Texas shootout among rival biker gangs leaves 9 dead

[CMNightRider]

The first article you posted was from 2006 and the second from 2009. Does this mean all law enforcement in Texas, are less than honest or the Waco law enforcement officers are dishonest? Of course not.

If you commit a crime in America, it doesn't make any difference if you are a police officer, priest, or in this incident outlaw bikers, you will be held accountable.

To my knowledge, there were no corrupt police involved in this incident, no black people participated in the shootout, and no people of color were harmed by the police or the bikers. Wow, that kind of narrows it down now doesn't it.

Read the thread to get the context. You're arguing against a point I didn't make... Sorry I had to delete one quote block.

What was the point you are trying to make?

[impulse]

What was the point you are trying to make?

You made a claim that cops can't just stop and search you or your vehicle without reasonable cause.

Goremes claimed that some cops have their own definition of "reasonable cause", which often includes driving while black. (I'm paraphrasing)

I provided a couple of examples where cops had, in fact done quite a lot of stuff that they're not allowed to do, including pulling over black folk without reasonable cause, and confiscating the money in their possession- with no due process or reason to believe the money was related to criminal enterprise.

So, while cops aren't allowed to stop and search without reasonable cause, my point is that they occasionally do anyway. Anyone who believes otherwise just doesn't read the news. So I linked to a couple of clippings.

I guess I should have pointed out they have nothing to do with the incident in Waco. Just the occasional corrupt or overzealous cop.

Edited May 20, 2015 by impulse

[sdanielmcev]

As stated before, the NRA had, nor has anything to do with this incident.

[Publicus]

I wonder how many the police killed. I have yet to see a gang banger who could shoot well. They steal a gun or buy from an "across the border" gun runner and think they are all tough. Nine dead.

All there is at this point are the preliminary autopsy reports pending completion of the autopsies and the release of full reports as ordered by a justice of the peace.

The preliminary findings are not good however, but we'll see what the authorities come up with in a final document concerning the ten-member Waco police firing squad SWAT unit at the scene.

The preliminary autopsy reports state that, of the nine dead biker-gangsters, eight were Cossacks and one wuz of the Bandidos. There is a definite pattern where the bullets hit on seven of the nine, the other two still being autopsied while no preliminary report had been issued on the two.

The preliminary autopsy report of the seven said four of 'em were each hit by a bullet to the head, one more hit by bullets to the neck and the head.

Of the seven total, all were hit by bullets to either the torso or the neck or the head or in all three places. The ol' SWAT one-two tap and in a few instances a third one.

A police affidavit on the shooting that provided evidence to the judges to lock up the swarm of biker gangbangers said 27 people were shot by police with eight still in the hospital. Seven of the 18 surviving shot up biker gangbangers remain in the hospital.

Report of Waco Police Affidavit/Warrants Inconsistent With Initial Public Claims By Same Police…

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/19/report-of-waco-police-affidavitwarrants-inconsistent-with-initial-public-claims-by-same-police/

Reports on all of this keep changing as pointed out in the link above. The changes start with the origin of the event, which police said starting in the boys' room then said instead that it had started outside when a biker-gangster got his foot run over by another biker. A number of us have had our foot accidentally run over by a bike and I even volunteered in Chiang Mai to have an elephant walk over me --it took two steps back over me besides then resumed going forward-- but I didn't shoot anyone or anything nor would I. But that's me

It's still unclear what happened when the police said they called "nearby" off duty police from shopping at the largely closed mall to reinforce the uniformed police presence. Waco police say only "three or four" police actually fired their weapons. Some reports are that only four biker-gangsters were shot by police, others say all of 'em were.

There are unconfirmed reports three undercover state police and also undercover ATF agents had infiltrated the Cossacks and the Bandidos and a few other biker gangs in Texas. Among other Texas biker gangs at the restaurant were the Blackett Arms, Gypsy MC, HonorBound Motorcycle Ministry, Renatus, Escondidos, Los Pirados, Leathernecks, Vietnam Vets/Legacy Vets, In Country and the Tornado Motorcycle Club. Why the Waco and Texas state authorities allowed this is the core question of a preventative approach to law enforcement and of the police keeping the peace.

All the same, however, the Waco Texas question presents itself: Why didn't the Waco authorities declare a local state of emergency to search the biker-gangbangers on the basis of the civil authorities' fearing the violence they did in fact fear, and so that the violent spasm of the bloodbath that did occur might have been precluded. The Waco and state police instead lined up outside the Twin Peaks eatery to wait for the expected violence to erupt, and when it did the police apparently opened fire. A police firing squad. Law and order Texas style.

[Publicus]

And this is from a guy on another thread that claims he has an 'automatic handgun.' Reeks of hypocrisy.

Publicus a hypocrite?! Nah, not our dear Publicus! You must be thinking of some other Publicus somewhere else.

Never took it anywhere or otherwise carried it much less to fast food restaurants.

Youse guyz are pounding on the table again.

[metisdead]

Off topic posts and replies have been removed.

[seedy]

many posts removed - off topic, troll / flaming, bashing, bickering

all the usual subjects

please stay on topic

[Publicus]

What a silly contrivance ... NRA here NRA there ... NRA EVERYWHERE... There are members there of AAA ...Triple A that fearful roadside towing insurance service. Oh Shudder. And those nasty GIECO card carriers ... Oh the worst...

People carrying NRA cards has nothing to do with where they are or what they are doing - even for Law Enforcement Officers or bystanders. What silly boogeman contrivance that is being stirred up .... Totally laughable B.S.

But of course this silliness has to be brought up ... there is nothing concrete to talk about ...

So in the standard Leftist manner -- just make things up ... exaggerate, embellish and fabricate ...

The NRA Ooooohhhh the HughManatee .... Good Grief .... Blaming the NRA for the Texas shoot out ... scraping the bottom of the barrel are you? You smoking some Whaky Tabaccy?

You really should stick with littering the place up with wallpaper...

Why didn't the Waco authorities declare a local state of emergency to search the biker-gangbangers on the basis of the civil authorities' fearing the violence they did in fact fear, and so that the violent spasm of the bloodbath that did occur might have been precluded. The Waco and state police instead lined up outside the Twin Peaks eatery to wait for the expected violence to erupt, and when it did the police apparently opened fire. A police firing squad. Law and order Texas and NRA style.

It's a good question. Couldn't the restaurant have insisted on a property-entry search by the police since it was their property? However, weren't there reports of poor cooperation in general between the restaurant management and police? I don't see why a "local state of emergency" would be necessary. Don't they routinely perform searches of game attendees when entering the stadium. Maybe they should have called in the TSA with all their scanning equipment.

BTW, can you provide us with a link to a "NRA Firing Squad Style Book" or some such? It doesn't necessarily have to be the "Texas" version if that would be easier for you.

I'd said in my post just a bit above yours "A police firing squad." You do read the posts?

I've also said it is more than reasonable to believe some, many, most --whatever quantification it may be-- Waco and state police in Texas are members of the NRA, as would be some certain right wing posters at website discussion boards in many instances and places where guns and gun laws are debated or argued.

Oh, it's highly likely some, many, most Texas Rangers would be dues-paying members of the NRA, to include former and various LEO throughout Texas and in other states --again, some states, perhaps many states, most states, probably all states.

http://www.readwritethink.org/classroom-resources/lesson-plans/building-reading-comprehension-through-139.html

[NeverSure]

I'd said in my post just a bit above yours "A police firing squad." You do read the posts?

I've also said it is more than reasonable to believe some, many, most --whatever quantification it may be-- Waco and state police in Texas are members of the NRA, as would be some certain right wing posters at website discussion boards in many instances and places where guns and gun laws are debated or argued.

Oh, it's highly likely some, many, most Texas Rangers would be dues-paying members of the NRA, to include former and various LEO throughout Texas and in other states --again, some states, perhaps many states, most states, probably all states.

http://www.readwritethink.org/classroom-resources/lesson-plans/building-reading-comprehension-through-139.html

Your emotional outbursts combined with your emotional conclusions don't necessarily equal truth.

There are about three million members in the NRA and about 100 million gun owners in the USA. So if all of the NRA members are also gun owners, then only 3% of gun owners belong to the NRA. Link to the Washington Post debunking some notions.

Yet somehow in your thinking every gun owner including all police are influenced by the NRA and if anything bad goes down it's the fault of the NRA. Do the 97% of gun owners who don't belong to the NRA even exist for you?

Lemme tell ya sumpin'. The right to keep and bear arms belongs to the people and not to an NRA or the government or the police or anyone else. The SCOTUS has ruled over and over that this right belongs to the people and maybe you noticed they it just boxed DC's ears for making concealed carry illegal for most people.

The issue here is criminals and criminal activity and I'm happy to wait for the facts to come out to see what went down. Just don't forget that it's legal for the police (and even a citizen) to shoot people if they do it to protect someone else. We don't know but what a lot more people could have been killed if someone, anyone didn't start shooting people who posed a danger.

Cheers

Edited May 20, 2015 by NeverSure

[MaxYakov]

What a silly contrivance ... NRA here NRA there ... NRA EVERYWHERE... There are members there of AAA ...Triple A that fearful roadside towing insurance service. Oh Shudder. And those nasty GIECO card carriers ... Oh the worst...

People carrying NRA cards has nothing to do with where they are or what they are doing - even for Law Enforcement Officers or bystanders. What silly boogeman contrivance that is being stirred up .... Totally laughable B.S.

But of course this silliness has to be brought up ... there is nothing concrete to talk about ...

So in the standard Leftist manner -- just make things up ... exaggerate, embellish and fabricate ...

The NRA Ooooohhhh the HughManatee .... Good Grief .... Blaming the NRA for the Texas shoot out ... scraping the bottom of the barrel are you? You smoking some Whaky Tabaccy?

You really should stick with littering the place up with wallpaper...

Why didn't the Waco authorities declare a local state of emergency to search the biker-gangbangers on the basis of the civil authorities' fearing the violence they did in fact fear, and so that the violent spasm of the bloodbath that did occur might have been precluded. The Waco and state police instead lined up outside the Twin Peaks eatery to wait for the expected violence to erupt, and when it did the police apparently opened fire. A police firing squad. Law and order Texas and NRA style.

It's a good question. Couldn't the restaurant have insisted on a property-entry search by the police since it was their property? However, weren't there reports of poor cooperation in general between the restaurant management and police? I don't see why a "local state of emergency" would be necessary. Don't they routinely perform searches of game attendees when entering the stadium. Maybe they should have called in the TSA with all their scanning equipment.

BTW, can you provide us with a link to a "NRA Firing Squad Style Book" or some such? It doesn't necessarily have to be the "Texas" version if that would be easier for you.

I'd said in my post just a bit above yours "A police firing squad." You do read the posts?

I've also said it is more than reasonable to believe some, many, most --whatever quantification it may be-- Waco and state police in Texas are members of the NRA, as would be some certain right wing posters at website discussion boards in many instances and places where guns and gun laws are debated or argued.

Oh, it's highly likely some, many, most Texas Rangers would be dues-paying members of the NRA, to include former and various LEO throughout Texas and in other states --again, some states, perhaps many states, most states, probably all states.

http://www.readwritethink.org/classroom-resources/lesson-plans/building-reading-comprehension-through-139.html

"A police firing squad. Law and order Texas [sic]and NRA style."

The way I read it (and I believe most would) the second sentence is drawing a conclusion about the assertion of the preceding one. If that is not the case, then they should be rewritten or withdrawn.

Do you read your own posts?

Again, isn't conjecture and discussion of the NRA off topic?

[metisdead]

Off topic deflection posts have been removed, this ain't about the NRA, it's about a Texas shoot out among rival biker gangs.

[thaiguzzi]

Some interesting stuff coming out of Biker and investigative websites. It appears there is more to this tragedy than meets the eye. Undercover cops. Overzealous local enforcement. Definetely was not as first announced in the press. These "Confederation of Clubs" meetings are apparently held in nearly every state every couple of months, and are std procedure, club politics, firmly not part of the agenda.

[thaiguzzi]

As usual with the police hand outs to the press, "weapons found" have included such dangerous items as nail clippers. It all adds up in the numbers. As for knives, what American biker does not have a pocket knife or Buck knife on his belt? I carried a Buck knife on my belt all my adult life, right up to the time i left the UK in 2003 (now illegal).

[thaiguzzi]

Reminds me of a clubhouse raid in Munich in the early 80's, front page photo in the next day's local newspaper showing weapons found. Amongst a few knives, a couple of baseball bats, the odd sword and machete, were a couple of table spoons...

[Credo]

A let me see, 9 dead, 18 hospitalized, I think, and 170 arrested. I think this is a little more serious than the Munich raid.

[impulse]

A let me see, 9 dead, 18 hospitalized, I think, and 170 arrested. I think this is a little more serious than the Munich raid.

Maybe if the Munich police came loaded for bear, the results would have looked similar.

I'll wait for them to release the videos and the autopsy results before forming an opinion, but the more we hear from sources other than the Waco cop spokesman, the murkier the story gets.

[thaiguzzi]

What is needed, are CCTV images and police radio transmissions of the whole shebang. May not be immediately forthcoming...

[impulse]

What is needed, are CCTV images and police radio transmissions of the whole shebang. May not be immediately forthcoming...

I've been reading that some video has been brought to the media, but they're holding it back from the public (and turned copies over to the police) because of the ongoing investigation. And that's on top of any video that the police must have from the scene.

In today's age, I imagine there are dozens of smart phone owners negotiating exclusivity with the media on their video- before they hand it over.

And, of course, it will be impossible to prosecute anyone without the autopsy results coming forth. I imagine we'll also hear whose guns have been fired and how many times.

It may take a while, but I think we'll know what happened -eventually.

[CMNightRider]

I wonder how many the police killed. I have yet to see a gang banger who could shoot well. They steal a gun or buy from an "across the border" gun runner and think they are all tough. Nine dead.

All there is at this point are the preliminary autopsy reports pending completion of the autopsies and the release of full reports as ordered by a justice of the peace.

The preliminary findings are not good however, but we'll see what the authorities come up with in a final document concerning the ten-member Waco police firing squad SWAT unit at the scene.

The preliminary autopsy reports state that, of the nine dead biker-gangsters, eight were Cossacks and one wuz of the Bandidos. There is a definite pattern where the bullets hit on seven of the nine, the other two still being autopsied while no preliminary report had been issued on the two.

The preliminary autopsy report of the seven said four of 'em were each hit by a bullet to the head, one more hit by bullets to the neck and the head.

Of the seven total, all were hit by bullets to either the torso or the neck or the head or in all three places. The ol' SWAT one-two tap and in a few instances a third one.

A police affidavit on the shooting that provided evidence to the judges to lock up the swarm of biker gangbangers said 27 people were shot by police with eight still in the hospital. Seven of the 18 surviving shot up biker gangbangers remain in the hospital.

Report of Waco Police Affidavit/Warrants Inconsistent With Initial Public Claims By Same Police…

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/05/19/report-of-waco-police-affidavitwarrants-inconsistent-with-initial-public-claims-by-same-police/

Reports on all of this keep changing as pointed out in the link above. The changes start with the origin of the event, which police said starting in the boys' room then said instead that it had started outside when a biker-gangster got his foot run over by another biker. A number of us have had our foot accidentally run over by a bike and I even volunteered in Chiang Mai to have an elephant walk over me --it took two steps back over me besides then resumed going forward-- but I didn't shoot anyone or anything nor would I. But that's me

It's still unclear what happened when the police said they called "nearby" off duty police from shopping at the largely closed mall to reinforce the uniformed police presence. Waco police say only "three or four" police actually fired their weapons. Some reports are that only four biker-gangsters were shot by police, others say all of 'em were.

There are unconfirmed reports three undercover state police and also undercover ATF agents had infiltrated the Cossacks and the Bandidos and a few other biker gangs in Texas. Among other Texas biker gangs at the restaurant were the Blackett Arms, Gypsy MC, HonorBound Motorcycle Ministry, Renatus, Escondidos, Los Pirados, Leathernecks, Vietnam Vets/Legacy Vets, In Country and the Tornado Motorcycle Club. Why the Waco and Texas state authorities allowed this is the core question of a preventative approach to law enforcement and of the police keeping the peace.

All the same, however, the Waco Texas question presents itself: Why didn't the Waco authorities declare a local state of emergency to search the biker-gangbangers on the basis of the civil authorities' fearing the violence they did in fact fear, and so that the violent spasm of the bloodbath that did occur might have been precluded. The Waco and state police instead lined up outside the Twin Peaks eatery to wait for the expected violence to erupt, and when it did the police apparently opened fire. A police firing squad. Law and order Texas style.

"A police firing squad. Law and order Texas style."??? Your entire post is anti-law enforcement. What's up with your deep hatred for police?

You "volunteered in Chiang Mai to have an elephant walk over you."??? What has that got to do with the biker shootout?

[goreme]

You act as if you are not aware of probable cause. Police in America, can't just stop a vehicle unless they have probable cause nor can they just walk up to a person and search them. It doesn't make any difference if the person is wearing a jacket will a biker gang logo on it or if they are dressed in a bunny suit.

Yes, police in America are known to come up with their own probable cause when it suits them, and quite often if the person is black.

Are you speaking from experience, just making this up, or you saw this in a movie?

Are you woefully naive or genuinely ignorant?

[chuckd]

As usual with the police hand outs to the press, "weapons found" have included such dangerous items as nail clippers. It all adds up in the numbers. As for knives, what American biker does not have a pocket knife or Buck knife on his belt? I carried a Buck knife on my belt all my adult life, right up to the time i left the UK in 2003 (now illegal).

I don't see nail clippers on the list but perhaps you have a different list. Here is the list from the Waco PD:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The police count of the number of weapons recovered from the scene of the deadly Waco shootout continues to fluctuate.

Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton now says crime scene officers have made a new weapons count and come up with 318 "and still counting." Swanton said he expected the count to continue to rise.

Of those weapons counted so far, 118 are handguns, one is an AK-47 assault-style rifle and 157 are knives. Swanton says weapons still uncounted are clubs, knives, brass knuckles, firearms and chains with padlocks attached.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WACO_SHOOTING_THE_LATEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-20-17-30-55

[impulse]

It's Texas. You could get 118 handguns and a dozen AK47's from the cars in any good sized shopping mall. And all of them could be perfectly legal.

Brass knuckles, not so legal. But what's the count? And how many of the guys with weapons didn't have CCP's? Let me edit that to ask how many of the firearms were illegal, just to avoid a pissing contest about CCPs. And how many of the confiscated weapons were fired?

There's still a lot more to discover on this story.

Edited May 21, 2015 by impulse

[CMNightRider]

You act as if you are not aware of probable cause. Police in America, can't just stop a vehicle unless they have probable cause nor can they just walk up to a person and search them. It doesn't make any difference if the person is wearing a jacket will a biker gang logo on it or if they are dressed in a bunny suit.

Yes, police in America are known to come up with their own probable cause when it suits them, and quite often if the person is black.

Are you speaking from experience, just making this up, or you saw this in a movie?

Are you woefully naive or genuinely ignorant?

Neither Goreme, but it is obvious by your posts, you know woefully little about police in America.

[Publicus]

It's a good question. Couldn't the restaurant have insisted on a property-entry search by the police since it was their property? However, weren't there reports of poor cooperation in general between the restaurant management and police? I don't see why a "local state of emergency" would be necessary. Don't they routinely perform searches of game attendees when entering the stadium. Maybe they should have called in the TSA with all their scanning equipment.

BTW, can you provide us with a link to a "NRA Firing Squad Style Book" or some such? It doesn't necessarily have to be the "Texas" version if that would be easier for you.

I'd said in my post just a bit above yours "A police firing squad." You do read the posts?

I've also said it is more than reasonable to believe some, many, most --whatever quantification it may be-- Waco and state police in Texas are members of the NRA, as would be some certain right wing posters at website discussion boards in many instances and places where guns and gun laws are debated or argued.

Oh, it's highly likely some, many, most Texas Rangers would be dues-paying members of the NRA, to include former and various LEO throughout Texas and in other states --again, some states, perhaps many states, most states, probably all states.

http://www.readwritethink.org/classroom-resources/lesson-plans/building-reading-comprehension-through-139.html

"A police firing squad. Law and order Texas [sic]and NRA style."

The way I read it (and I believe most would) the second sentence is drawing a conclusion about the assertion of the preceding one. If that is not the case, then they should be rewritten or withdrawn.

Do you read your own posts?

Again, isn't conjecture and discussion of the NRA off topic?

Your post quotes my post in this fashion: "A police firing squad. Law and order Texas [sic]and NRA style."

My post in fact states: "A police firing squad. Law and order Texas style."

So your post introduces the NRA specifically. Then you allege I am off topic (begging yet again). That is disingenuous.

Another of your posts presents the following challenge: "BTW, can you provide us with a link to a "NRA Firing Squad Style Book" or some such? It doesn't necessarily have to be the "Texas" version if that would be easier for you."

Ask and ye shall receive and I am pleased to accommodate any adversaries in discourse even if your quoting of my post is in violation of the TVF quoting rules...

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/05/06/1297151/-NRA-Announces-a-Solution-for-Botched-Death-Penalty#

Edited May 21, 2015 by seedy
font

[Publicus]

As usual with the police hand outs to the press, "weapons found" have included such dangerous items as nail clippers. It all adds up in the numbers. As for knives, what American biker does not have a pocket knife or Buck knife on his belt? I carried a Buck knife on my belt all my adult life, right up to the time i left the UK in 2003 (now illegal).

I don't see nail clippers on the list but perhaps you have a different list. Here is the list from the Waco PD:

-------------------------------------------------------------------

The police count of the number of weapons recovered from the scene of the deadly Waco shootout continues to fluctuate.

Waco police Sgt. W. Patrick Swanton now says crime scene officers have made a new weapons count and come up with 318 "and still counting." Swanton said he expected the count to continue to rise.

Of those weapons counted so far, 118 are handguns, one is an AK-47 assault-style rifle and 157 are knives. Swanton says weapons still uncounted are clubs, knives, brass knuckles, firearms and chains with padlocks attached.

http://customwire.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_WACO_SHOOTING_THE_LATEST?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2015-05-20-17-30-55

I saw the reports that said nail clippers were among the items the police found and confiscated as evidence, but can't find even one of the articles at this time and I'm tired of looking. I must say you're slipping up in your attention to details so I'm not going to become your personal compensatory researcher.

Here of course is a reason police anywhere might confiscate nail clippers as a weapon or potential weapons.

How to Make a Nail Clipper Gun

You're welcome.

[goreme]

Are you speaking from experience, just making this up, or you saw this in a movie?

Are you woefully naive or genuinely ignorant?

Neither Goreme, but it is obvious by your posts, you know woefully little about police in America.

Yes, all the documented evidence of intentional police brutality, coverups and killings are fabricated by the media and those know-nothing liberals.

[CMNightRider]

Are you speaking from experience, just making this up, or you saw this in a movie?

Are you woefully naive or genuinely ignorant?

Neither Goreme, but it is obvious by your posts, you know woefully little about police in America.

Yes, all the documented evidence of intentional police brutality, coverups and killings are fabricated by the media and those know-nothing liberals.

OMG! What is wrong with you? America's law enforcement are dedicated professionals that stand between law abiding citizens and anarchy. I didn't imply you were a "know-nothing liberal" but if you want to align with this group it's up to you.

This is about the biker shootout in Texas, where law enforcement did a good job it containing their violence and arresting the people involved. Get a life dude.

[JDGRUEN]

The Waco police and other state police elements had no particular right to stop these motorcycle gang members in hours or days before the incident. If this had been a group of OWS folks or those hoards of anarchists who routinely create violence at economic summits as have been widely publicized -- AND had they been stopped in a preventative measure - and searched on the way to their big Protest - no end of screaming about fascist cops would be heard. By all evidence the police forces contained the violence... silly accusation throwing won't stick ... it is just hate the American cop campaign ... Federalize the police is next coming from some posters... and other silly crap.

[Publicus]

The Waco police and other state police elements had no particular right to stop these motorcycle gang members in hours or days before the incident. If this had been a group of OWS folks or those hoards of anarchists who routinely create violence at economic summits as have been widely publicized -- AND had they been stopped in a preventative measure - and searched on the way to their big Protest - no end of screaming about fascist cops would be heard. By all evidence the police forces contained the violence... silly accusation throwing won't stick ... it is just hate the American cop campaign ... Federalize the police is next coming from some posters... and other silly crap.

Local elected officials in government have the authority to declare an emergency based on local laws.

This occurs in both natural calamities and in man made ones, and this was always going to be and in fact was a man made calamity.

I was terrible public policy to begin with to accept and host this swarm of violent criminal biker gangs and to do it on a regular ongoing basis over a significant period of time.

There's an old tradition down there to check your guns at the town line before entering town and the saloon and that is not myth about the old West. The laws still allow such a policy and it is a matter of public safety civil libertarians do endorse.

The authorities to include the Waco police created anarchy instead while presenting themselves as the defenders and champions of law and order.

Bizarre.

[JDGRUEN]

Totally Speculative Baloney ... made up thesis ---