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Rohingya are illegal migrants, not refugees: Thai Army Chief


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Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting. Boats full of human beings are drifting out at sea desperate and hungry and some of the attitude is "so what, they are Muslims they deserve it" you do know it is the Rohingya that are victims of brutal prejudice in Burma right? Think before you Start spitting your ignorant, racist bile. And Yes I would take them into the uk where despite similar attitudes multi-culturism works.

How about you quit spitting your Liberal - Leftist know it all malarkey on to everyone... I suppose you are sending hefty donations to help these refugees aren't you?

Here you are again with your labels. Just know that you are wishing the worst on boats full of people that have done nothing to you. That makes you the same as the terrorists wishing the worst on the west. You are a terrible human being.

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Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting. Boats full of human beings are drifting out at sea desperate and hungry and some of the attitude is "so what, they are Muslims they deserve it" you do know it is the Rohingya that are victims of brutal prejudice in Burma right? Think before you Start spitting your ignorant, racist bile. And Yes I would take them into the uk where despite similar attitudes multi-culturism works.

How about you quit spitting your Liberal - Leftist know it all malarkey on to everyone... I suppose you are sending hefty donations to help these refugees aren't you?

Here you are again with your labels. Just know that you are wishing the worst on boats full of people that have done nothing to you. That makes you the same as the terrorists wishing the worst on the west. You are a terrible human being.

Don't be such a drama queen he is NOT in the same boat, ha ha, as terrorists that's just hysterical and insulting. Nobody wishes them the worst, but they are illegal immigrants who need a boot back to where they came from before a flood becomes a tidal wave. Let them go to an Islamic country, nobody else cares or wants them, they will just be an expensive millstone for decades.

Edited by dragonfly94
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Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting. Boats full of human beings are drifting out at sea desperate and hungry and some of the attitude is "so what, they are Muslims they deserve it" you do know it is the Rohingya that are victims of brutal prejudice in Burma right? Think before you Start spitting your ignorant, racist bile. And Yes I would take them into the uk where despite similar attitudes multi-culturism works.

How about you quit spitting your Liberal - Leftist know it all malarkey on to everyone... I suppose you are sending hefty donations to help these refugees aren't you?

Here you are again with your labels. Just know that you are wishing the worst on boats full of people that have done nothing to you. That makes you the same as the terrorists wishing the worst on the west. You are a terrible human being.

Don't be such a drama queen he is NOT in the same boat, ha ha, as terrorists that's just hysterical and insulting. Nobody wishes them the worst, but they are illegal immigrants who need a boot back to where they came from before a flood becomes a tidal wave. Let them go to an Islamic country, nobody else cares or wants them, they will just be an expensive millstone for decades.

Talking about fellow human beings like they are some sort of herd of diseased cattle. "Ah well <deleted> em" eh? What a pleasant attiude you have.

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Many here suggest to send the Rohingya back to their country.

This is not do easy. They don't have a country.

They're Muslims, yes. It's funny that exactly the same people that usually insist on a strict separation of nation from religion now suddenly detect Islam as an adequate national benchmark for the Rohingya.

The right way imho would be to give them a separate state and assist this state in economic development. The emigrants might be needed to build up a Rakhine state, it's usually not the stupid part of the people that manage to get on a boat.

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For all those T.V armchair experts who jump blindly blaming Thailand for this, IT IS a problem that needs Burma to take responsibility for. As much as it is a human disaster and absolutely atrocious, one cannot put the blame squarely on Thailand for refusing to accept them. Thailand has already hundreds of thousand of Burmese people, some of them Rohingyas living in the Kingdom. My maid is a Burmese and she has a decent life, proper papers and a the protection. She is grateful for the Kingdom for her lifestyle that she has.

Look at Australia who has also declined to accept them and will turn them back. Why not then blame Australia also. Frankly, as sad as it is, blaming any country or nation for this, while Burma quietly sits there, shows pure ignorance...

That is a fair comment, but you need to acknowledge that Thailand started to take advantage of the situation and profited from it. Read the 2013 Reuters report. If they had at that point said, "Hey, this is wrong", that message would have gotten up to Burma and it would have stemmed the flow to some degree. All the countries involved need to pony up and solve this once and for all.

You are going to have to try to differentiate between Thailand and the few criminal Thais who have joined with the trafficking gangs to take advantage of these people.

The vast majority of the 64 million Thai people have taken no part in this and the country has in fact lost heavily from the actions of the criminals, and Thailand has recently been at the forefront of stopping the trafficking and bringing the local traffickers to justice.

It is this action that has forced the traffickers to abandon Thailand as a transit point and brought about the unfortunate but predictable consequence of boats that were on the sea at the time now stuck there.

There is no arguing that this should never have gone on so long and that officials in Thailand as well as other Asian countries have been involved and these officials need to be dealt with harshly whoever they are.

As has been correctly written the solution is not to take them all in regardless but to treat them for what they are, for instance, if what I read is correct a third or more of those on boats are from Bangladesh and they are not refugees but economic migrants and should be treated as such. Whether the Rohingya are refugees or not is a moot point but to accept them without question can only encourage others.

There is also the distrust of Muslim aspect which Islam has brought on itself.

First post that hits the button thumbsup.gif

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What claptrap , the Thai Army Chief talks ,talk about an out of touch moron, anyone escaping persecution from a country that treats them like sh!!t, is a refugee , anyone looking for a job is migrant , there is a big distinction General , Thailand's human rights record is sub par at the best of times, the Thai Army Chief helps to re-enforces this opinion, Thailand should be doing 2 things, help the Rohingya people and along with the rest of ASEAN start attacking the Burmese government or take a look at your principals and kick Burma out of ASEAN.coffee1.gif

Well if all they are doing is trying to escape persecution in Burma then why don't they go to Bangladesh or China? Absolutely no need for a boat to get there.

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I just don't understand why all those moslim immigrants from Burma and or Africa don't appeal to their "rich brother countries" such as Saoudi Arabia...The richest in the world!!! Why don't they interfer to help THEIR " moslim brothers"...??? Why it all has to come from Europe and /or Thailand...???

I like the Aussie stance ..... If you don't have a valid visa, you cannot enter Australia. You can only obtain a visa in your home country. You cannot obtain an entry visa in Australia.

Without a doubt, Australia will see less and less of the fashionable "boat people" (aka .. illegal immigrants) arriving on its shores and within its territorial waters. Ask yourself why?

The answer is quite simple ... the Aussies will not let them in. Any country that mamby-pambys with these illegal and un-visad migrants will soon find itself inundated with more and more of the same. The real problem is at the source not the end. Fix the problem and all will be well.

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Finally, a chance for the "We have the solution for everything holier than thou mighty Farang!!" ... to walk the walk!

May I kindly inquire why I am not seeing a single suggestion that they are picked up and transported to ... your country of origin?

Oh my, it must be such a luxury to be far outside the range of the tiny boats out on that wide ocean.

It must be so easy to just "call and raise" .. when no one will ever ask to see YOUR cards.

Funny though, get one of you in a pub, and ask about the immigrants in your countries, and you wanna "Nuke em' all"

I do not endorse what is happening. i am not in favor of women and children suffering this way. I do not know the solution.

Oh, wait .. I DO know the solution.

Send the American, British and Australian navies to find, rescue and send these people to the USA, UK and Oz.

What's that? Not a good idea?

Why do you think that the American, British and Australian navies should be responsible for something that is happening in S.E. Asia?

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The Burmese Rohingya come from a community that has 1000 years of history in that part of the country.

Not all of them, look a few posts up. Some 500,000 came during the 1970s from what today is Bangladesh. Edited by pmugghc
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Amazing how people fleeing their home country, not out of choice, but because of persecution, terror and intolerance, can stir up so much hate and religious bigotry in others.

Economic migrants, fine, send them home.

However those who genuinely have reason to fear persecution should be helped.

In either case though, when people are found adrift at sea and/or in danger they should be helped and allowed entry to countries.

To ignore their plight is the worst possible option.

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Many men, women and children may die while trying to escape persecution. Thailand and other nations in se Asia should be ashamed of themselves.

then why dont they go to a muslim islamic country ( malaysia ) and not a buddist country, all you liberalist fools are aware that wherever muslims go they spread only hatred and try to impliment their laws and ways on other cultures , when they have the majority we will all be done. these people started the trouble in burma and created the trouble for themselves , good on the burmese bhuddist people for not tolerating it ( wish we were same in europe ) .

Biggest nonsense I read so far from someone who obviously hasn't much idea of history.

The Rohingas where in Rakinen state well before the Burmese invaded and colonialised

them nearly a 1000 years ago and Burmese Buddhists settled there.

Suppose, first the colonial powers went to all the countries who were "inferior" to them,

Christianize and civilize them in order to steal their resources, then send the whole country

back in to the middle ages, making everyone believe, it has nothing to do with us.

You mean religion is the root of all evil? i,m close to agreeing wink.png

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Many men, women and children may die while trying to escape persecution. Thailand and other nations in se Asia should be ashamed of themselves.

They should be particularly ashamed in the face of recent news that the Philippines, one of the least endowed and most over-populated nations in SE Asia, has offer sanctuary to these unfortunate people.

A Google of the Philippines' response to the Nazi-inspired diaspora of the Jews before WWII gives some context to this generous nations' response.

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Serious question,

As a brit if i were to float onto the shores of thailand in an un seaworthy tub without a baht to scratch my ass with, minus a passport/ visa or any form of id, no family to contact, what would happen apart from the obvious lockup in IDC for an undetermined period?

I suspect i might get a couple of visits from a malcolm as that is his job but the reality is i would be left there to rot, I know for a fact british citizens have spent years in IDC or even local police station lockups with little or no consular assistance, many have died there,

In hindsight i see very little difference with the rohingya and their plieght.

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Finally, a chance for the "We have the solution for everything holier than thou mighty Farang!!" ... to walk the walk!

May I kindly inquire why I am not seeing a single suggestion that they are picked up and transported to ... your country of origin?

Oh my, it must be such a luxury to be far outside the range of the tiny boats out on that wide ocean.

It must be so easy to just "call and raise" .. when no one will ever ask to see YOUR cards.

Funny though, get one of you in a pub, and ask about the immigrants in your countries, and you wanna "Nuke em' all"

I do not endorse what is happening. i am not in favor of women and children suffering this way. I do not know the solution.

Oh, wait .. I DO know the solution.

Send the American, British and Australian navies to find, rescue and send these people to the USA, UK and Oz.

What's that? Not a good idea?

Fine by me. Do they want to go there?

Why not China? Russia? Iran? Or Syria?

Actually, Syria is host to over 1'200'000 refugees, which amounts to 1 refugee per 17 natives.

Whilst France (1 in 310), the UK (1 in 319), USA (1 in 706), Australia (1 in 1026), or Spain (1 in 1086)

together, offer sanctuary to just over 680'000 refugees.

Considering, most suffering for ordinary people, have arisen after the old (and modern) colonial powers

stirred the shit for their own economical and political gains, we are not taking half as much responsibilities

as we should do. Contrary, we shift the blame to others and just as with the Rohingya, they get chastised

and blamed for what ever problems we have.

Off course it's easy for all those fat bellied, well feed ignorants to blame others. As long our economy

isn't threatened, as long there is cold beer in the fridge and the shrimps on the bbq, we're fine. Not

our problem.

Edited by JoeLing
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I've seen a lot of anti-Rohingya bias on social media from the Thai community over the last few days. It's disconcerting to see how many Thais support the push back policy, with arguments ranging from cost, not Thailand's problem, to outright distain for Muslim Rohingya. Worrying times for humanity indeed..

wai2.gif

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Bangladesh receives billions of dollars annually in aid from well meaning, predominantly Christian western countries. This money rarely goes to improve the lot of the millions of oppressed people living in squalor in that country. TV readers should know that corruption in Thailand is child's play compared to the cold blooded corruption in Bangla and most countries that are oppressed by the same 'religion'. None of these countries lift a finger to look after their own. Unfortunately, as in the UK, most of these economic migrants are not prepared to adopt the ways of their new country and even demand that their religion and laws be taken up by that country.

Thailand has been fighting against Islamic dissidents in the south for years and has lost thousands of people, it can ill afford to accept thousands of new Islamic people who will refuse to fit in to the Thai culture. It has enough problems dealing with the economic migrants from other SEA countries.

The world should demand that Bangladesh and Burma (Libya and others) provide for their own people or lose the vast amount of aid that is given and immediately shipped to Switzerland every year.

Agree with you, but it does not alter the fact that those in peril require rescue.

It's called compassion and without it, we cease to be human.

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Amazing how people fleeing their home country, not out of choice, but because of persecution, terror and intolerance, can stir up so much hate and religious bigotry in others.

Economic migrants, fine, send them home.

However those who genuinely have reason to fear persecution should be helped.

In either case though, when people are found adrift at sea and/or in danger they should be helped and allowed entry to countries.

To ignore their plight is the worst possible option.

Thank you.

Yes, yes, yes.

If we don't help, we are not human.

It's very simple and way beyond politics at this stage.

And to the Muslim haters on here, I don't think anybody, of any religion, whose life has been saved will show you hatred, they will show you gratitude and thanks.

Perhaps this is the way forwards.

Pull a drowning Thai by his hair into your boat, he won't say " don't touch my head..."

He will say thanks, and be your friend for life.

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Amazing how people fleeing their home country, not out of choice, but because of persecution, terror and intolerance, can stir up so much hate and religious bigotry in others.

Economic migrants, fine, send them home.

However those who genuinely have reason to fear persecution should be helped.

In either case though, when people are found adrift at sea and/or in danger they should be helped and allowed entry to countries.

To ignore their plight is the worst possible option.

Thank you.

Yes, yes, yes.

If we don't help, we are not human.

It's very simple and way beyond politics at this stage.

And to the Muslim haters on here, I don't think anybody, of any religion, whose life has been saved will show you hatred, they will show you gratitude and thanks.

Perhaps this is the way forwards.

Pull a drowning Thai by his hair into your boat, he won't say " don't touch my head..."

He will say thanks, and be your friend for life.

But phil, that would infer a modicum of human compassion for the welfare of strangers...whistling.gif

But if more people were like you - we wouldn't be in this bloody pickle.

You get it - that attitude=altitude

Keep up the good workthumbsup.gif phil

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All this touchy - feely stuff ignores facts:

When you introduce any refugee/illegal immigrant ( call them what you will ) population into another culture, you are going to have problems.

A case in point - a considerable number of Somalis were allowed to settle in Victoria, Australia. A complete moron of a Police Commissioner, operating on spin, declared Somalis were under-represented in the crime statistics. The opposite was the true situation, due to the lawlessness in Somalia.

Another case in point - a Muslim community in Melbourne demanding segregated swimming sessions for their women in public baths to preserve their modesty. The authorities surrendered. My response - if you want segregated facilities, pay for them yourself.

I really would like to see these passionate refugee advocates accept the same refugees into their own households, so they can put their money where their mouth is.

Much better if the refugees devote their energies to gaining fair treatment in the country of their origin.

"Much better if the refugees devote their energies to gaining fair treatment in the country of their origin."

​What energies? All their energies are expended fighting poverty and trying to survive, eviction, persecution, forced from their homes, no basic human rights, medical help, no citizenship and now drownings. bazza40 has all these rights by sheer good luck but is unwilling to extend those righrs to others because of his general distrust of other peoples and cultures and inability to empathize or identity with people that are nor like him. You see what you want to see and what suits your prejudice mate. Open your eyes and heart if you have one.

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The Burmese Rohingya come from a community that has 1000 years of history in that part of the country.

Not all of them, look a few posts up. Some 500,000 came during the 1970s from what today is Bangladesh.

Possibly so, however the vast majority didn't.

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I just don't understand why all those moslim immigrants from Burma and or Africa don't appeal to their "rich brother countries" such as Saoudi Arabia...The richest in the world!!! Why don't they interfer to help THEIR " moslim brothers"...??? Why it all has to come from Europe and /or Thailand...???

As I wrote on another posting:

Do you KNOW any Muslims? I do and because they come from so many diverse countries and cultures they are all so different. Most can't speak each other's languages, can't understand each others cultures and most I know are horrified by the jihadists. I have a Muslim neighbor who tells me he doesn't know any Arabs. "Who are these guys?" he tells me.The only thing that they have in common is Islam, and there are many interpretations of that as there are in all religions. More Muslims kill each other than any other religion.They are at war while we speak. They have to settle their own problems. While many terrible things happen you have to be careful of headlines.turning into generalizations that sell newspapers because it panders to peoples fears and prejudice. Most Muslims just want to take care of their families and get on with their lives.

This tragedy is not about Islam and to keep talking about that is to detract from the problem, provide an excuse not to help and talk about them as if they are non-people.

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They are illegal immigrants unless they apply for asylum for reasons of persecution. That is the way it works everywhere .... The UK ... the EU ... the USA ... everywhere.

Though I sympathize with their plight, I understand the reluctance of a non Muslim country to bring in Muslim immigrants. The behavior of Muslim minorities in the Philippines, Bali, Europe, the USA, the UK, Australia (need I go on?) lean towards violence and extremism inside the host country.

The social contract we make if we are an expat or immigrant is to abide by the laws of the land and respect the social and cultural norms of the host country. Not all Muslims, but fundamentalist Muslims believe Islam and Sharia supersede the laws and social norms of the country they choose to live in. Furthermore, this is encouraged and funded by Islamist in other Islamic countries.

one of the most sensible posts I've seen on the subject so far ( and mine ) .... totally agree .....

Your ignorant racism demonstrates your intellectual powers, especially in the light that The Philippines have announced that they will take them for humanitarian reasons...........

Pushing people out to sea in unseaworthy vessels or denying people assistance when they are in distress is a crime with a capital F and it is astonishing that there are people here who try to defend it.

With some of the views expressed here, it's not surprising that violence begets violence.

While I agree with you that it's a crime not to offer these distressed people assistance I don't understand your statement that violence begets violence, as no one has suggested using violence towards these people. That statement is just nonsense.

While the crux of your post is sensible argument you spoil it by starting off insulting people who have a different view/opinion to you by claiming they're intellectually inferior. Why can't you just debate the subject and if they are indeed inferior to you, you could change their view with sensible argument. Schoolboy insults will not change anyone's mind.

Violence has already happened to these people, that's what he means

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Mobile Content ,we in Australia dont need anymore bludging welfare seeking illegals in this country ...

Send them back to where they came from , we dont need them bring their bad habits and islamic terror to our shores .

There is already to many of them here now .

What an ambassador for Australia! Another one who doesn't realize you cannot send them back to where they come from when they have been evicted from their own country.

Yes and we know how well Australians have treated their own indigenous people in the past,they were sport and were shot like dogs. I wonder with all your worldly wisdom you could ever reach the level of Tan Le !

170px-TanTTLe.jpgTan Le entered Australia as a refugee in 1982 and was named Young Australian of the Year in 1998.

Yeah, right. So I'll see your Tan Le and raise you one Bilal Skaf - the Lebanese multiple rapist, remember him?

I would assume Tan Le was named Young Australian of the year for good reason, although it could also be a PC exercise.

Perhaps you can explain why several ethnic groups in Australia are over-represented in crime statistics, and then why the hell we should continue to accept them under the cloak of refugee status.

You think this is a game of cards? the only gamble here is with people's lives. Just because there some miscreants spoil it for others does not mean we should shut the doors on people who have great potential to enhance a country. But I think you would close the doors on the basis of the criminal you name. Glass half empty or glass half full? The difference between you and me I think.

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As callous as it seems, it would appear that all countries are in favor of giving them food, water & medicine and sufficient fuel so they can return to where they came from, be that Myanmar or Bangladesh. It was mentioned on the news that some Myanmar migrants were telling UNHCR officials they were Rohingya refugees so they would qualify for aid assistance.

And now the Phillipines has announced the same will apply should any boats arrive in it's waters.

It is the correct thing to do as letting them in would send the message that any arrivals by boat will be taken care of. This would have 100,s of thousands turn up in days. This is simply not the solution.

As shown by Thailand and other countries ... assist and help them in a humanitarian way with food, water & all the essentials.

Next step would be to go after the smugglers and kill them. This will stop further boats coming and also assist those in need now.

Correct thing to do is to rescue them.

They are refugees they have been burnt off their land, murdered ect in Myanmar.

Letting them stay or any other Boat people around the globe is another issue, maybe they should be put into a United Nations Hercules transporter and delivered to Myanmar in front off the BBC, ABC,CNN and all other world news media outlets.

The Rohingya people are persecuted in India also.

Finally-- some politician has said what I posted a few days ago -- to go after the smugglers and destroy the boats waiting out at sea, but some other do gooder politician in Aussie says that this would be wrong and a violation of international rights.

Destroying the boats makes sense but sense is hard to comprehend to a greedy politician.

This should be done internationally, bring in the Navy's or coastguard of these countries that are running slave trades and nip them in the Boat! before they can get the things loaded.

This could be a United global effort led by the useless United Nations.

But again common sense never prevails while the corrupt Snakehead people movers laugh their socks off as they collect bounty and extort people all over the world.

Some face saving could be gained if Thailand intercepted boats as they left Myanmar and put the people back to shore in front of the media and Destroyed the boats as would be the same world wide.

But one can only dream of the day that Politicians globally ever commit common sense, I personally think they are so corrupt that they are scarred to do so.

And the world becomes a bigger sewer every day.

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Some of the attitudes on here are disgusting. Boats full of human beings are drifting out at sea desperate and hungry and some of the attitude is "so what, they are Muslims they deserve it" you do know it is the Rohingya that are victims of brutal prejudice in Burma right? Think before you Start spitting your ignorant, racist bile. And Yes I would take them into the uk where despite similar attitudes multi-culturism works.

I find the attitude of the bleeding heart liberals disgusting. If these scumbags turned up at the Thai border and claimed to be 'refugees' they would soon be told to clear off, so they wallow about in boats hoping people will have 'compassion' for them, believe their lies about persecution and look after them and their many offspring. The boats should be given food an water and towed back out to sea. These people were not forced onto the boats, are not escaping a war and will only cause a headache in a Buddhist country just like they did where they come from.They have no right to enter Thailand legally so they are playing the asylum card like so many others, luckily the Thais are not as stupid as the west so far. Multi multiculturalism has not work in the UK it has been a divisive disaster, ask the 1500 children raped and tortured in Rotheram what they think about the socialist multi cultural dream

Ignorance abounds!

Yesterday on CNN was boatloads of men women and children packed like sardines, 40% of the children between the ages of 1 and 5, many sick some like skeletons from malnutrition.

The background according to CNN is they have been forced out of their villages, their houses burned, the Myanmar govt. denies them recognition of any sort including citizenship medical aid and food. This has now turned into a genocide aided and abetted by the joint governments of Thailand Malaysia and Indonesia denying them landings of any sort, so you cannot return them to where they have come from when they have effectively been evicted from their own country.The Myanmar govt. will not even discuss the problem if anyone even mentions the name Rohingya. CNN tried to re find these boats but could not.

I have no regrets for any of my earlier postings in their support and feel pretty aggrieved by the ignorance of some TV members who posted so many inhumane and nasty comments like they should become fish food, or they are on boats because they know there are benefits available in other countries and have designer jeans etc to attempt to lump together and blacken any refugee group as all the same.There certainly is a difference between these people and visa queue jumpers.

The BBC reports no such thing.. .rather the so called refugees are paying large sums of money to board and are enticed to do by Traffickers ... Please post some links to videos of the houses being burned .

It was CNN not BBC as I said. A quick google which you could do yourself:

U.S. Campaign for Burma - Rohingya: Ethnic Cleansing
uscampaignforburma.org › About Burma › Conflict & Human Rights
Government persecution has enabled Rakhine Buddhist nationalists to implement a reign of terror against the Rohingya with impunity. Hate speech directed against Rohingya Muslims appears regularly in state-run media, and some Buddhist monks have instigated vitriolic rumors and discrimination against the minority group. Hate speech has helped fuel waves of violence and systematic arson attacks in Rakhine State.
Of the hundreds of thousands of Rohingya that have fled to Bangladesh, Thailand, and Malaysia to escape persecution and adversity, approximately 300,000 Rohingya live in squalid conditions in Bangladesh where they are denied access to food supplies, medical aid, and education. In essence, the Rohingya are “Exiled to Nowhere.”

http://uscampaignforburma.org/about-burma/conflict-and-human-rights/rohingya-ethnic-cleansing.html

“Untold Miseries” Human Rights Watch
Wartime Abuses and Forced Displacement in Burma’s Kachin State
MARCH 20, 2012
This 83-page report describes how the Burmese army has attacked Kachin villages, razed homes, pillaged properties, and forced the displacement of tens of thousands of people. Soldiers have threatened and tortured civilians during interrogations and raped women. The army has also used antipersonnel mines and conscripted forced laborers, including children as young as 14, on the front lines.
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Same could be said for the Buddhist driven out of the deep south by the Muslims, dog eat dog

Not that it matters but the Muslims were there long before the Buddhists.

Edited by Bluespunk
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