Five years after Thai Red Shirt killings, wounds still fresh

[ggt]

May need to use some antiseptic and a bandage...to keep the wound from becoming infected...then move on with your life...

[mikemac]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Not Bangkok, just part of central world owned by the rich types behind one coup after another and who crap on the rights and freedoms of ordinary Thais.

Plus about 34 other locations in Bangkok, plus a lot of looted ATMs, 7/11's and so. All justified by some.

.........................."Not Bangkok, just part of central world owned by the rich types behind one coup after another and who crap on the rights and freedoms of ordinary Thais.".........................

I seem to remember Government buildings in the North and North-East being damaged as well. Remember having to detour around Nawarat Bridge in Chiang Mai because "someone" had decided to use it to burn lots of tires, blocking the bridge.

Did this damaged property also belong to the "rich types" mentioned ?

[trogers]

<script type='text/javascript'>window.mod_pagespeed_start = Number(new Date());</script>

Five years after Thai Red Shirt killings, wounds still fresh

Peace TV and a propaganda mill will do that.

relatives of those killed say unrepentant army rulers have failed in their promise to heal the country's deep divisions.

The NCPO has been in power less than a year and they expect healing in the face of Thaksin's propaganda machine? This is why Article 44 and bans on political gatherings need to continue until we stop seeing news article like this.

crackdown on Thailand's pro-democracy 'Red Shirts'

Those protesters were not in Bangkok because they were fighting for 'democracy'; none of them even knew what 'democracy' is. They were there because the 'Paymaster in Dubai' was providing free transportation and a Bt. 500 daily stipend for them to be there. It was a hired mob attempting to overthrow a genuinely democratically elected government. These people had been and still are being brainwashed to believe Thaksin's side of the story.

I wonder how much Thaksin's representatives had to pay AFP to get this piece of propaganda published.

'The redshirts were fighting for democracy'

That's the mother of all dishonest / misleading statements this year.

The red shirts love democracy so much that they provided armed militants at the Friendship bridge to greet protesting farmers over a year ago...

[tbthailand]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

[tbthailand]

I don’t believe for a moment that the author of the article had reconciliation on the mind when writing it and was more inclined to put fuel into the remnants to get the fire started again.

Anybody speaking of armed protesters and referring to a demonstration that is supposed to be based on rules, which are well established and governed by laws in democracies, hasn’t a glimpse what the roots of the problems are in Thailand. That also applies to the events that have been broadcasted worldwide when a different group of protestors invaded the main police station in Bangkok only this time we had a government that subscribed to a different political colour.

As long as we in Thailand don’t understand what democracy actually means we don’t deserve it! We will repeat the errors and mistakes of our past and feel justified to use violence to bring down a government that hasn’t got our vote.

Our problem is an educational one and the fact that we don’t talk about the wrongs we committed in the past, and that includes all governments I have watched for over 20 years from abroad and the ones I had to live under when returning to Thailand. Taking our political parties and the so called well educated elite we notice that they all talk about democracy but for each of them the meaning is obscured by their inability to consider compromise, which is essential in a democracy.

Before Thailand can achieve democracy it will have to change her educational system and start teaching children how democracies function. That violence to express dissent is not a democratic expression but the first step on the road to anarchy.

I believe that your view of Thai democracy and democracy in general is precisely upside down.

Thai democracy has never been a problem of educating the people but a problem of elites and generals.

(I do agree about the issue of political compromise but that is not fundamental IMO to the reason that democracy hasn't survived in Thailand...)

Edited May 14, 2015 by tbthailand

[tbthailand]

And again AFP writes twisted rubbish which is way less than truthful and severely lacking in balance.

[lovetotravel]

I don’t believe for a moment that the author of the article had reconciliation on the mind when writing it and was more inclined to put fuel into the remnants to get the fire started again.

Anybody speaking of armed protesters and referring to a demonstration that is supposed to be based on rules, which are well established and governed by laws in democracies, hasn’t a glimpse what the roots of the problems are in Thailand. That also applies to the events that have been broadcasted worldwide when a different group of protestors invaded the main police station in Bangkok only this time we had a government that subscribed to a different political colour.

As long as we in Thailand don’t understand what democracy actually means we don’t deserve it! We will repeat the errors and mistakes of our past and feel justified to use violence to bring down a government that hasn’t got our vote.

Our problem is an educational one and the fact that we don’t talk about the wrongs we committed in the past, and that includes all governments I have watched for over 20 years from abroad and the ones I had to live under when returning to Thailand. Taking our political parties and the so called well educated elite we notice that they all talk about democracy but for each of them the meaning is obscured by their inability to consider compromise, which is essential in a democracy.

Before Thailand can achieve democracy it will have to change her educational system and start teaching children how democracies function. That violence to express dissent is not a democratic expression but the first step on the road to anarchy.

I believe that your view of Thai democracy and democracy in general is precisely upside down.

Thai democracy has never been a problem of educating the people but a problem of elites and generals.

(I do agree about the issue of political compromise but that is not fundamental IMO to the reason that democracy hasn't survived in Thailand...)

The general population here sure doesn't know what democracy is all about. They are taught about it by the elites (from both parties). I doubt the general population in many Western nations fully understand it either.

[Puwa]

It's always painful to lose a loved one, regardless of the circumstance. Here, the circumstance was a convoluted mess, the blame for which can't be neatly assigned to only one side. This article does a disservice to the surviving relatives, and to the nation, by using their grief as a pretext to repeat the same old oversimplified reading of those events. More valuable and more interesting journalism would explore a broader set of questions: What does it mean to be a red shirt today? How did the 2010 protests affect local politics and issues in rural Thailand? What are the prominent leaders of 2010, on both sides, doing today? Exploring such topics might be more enloghtening, and less pointlessly divisive, than what was published today.

[mikemac]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

A vicious crackdown which should never had happened, it should not have dragged out for as long as it did and you can blame the terrorists and the moron pulling their strings for that.

If the same thing happened to the yellow supporters you reds would be laughing your heads off.

[tbthailand]

I don’t believe for a moment that the author of the article had reconciliation on the mind when writing it and was more inclined to put fuel into the remnants to get the fire started again.

Anybody speaking of armed protesters and referring to a demonstration that is supposed to be based on rules, which are well established and governed by laws in democracies, hasn’t a glimpse what the roots of the problems are in Thailand. That also applies to the events that have been broadcasted worldwide when a different group of protestors invaded the main police station in Bangkok only this time we had a government that subscribed to a different political colour.

As long as we in Thailand don’t understand what democracy actually means we don’t deserve it! We will repeat the errors and mistakes of our past and feel justified to use violence to bring down a government that hasn’t got our vote.

Our problem is an educational one and the fact that we don’t talk about the wrongs we committed in the past, and that includes all governments I have watched for over 20 years from abroad and the ones I had to live under when returning to Thailand. Taking our political parties and the so called well educated elite we notice that they all talk about democracy but for each of them the meaning is obscured by their inability to consider compromise, which is essential in a democracy.

Before Thailand can achieve democracy it will have to change her educational system and start teaching children how democracies function. That violence to express dissent is not a democratic expression but the first step on the road to anarchy.

I believe that your view of Thai democracy and democracy in general is precisely upside down.

Thai democracy has never been a problem of educating the people but a problem of elites and generals.

(I do agree about the issue of political compromise but that is not fundamental IMO to the reason that democracy hasn't survived in Thailand...)

The general population here sure doesn't know what democracy is all about. They are taught about it by the elites (from both parties). I doubt the general population in many Western nations fully understand it either.

I have to disagree with the foundation of your statement.

When it comes to how much people understand about the details of their own systems, then every country has many people - educated and not - who don't understand how their own systems work.

But as for understanding democracy ... I haven't met a single (non-elite) Thai who has a problem understanding democracy.

[tbthailand]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

A vicious crackdown which should never had happened, it should not have dragged out for as long as it did and you can blame the terrorists and the moron pulling their strings for that.

If the same thing happened to the yellow supporters you reds would be laughing your heads off.

no you cannot blame the red shirts for the crackdown, nor for the deaths - especially the last 6 days when nearly 60 died

and how many times do you need to read the balanced replies of people who disagree with the Junta and the military / elite axis to understand that we despise the violence from both sides, ... and how many times do you need to read that the group killing the most Thais in this conflict are the military?

Since you brought it up, ... just look at the time scales of the last yellow protests, what they as a group did, and the reaction of the government - then compare to 2010.

[DM07]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

A vicious crackdown which should never had happened, it should not have dragged out for as long as it did and you can blame the terrorists and the moron pulling their strings for that.

If the same thing happened to the yellow supporters you reds would be laughing your heads off.

"...you reds..."

Aha!

By the way: I would not be laughing my head of at anyone dead!

Projection much?!

[rubl]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

... and the ones responsible for creating the situation are either in self-exile or were thanked with a party-list MP seat. Maybe that also shouldn't be ignored even if five years have passed.

[rubl]

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

A vicious crackdown which should never had happened, it should not have dragged out for as long as it did and you can blame the terrorists and the moron pulling their strings for that.

If the same thing happened to the yellow supporters you reds would be laughing your heads off.

no you cannot blame the red shirts for the crackdown, nor for the deaths - especially the last 6 days when nearly 60 died

and how many times do you need to read the balanced replies of people who disagree with the Junta and the military / elite axis to understand that we despise the violence from both sides, ... and how many times do you need to read that the group killing the most Thais in this conflict are the military?

Since you brought it up, ... just look at the time scales of the last yellow protests, what they as a group did, and the reaction of the government - then compare to 2010.

You cannot blame those "peaceful protesters, not terrorists". They knew nothing, they never ever saw those Men-in-Black walking around, they never ever saw who dropped grenades, they always slept soundly at night when cowards started to shoot at non-red-shirts.

How dare some blame those lovable red-shirts.

[lovetotravel]

I don’t believe for a moment that the author of the article had reconciliation on the mind when writing it and was more inclined to put fuel into the remnants to get the fire started again.

Anybody speaking of armed protesters and referring to a demonstration that is supposed to be based on rules, which are well established and governed by laws in democracies, hasn’t a glimpse what the roots of the problems are in Thailand. That also applies to the events that have been broadcasted worldwide when a different group of protestors invaded the main police station in Bangkok only this time we had a government that subscribed to a different political colour.

As long as we in Thailand don’t understand what democracy actually means we don’t deserve it! We will repeat the errors and mistakes of our past and feel justified to use violence to bring down a government that hasn’t got our vote.

Our problem is an educational one and the fact that we don’t talk about the wrongs we committed in the past, and that includes all governments I have watched for over 20 years from abroad and the ones I had to live under when returning to Thailand. Taking our political parties and the so called well educated elite we notice that they all talk about democracy but for each of them the meaning is obscured by their inability to consider compromise, which is essential in a democracy.

Before Thailand can achieve democracy it will have to change her educational system and start teaching children how democracies function. That violence to express dissent is not a democratic expression but the first step on the road to anarchy.

I believe that your view of Thai democracy and democracy in general is precisely upside down.

Thai democracy has never been a problem of educating the people but a problem of elites and generals.

(I do agree about the issue of political compromise but that is not fundamental IMO to the reason that democracy hasn't survived in Thailand...)

The general population here sure doesn't know what democracy is all about. They are taught about it by the elites (from both parties). I doubt the general population in many Western nations fully understand it either.

I have to disagree with the foundation of your statement.

When it comes to how much people understand about the details of their own systems, then every country has many people - educated and not - who don't understand how their own systems work.

But as for understanding democracy ... I haven't met a single (non-elite) Thai who has a problem understanding democracy.

Ask them what the Pillars of Democracy are. This is a trick question. I doubt one could give them all to you. Try it yourself before looking it up on Google.

[jayboy]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Yeah...because a fracking building really weighs out some human lives!

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

... and the ones responsible for creating the situation are either in self-exile or were thanked with a party-list MP seat. Maybe that also shouldn't be ignored even if five years have passed.

I suppose there were people like you at the time of the Warsaw Rising or the American Revolution or indeed the Dutch rising against their Spanish masters accusing the downtrodden of having " created the situation."

[tbthailand]

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

... and the ones responsible for creating the situation are either in self-exile or were thanked with a party-list MP seat. Maybe that also shouldn't be ignored even if five years have passed.

I suppose there were people like you at the time of the Warsaw Rising or the American Revolution or indeed the Dutch rising against their Spanish masters accusing the downtrodden of having " created the situation."

thanks - that is a rather concise way to put comments from the fascist dutch uncle into perspective....

[djjamie]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Exaggerating a little aren't we??

A shopping mall and a half was burned down!!

A shame they didn't manage to burn all Bangkok down. Maybe that would have woken up the feudal masters and made them realize that, their time is well and truly over.

Do not condone violence, but can understand that people can reach their breaking point after time and again having seen their constitutionally cast votes being voided by the army and/or the judiciary.

BTW.........Think for a moment, the system some posters here are supporting, is the very same system, that allowed the young Na Ayudhya to get away with killing nine people with only a slap on her wrist.

All about connecting the dots........................

I do not condone violence, but

I do not like the burning down of buildings by terrorists, but

I do not support terrorism, but

I do not agree with the murder of kids, but

I do not think it is right for the government to threaten violence on their own supporters, but

There is always a but with you guys.

It again shows that the slide to radical fundamentalism is slow yet pronounced.

One day it will be I killed him because of his political views, but...

There is no excuse for what the red shirts did. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

You exemplify why reform is needed and for that I thank you my dear friend.

Without BUT in the English language you would be classified as a psychotic. What a handy word for the UDD supporters to have.

Edited May 16, 2015 by djjamie

[tbthailand]

I believe that your view of Thai democracy and democracy in general is precisely upside down.

Thai democracy has never been a problem of educating the people but a problem of elites and generals.

(I do agree about the issue of political compromise but that is not fundamental IMO to the reason that democracy hasn't survived in Thailand...)

The general population here sure doesn't know what democracy is all about. They are taught about it by the elites (from both parties). I doubt the general population in many Western nations fully understand it either.

I have to disagree with the foundation of your statement.

When it comes to how much people understand about the details of their own systems, then every country has many people - educated and not - who don't understand how their own systems work.

But as for understanding democracy ... I haven't met a single (non-elite) Thai who has a problem understanding democracy.

Ask them what the Pillars of Democracy are. This is a trick question. I doubt one could give them all to you. Try it yourself before looking it up on Google.

not to stray from the topic, but if you google "pillars of democracy" then you will see that no one can agree on what they are, much less how many of them there are....

[djjamie]

The general population here sure doesn't know what democracy is all about. They are taught about it by the elites (from both parties). I doubt the general population in many Western nations fully understand it either.

I have to disagree with the foundation of your statement.

When it comes to how much people understand about the details of their own systems, then every country has many people - educated and not - who don't understand how their own systems work.

But as for understanding democracy ... I haven't met a single (non-elite) Thai who has a problem understanding democracy.

Ask them what the Pillars of Democracy are. This is a trick question. I doubt one could give them all to you. Try it yourself before looking it up on Google.

not to stray from the topic, but if you google "pillars of democracy" then you will see that no one can agree on what they are, much less how many of them there are....

Lets pretend there were 4. That would make the PTP 1/4 democratic while the Junta would be 3/4 democratic and the DEMS 4/4 democratic.

Back on topic. If the wounds from the red terrorist uprising is still fresh on their minds I wonder how the families of 680 injured and 25 dead at the hands of those same terrorists feel today and how long their wounds will take to heal?

[lovetotravel]

Ask them what the Pillars of Democracy are. This is a trick question. I doubt one could give them all to you. Try it yourself before looking it up on Google.

not to stray from the topic, but if you google "pillars of democracy" then you will see that no one can agree on what they are, much less how many of them there are....

There are 4 basic pillars of democracy. That is standard. Some quote 3, some 11, but it includes the 4. Did you at least get 4? Here they are:

http://www.mrberrigan.com/SocialStudies/PillarsDemocracy.html

The big one that's always missed here is Equality. Well, that and freedom of speech. Rival political parties don't want equality. They want it all for themselves. That's the main problem with the political mess here. It's all about me.

Right on topic.

[lovetotravel]

Just read this. Wow! Even the PM gets it! Now the rest of the country needs to understand this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/825780-democracy-is-more-than-polls/

"Over the past one year, the government and myself often hear likewise questions: When Thailand will be democratic and when the general election will be held? This question is based on the belief that the two things are cause and effect of one another. As if when there is an election, then that is democracy," he said.

True democracy, he said, was actually based on four principles: justice, equality, freedom and representation. "If a government cannot rule under these four principles, it can't be regarded as ruling with democracy. If there is only an election and lack other three principles, we are still far from democracy.

Democracy is not JUST about elections.

[tbthailand]

Just read this. Wow! Even the PM gets it! Now the rest of the country needs to understand this.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/825780-democracy-is-more-than-polls/

"Over the past one year, the government and myself often hear likewise questions: When Thailand will be democratic and when the general election will be held? This question is based on the belief that the two things are cause and effect of one another. As if when there is an election, then that is democracy," he said.

True democracy, he said, was actually based on four principles: justice, equality, freedom and representation. "If a government cannot rule under these four principles, it can't be regarded as ruling with democracy. If there is only an election and lack other three principles, we are still far from democracy.

Democracy is not JUST about elections.

the leader of the 'intervention' "gets it"?

[tbthailand]

Ask them what the Pillars of Democracy are. This is a trick question. I doubt one could give them all to you. Try it yourself before looking it up on Google.

not to stray from the topic, but if you google "pillars of democracy" then you will see that no one can agree on what they are, much less how many of them there are....

There are 4 basic pillars of democracy. That is standard. Some quote 3, some 11, but it includes the 4. Did you at least get 4? Here they are:

http://www.mrberrigan.com/SocialStudies/PillarsDemocracy.html

The big one that's always missed here is Equality. Well, that and freedom of speech. Rival political parties don't want equality. They want it all for themselves. That's the main problem with the political mess here. It's all about me.

Right on topic.

Sure, I found your reference... I also found other references which were 3, or 4 - but different - or 7 or eleven, ...

who really cares about an artificial construction related to some one's idea about democracy when in fact, democracy is simply a system for self-governance ... and that system is a system which the military in Thailand (along with their elite allies) constantly undermine in Thailand?

Also, note which side is constantly harping on 'democracy is more than elections'... It's not the folks who support, but rather the groups which undermine democracy... so why would anyone listen to their stupid rantings. They don't give a hoot about democracy, much less elections.

[lovetotravel]

Agreed. The PTP is constantly harping on about elections being the basis for democracy. As you state, it's so much more than that. But many do listen to speeches and buy off on this. Unfortunately.

[NongKhaiKid]

Let's do the Thai two step. PTP and the reds are waiting to get back into power and extract revenge with the military sitting in the wings watching and then lo and behold another coup. Repeat at various intervals of your choice. Thai soaps in real life.

[Stradavarius37]

Hope it serves as a daily reminder that when you ignore orders from authorities, burn building, burn tires, loot, launch grenades at overpasses, use babies as human shields, set up gas trucks as shields next to apartment buildings, invade meetings of world leaders, attack PM vehicles with weapons - then you are going to be dispersed with prejudice - I hope you never ever forget...

Edited May 17, 2015 by Stradavarius37

[Stradavarius37]

Perhaps these relatives should first come to Bangkok and apologize for burning Bangkok.

Exaggerating a little aren't we??

A shopping mall and a half was burned down!!

A shame they didn't manage to burn all Bangkok down. Maybe that would have woken up the feudal masters and made them realize that, their time is well and truly over.

Do not condone violence, but can understand that people can reach their breaking point after time and again having seen their constitutionally cast votes being voided by the army and/or the judiciary.

BTW.........Think for a moment, the system some posters here are supporting, is the very same system, that allowed the young Na Ayudhya to get away with killing nine people with only a slap on her wrist.

All about connecting the dots........................

I do not condone violence, but

I do not like the burning down of buildings by terrorists, but

I do not support terrorism, but

I do not agree with the murder of kids, but

I do not think it is right for the government to threaten violence on their own supporters, but

There is always a but with you guys.

It again shows that the slide to radical fundamentalism is slow yet pronounced.

One day it will be I killed him because of his political views, but...

There is no excuse for what the red shirts did. None. Zero. Zilch. Nada.

You exemplify why reform is needed and for that I thank you my dear friend.

Without BUT in the English language you would be classified as a psychotic. What a handy word for the UDD supporters to have.

Most spot on post on this issue in a long while....

[waitforusalso]

Hope it serves as a daily reminder that when you ignore orders from authorities, burn building, burn tires, loot, launch grenades at overpasses, use babies as human shields, set up gas trucks as shields next to apartment buildings, invade meetings of world leaders, attack PM vehicles with weapons - then you are going to be dispersed with prejudice - I hope you never ever forget...

Yes, as the generals have taught them, they must sit quietly & not complain as successive unelected leaders are forced upon them.

73, 92, 2010.....

Edited May 17, 2015 by waitforusalso

[rubl]

It's hard to ignore the idiots.

everytime an article about the killings in 2010 comes out, a stream of inane, insensitive stupid hyperbole spews out onto the forum

But maybe they shouldn't be ignored. 2010 was a vicious crackdown and as one academic pointed out, the ones responsible now rule the country.

... and the ones responsible for creating the situation are either in self-exile or were thanked with a party-list MP seat. Maybe that also shouldn't be ignored even if five years have passed.

I suppose there were people like you at the time of the Warsaw Rising or the American Revolution or indeed the Dutch rising against their Spanish masters accusing the downtrodden of having " created the situation."

thanks - that is a rather concise way to put comments from the fascist dutch uncle into perspective....

Calling names is only a sign of incompetence, insecurity.

Showcasing one side, but totally ignoring the other side doesn't make a balance view. So, "Maybe that also shouldn't be ignored even if five years have passed."

As for the jaykids examples, remind me who was the learned gentleman from Cambridge or Oxford who managed to justify the crackdown of the Hungarian Uprising as necessary for Peoples Democratic Labourers Paradise ?