SURVEY: Should Foreigners be Allowed to own Property?

[Keesters]

If the Thai people through its laws consider it wrong for non-Thais to own land in Thailand the same, wrongness, should be applied to Thai people owning land outside Thailand. Anything other than same same rules is hypocritical. Foreign countries should not forbid Thais from owning land in their countries that is for the Thai government to do. The law as it stands is very two-faced showing the Thai preference of looking after number one...me...me...me and ignore everybody else.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Keesters

[Guest]

Total nonsense. I will try to explain in ways that even you may understand.

Farangs are not forbidden from investing in Thailand, they can purchase land and real estate, buy stocks and shares, own businesses and in fact the BOI encourages foreign investment into the country, only they insist that foreign investors are required to fit a certain criteria and invest a substantial amount that sways the benefits in favour of the Thai people.

Thailand is not interested in farangs of little wealth buying and solely owning real estate at bargain prices (if compared to the equivalent in their home countries) that are of no benefit to the country whatsoever. Permitting farangs to freely own land and real estate in Thailand would be a disaster for the country. It would encourage land and property speculators, dodgy company ownerships, land wars, marriages of convenience and group buying in order to get into the property markets and the mass buying of land in the poorer regions that would have the affect of increasing land prices substantially whereas the working class Thais would not be able to compete. Then it would involve the purchasing of agricultural lands and evolving into the ownerships of whole land and housing developments, the list goes on and on.

That is the dumbest thing I've ever read. You want the poor land owning thais to stay poor because if their property rises in value. then other much poorer thais - who currently can't afford to buy land even at these low prices - won't be able to buy it a higher prices. (In case you don't comprehend how numbers work, if I can't afford to buy something costing $1million. What would I care if it cost $2million or $5million? It's still not afforrdable no matter how much more expensive it's priced at.)

In fact, the higher land prices would put more money into the pockets of thai people who could use that to start businesses that employ the poor landless thais. But this is part of the conspiracy of the ruling class, to keep the majority of the population poor. First step is to make them afraid, use the foreigners as scapegoats. Then the elite can rely on their indentured servitude.

But I don't really understand the rantings of the paranoid TV posters. Foreigners already are allowed to buy 1 rai of thai land under ministerial approval with the condition that they invest at least 40 million baht in Thailand.

If this is "the dumbest thing you have ever heard" .. you have led a charmed life.

I could argue the scale of “dumb” .. Currently it is pointing your way.

To reply to this well written and sound argument with your education on “how numbers work” is really revealing.

It shows that you do not understand the basic laws of supply and demand, and have forgotten that the quantity supplied at the current value, reflecting Thai ownership without Foreigners competing for similar goods, DOES keep land ownership within reach of many Thais. Your “solution” simply eliminates more Thais from the equation by every additional of inflated value (for the benefit of NON Thai People)

Please remember that the Thai owner is question is the average Thai, single plot owner, single dwelling owner, single farm owner … not a BKK Hi So speculator on off plan condos.

The most ridiculous premise here (more money in the pocket) is that a person can simultaneously enjoy the appreciation in value of real estate, and still OWN IT. (Yes, borrowing against it is a possibility, but not the core of your thesis.)

So, when the average Thai has “hit your jackpot” and sold their land, where, pray tell .. shall they live?

Wait for it: They can, according to the laws of supply and demand, REPLACE that parcel by paying more for it? How much more? A percentage very much in line with their “Gain” you claim.

In short, it is .. a wash. They still own the same type of land, and for some reason, (to make foreign speculators rich) ... have sold ... then repurchased ... similar assets.

For someone getting up on their pony and preaching to the unwashed, you have a bit of”book learning” to do.

Artificial inflation of assets must, by the law of supply and demand, reduce the number of buyers in proportion to price.

Let me use your example and see if you get it.

If the quantity of “X” land goes up in price from 1,000,000 per unit to 1,500,000 per unit .. ALL BUYERS below that new higher price are EXCLUDED. So you probably grasp the "American Dream" .. work hard, save money, buy property, have a family, pass down assets, rinse and repeat. news for you .. America did not patent that "dream" .. it is the dream of the working class on this planet. Thailand included. Pumping up property values to create a gambling den for foreigners fails the first and only question any Thai leader needs to ask and answer.

"Is it good for Thailand, and Thai people?" The answer here is a clear "No, not in any way."

Really. Please go back and read your art history books, or whatever you majored in .. you simply do not grasp even the most basic principles of markets, price, supply, demand, and a SHIFT in a curve.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Guest

[lostoday]

If this is "the dumbest thing you have ever heard" .. you have led a charmed life.

I could argue the scale of “dumb” .. Currently it is pointing your way.

To reply to this well written and sound argument with your education on “how numbers work” is really revealing.

It shows that you do not understand the basic laws of supply and demand, and have forgotten that the quantity supplied at the current value, reflecting Thai ownership without Foreigners competing for similar goods, DOES keep land ownership within reach of many Thais. Your “solution” simply eliminates more Thais from the equation by every additional of inflated value (for the benefit of NON Thai People)

Please remember that the Thai owner is question is the average Thai, single plot owner, single dwelling owner, single farm owner … not a BKK Hi So speculator on off plan condos.

The most ridiculous premise here (more money in the pocket) is that a person can simultaneously enjoy the appreciation in value of real estate, and still OWN IT. (Yes, borrowing against it is a possibility, but not the core of your thesis.)

So, when the average Thai has “hit your jackpot” and sold their land, where, pray tell .. shall they live?

Wait for it: They can, according to the laws of supply and demand, REPLACE that parcel by paying more for it? How much more? A percentage very much in line with their “Gain” you claim.

In short, it is .. a wash. They still own the same type of land, and for some reason, (to make foreign speculators rich) ... have sold ... then repurchased ... similar assets.

For someone getting up on their pony and preaching to the unwashed, you have a bit of”book learning” to do.

Artificial inflation of assets must, by the law of supply and demand, reduce the number of buyers in proportion to price.

Let me use your example and see if you get it.

If the quantity of “X” land goes up in price from 1,000,000 per unit to 1,500,000 per unit .. ALL BUYERS below that new higher price are EXCLUDED. So you probably grasp the "American Dream" .. work hard, save money, buy property, have a family, pass down assets, rinse and repeat. news for you .. America did not patent that "dream" .. it is the dream of the working class on this planet. Thailand included. Pumping up property values to create a gambling den for foreigners fails the first and only question any Thai leader needs to ask and answer.

"Is it good for Thailand, and Thai people?" The answer here is a clear "No, not in any way."

Really. Please go back and read your art history books, or whatever you majored in .. you simply do not grasp even the most basic principles of markets, price, supply, demand, and a SHIFT in a curve.

You obviously know that you are talking about and I'm trying to understand it.

If me and a bunch of my friends (Farang) want to get together and buy a shopping mall in Thailand including the land can we do that?

I can't afford to buy the whole thing but I could afford to buy (with my friends) a substantial part of it - in the millions of dollars worth of Thai land - can I do that?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/01/13/thailand-property-reit-idUSL3N0US20B20150113

Edited May 18, 2015 by lostoday

[elgordo38]

If Thai's are allowed to own real estate in any foreign country then foreigners from that country should be allowed to own property here in Thailand.

This will never happen because Thai's fear that foreigners want to own & control their Country.

10% of the people mostly rich and politico's own 90% of the property here so why couldn't farang's own a few rai and build a house. Soon the rich will control it all so much for poor Thai's owning anything. We are slowing evolving into modern day slavery. Its amazing to see history repeat itself. Our new masta's are busy buying up the whole world so learn some humility and getting down on one knee. We will regress into a modern Feudal system with private armies for the rich and the rest of us will have to take our chances. I am glad I will be pushing up daisies by then but I really feel sorry for my young Thai g/f she will witness unspeakable atrocities.

[sawadee1947]

do it as in VIETNAM....for 100 years

[impulse]

However the Thais are still in the dark ages on the subject, thinking foreigners will own their country.

60 million Thais.

1,500 million folks across the border looking for a way to escape the pollution, possibly the next famine when their desertification project is complete, maybe the radiation from Fukushima, and the fricking cold weather (never mind a place to hide ill gotten gains).

Maybe they've got it right, and our politicos have been selling our countries out from under us?

[catweazle]

It's a senseless and fruitless discussion, and it is going on for decades! Thais will never allow foreigners to own land, full stop! As a foreigner living and working in Thailand, one has to accept the fact that we are allowed the status of a temporary visitor only who has no or very little rights but plenty of obligations. Anyone who can't hack it is better off in their home country.

[catweazle]

However the Thais are still in the dark ages on the subject, thinking foreigners will own their country.

60 million Thais.

1,500 million folks across the border looking for a way to escape the pollution, possibly the next famine when their desertification project is complete, maybe the radiation from Fukushima, and the fricking cold weather (never mind a place to hide ill gotten gains).

Maybe they've got it right, and our politicos have been selling our countries out from under us?

And spot on you are, impulse! Well put!

[sawati]

Gentlemen, I would ask you to consider the reasoning behind a lot of this.

Thailand is a top down society. Unless the top own it all then there can be no real power. Once foreigners are allowed to start owning then it is understood that they will bring other laws with them in regards to ultimate ownership. This is not to be allowed under any circumstances.

Also, the current situation allows locals (read women) a way to own their own place when they would never be able to ordinarily do it.

Why do you always talk about owning in Thailand when you should know that you are not wanted. here.

If it were not for the money we spend,,,we should be rohinyas...

[Jim walker]

I did own a property in Thailand up until last month when I sold it, it was a 2 bedroomed condo and was wholly owned by me I had my title deeds and house book this was enough for me it was part of the % share that could be owned by an alien, I did consider a house for a time but it was all just to much of a problem be it owned by a company or on a long term lease back contract I have several properties at home in the UK so the simplest solution for me and my Mrs was I bought my wife a house and we used them both but a time comes in life when you decide to move on and I think the time is now. So I sold my Pattaya weekend condo

[lostoday]

It's a senseless and fruitless discussion, and it is going on for decades! Thais will never allow foreigners to own land, full stop! As a foreigner living and working in Thailand, one has to accept the fact that we are allowed the status of a temporary visitor only who has no or very little rights but plenty of obligations. Anyone who can't hack it is better off in their home country.

http://www.reuters.c...N0US20B20150113

[sweatalot]

I'm happy with my crumbling old 1970s condo, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

I understand and respect Thai opinions and traditions on foreign ownership of Thai land and houses. I think that if there were to be a change, it should be for foreigners to own a single house and a small lot, for personal use only. I would not support an unregulated foreigner land-grab fest, which would obviously only make life even harder for Thais on modest incomes.

... and for not so well to do expats as well

Edited May 18, 2015 by sweatalot

[lostoday]

However the Thais are still in the dark ages on the subject, thinking foreigners will own their country.

60 million Thais.

1,500 million folks across the border looking for a way to escape the pollution, possibly the next famine when their desertification project is complete, maybe the radiation from Fukushima, and the fricking cold weather (never mind a place to hide ill gotten gains).

Maybe they've got it right, and our politicos have been selling our countries out from under us?

And spot on you are, impulse! Well put!

How right you are. Them foreigners are putting the land into suitcases and carrying it off. Next they will be wanting to buy our North Sea Oil or even worse our women folk.

[lostoday]

I'm happy with my crumbling old 1970s condo, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

I understand and respect Thai opinions and traditions on foreign ownership of Thai land and houses. I think that if there were to be a change, it should be for foreigners to own a single house and a small lot, for personal use only. I would not support an unregulated foreigner land-grab fest, which would obviously only make life even harder for Thais on modest incomes.

... and for not so well to do expats as well

You pick the place in Thailand and I ( a Farang) can go in and buy it, today. It's called a Real Estate investment trust.

[Berkshire]

will never happen

the rich elite in this country, does not like sharing

end of story

Silly argument. If foreigners could purchase land, the "rich elite" would have the most to gain.

[TheMacMan]

It would make perfect sense (and add security for those that wish to live and invest in Thailand) to be allowed their own house and land.... but keep it reasonable, maybe impose a cap on the area of land, or limit ownership to one or two houses only....

Farang that live here are usually the kind of people that Thailand benefits from.... they bring in money, buy property, employ gardeners, maids, spend their cash and retirements in the local economy.... how is that a bad thing?

Many have extended families in the form of a Thai wife or husband, they have Thai kids and pay for schooling.... how is that a bad thing?

Families, retirees, and those looking to settle down in Thailand SHOULD be able to at least buy their own residential home (and the land under it) for their own (and their families) security....

NO, not to buy-up huge areas or an ever expanding portfolio of properties and land.... but one personal (maybe 2) property for their own security and use..... That's fair! and reasonable!

[lostoday]

It would make perfect sense (and add security for those that wish to live and invest in Thailand) to be allowed their own house and land.... but keep it reasonable, maybe impose a cap on the area of land, or limit ownership to one or two houses only....

Farang that live here are usually the kind of people that Thailand benefits from.... they bring in money, buy property, employ gardeners, maids, spend their cash and retirements in the local economy.... how is that a bad thing?

Many have extended families in the form of a Thai wife or husband, they have Thai kids and pay for schooling.... how is that a bad thing?

Families, retirees, and those looking to settle down in Thailand SHOULD be able to at least buy their own residential home (and the land under it) for their own (and their families) security....

NO, not to buy-up huge areas or an ever expanding portfolio of properties and land.... but one personal (maybe 2) property for their own security and use..... That's fair! and reasonable!

A cap right. Now the amount a foreigner can own is a portion of 500 million. I don't know the percent, some one else can look that up.

[Alwyn]

I saw what foreign investment did to property prices in Spain during the 80's. It basically made ownership impossible for most locals because of the price hikes, in fact the government stepped in and built homes with mortgages only for Spaniards with the VPO programme. I've also seen the similar in the UK in the 60's when Arabs were buying up London. In fact it's happened again now in London, there is a massive % of building unoccupied that are owned by foreign investors. So, yes to owning a place to live, maybe if married to a local but a big fat no, to investment properties for foreigners

[mikeinbangkok]

My wife owns 3 investment properties in Australia 100% and not 49% (land and buildings) but I am forbidden from investing in Thailand. There should be laws that if a farang is banned in Thailand then Thais should be banned overseas. Won't happen tho as other countries welcome foreign investment no matter how small.

Let me correct this... A non-citizen or a non-resident of Australia can not own landed property in Australia, similar to Thailand. A non-citizen or a non-resident of Australia can only purchase designated, new buildings, such as apartments ( In Thailand, Condominiums). There are stringent laws that prevent foreigners buying houses etc., Most recently a Chinese business magnate was forced to sell off his 40million Aus dollar property in Sydney, as he was found to have breached the law.

[lostoday]

I saw what foreign investment did to property prices in Spain during the 80's. It basically made ownership impossible for most locals because of the price hikes, in fact the government stepped in and built homes with mortgages only for Spaniards with the VPO programme. I've also seen the similar in the UK in the 60's when Arabs were buying up London. In fact it's happened again now in London, there is a massive % of building unoccupied that are owned by foreign investors. So, yes to owning a place to live, maybe if married to a local but a big fat no, to investment properties for foreigners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

If you were correct there would be a correlation between home ownership percent and prohibition against foreign ownership. Is there? No.

[Jonmarleesco]

Given the fact that Thais can buy, without restriction, in, for example, the UK - an area less than half the size of Thailand - the answer should be obvious. But whenever this anomaly is raised, many (nationalistic) Thais choose to close their ears, and their minds, to it.

Perhaps it's time other countries responded in kind.

[harleyclarkey]

Thais freak at the thought of a foreigner owning any scrap of land so why not then allow a simple long term lease.

I suggest 99 years at the very least and preferably longer.

The lease has to be cast iron and stamped not only by the land office but also by the embassy or consul of that national.

[Guest]

I'm happy with my crumbling old 1970s condo, so I don't really have a horse in this race.

I understand and respect Thai opinions and traditions on foreign ownership of Thai land and houses. I think that if there were to be a change, it should be for foreigners to own a single house and a small lot, for personal use only. I would not support an unregulated foreigner land-grab fest, which would obviously only make life even harder for Thais on modest incomes.

... and for not so well to do expats as well

You pick the place in Thailand and I ( a Farang) can go in and buy it, today. It's called a Real Estate investment trust.

Dear Lost,

This is the fourth posting you have made using a REIT as an example of how you " ... pick the place in Thailand and I ( a Farang) can go in and buy it, today."

I think you had better do a bit of homework, find out what a REIT is, how it operates .. etc.

You are so far off base at this point, really, it could take pages to get you to the point where you really understood it.

Perhaps you could just take a leap of faith for now and accept "No, that is not how it is" for a quick answer.

You have a computer, Google "REIT" You will learn that like a stock, you are .. (if you are literal to an extreme) .. a fractional owner. But before you decide to buy shares of Intel and sleep in the lobby, or sell some of the furniture ... you need to understand what infinitesimally minute percentage you own, and what those rights of ownership are (HINT: ---- > ZERO)

No, you CAN NOT "pick a place and buy it today." (If by "place" .. you mean LAND)

Lastly, you do understand Foreigners can own homes and condo's etc ??? .. the issue here is the land it sits on. That , they may not own, unless they fulfill very special requirements .. and even then, they can not acquire a meaningful amount.

LAND is the topic today, not buildings. Even big buildings.

Word of the day ... L A N D

Edited May 18, 2015 by Guest

[impulse]

I saw what foreign investment did to property prices in Spain during the 80's. It basically made ownership impossible for most locals because of the price hikes, in fact the government stepped in and built homes with mortgages only for Spaniards with the VPO programme. I've also seen the similar in the UK in the 60's when Arabs were buying up London. In fact it's happened again now in London, there is a massive % of building unoccupied that are owned by foreign investors. So, yes to owning a place to live, maybe if married to a local but a big fat no, to investment properties for foreigners

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ownership_rate

If you were correct there would be a correlation between home ownership percent and prohibition against foreign ownership. Is there? No.

Not necessarily. The correlation may be the percentage of income spent on housing, or the percentage of Spaniards that can't afford dental care because their mortgage eats up too much of their income, or the divorce rate, or rates of depression as couples get more stressed about having no discretionary income because it's all going to their mortgage, or the default rate on mortgage or credit card loans, or the suicide rate, or the lower number of new small businesses started because working capital is being hoovered up into mortgages, or college entry statistics because families can't afford housing and education.

[lostoday]

Dear Lost,

This is the fourth posting you have made using a REIT as an example of how you " ... pick the place in Thailand and I ( a Farang) can go in and buy it, today."

I think you had better do a bit of homework, find out what a REIT is, how it operates .. etc.

You are so far off base at this point, really, it could take pages to get you to the point where you really understood it.

Perhaps you could just take a leap of faith for now and accept "No, that is not how it is" for a quick answer.

You have a computer, Google "REIT" You will learn that like a stock, you are .. (if you are literal to an extreme) .. a fractional owner. But before you decide to buy shares of Intel and sleep in the lobby, or sell some of the furniture ... you need to understand what infinitesimally minute percentage you own, and what those rights of ownership are (HINT: ---- > ZERO)

No, you CAN NOT "pick a place and buy it today." (If by "place" .. you mean LAND)

Lastly, you do understand Foreigners can own homes and condo's etc ??? .. the issue here is the land it sits on. That , they may not own, unless they fulfill very special requirements .. and even then, they can not acquire a meaningful amount.

LAND is the topic today, not buildings. Even big buildings.

Word of the day ... L A N D

The argument of all the ill informed here is that foreigners buying land will raise the value of the land - cause land inflationary prices.

A Real Estate investment trust buys land and buildings and a foreigner can own a percent of that trust maybe the majority (i'm not sure). Still the argument that if a foreigner can own land the price of land will go up is nonsense because a foreigner can own land by way of REIT.

A foreigner can own land if he becomes a Thai Citizen ( I think). A foreigner can own land if he has Chinese Thai family (we shouldn't go there but who do you think owns all those new hotels in Pattaya?)

So let me tell you the real story. The Chinese are buying Thailand because they have to get their money out of China (I hope this is not news to you).

It makes very little difference if a few Americans, Brits or Aussies buy some Thai land in the general scope of Thailand (New China) stuff.

Did you ever buy a house in Thailand? You give the bank cash. I was amazed the first time I did it. But you can try it too. You actually put the money in a bag and take it to the bank.

[Guest]

Given the fact that Thais can buy, without restriction, in, for example, the UK - an area less than half the size of Thailand - the answer should be obvious. But whenever this anomaly is raised, many (nationalistic) Thais choose to close their ears, and their minds, to it.

Perhaps it's time other countries responded in kind.

Question: In the UK, do land owners pay taxes?

If "yes" , you have a portion of your answer. (Please tell me you understand why that matters)

Since then , all things are not equal, and therefore not a straight line comparison.

And last time I checked, there seems to be a fair amount of gnashing of the teeth in the UK about "damn foreigners taking over everything"

Perhaps Thailand got it right ?

[wowfactor10]

The Thai property laws are unfair and so its creates:

Negative sentiment from foreigners towards Thai government and Thai people.

It leads to countless land scams against foreigners who in the end always loose their investment to a Thai.

It leads that foreigners packing up their bags and moving elsewhere.

It has lead to a dead housing market for Thailand.(So no revenues for Thai landoffices)

If you make a rule max two rai pro foreigner then u rule out speculation and no one can or will buy up the country....(its not so great anyway)

But they wont do it farang can buy land and put the land in the name of some Thai bar girl...Okay good bye then

[micmichd]

What's this about the Chinese now?

Many ethnic Chinese are in fact Thai nationals (eg from Bangkok), mostly born in Thailand, some of them may have never been in China. Please don't confuse.

Edited May 18, 2015 by micmichd

[lostoday]

What's this about the Chinese now?

Many ethnic Chinese are in fact Thai nationals, some of them may have never been in China. Please don't confuse.

Yes. I'm sure you know that the informal Chinese banking system extends to Thailand and beyond and how it works. No need to go into it here but substantial amounts of money are available to invest in or loan out.

The price of land in Thailand would not change one yen (if foreign ownership of homes or small land holdings allowed legally) as the foreign ownership is already a fact and figured in the price today.

Edited May 18, 2015 by lostoday

[Janner1]

If every landowner in Thailand was given the right to sell one rai of land to foreigners who could own it outright, the foreigner would have security on his / her investment and the Thais farmers in particular would have a large amount of money to invest in the farm. Money that they would under normal circumstances never be able to obtain and investment that can not presently take place.

Imagine for one minute the benefits to the economy from better farm efficiency higher production from money spent on quality organic fertilisers, jointly used machinery to ease the workload and improve the land enabling farmers to grow products that today they can not grow because the land can not support it and which now has to be imported from surrounding countries with better land management policies.

All of this could be tightly controlled by a wholly responsible administrative department properly monitored by the highest echelons of Thai government, perhaps overseen by his highness the King, which would give this idea the royal seal of approval and make it fully acceptable by Thai people because corruption would be impossible,just two top leaders would be involved in this and answerable to his highness.

Controls would be placed upon farmers / landowners to ensure that sale proceeds are properly invested in the farms and other businesses with proper government financial investment guidance and not just spent willy nilly.

Controls put in place to ensure that the foreigner can only buy one rai of land in one chosen area Of Thailand,and as he would be properly registered with a tax number any attempt to buy more would be flashed up and the admin department can stop the sale.

Each purchaser would be required to develope the land for one house for himself in which he will have to live for 5 years minimum before selling on,or low rise low price multiple housing for Thai people to buy.

Profits on this type of investment could be kept within reasonable levels by tax laws.

Everyone would benefit from this because landowners will have money to invest, housing problems will be reduced,Thai people will be able to buy homes at reasonable prices and foreigners will be able to obtain security on the money they invest

IT ONLY TAKES A LITTLE WILL and PERHAPS a GENERAL/ PRIMEMINISTER who is REALLY interested in bringing happiness back to Thailand

Ps

General Prawut, Sir if you ever get to read this rough outline of a way forward for Thai people YOU have the power to satisfy everyone, Do you have the WILL to do it?