Does Asean know the meaning of 'emergency'?

[boomerangutang]

The mind-set of 'blame' can go on and on. We could blame the Iraqis for polluting the air by torching the Kuwaiti oil fields. We could blame the Papuans for being the first to export sugar cane (contributing to slavery and causing half the people in developed countries to be fat). We could blame the guy guarding the bees in Brazil for letting some escape - leading to killer bee infestations over thousands of sq.Km. in the Americas.

Blame is old-school. Now is the time for finding solutions.

I think down-deep, SE Asian countries are hoping for US and European money to establish refugee camps. They're already likely to get UN money for that.

Most countries in the world want solutions and money to emanate from N.America, Europe and other farang countries. That's the main reason N.Korea is always saber rattling. It wants farang countries to give it lots of money - to ensure it doesn't develop N weapons.

As for refugee camps: most are in Africa and the Middle east. All are funded, at least in part, but the UN. Does SE Asia need another (besides the one it has on the Thai-Burmese border?). Probably yes. It just may be the least painful of the ugly options available now.

It will boil down to money. If western countries promise big money to Thailand, purportedly for refugee camp(s), then Thailand will reluctantly agree. Though there will be a stipulation limiting the # of migrants allowed - and, of course, that stipulation won't mean anything realistic.

In this case its quite clear who is at least partially to blame and who should pay. Britain, not the Thais not the UN. I would feel it was justified if the Brits shouldered a lot and the rest came from the UN. I understand that the Brits don't want that and will deny it but they are of course bias as it will cost them money.

Do tell me why the Thais should have to pay and the Brits would not.. and please tell me who are more to blame ?

If Thais can find a farang to blame, they will. People are adept at believing things en masse. Most Palestinians believe 9-11 was an Israeli plot. Many Americans believe 9-11 was orchestrated by Bush Jr. Chinese believe early ancestral Man came from China, not out of from Africa. We shouldn't fan the fires of false-blame by Thais who would love to blame the migrant mess on the Brits. It was almost 200 yrs ago, for Bob's sake, since the Brits were involved for a few decades in Burma.

What's happened in the world in the past 200 years? Lots. It's one thing to know some history, but it's another to lay blame. Brits are an easy target, because they're relatively rich and they're more humanitarian than Asians. If there was an American connection (maybe in 1782 some American whalers moved some Bengladeshis to Burma on a ship) ....then yippee, we've found a way to blame America, and can get some money pay-outs for the current problem. Regardless, the US will probably pay at least several million dollars to try and lessen the hardship of the migrants. That's what Americans do: they send money and support to people they aren't related to. Brits do that also. That's a very alien concept to an Asian.

[boomerangutang]

Robblok, if your Thai buddies said there were fire-breathing dragons in the Mekong river, would you believe that also? Or that ghosts inhabit every dark and unfamiliar cranny in Thailand - would you believe that also? Those are some of the things Thais convince themselves to believe.

Brits had some peripheral involvement with the Burmese 200 years ago, but the Burmese have had involvements with 'outsiders' for hundreds, some say thousands of years. Some of the first migrations of humans came along the Burmese coast between 42,000 and 36,000 years ago. Some of their descendants (very dark, negroid features) still reside on the islands in the upper Andaman Sea. Burmese Kingdoms have had interactions with Bengalis, Siamese and Chinese over hundreds of years. Do your Thai friends want to factor in all those interactions, in their blame game? No. They'd rather focus on just a small group of Brits (mostly looking for gems and timber) from 200 yrs ago - because that's their best shot at getting some sympathy money.

Edited May 19, 2015 by boomerangutang

[robblok]

Robblok, if your Thai buddies said there were fire-breathing dragons in the Mekong river, would you believe that also? Or that ghosts inhabit every dark and unfamiliar cranny in Thailand - would you believe that also? Those are some of the things Thais convince themselves to believe.

Brits had some peripheral involvement with the Burmese 200 years ago, but the Burmese have had involvements with 'outsiders' for hundreds, some say thousands of years. Some of the first migrations of humans came along the Burmese coast between 42,000 and 36,000 years ago. Some of their descendants (very dark, negroid features) still reside on the islands in the upper Andaman Sea. Burmese Kingdoms have had interactions with Bengalis, Siamese and Chinese over hundreds of years. Do your Thai friends want to factor in all those interactions, in their blame game? No. They'd rather focus on just a small group of Brits (mostly looking for gems and timber) from 200 yrs ago - because that's their best shot at getting some sympathy money.

So far I found facts online to backup the movement of people by the Brits. You so far have not provided any links. So it seems I have to trust the Thais over you because so far the facts back them up.

Your hot air is not backed up by anything.

We see in China what relocation of people can do to the people who lived there originally. This is the same scenario the Brits (according to those sources that I read) did. In both cases its wrong.

Actually WiKi also back this up so I got 2 independent sources stating the Brits started this. Please provide me with some facts to counter this. Seems the Thais were spot on.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people

[boomerangutang]

I'm not challenging what may have happened 200 yrs ago. I'm putting it in context of time and degree. If a bird shat on my car windshield 10 years ago, should I get a shotgun and shoot all the birds in my neighborhood? I can picture how Thais and others would be eager to find a way to pin problems in 2015 to something that may have happened by a few farang in the early 19th century. It's called blame, and it's petty and small-minded, as I said earlier. If you want to encourage that sort of diversion, go ahead. Personally, I would encourage Thais and Burmese to look at the current reality and deal with it responsibly, and not try to divert and blame it on farang. It's time to replace the pink pampers with shorts, put aside the training wheels, and grow up.

[boomerangutang]

"The Brits started this"

Come on, dude. The Chinese started firecrackers. You wanna blame all the trouble from gunpowder on the Chinese?

[englishoak]

I recently had a talk with some Thais on this subject and they pointed out to me they blamed the British for this and did not feel they should take them up. They said we did not create the problem the British did in the past why should be pay for it.

That was why I made the comment, I argued that I am for settlement of refugees in the region.. The Thais I spoke with were adamant not our problem created by the British let them solve it too.

Now thinking about it I can understand their points, this was created by an other foreign power who made good money from stuff like this and now they want others to pay for it.

I would say take them in and let the Brits pay for it (partly) and other countries too if you don't want them on your own doorstep. Settlement in the region is a good thing but should be financed not only by those in the region.

To add.. by attacking in the middle east we also created refugees.. and we are partly responsible for them (WE is EU and US) Create a war torn country. Then one should help the ones you hurt too not just bomb countries take their oil and screw them over.

I BLAME THE Vikings for all the blonde people in Britain when they invaded us and stole our farmland,I say send all those Danes back home,or can't we go backThat far?

Fair point.. but if what i posted is correct (the resettling part) as I just got it from a website and am not 100% sure. Then the Brits are responsible. Its quite a while back but still not as far back as your example. As I said they should take at least part of the responsibility as its quite clear then who created this mess for a large part.

But I get your point about going back.. but in this case its quite clear. But because its so long ago.. its shared responsibility where the Brits IMHO are far more responsible as that Thais who had nothing to do with it. So its clear who should pay at least part of it and it is not the Thais.

This was the point my Thai friends made and I can't argue with it, Thais are blameless, the Brits are not. They are at least partially responsible and should man up.

Blameless ? oh i wouldnt say that, been enough Thais benefiting from the human trafficking and slavery trade and helped kept it going for decades. And now the partys coming to an end they wish to pass the blame and share the cost of cleaning it up ? sure they do

We could go on all night going back decades or hundreds, even thousands of years for many cultures/countries wrongdoing, we live in the present not 1800, Thailand does little as it is to help their own minority groups, refuses them citizenship and has routinely made money and business out of trafficking people from all over the Asian region and continues to this day. Please dont tell us Thailand is blameless

Try the Thai concept of statute of limitations, Thai murderers and scam artists and wanted political criminals all come home after the 10 year time limit is up, they will get that. According to Thai law responsibility ends after 10 years, so ask them how after 200 years and having left Burma and the Asia region 70 years ago to home rule and management it makes Britain responsible today ? Not one Asian country or previous colony has even tried to address the issues during all that time until now or got together to do so, Isnt 70 years or so long enough to determine regional issues and responsibility ? apparently not when theres a cost involved. Double standards as usual.

Thailand has said many times other nations should keep out of its business, well trafficking, slavery and mass graves in holding camps most certainly is its business so why dosnt that ever get said when theres a financial cost to cleaning up involved ?

[rametindallas]

I recently had a talk with some Thais on this subject and they pointed out to me they blamed the British for this and did not feel they should take them up. They said we did not create the problem the British did in the past why should be pay for it.

That was why I made the comment, I argued that I am for settlement of refugees in the region.. The Thais I spoke with were adamant not our problem created by the British let them solve it too.

Now thinking about it I can understand their points, this was created by an other foreign power who made good money from stuff like this and now they want others to pay for it.

I would say take them in and let the Brits pay for it (partly) and other countries too if you don't want them on your own doorstep. Settlement in the region is a good thing but should be financed not only by those in the region.

To add.. by attacking in the middle east we also created refugees.. and we are partly responsible for them (WE is EU and US) Create a war torn country. Then one should help the ones you hurt too not just bomb countries take their oil and screw them over.

The situation as the British left Burma is not the root cause but is due to Independent Burma's governments. The real trouble began in 2012 when the Rohingya were still in their villages and coexisting with native Burmese:

A Legal and Structural Analysis of the Violence in Rakhine Stateagainst the Rohingya Muslims of MyanmarBy Karen Pimentel Simbulan

Introduction

On May 28, three Rohingya Muslim men raped and killed an Arakenese woman from theYanbye Township in Rakhine State (formerly Arakan State), Myanmar. Purportedly because of this criminal offense, on June 3, 2012, hundreds of Arakenese Buddhists surrounded a bus carrying Muslim pilgrims in Taungup Township, Rakhine State, forced ten Muslim men off the bus, and proceeded to beat the men to death. According to the Myanmar government, these twoevents caused riots to break out in Sittway, Maungtaw and Buthidaung Townships, leaving 77 people dead and 109 people injured.

1) A total of 4,822 houses, 17 mosques, 15 monasteries, and 3schools were also burnt down.

2) Human Rights Watch estimates that the violence has also led to the displacement of 100,000 people, among them 75,000 Muslims, and the mass arrests of hundreds of Rohingya Muslims.

3) Several months later, from October 21-24, Arakenese Buddhists again rioted and attacked villages populated by Rohingya and Kaman Muslims in Rakhine State. Houses and mosques were burnt to the ground and at least 70 Muslims were killed in Mrauk-U, including 28 children. An additional 37,000 people were also displaced, bringing the total number of displaced persons from Rakhine State to 120,000 people.

4) President Thein Sein claimed that the October riots were unexpected.

5) But an examination of recent Myanmar history reveals that the attacks against the Rohingya Muslims that occurred in June and October of 2012 were not isolated incidents but part of a recurring pattern of antagonism and violence against the Rohingya that has been perpetuated mainly by the State.

http://www.academia.edu/6101564/Legal_and_Structural_Analysis_of_Violence_in_Rakhine_State_against_the_Rohingya_Muslims_of_Myanmar

A more comprehensive report by the Australian Government that includes pre-2012 history

Background

The history of the Rohingya in Myanmar is contested and complex. The current conflict can perhaps best be described as ‘a clash of two contending interpretations over the perceived “overwhelming” presence of Muslims in Rakhine’.[12]

While the history is vigorously debated, one of the most important drivers of the conflict is the view, shared across much of Myanmar’s mainstream political spectrum, that the Rohingya do not constitute one of the country’s 135 officially recognized ‘indigenous’ ethnic groups and therefore are not citizens of the country. Instead, they are considered by many to be ‘illegal immigrants’ from neighboring Bangladesh, whose population levels directly threaten local ethnic Rakhine-Buddhist and, at the national level, ‘Burman’ society and culture.

On the other hand, for the Rohingya and those advocating for their rights, ‘they are descendants of Muslim settlers, with many ethnic roots, who arrived long before the British annexed Burma and Arakan (now called Rakhine) and their view is that the Rohingya should be accorded the status of a separate ethnic group in Myanmar’.

1982 Citizenship Law

While Myanmar’s original 1947 Constitution and the 1948 Union Citizenship Act did countenance the possibility of Rohingya citizenship, the 1962 military coup and a series of coordinated security actions against Rohingya populations in the late 1970s effectively institutionalised anti-Rohingya sentiment in Myanmar. The discriminatory application of a Citizenship Law introduced in 1982 subsequently deprived the Rohingya of any practical possibility of achieving full citizenship http://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliament/Parliamentary_Departments/Parliamentary_Library/pubs/rp/rp1314/Myanmar

This crisis is 100% the fault of Burma/Myanmar's governments since Independence from Britain. There were none of these problems under British rule. The newly independent Burma government rejected all the lessons of the British as 'foreign influence' and, subsequently, the country 'went to Hell in a hand basket'. If you want to go far enough back in history to put the blame, go back to Adam and Eve and 'original sin'. Stop blaming the British as they left Burma with its infrastructure and institutions intact and the Burmese could have maintained them.

[trogers]

I'm not challenging what may have happened 200 yrs ago. I'm putting it in context of time and degree. If a bird shat on my car windshield 10 years ago, should I get a shotgun and shoot all the birds in my neighborhood? I can picture how Thais and others would be eager to find a way to pin problems in 2015 to something that may have happened by a few farang in the early 19th century. It's called blame, and it's petty and small-minded, as I said earlier. If you want to encourage that sort of diversion, go ahead. Personally, I would encourage Thais and Burmese to look at the current reality and deal with it responsibly, and not try to divert and blame it on farang. It's time to replace the pink pampers with shorts, put aside the training wheels, and grow up.

The Butterfly Effect!

[rametindallas]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

[robblok]

I'm not challenging what may have happened 200 yrs ago. I'm putting it in context of time and degree. If a bird shat on my car windshield 10 years ago, should I get a shotgun and shoot all the birds in my neighborhood? I can picture how Thais and others would be eager to find a way to pin problems in 2015 to something that may have happened by a few farang in the early 19th century. It's called blame, and it's petty and small-minded, as I said earlier. If you want to encourage that sort of diversion, go ahead. Personally, I would encourage Thais and Burmese to look at the current reality and deal with it responsibly, and not try to divert and blame it on farang. It's time to replace the pink pampers with shorts, put aside the training wheels, and grow up.

So we agree that the Brits resettled a group of people into an area sparking racial tensions. Just like the Chinese did in Tibet. The Chinese brought in outsiders to replace native Tibetans and sparking violence and condemnation of the whole world. Its exactly the same scenario.

So yes I do put the blame for starting this on the Brits because the whole world puts the blame on China too.. and the situation is EXACTLY the same. Now you are right that this has happened a long time ago. However the Brits (and Dutch and French) did a similar thing in Afica where they made new countries not thinking of the borders before and ethnic groups that lived there. Thus creating many problems in Africa. This is something people agree on too.

Now do i think the Brits are 100% responsible no of course not and a lot of time has passed as you so rightly point out. However the blame is clear and they should at least take partial responsibility. This is not small minded.. this is reality and a sad reminder of how bad humans are (not pointing at the Brits here) because one would have thought that after 200 years they would have merged.

So yes I do feel that the Brits should put up some money and refugees, as there is direct relation between this and the troubles.

As for your windshield analogy .. it would sound better if you say.. a bird hit my windshield.. (bird was to blame initially) and I failed to fix the cracks and it broke eventually. That means the bird was to blame and you too.. for not fixing the problem.

I see this as shared responsibility and then you can argue about how much each is to blame.

[robblok]

I recently had a talk with some Thais on this subject and they pointed out to me they blamed the British for this and did not feel they should take them up. They said we did not create the problem the British did in the past why should be pay for it.

That was why I made the comment, I argued that I am for settlement of refugees in the region.. The Thais I spoke with were adamant not our problem created by the British let them solve it too.

Now thinking about it I can understand their points, this was created by an other foreign power who made good money from stuff like this and now they want others to pay for it.

I would say take them in and let the Brits pay for it (partly) and other countries too if you don't want them on your own doorstep. Settlement in the region is a good thing but should be financed not only by those in the region.

To add.. by attacking in the middle east we also created refugees.. and we are partly responsible for them (WE is EU and US) Create a war torn country. Then one should help the ones you hurt too not just bomb countries take their oil and screw them over.

I BLAME THE Vikings for all the blonde people in Britain when they invaded us and stole our farmland,I say send all those Danes back home,or can't we go backThat far?

Fair point.. but if what i posted is correct (the resettling part) as I just got it from a website and am not 100% sure. Then the Brits are responsible. Its quite a while back but still not as far back as your example. As I said they should take at least part of the responsibility as its quite clear then who created this mess for a large part.

But I get your point about going back.. but in this case its quite clear. But because its so long ago.. its shared responsibility where the Brits IMHO are far more responsible as that Thais who had nothing to do with it. So its clear who should pay at least part of it and it is not the Thais.

This was the point my Thai friends made and I can't argue with it, Thais are blameless, the Brits are not. They are at least partially responsible and should man up.

Blameless ? oh i wouldnt say that, been enough Thais benefiting from the human trafficking and slavery trade and helped kept it going for decades. And now the partys coming to an end they wish to pass the blame and share the cost of cleaning it up ? sure they do

We could go on all night going back decades or hundreds, even thousands of years for many cultures/countries wrongdoing, we live in the present not 1800, Thailand does little as it is to help their own minority groups, refuses them citizenship and has routinely made money and business out of trafficking people from all over the Asian region and continues to this day. Please dont tell us Thailand is blameless

Try the Thai concept of statute of limitations, Thai murderers and scam artists and wanted political criminals all come home after the 10 year time limit is up, they will get that. According to Thai law responsibility ends after 10 years, so ask them how after 200 years and having left Burma and the Asia region 70 years ago to home rule and management it makes Britain responsible today ? Not one Asian country or previous colony has even tried to address the issues during all that time until now or got together to do so, Isnt 70 years or so long enough to determine regional issues and responsibility ? apparently not when theres a cost involved. Double standards as usual.

Thailand has said many times other nations should keep out of its business, well trafficking, slavery and mass graves in holding camps most certainly is its business so why dosnt that ever get said when theres a financial cost to cleaning up involved ?

The trafficking is a good point and puts some part on the Thais but major part of it is still the Brits and of course both ethnic groups that are fighting (i assume both are to blame in various degrees). So Thailand still got a point that others are far more responsible as they are for this.

[robblok]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

[trogers]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

Why was the US not blamed on the Vietnamese boat people?

[robblok]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

Why was the US not blamed on the Vietnamese boat people?

Both sides were already in conflict before the Americans came. Hard to blame them in that case. You can only state they might have made it worse. I would blame them if there was no conflict to start with and they made one. It would be more fair to say that the US is responsible for the chaos in the middle east by going after Saddam. He was a tyrant and real bad.. but is this better ?

Here the Brits and China did the same thing, and the Chinese are blamed for it so the Brits should too. Because I believe also the Brit government has made statements on China's policy in Tibet.

[evadgib]

Blaming the Brits is very Magabe-esque. Spare a thought for their losses in your homeland cira 1944 & ask yourself if you'd be around today if they hadnt stepped up when Holland most needed them.

Edited May 20, 2015 by evadgib

[Thaddeus]

So yes I do feel that the Brits should put up some money and refugees,

There has to be some deep rooted reason why you hate the British so much.

[robblok]

So yes I do feel that the Brits should put up some money and refugees,

There has to be some deep rooted reason why you hate the British so much.

what hate seems you got a thin skin. I as a Dutch guy accept our past was not clean. Guess your pride does not let you look at the facts. I have nothing against the Brits at all. Some of my best friends are Brits. Seems if you cant win an argument you attack the messenger.

[robblok]

Blaming the Brits is very Magabe-esque. Spare a thought for their losses in your homeland cira 1944 & ask yourself if you'd be around today if they hadnt stepped up when Holland most needed them.

So that wipes out all the bad things they also did. Seems you guys cant take criticism.

Its good that they helped but it also was in their own interest.

Damm aint nationalism a bad thing closing your eyes for mistakes.

[FangFerang]

I do not care for a history lesson about causality while people are starving to death on boats where the captains and crews are (somehow and mysteriously) abandoning the ships with no Naval intervention to make arrests.

People are dying. They need food and a place to live.

It seems ASEAN is just waiting for them all to perish at sea.

Screw all this senseless blathering and posting the "really important arguments and opinions."

While we bicker, people are slaughtering each other just to have enough food for themselves tomorrow, and LOS (all of Asia) says -- "See, we are fighting human trafficking. Well, not making any arrests above the village head level, but we just cannot prosecute military officers under a junta. He he he..."

Edited May 20, 2015 by FangFerang

[evadgib]

Blaming the Brits is very Magabe-esque. Spare a thought for their losses in your homeland cira 1944 & ask yourself if you'd be around today if they hadnt stepped up when Holland most needed them.

So that wipes out all the bad things they also did. Seems you guys cant take criticism.

Its good that they helped but it also was in their own interest.

Damm aint nationalism a bad thing closing your eyes for mistakes.

You are surely trolling. How can boatloads of ii's in 2015 be blamed on events in the 19th century while excusing the crimes of the various govts/countries where blame actually lies...all of which having long since gained independance and in most cases spiralled downhill from greed, corruption and ethnic cleansing? Edited May 20, 2015 by evadgib

[robblok]

Blaming the Brits is very Magabe-esque. Spare a thought for their losses in your homeland cira 1944 & ask yourself if you'd be around today if they hadnt stepped up when Holland most needed them.

So that wipes out all the bad things they also did. Seems you guys cant take criticism.

Its good that they helped but it also was in their own interest.

Damm aint nationalism a bad thing closing your eyes for mistakes.

You are surely trolling. How can boatloads of ii's in 2015 be blamed on events in the 19th century while excusing the crimes of the various govts/countries where blame actually lies...all of which having long since gained independance and in most cases spiralled downhill from greed, corruption and ethnic cleansing?

Not trolling the problem was created by the Brits. However as i have stated b4 in a post if we have to divide blame id start with Burmese goverment and then the Brits.

Fact remains that their migration policy is the reason for the probelms now. Other fact is that the Burmese goverment should have handled this much better.

[evadgib]

You've been rumbled

[boomerangutang]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

The Rohinga aren't mentioned in your blame game. They're not just sheep being herded from Bangladesh and herded on to doomed boats. They're people. They make decisions. They spend money to try to better their lives - though it looks like they spent a lot of money foolishly and/or via coersion.

There are people who are victims, but that doesn't mean everything about their lives must scream 'victim!' If I was a Rohinga young man, I would try to get to a Burmese province where I could find a job, and try to make ends meet. Not easy, but less crazy than begging/borrowing/stealing 8 years wages to get on a decrepit crowded tub and head out toward a distant shore where the boat can't unload. Surely, Rohinga hear stories of the mass extortions of their brethren at foreign detention camps - and the deaths which ensue when extortions aren't paid. It would be interesting to speak with some of them to get their spin on the stories swirling around.

[rametindallas]

Blaming the Brits is very Magabe-esque. Spare a thought for their losses in your homeland cira 1944 & ask yourself if you'd be around today if they hadnt stepped up when Holland most needed them.

So that wipes out all the bad things they also did. Seems you guys cant take criticism.

Its good that they helped but it also was in their own interest.

Damm aint nationalism a bad thing closing your eyes for mistakes.

You are surely trolling. How can boatloads of ii's in 2015 be blamed on events in the 19th century while excusing the crimes of the various govts/countries where blame actually lies...all of which having long since gained independance and in most cases spiralled downhill from greed, corruption and ethnic cleansing?

Not trolling the problem was created by the Brits. However as i have stated b4 in a post if we have to divide blame id start with Burmese goverment and then the Brits.

Fact remains that their migration policy is the reason for the probelms now. Other fact is that the Burmese goverment should have handled this much better.

I would like some more information on how many Rohingya the British actually brought into Burma. From what I can find on the INTERNET, the Rohingya were in Burma long before the British and that the British brought in Indians from Bengal State to help with administration. Those would number in the hundreds and not thousands, as they were not brought in as laborers. There was never a problem with any of these people under British rule. Unless you can show me the British imported more foreigners into Burma than the present day British government has brought into Britain, I think you are exaggerating the British part in all this. Britain has imported more foreigners (including Muslims) into Britain, itself, than it ever imported into Burma and yet, the British are not kicking out so-called foreigners but the Burma government is. Focus on Burma's government. This evil is being perpetrated by the Burmese and the Buddhist community in Burma without any assistance from the British.

There is/was a predominately Rohingya state in Burma called Rakine where the Burmese Buddhists have coexisted with those, mostly Muslim, Rohingya for longer than 1,000 years. It is only deep seated racism among the Burma that allowed an isolated incident in 2012 to snowball into the crisis it is today. The British did not teach the Burmese to hate Muslims or suggest they put all the Rohingya in camps and tell them to leave. The blame rests so much on Burma that any British part of the blame is less than 1%. I mean you can blame Britain for the repression of the Aboriginal Peoples of the Australian Continent for introducing convicts or you can blame the British for the decimation of Native American Peoples for bringing in colonists to the North American Continent. How far back in history do you want to go in this blame game? Just because you admit that the Dutch are not blameless doesn't give you the right to point at Britain and say they are responsible for the current crisis because of something they may or may not have done almost two hundred years ago. Britain is not the Britain of even 50 years ago. Stop putting collective guilt on todays' population of Brits. You've made your point that you blame the British; perhaps it's time to just let it go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_State#History

[rametindallas]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

The Rohinga aren't mentioned in your blame game. They're not just sheep being herded from Bangladesh and herded on to doomed boats. They're people. They make decisions. They spend money to try to better their lives - though it looks like they spent a lot of money foolishly and/or via coersion.

There are people who are victims, but that doesn't mean everything about their lives must scream 'victim!' If I was a Rohinga young man, I would try to get to a Burmese province where I could find a job, and try to make ends meet. Not easy, but less crazy than begging/borrowing/stealing 8 years wages to get on a decrepit crowded tub and head out toward a distant shore where the boat can't unload. Surely, Rohinga hear stories of the mass extortions of their brethren at foreign detention camps - and the deaths which ensue when extortions aren't paid. It would be interesting to speak with some of them to get their spin on the stories swirling around.

It is clear that you didn't bother to educate yourself about the conditions that brought this humanitarian crisis on. I have put several links already explaining how the Burmese government used an isolated incident in 2012 to drive the Rohingya people out of their villages, deprive them of their land and livelihoods, and put them into detention camps and tell them to leave Burma (a country they have lived in for more than a thousand years). They have made it impossible for any Rohingya to work anywhere in Burma. At this point, if they have any money saved, they purchase a spot on a boat leaving Burma; no matter what the dangers. It's a little more than 'bettering their lives' as the Burmese government is making it impossible for them to stay in Burma.

Surely, Rohinga hear stories of the mass extortions of their brethren at foreign detention camps - and the deaths which ensue when extortions aren't paid.

And just how would the get this information? The Burmese government wouldn't want them to know as it would deter them from leaving and since they are living in refugee camps is it easy for the Burmese government to control access to information. Please go on the INTERNET and look up the words, Rohingya, Rakine, Burmese refugee camps.

[Thaddeus]

Its good that they helped but it also was in their own interest.

Damm aint nationalism a bad thing closing your eyes for mistakes.

You are surely trolling. How can boatloads of ii's in 2015 be blamed on events in the 19th century while excusing the crimes of the various govts/countries where blame actually lies...all of which having long since gained independance and in most cases spiralled downhill from greed, corruption and ethnic cleansing?

Not trolling the problem was created by the Brits. However as i have stated b4 in a post if we have to divide blame id start with Burmese goverment and then the Brits.

Fact remains that their migration policy is the reason for the probelms now. Other fact is that the Burmese goverment should have handled this much better.

I would like some more information on how many Rohingya the British actually brought into Burma. From what I can find on the INTERNET, the Rohingya were in Burma long before the British and that the British brought in Indians from Bengal State to help with administration. Those would number in the hundreds and not thousands, as they were not brought in as laborers. There was never a problem with any of these people under British rule. Unless you can show me the British imported more foreigners into Burma than the present day British government has brought into Britain, I think you are exaggerating the British part in all this. Britain has imported more foreigners (including Muslims) into Britain, itself, than it ever imported into Burma and yet, the British are not kicking out so-called foreigners but the Burma government is. Focus on Burma's government. This evil is being perpetrated by the Burmese and the Buddhist community in Burma without any assistance from the British.

There is/was a predominately Rohingya state in Burma called Rakine where the Burmese Buddhists have coexisted with those, mostly Muslim, Rohingya for longer than 1,000 years. It is only deep seated racism among the Burma that allowed an isolated incident in 2012 to snowball into the crisis it is today. The British did not teach the Burmese to hate Muslims or suggest they put all the Rohingya in camps and tell them to leave. The blame rests so much on Burma that any British part of the blame is less than 1%. I mean you can blame Britain for the repression of the Aboriginal Peoples of the Australian Continent for introducing convicts or you can blame the British for the decimation of Native American Peoples for bringing in colonists to the North American Continent. How far back in history do you want to go in this blame game? Just because you admit that the Dutch are not blameless doesn't give you the right to point at Britain and say they are responsible for the current crisis because of something they may or may not have done almost two hundred years ago. Britain is not the Britain of even 50 years ago. Stop putting collective guilt on todays' population of Brits. You've made your point that you blame the British; perhaps it's time to just let it go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_State#History

Thank you.

[boomerangutang]

ASEAN should IMMEDIATELY form a committee. That would be real action. /sarc

What ASEAN should really do is confront Burma on its policy of denying Rohingya any civil rights, much less the rights to Burmese citizenship. The Burmese government has herded them into camps and told them to LEAVE. ASEAN needs to 'grow a pair'. There is plenty of room in Burma for these people and no need for any to leave except for the actions of the Burmese government.

Agree the blame game should not stop from taking action. I do feel that the solution is in pressuring the Burmese government. The majority of the blame certainly rests there. I would say Burmese government first, Brits and then Thais in that order of blame.

The Rohinga aren't mentioned in your blame game. They're not just sheep being herded from Bangladesh and herded on to doomed boats. They're people. They make decisions. They spend money to try to better their lives - though it looks like they spent a lot of money foolishly and/or via coersion.

There are people who are victims, but that doesn't mean everything about their lives must scream 'victim!' If I was a Rohinga young man, I would try to get to a Burmese province where I could find a job, and try to make ends meet. Not easy, but less crazy than begging/borrowing/stealing 8 years wages to get on a decrepit crowded tub and head out toward a distant shore where the boat can't unload. Surely, Rohinga hear stories of the mass extortions of their brethren at foreign detention camps - and the deaths which ensue when extortions aren't paid. It would be interesting to speak with some of them to get their spin on the stories swirling around.

It is clear that you didn't bother to educate yourself about the conditions that brought this humanitarian crisis on. I have put several links already explaining how the Burmese government used an isolated incident in 2012 to drive the Rohingya people out of their villages, deprive them of their land and livelihoods, and put them into detention camps and tell them to leave Burma (a country they have lived in for more than a thousand years). They have made it impossible for any Rohingya to work anywhere in Burma. At this point, if they have any money saved, they purchase a spot on a boat leaving Burma; no matter what the dangers. It's a little more than 'bettering their lives' as the Burmese government is making it impossible for them to stay in Burma.

Surely, Rohinga hear stories of the mass extortions of their brethren at foreign detention camps - and the deaths which ensue when extortions aren't paid.

And just how would the get this information? The Burmese government wouldn't want them to know as it would deter them from leaving and since they are living in refugee camps is it easy for the Burmese government to control access to information. Please go on the INTERNET and look up the words, Rohingya, Rakine, Burmese refugee camps.

I think we agree on most things re; this debacle, but differ on some details. Rametindallas asks 'How do they get this information?'

Answer: various ways. For starters, many of the hundreds of Rohinga kept in detention in Thailand are coerced in to asking more money from their remaining relatives in Burma. Secondly: at least one or a few Rohinga (out of tens of thousands) have likely managed to return to their home villages.

As for traveling from one part of Burma to another. Granted, it's not easy, but for a single man, not impossible. Even me, with my blond hair and 6' height, have traveled within Burma and occasionally dodged/skirted around internal border guardposts on roads and highways.

[rametindallas]

I think we agree on most things re; this debacle, but differ on some details. Rametindallas asks 'How do they get this information?'I

Answer: various ways. For starters, many of the hundreds of Rohinga kept in detention in Thailand are coerced in to asking more money from their remaining relatives in Burma. Secondly: at least one or a few Rohinga (out of tens of thousands) have likely managed to return to their home villages.

As for traveling from one part of Burma to another. Granted, it's not easy, but for a single man, not impossible. Even me, with my blond hair and 6' height, have traveled within Burma and occasionally dodged/skirted around internal border guardposts on roads and highways.

likely managed to return to their home villages.

What villages? The Burma Buddhists are systematically burning down their villages and the Burma government is herding them into refugee concentration camps. They are treated as illegal, economic migrants in the country of their ancestors. They have been told they can't stay in Burma anymore even though their families have live there for hundreds of years. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos+of+burned+Rohingya+villages+in+Burma&go=Submit&qs=n&form=QBIRMH&pq=photos+of+burned+rohingya+villages+in+burma&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=#a

The vast majority do not know what awaits them in Thailand or wherever they wind up. The Burma government would not let foreign aid agencies help the Muslim population after Typhoon Nardis. http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/14/burma-cyclone-threatens-displaced-muslims

''Instead of addressing the problem, Burma's leaders seem intent on keeping the Rohingya segregated in camps rather than planning for them to return to their homes.''

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/burmas-rulers-repress-rohingya-rights-nightmare-17798/

If you were a Muslim that had escaped Burma, would you voluntarily go back to live in a refugee camp in Burma? Would the Burmese government even let you back? Remember they consider the Muslims as illegal immigrants and deny them the right to stay in Burma.

Rohingya: the most persecuted refugees in the world

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/35290/

Yet if the Rohingya imagined that their plight couldn’t get any worse, they were wrong. About 150,000 of an estimated 1.1m Rohingya were pushed into refugee camps, mainly around state capital Sittwe, after two bouts of vicious ethnic cleansing by Rakhine nationalists in 2012 http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21651744-poverty-politics-and-despair-are-forcing-thousands-rohingya-flee-myanmar-authorities-remain

[boomerangutang]

I think we agree on most things re; this debacle, but differ on some details. Rametindallas asks 'How do they get this information?'I

Answer: various ways. For starters, many of the hundreds of Rohinga kept in detention in Thailand are coerced in to asking more money from their remaining relatives in Burma. Secondly: at least one or a few Rohinga (out of tens of thousands) have likely managed to return to their home villages.

As for traveling from one part of Burma to another. Granted, it's not easy, but for a single man, not impossible. Even me, with my blond hair and 6' height, have traveled within Burma and occasionally dodged/skirted around internal border guardposts on roads and highways.

likely managed to return to their home villages.

What villages? The Burma Buddhists are systematically burning down their villages and the Burma government is herding them into refugee concentration camps. They are treated as illegal, economic migrants in the country of their ancestors. They have been told they can't stay in Burma anymore even though their families have live there for hundreds of years. http://www.bing.com/images/search?q=photos+of+burned+Rohingya+villages+in+Burma&go=Submit&qs=n&form=QBIRMH&pq=photos+of+burned+rohingya+villages+in+burma&sc=0-0&sp=-1&sk=#a

The vast majority do not know what awaits them in Thailand or wherever they wind up. The Burma government would not let foreign aid agencies help the Muslim population after Typhoon Nardis. http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/05/14/burma-cyclone-threatens-displaced-muslims

''Instead of addressing the problem, Burma's leaders seem intent on keeping the Rohingya segregated in camps rather than planning for them to return to their homes.''

http://phuketwan.com/tourism/burmas-rulers-repress-rohingya-rights-nightmare-17798/

If you were a Muslim that had escaped Burma, would you voluntarily go back to live in a refugee camp in Burma? Would the Burmese government even let you back? Remember they consider the Muslims as illegal immigrants and deny them the right to stay in Burma.

Rohingya: the most persecuted refugees in the world

http://www.amnesty.org.au/refugees/comments/35290/

Yet if the Rohingya imagined that their plight couldn’t get any worse, they were wrong. About 150,000 of an estimated 1.1m Rohingya were pushed into refugee camps, mainly around state capital Sittwe, after two bouts of vicious ethnic cleansing by Rakhine nationalists in 2012 http://www.economist.com/news/asia/21651744-poverty-politics-and-despair-are-forcing-thousands-rohingya-flee-myanmar-authorities-remain

Yes, they're victims. But they're not 100% victims in every sense of the word. If they're in concentration camps (as you allege), how do they get out to board ships? ....and how do they raise lots of money per passenger? And many somehow scrape more bundles of money later, when they're extorted in Thailand.

I realize they're suppressed and miserable. But they're not completely powerless - until, perhaps they're on those rusting hulks with no food and water - floating in the sea.

The history of people in the world has many tales of oppressed people. Most often those histories involve mass killings on Biblical scales. These are (and have been) very tough times for Rohinga in southwestern Burma, but they're not 100% helpless.

[robblok]

I would like some more information on how many Rohingya the British actually brought into Burma. From what I can find on the INTERNET, the Rohingya were in Burma long before the British and that the British brought in Indians from Bengal State to help with administration. Those would number in the hundreds and not thousands, as they were not brought in as laborers. There was never a problem with any of these people under British rule. Unless you can show me the British imported more foreigners into Burma than the present day British government has brought into Britain, I think you are exaggerating the British part in all this. Britain has imported more foreigners (including Muslims) into Britain, itself, than it ever imported into Burma and yet, the British are not kicking out so-called foreigners but the Burma government is. Focus on Burma's government. This evil is being perpetrated by the Burmese and the Buddhist community in Burma without any assistance from the British.

There is/was a predominately Rohingya state in Burma called Rakine where the Burmese Buddhists have coexisted with those, mostly Muslim, Rohingya for longer than 1,000 years. It is only deep seated racism among the Burma that allowed an isolated incident in 2012 to snowball into the crisis it is today. The British did not teach the Burmese to hate Muslims or suggest they put all the Rohingya in camps and tell them to leave. The blame rests so much on Burma that any British part of the blame is less than 1%. I mean you can blame Britain for the repression of the Aboriginal Peoples of the Australian Continent for introducing convicts or you can blame the British for the decimation of Native American Peoples for bringing in colonists to the North American Continent. How far back in history do you want to go in this blame game? Just because you admit that the Dutch are not blameless doesn't give you the right to point at Britain and say they are responsible for the current crisis because of something they may or may not have done almost two hundred years ago. Britain is not the Britain of even 50 years ago. Stop putting collective guilt on todays' population of Brits. You've made your point that you blame the British; perhaps it's time to just let it go.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rakhine_State#History

Sure the point is made, in WIKI and other sites it looked like mass immigration. I am not sure about exact numbers just like you.

I do get members telling me I hate Brits that is quite childlike, if I don't agree with things Americans did that does not make me hate Americans (some seem to think I hate Americans too). I get a bit tired of the nationalistic feelings here. Fact is that this started with an action from the Brits. And yes you can blame the immigrants into the US for decimation of the natives. Damm they even gave out infected blankets to wipe out the Indians.

Just that some time has passed does not mean there is no blame, but people seem to think I blame the current Brits for the mistakes of their forefathers. I don't, I blame those who did it but some responsibility should be taken and never forget the riches the Brits, Dutch, French, Spanish got from their colonies. So I see it as fair that they should help when things are clearly started by them.

Also if you study history you know that what the French, Dutch, English, Germans did in Africa (putting borders at random and by doing so setting up ethnic groups against each other) causes a lot of trouble now. We always act like we are so good as foreigners but we did plenty wrong too.

No I don't hold the current people responsible, just like I don't feel responsible for what we did in Indonesia but at the same time I feel it justified that my government helps and pays up. That is similar to how I think about the Brits. But the first one to blame is the Burmese government and then the Brits and then the Thais.

But I guess its better never to post on sensitive topics like this because small minded members automatically seem to think I hate "insert nationality"

i am quite mild and if you compare my on facts based post with what is posted here on a day to day bases about the Thais one would call my remarks needle pricks compared to the sledge hammer one uses on the Thais. If Thais ever became aware of what was posted here we would all be kicked out of the country. (not talking about valid points here but the other bashing that goes on)