Thai-Japanese rail link to Chiang Mai follows China model

[webfact]

EXCLUSIVE INTERVIEW
Thai-Japanese rail link to Chiang Mai follows China model
SASITHORN ONGDEE
THE NATION



CABINET TO CONSIDER AGREEMENT FOR HIGH-SPEED NETWORK BEFORE SIGNING MOC

BANGKOK: -- THE CABINET is expected to consider the draft of an agreement on the Thai-Japanese high-speed railway tomorrow ahead of the signing of a memorandum of cooperation on the Bangkok-Chiang Mai route in Tokyo next week.

The 715-kilometre Bangkok-Chiang Mai line is scheduled to open in 2019, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong told Nation Multimedia Group last week.

The railroad is part of Thailand's strategic transport connectivity plan, linking the mass transit systems of big cities to small towns and neighbouring countries.

The Thai government is also cooperating with China on the development of the Bt400-billion Bangkok-Nong Khai route with medium-speed trains running at 160-180 kilometres per hour. The focus of this project is on the linkage of trade and services, and goods transportation in Asean.

The Thai-Japanese railway project, which would run trains at an average speed of 250kmh, would likely adopt the same model as the Thai-Chinese medium-speed railway project.

The project's value is estimated at Bt400 billion, as it can be traded with a low loan rate.

"Japan said it welcomed the use of the same (cooperation) model as China," Prajin said.

The government-to-government model employed the engineering, procurement and construction system and set up a joint steering committee.

Cooperation is also divided into three parts - civil works, system, and route and maintenance.

The Japanese government led by Shinzo Abe expressed its interest in a few routes during the official visit of Prime Minister Prayut Chan-o-cha to Japan in February. Recently, Japan decided on the Bangkok-Chiang Mai route.

Japan also offered a soft loan. The government hopes that the interest rate will not exceed 1.5 per cent.

As for the Kanchanaburi-Bangkok-Sa Kaeo railway, including a spur from Bangkok to Laem Chabang, which Japan is also interested in, Prajin said no new line would be constructed. Japan would just fill in missing links or make parts of the mostly single existing track into a double track - with a track width of one metre.

This line is under the government's plan to develop double-track railways.

For the Bangkok-Nong Khai route, there was progress after both countries signed a memo of cooperation early this month.

Details on construction costs and a credit line with the loan rate would be known.

"If things are on track, we believe the construction of phases one (Bangkok - Kaeng Khoi) and three (Kaeng Khoi - Nakhon Ratchasima) will start in October and phases two (Kaeng Khoi - Map Ta Phut port) and four (Nakhon Ratchasima - Nong Khai) will start in December.

"Then, the services should be gradually available from December 2017 to March 2018," he said.

The government was negotiating with China to cut the loan rate to 2.25 per cent from 2.5 per cent. This loan would be financed in connection with system work such as rolling stock and the signalling system, which would be based on Chinese technology.

For civil works, 70 per cent would be reserved for Thai construction companies, and a part of the funds would be raised via the public-private partnership scheme and infrastructure fund.

"I'm very okay with China's reaction to what we move up in railway expansion. I feel China would like to carry out its commitment to the project," he said.

Japan and China's long "diplomatic relations" with Thailand and their strong commitment to the railway projects had convinced the government to go with G2G deals instead of open bidding, he said.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Thai-Japanese-rail-link-to-Chiang-Mai-follows-Chin-30260325.html


-- The Nation 2015-05-18

[BSJ]

The Japanese loan is 1.5% interest and the Chinese loan is 2.5% and they are trying to reduce it to 2.25%!!! The government should tell the Chinese to fork off!

[ExPratt]

"The 715-kilometre Bangkok-Chiang Mai line is scheduled to open in 2019, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong told Nation Multimedia Group last week."

Optimistic to say the least

Technically if its 250kph its High Speed but not Bullet train high speed 300+Kph and will be far cheaper. I'll be interested to see what track system they use. For the shinkansen they use a System called J-Slab which is a highly mechanized system and consists of 5 metre precast plate being laid on a protection layer with sheer keys. Id also be interested as 250kph is a bit quick for ballast, not immediately but the vibration caused is substantial , which basically over time destroys the ballast. The J-slab or track slab would be fine but far more expensive

​I had a read up on here , I worked with a German "Doctor" of Railways in Taiwan and he first mentioned this to me

http://www.uic.org/cdrom/2001/wcrr2001/pdf/sessions/2_1_3/009.pdf

[NongKhaiKid]

Years back a US educated lady who was a director of the IN channel when it actually covered news was dead against any thought of nuclear power until corruption was cleaned up..

What she said is relevant to the railway and other projects in that there can be the most demanding of specs on paper but with corruption and the desire for maximum profit corners get cut, substandard materials and workmanship apply and officials can be paid to sign off on the work

[rametindallas]

"The 715-kilometre Bangkok-Chiang Mai line is scheduled to open in 2019, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong told Nation Multimedia Group last week."

Optimistic to say the least

Technically if its 250kph its High Speed but not Bullet train high speed 300+Kph and will be far cheaper. I'll be interested to see what track system they use. For the shinkansen they use a System called J-Slab which is a highly mechanized system and consists of 5 metre precast plate being laid on a protection layer with sheer keys. Id also be interested as 250kph is a bit quick for ballast, not immediately but the vibration caused is substantial , which basically over time destroys the ballast. The J-slab or track slab would be fine but far more expensive

​I had a read up on here , I worked with a German "Doctor" of Railways in Taiwan and he first mentioned this to me

http://www.uic.org/cdrom/2001/wcrr2001/pdf/sessions/2_1_3/009.pdf

At least the plan is to build ALL the way to Chiang Mai instead of just to Phitsanulok as the previous Yingluck Thaksin government planned.

There is no way that train will go 250 Kph in the mountains to Chiang Mai, though. Thailand itself has all the ingredients to make concrete so your suggestion of durable, low-maintenance, concrete slabs, rather than ballast, makes a lot of sense; especially since it will be another hundred years before the next upgrade.

[damian]

Average 250 means it will be built to 300 standards. As for going through mountains they will still average 250 if they tunnel as done on the shinkansen in Taiwan.

[Thai at Heart]

Why could u possibly justify doing business with the Chinese if their rate is that much higher?

[tonbridgebrit]

Is it really a good idea to have some Japanese men in charge of building a railway line in Thailand ? I mean, that film "Bridge on the River Kwai", a lot of people back home don't actually know that the bridge is in Thailand.

[Saan]

Years back a US educated lady who was a director of the IN channel when it actually covered news was dead against any thought of nuclear power until corruption was cleaned up..

What she said is relevant to the railway and other projects in that there can be the most demanding of specs on paper but with corruption and the desire for maximum profit corners get cut, substandard materials and workmanship apply and officials can be paid to sign off on the work

I immediately thought of the same problem.

The Germans came up with a solution when they built the airport terminal in Moscow for the 1980 Olympics. Because of corruption and fear of substandard materials they imported everything, even the sand used in construction. The only local product they used was water.

[gigman]

The Japanese loan is 1.5% interest and the Chinese loan is 2.5% and they are trying to reduce it to 2.25%!!! The government should tell the Chinese to fork off!

Chinese always know how to convenience "partners" that it is good business anyway ...specially for long term relationship..... (it is proven in other countries...)

[masuk]

"The 715-kilometre Bangkok-Chiang Mai line is scheduled to open in 2019, Transport Minister Prajin Juntong told Nation Multimedia Group last week."

Optimistic to say the least

Technically if its 250kph its High Speed but not Bullet train high speed 300+Kph and will be far cheaper. I'll be interested to see what track system they use. For the shinkansen they use a System called J-Slab which is a highly mechanized system and consists of 5 metre precast plate being laid on a protection layer with sheer keys. Id also be interested as 250kph is a bit quick for ballast, not immediately but the vibration caused is substantial , which basically over time destroys the ballast. The J-slab or track slab would be fine but far more expensive

​I had a read up on here , I worked with a German "Doctor" of Railways in Taiwan and he first mentioned this to me

http://www.uic.org/cdrom/2001/wcrr2001/pdf/sessions/2_1_3/009.pdf

At least the plan is to build ALL the way to Chiang Mai instead of just to Phitsanulok as the previous Yingluck Thaksin government planned.

There is no way that train will go 250 Kph in the mountains to Chiang Mai, though. Thailand itself has all the ingredients to make concrete so your suggestion of durable, low-maintenance, concrete slabs, rather than ballast, makes a lot of sense; especially since it will be another hundred years before the next upgrade.

Exactly my thoughts! Imagine doing 200kmh + through the mountains here. There'd be a mighty lot of work tunnelling and blasting to straighten out the line.

Maintenance would be another worry. Look how long Thai Rail hung onto the rotting wooden rail sleepers, and a derailment on a weekly basis.

[quandow]

Why not just threaten to have Japan do BOTH projects to force China to bring down their interest rate, and if China doesn't comply, LET Japan do both? Or is that too simple?

[aslimversgwm]

As a great railway enthusiast I only hope I only hope I live long enough to see these projects completed. Long overdue. 2017 and 2019 completion dates will make me 74 and 76 yo! I better get more exercise! Maybe become a cycling enthusiast too!

[maidee]

no shame, no loss of face

why not take 10% of the army budget and built it themselves

[bangarang]

As a great railway enthusiast I only hope I only hope I live long enough to see these projects completed. Long overdue. 2017 and 2019 completion dates will make me 74 and 76 yo! I better get more exercise! Maybe become a cycling enthusiast too!

Cycling Enthusiast in Thailand? Do you want to die?

[ExPratt]

Average 250 means it will be built to 300 standards. As for going through mountains they will still average 250 if they tunnel as done on the shinkansen in Taiwan.

300 standard will be slab track , so I'll be interested to see what they do. To be fair railways don't run st the speed they say they are built for, quite a lot of China's railways run at 250 and not 300 built to 350. Depends how well they build it. As you say for 250 build to 300 standard but that might only be track tolerances rather than Materials. When you built for that speed you can only take the tolerances so tight . All components have a tolerance and that combined tolerance is a low as you can go with Track tolerance

My guess is they have gone for 250 to save a bit of money and not build slab track , but as I said its only a guess. IMO if they build slab track they might as well run at 300. And ballast at 250 speed is not the best , maybe they glue it

Should be interesting anyway

Edited May 18, 2015 by ExPratt

[winstonc]

As a great railway enthusiast I only hope I only hope I live long enough to see these projects completed. Long overdue. 2017 and 2019 completion dates will make me 74 and 76 yo! I better get more exercise! Maybe become a cycling enthusiast too!

Cycling Enthusiast in Thailand? Do you want to die?

probably a static bike in his bedroom hahahahaha...

[h90]

The Japanese loan is 1.5% interest and the Chinese loan is 2.5% and they are trying to reduce it to 2.25%!!! The government should tell the Chinese to fork off!

But most probable the Japanese is much more expensive.

[swissbie]

Economically I still think that bilding BKK-Rayong and BKK-Padang Besar first would make more sense. All these east-west-north/east lines make me afraid of ever rising tax burdens.

[mango66]

Most important is :

It will be a G2G arrangement, no biddings,

so officials and connected companies - please open your pockets quick !!

[mango66]

The Japanese loan is 1.5% interest and the Chinese loan is 2.5% and they are trying to reduce it to 2.25%!!! The government should tell the Chinese to fork off!

But most probable the Japanese is much more expensive.

how much is no question, its a G2G business !

everything is related on this what Gvts official will agree under table behind closed doors !!

[Thakkar]

Discussion of loan interest rate is pointless unless the repayment schedule, terms and currency of the loan are known.

A rate of 2.5% may we'll be more competitive than a rate of 1.5%. But we don't have the info to judge.

T

[orange31]

Not sure about the market for this. Chiang Mai to Bangkok will have trouble competing with air in terms of cost and convenience, shorter distances with have trouble competing with coach. Far more important would be to develop short and medium distance tracks in and out of Bangkok where traffic is a bigger problem. When you get out of Bangkok traffic is generally ok.

[orange31]

Not sure about the market for this. Chiang Mai to Bangkok will have trouble competing with air in terms of cost and convenience, shorter distances with have trouble competing with coach. Far more important would be to develop short and medium distance tracks in and out of Bangkok where traffic is a bigger problem. When you get out of Bangkok traffic is generally ok.

[apetley]

Why could u possibly justify doing business with the Chinese if their rate is that much higher?

If they agree to buy an extra couple of million tons of rice then the higher rate becomes a little more palatable.

[ourmanflint]

Jolly good news! I really hope that this time this line gets its well deserved upgrade, as I know it will change the lives of many people for the better.... myself included!!

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Not sure about the market for this. Chiang Mai to Bangkok will have trouble competing with air in terms of cost and convenience, shorter distances with have trouble competing with coach. Far more important would be to develop short and medium distance tracks in and out of Bangkok where traffic is a bigger problem. When you get out of Bangkok traffic is generally ok.

Yes, this. At 250 km/h average and minimal stops totaling a total of one hour for stops (incl slowing down, etc.) you're looking at about 4 hours to go from Bangkok to Chiang Mai. So that's about twice as fast as you can do by car. And four times slower than by air.

For leisure travel where you also get to see some scenery along the way I think 4 hours could work. For business travel it really doesn't, because by air you can leave Chiang Mai on a 7am flight and then be in downtown Bangkok at a reasonable 9:30am for a meeting. With a train you can't do that, you'll have wasted more than half a day.

And then cost.. Current train (which is best described as a museum line) costs about 800 Baht and hasn't been raised in years. Air starts around 1500 Baht. Which will likely creep up to a starting fair around 2000 Baht by the time the high speed train is ready. The train would have to be cheaper than that; at more than 1200 Baht or so it doesn't really make sense. (It might make more sense when traveling to points in between, say from Lampang to Nakhon Sawan or whatever, which is difficult by air)

Still would it make financial sense at that price level?

Maybe it's time to declare rail dead, other than for freight lines (does not have to be particularly high speed) and tourism. Or extremely high density corridors, say downtown Bangkok to Chonburi, Sri Racha and Pattaya.

[fareastguy]

Why could u possibly justify doing business with the Chinese if their rate is that much higher?

Have you ever heard of the expression "eggs in one basket" !!

Always makes sense to have a Plan B...

[Thai at Heart]

Why could u possibly justify doing business with the Chinese if their rate is that much higher?

Have you ever heard of the expression "eggs in one basket" !!

Always makes sense to have a Plan B...

I somehow doubt that the Japanese railway industry is due to collapse anytime soon?

They might as well borrow the money from the Japanese to fund the Chinese business.....

[Jaggg88]

Is it really a good idea to have some Japanese men in charge of building a railway line in Thailand ? I mean, that film "Bridge on the River Kwai", a lot of people back home don't actually know that the bridge is in Thailand.

They do now because they watched 'Top Gear' on the BBC