously called a student visit visa, is only available to those whose course of study lasts for 6 months or less (11 months if studying English). It cannot be extended and does not allow study at a state school; so is not an option for her.

I'd be interested to know why you think that her reaching the age of 15 would change any that; as far as I am aware a child's age makes no difference. Where did you get that information from?

For your family to qualify for UK residency under the EEA regulations via Surinder Singh you would need to be living in France for three months at the very minimum and 'established the centre of your life' there. Owning a property there coupled with even regular visits would not be enough.

You, yourself as the British national, would also need to be exercising an economic treaty right there; these are:

• student,
• worker,
• self employed,
• jobseeker, or
• living off independent means such as a pension.

Despite a recent ECJ ruling, the UK still only allow Surinder Singh applications if the British family member has been a worker or self employed; it will probably take a lengthy court case to get them to change their mind.

Of course, were you to follow this route, then once resident in the UK both your children would be entitled to a place at a state school.

[missmekhong]

Thank you

As I understand it??!! Once a child is 16 they can attend any course at a college/school which has tier 4 child approval. That basically means they could study for A levels but not GCSE. Of course they could study iGCSE in Thailand.

Not sure where I found the age 15 rule. Anyway 15 is too late.!!

As I am retired the French residency for me does not really enter the Surinder Singh scenario. And anyway I am a UK resident as is my UK daughter. However I think you are right that my wife and the Thai child would need to show that they have been clearly 'resident' in France. That would require them to have long stay Schengen Visas. Interestingly, unlike the UK, you can, with the appropriate visa, study in France at both publicly funded and private institutions.

Of course if the USA decides to start a shooting match we are probably better off going nowhere!

[bobrussell]

If your wife wishes to stay in the UK for more than six months there seems little option beyond a settlement visa. Applying for settlement does not commit to settling permanently but must be cheaper than paying for private school.

Both children could be educated together and your wife would be free to move back and forth at will, at least until FLR was required.

Clearly the financial requirements etc would have to be achieved but settlement would seem the logical visa type in this situation.

I cannot see a 'halfway house' visa option!

[wooloomooloo]

Here's what I find slightly confusing, missmekhong. If your stepdaughter were to study in the UK for the next, say, at least three to five years then that would be full-time study. Obviously, or so I would assume, you and your wife would want to be around while she undertakes these studies and subsequent exams in the UK?

Though, I understand that you have lives in LOS and France, settlement for your wife and stepdaughter would be most timely for this period of your stepdaughter's life. Your wife and stepdaughter can safely take up to 90 days holidays abroad a year [or 450 days over five years and no more than 90 days for the last year of the five year period], though this would be school holidays for your stepdaughter, for which there are many as you know.

Notwithstanding, you state that your wife's slightly miffed with the constant requirement for visit visas to the UK.

Looking from the outside in, is this not the perfect opportunity to kill half a dozen birds (if not a few more) with one stone? Okay, a few comprises would be required but that's life.

Hold out for long enough and two British passports await.

Edited May 11, 2015 by wooloomooloo

[Donutz]

I'm confused, if Thai spouse & child of a UK citizen go to France, not on a (free) short term holiday visa to France but on a long term "visa", this should be a residence permit. Such a residence permit would have to read "family member of EU/EE national" and this in turn would allow one to travel visa free to the UK and (if you did the Sighn route properly) allow you to apply for residency in the UK aswell under EU rules (Directive 2004/38, Freedom of Movement).

[7by7]

Thank you

As I understand it??!! Once a child is 16 they can attend any course at a college/school which has tier 4 child approval. That basically means they could study for A levels but not GCSE. Of course they could study iGCSE in Thailand.

Not sure where I found the age 15 rule. Anyway 15 is too late.!!

A Tier 4 (Child) student visa is available to any child aged between 4 and 17 who meets the eligibility requirements; one of which is having an unconditional offer of a place on a course with a licensed Tier 4 sponsor.

As far as I am aware, there are no state schools on the list of licensed sponsors, and even if they were a Tier 4 (Child) student visa holder would not be entitled to a state funded education in the UK and so have to pay whatever fees the school charged.

Overseas students aged 18 or over are not eligible for a Tier 4 (Child) student visa, instead they require a Tier 4 (General) student visa if they wish to study in the UK.

Students aged 16 and 17 can apply for either, according to their needs. Which may be where your confusion over being above the age of 15 has come from.

As well as the age of the student, one of the main differences between a child visa and a general one is that for a general one the applicant, unless exempt, is required to demonstrate a knowledge of English, the standard being dependant on the course they will be studying.

Those applying for a child student visa are not required to demonstrate their English ability.

As said, the only way that your Thai step child will be entitled to a free, state education in the UK is if she were to become a settled person in the UK.

So I agree with the others above, the only option you seem to have in order to obtain a UK state education for her is for she and your wife to apply for settlement visas and move to the UK with you.

<snip>

Your wife and stepdaughter can safely take up to 90 days holidays abroad a year [or 450 days over five years and no more than 90 days for the last year of the five year period.........

Not quite.

There is no limit on how long a person may be outside the UK for while qualifying for Indefinite Leave to Remain; though when applying for that they do need to show that they are UK residents and have been for the full 5 years. Which may be difficult to do if they have spent more time out of the UK than in.

The limit you quote is part of the residential qualification for naturalisation as British; unless the applicant is the spouse or civil partner of a British citizen.

In that case it is no more than 270 days in total over the last three years with no more than 90 days in the final year.

Of course, as another requirement is no time limit on one's stay in the UK, e.g. ILR, and this takes 5 years to obtain, then Mrs missmekhong would effectively need to live in the UK for at least 5 years before she could apply for naturalisation.

Children under 18 are different. They cannot be naturalised, instead they are registered. The qualification is different, with no actual limit on time spent out of the UK, for example.

See British citizenship basics for more on this.

Missmekhong, like wooloomooloo, I do find it difficult to understand why you and your wife would not want to be living in the UK while your children attended school here.

So settlement does seem to be the most viable option; provided you meet the requirements for same; the financial one in particular.

If you don't, then there is always the option of living in France for a bit and then trying the Surinder Singh route; or even living in France indefinitely and having your children educated there.

There are schools in France teaching the English national curriculum; Expat guide to France: schools.

Though if you can afford their fees, you probably meet the financial requirement for UK settlement anyway.

Edited May 11, 2015 by 7by7

[wooloomooloo]

Indeed, 7by7, though I was thinking longer term with a view to citizenship for the OPs wife and stepdaughter.

I get the impression the OP wants the end result but without the long term effort. No disrespect intended, missmekhong.

[Jay Sata]

Missmekhong, like wooloomooloo, I do find it difficult to understand why you and your wife would not want to be living in the UK while your children attended school here.

.

There are many parents who send their children to boarding school and are not hanging around as school run addicts until the day they go to university.

Both of my offspring were boarders from the age of 11 until 18 and claim it was a wonderul life.

Many of their friends came from the Far East and would only return home to see parents at Easter or Summer holidays.

I would be looking at other education options. A free UK state school education in the wrong part of the country is often worth little or nothing.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Jay Sata

[wooloomooloo]

We have a life in Thailand and in the UK. Though my wife is "miffed" that she cannot come and go freely without endless new visas.

Though, I understand that you have lives in LOS and France

Apologies, I should have stated lives in Thailand, UK and France.

[missmekhong]

Thank you all.

My goodness one can get into knots!!

We want the children to go to school in the UK.. We would try to base ourselves in the UK. I understand what people say about some state schools. However I went to quite prestigious UK boarding schools from 8 to 18 which were a complete waste of space(and some grand universities which were no better!). Also in the UK we live in Wales where, generally speaking, the standard of education and pastoral care is very high.And the local university is awash with Korean and Japanese. So no shortage of 'biodiversity'!

We want to live in the UK for school; but my wife has businesses here she cannot easily throw away. So she wants to come and go. Also like many middle class Thais not being a gold digger or a bar girl she sees no reason to become a UK resident or to settle. But she has some severe reservations about the Thai education system and probably more about UK schools opening campuses in Thailand.

Cant quite see what "the end result without the effort" means! The end result I suppose is that they have qualifications recognised worldwide, that they are multilingual and can make their own lives. I can assure you that the effort involved in ferrying them around the world, ensuring they maintain their language skills, providing stable homes etc. has not been 'without effort' (nor expense)!

I do appreciate all your comments!

[Jay Sata]

Thank you all.

My goodness one can get into knots!!

We want the children to go to school in the UK.. We would try to base ourselves in the UK. I understand what people say about some state schools. However I went to quite prestigious UK boarding schools from 8 to 18 which were a complete waste of space(and some grand universities which were no better!). Also in the UK we live in Wales where, generally speaking, the standard of education and pastoral care is very high.And the local university is awash with Korean and Japanese. So no shortage of 'biodiversity'!

We want to live in the UK for school; but my wife has businesses here she cannot easily throw away. So she wants to come and go. Also like many middle class Thais not being a gold digger or a bar girl she sees no reason to become a UK resident or to settle. But she has some severe reservations about the Thai education system and probably more about UK schools opening campuses in Thailand.

Cant quite see what "the end result without the effort" means! The end result I suppose is that they have qualifications recognised worldwide, that they are multilingual and can make their own lives. I can assure you that the effort involved in ferrying them around the world, ensuring they maintain their language skills, providing stable homes etc. has not been 'without effort' (nor expense)!

I do appreciate all your comments!

Point taken.

There certainly are some good schools in Wales but the downside is the mandatory tuition of the Welsh language which near enough useless in a modern world. I left Wales after my children were born in Cardiff to avoid them being educated there.

Sadly Wales also has some pretty abysmal schools mostly in the old industrialised areas.

The weather is another issue unless you like grey skies and lots of rain.

Give me France or England in the summer and Thailand once the clocks go back. Have you thought about some of the excellent international boarding schools in Thailand?

[wooloomooloo]

Also like many middle class Thais not being a gold digger or a bar girl she sees no reason to become a UK resident or to settle.

Hmmm. Everyone's entitled to their opinion, I suppose. Rather a broad generalisation, but, who am I to judge.

You can't have your cake and eat it, though.

[tebee]

OK I'm biased, but can I suggest going to France and getting your girls educated there ? Wife and kids get automatic visa, they can apply for a residence card when they get there - it takes 6 months plus to get this, but once they do, can freely travel with you to UK and rest of Europe.

French schools are excellent, I had two girls, about the age of your two from a previous relationship, who went to school here so I speak from experience. I would avoid the international schools, but maybe use one of the French private schools - these are state subsidised, the fees at the one our girls went to were around 250 euros a year. Some offer very cheap boarding facilities too, but these are normally just in the week, most French kids go home for the weekend.

Yours are a little bit older, so maybe find it harder to adjust to French language, but they will be given a lot of help if their school is like ours. They can learn English as a second language and when they go to university there are no tuition fees in France.

My bias - I'm English, but have lived in France for over 12 years. I'm now married to a nice middle class Thai girl ( a doctor ) and we spend part of the year in France and part in Thailand where she still works part time. My business is domiciled in France, but it's internet based so I can work from either country. We will probably move to France permanently when my step-son from this relationship finishes university, but still come back to Thailand frequently.

[7by7]

Also like many middle class Thais not being a gold digger or a bar girl she sees no reason to become a UK resident or to settle.

As someone who has lived happily in the UK for nearly 15 years with his Thai wife, I find this implication that my wife is a gold digger and/or a prostitute highly offensive.

Of course, you and your wife have one reason for moving to the UK; you want a free education for your children paid for by the British taxpayer; my wife and I included!

Edited May 12, 2015 by 7by7

[wooloomooloo]

I'm happily at year 5 with my Thai wife and this took the edge off an otherwise interesting thread.

My wife would be quite upset if I pointed it out.

[theoldgit]

I am a tad disappointed that having come onto this forum to seek advice, which a number of members took the time and trouble to give, a member has resorted to insulting Thai people, which contravenes forum rules.

I'm sure the remark was made in error, but please be careful what you write.

[missmekhong]

Oh dear. I think people are a bit touchy.There was no suggestion that your wives/girlfriends were/are anything but honourable people. If you read the post differently I apologise. I have rather come to the conclusion that the issue is, at least in the short term, pretty much insoluble! I think tebee probably has the answer!

Edited May 13, 2015 by missmekhong

[7by7]

Apology accepted.

You have been given the options open to you:-

1. Settle in the UK so your children are entitled to a free UK state education.
2. Live outside the UK and send your children to fee paying schools in the UK.
3. Live outside the UK and send your children to schools in the country where you live. Possibly free, possibly fee paying depending on the regulations of the country concerned and your personal choice.

All you have to do is decide which of those three options suit you and your family the best.

It seems that you find the issue 'insoluble' because you want your children to receive a free state education in the UK without being UK residents; that is not going to happen.

Edited May 14, 2015 by 7by7