The truth really does hurt

[kannot]

About 2 years ago my wife and I hired a Myanmar girl as a housekeeper, 3 days a week, 300 baht a day. Before her, we had 2 Thai, both mid 30's and dead bone lazy and totally worthless. Each lasted less than two weeks.

Ok, at first I was concerned as she was only 25, very pretty, and speaks better English than most Thai I know, and has a great sense of humor.

She's still with us, at 350 a day, and I wouldn't trade her for any 5 Thai housekeepers I could think of. For her, my wife is Pi Kae, and I'm Lune Dean, and she truly is like a part of our family.

Sounds great, what we are offering them is a long term 20+ years job with good employers but this does not interest them at all they just seem bone idle, we keep trawling thru them, had a couple of good ones but one said work was too hard but not to us to the agent he told us "Father sick" the other just went after 6 months for a new job, no reason.

I always work with them if doing hard work, I do half of it including digging and im 51, they are often 30 or under

[kennypowers]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

It appears you have never employed staff in Thailand from this answer and have no idea of salaries, the salary is better than what anyone else is paying they could easily save well over half of that and most likely all of it, would you like to see their house? this was there house BEFORE they all decided they simply could not ne bothered to take care of it, second picture is their house now which requires NO cleaning on their part as they seemed unable to keep it clean. Free motorbike with Free fuel also so the 18k incudes , rice, electric, water, tv, fish, any vegetables on the land inc mango papaya banana lemon grass and a few others, they don't have any travel expenses or accommodation expenses or services bills.

Oh yeah I built t his staff house alone no help at all, all the work on the land I have also done at sometime so I know how hard/easy the job is,,,,,,,,,its EASY

I have a lot of experience with salaries in Thailand. I'm not saying the salary isn't good in terms of comparative market rates. That wasn't the point I was making. I'm just not comfortable with paying someone a salary that wouldn't afford them even a fraction of the life I can with my family.

And in answer to the other poster who said So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

I believe everyone should have access to the same level of education, and if you've ever been near rural Thailand you should have worked out by now that education is deliberately underfunded by central government in order to keep an endless line of slaves queuing up to work in the "engine room" of Thailand. You need people on the bottom to enable people to live affluently on the top.

[kannot]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

It appears you have never employed staff in Thailand from this answer and have no idea of salaries, the salary is better than what anyone else is paying they could easily save well over half of that and most likely all of it, would you like to see their house? this was there house BEFORE they all decided they simply could not ne bothered to take care of it, second picture is their house now which requires NO cleaning on their part as they seemed unable to keep it clean. Free motorbike with Free fuel also so the 18k incudes , rice, electric, water, tv, fish, any vegetables on the land inc mango papaya banana lemon grass and a few others, they don't have any travel expenses or accommodation expenses or services bills.

Oh yeah I built t his staff house alone no help at all, all the work on the land I have also done at sometime so I know how hard/easy the job is,,,,,,,,,its EASY

I have a lot of experience with salaries in Thailand. I'm not saying the salary isn't good in terms of comparative market rates. That wasn't the point I was making. I'm just not comfortable with paying someone a salary that wouldn't afford them even a fraction of the life I can with my family.

And in answer to the other poster who said So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

I believe everyone should have access to the same level of education, and if you've ever been near rural Thailand you should have worked out by now that education is deliberately underfunded by central government in order to keep an endless line of slaves queuing up to work in the "engine room" of Thailand. You need people on the bottom to enable people to live affluently on the top.

I think we are going to have to disagree as the problem is many simply dont want to work and i dont think a minimum wage helps in many cases, some simply arent worth the money., some cant be educated, those who want to "get on" in the world will generally find a way.

Im not brain of Britain but even as a young kid I would go out and clear peoples houses of snow in winter when I was 10 years old to "make a few Bob" its more about willingness to work, If I had a good worker he would be amply rewarded.

[Morakot]

and she truly is like a part of our family.

The few times when I've heard that it worked out with house/ ground staff was exactly like this -- that they de facto became a part of the family.

[circusman]

I dont expect someone to do something unless Im willing to do the same job.

[Bangkok Barry]

Kannot..

Theres a house being built next door...i have mentioned it before on TVF...The builder was doing a fantastic job, but then he started bringing in cheaper labour to do finishing etc...The TVF member building has.. had enough.. and is now on his 4th Tiler...WHO IS the best i have seen laying tiles ever...But it took 4 tilers to get the right job...The windows werent square and the sliders wouldn't close the windows....thats after 2 times trying to fix them...It goes on and on.

The Painter has wrecked the place with paint over window sils and in general never comes before lunch....Now there's a holdup I believe, as the painted is going to be a monk for a while, and another painter has to be found....

The guy building (one of us) started out so happy and contented when the house started, but now all he wants is for them to be gone, and he can do repairs, to their new home, himself...

SO...point is , some are good and some are plain usless as well.....It's just pot luck.

To answer the question on Day rate...forget it i tried that when building years ago...Offer them an Hourly rate only for the hours worked, and tell them if they havent started the day before 8am...dont start, try again tomorrow, if theres a vacancy before 8am, they can start.......THAT works !

I hear you. I had builders in to virtually re-build my house, who failed to hang ANY of the doors properly, and when they did the painting they managed to splash it absolutely everywhere. I offered people $100 if they could find any wall or piece of furniture without paint, and no-one could. And when I asked them to clean paint off some windows they did it with sandpaper. Really. Beyond stupid. The problem was, a couple of the workers, including the boss, were family, so complaining was totally out of the question. It was good they were family as we were unlikely to be ripped off, but there was that negative side as well. It was only after they'd finished the six month job that my wife told me that none of them were qualified builders or electricians. Once the job was done I've just had to put up with the poor finishing, and just hope that the actual infrastructure is sound.

[kannot]

Be interesting to see some posts from people that do NOT have these problems with Thai staff. Not saying you are doing anything wrong, just wondering what some people are doing right. Or is it simply the work, land work being not what they fancy ? Certainly in the UK we tend to recruit workers from the former Eastern bloc for this type of work.

Really not going for the "rich" farang scenario, has to be more to this problem that many people on here seem to be complaining about. And if this were true of all Thai's then industrial output would be dropping like a stone and foreign investors would have quit years ago.

I think you would have to know productivity rates etc All the big Japanese companies are here in the Motor Industry but is that due to cheap labour or just hedging their bets worldwide.

[SoiBiker]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

[Bangkok Barry]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

Go to the cinema, bowling - have you ever been anywhere near rural Thailand?

The person that comes round and collects rubbish for recycling sends his daughter to a private school. Many Thais may look poor but they are anything but.

[kannot]

Kannot..

Theres a house being built next door...i have mentioned it before on TVF...The builder was doing a fantastic job, but then he started bringing in cheaper labour to do finishing etc...The TVF member building has.. had enough.. and is now on his 4th Tiler...WHO IS the best i have seen laying tiles ever...But it took 4 tilers to get the right job...The windows werent square and the sliders wouldn't close the windows....thats after 2 times trying to fix them...It goes on and on.

The Painter has wrecked the place with paint over window sils and in general never comes before lunch....Now there's a holdup I believe, as the painted is going to be a monk for a while, and another painter has to be found....

The guy building (one of us) started out so happy and contented when the house started, but now all he wants is for them to be gone, and he can do repairs, to their new home, himself...

SO...point is , some are good and some are plain usless as well.....It's just pot luck.

To answer the question on Day rate...forget it i tried that when building years ago...Offer them an Hourly rate only for the hours worked, and tell them if they havent started the day before 8am...dont start, try again tomorrow, if theres a vacancy before 8am, they can start.......THAT works !

I hear you. I had builders in to virtually re-build my house, who failed to hang ANY of the doors properly, and when they did the painting they managed to splash it absolutely everywhere. I offered people $100 if they could find any wall or piece of furniture without paint, and no-one could. And when I asked them to clean paint off some windows they did it with sandpaper. Really. Beyond stupid. The problem was, a couple of the workers, including the boss, were family, so complaining was totally out of the question. It was good they were family as we were unlikely to be ripped off, but there was that negative side as well. It was only after they'd finished the six month job that my wife told me that none of them were qualified builders or electricians. Once the job was done I've just had to put up with the poor finishing, and just hope that the actual infrastructure is sound.

For one of the houses I built with a builder he said they could do roofs, in fact the workers told me they had never done a roof before ever after they had done this................I made them remove it all and with some supervision did this. After this I did it all myself, all they did was the basic shell I did all painting tiling ceilings electrics etc and the next house I did it all.

[Bangkok Barry]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

It appears you have never employed staff in Thailand from this answer and have no idea of salaries, the salary is better than what anyone else is paying they could easily save well over half of that and most likely all of it, would you like to see their house? this was there house BEFORE they all decided they simply could not ne bothered to take care of it, second picture is their house now which requires NO cleaning on their part as they seemed unable to keep it clean. Free motorbike with Free fuel also so the 18k incudes , rice, electric, water, tv, fish, any vegetables on the land inc mango papaya banana lemon grass and a few others, they don't have any travel expenses or accommodation expenses or services bills.

Oh yeah I built t his staff house alone no help at all, all the work on the land I have also done at sometime so I know how hard/easy the job is,,,,,,,,,its EASY

I have a lot of experience with salaries in Thailand. I'm not saying the salary isn't good in terms of comparative market rates. That wasn't the point I was making. I'm just not comfortable with paying someone a salary that wouldn't afford them even a fraction of the life I can with my family.

And in answer to the other poster who said So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

I believe everyone should have access to the same level of education, and if you've ever been near rural Thailand you should have worked out by now that education is deliberately underfunded by central government in order to keep an endless line of slaves queuing up to work in the "engine room" of Thailand. You need people on the bottom to enable people to live affluently on the top.

Twenty percent of the national budget is spent on education, so it is far from underfunded. It is how the money is used that is the problem.

[kannot]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

"A" about 90%

[SoiBiker]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

"A" about 90%

I guess you would choose that option. The thread title certainly seems a little ironic.

[Morakot]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

Ahh... wonderful! The world of back-and-white thought.

[kannot]

I dont expect someone to do something unless Im willing to do the same job.

I have done everything i ask them to do and I STILL do it with them now that includes spraying Gramoxone, weeding fish feeding watering trees mixing cement cleaning moving building blocks shovelling tons of gravel off my pick up cutting down banana trees cleaning shit up from dogs, cleaning the houses etc

Your point however is irrelevant, you pay someone to do a job they say they can and will do for an amount you agreed, I mean can you build a car? so you ask someone and pay them to do it as you cant.

However the work my staff have to do is simple.

[kannot]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

"A" about 90%

I guess you would choose that option. The thread title certainly seems a little ironic.

"guess" being the word

[fred Kubasa]

During my first 8 of the 11 years I have been here I felt that the average Thai worker was taken advantage of and

down trodden but, the last 3 years, I discovered much of what you say to be true. Many, maybe most, are downright lazy, dependent on others,

primarily daughters, who deniability aside, are "sold off " to any occupation, ( few ), they may suited for. Often the girls end up on one flesh market or another and become the main support for the entire family. The male siblings resort to drinking, gambling, creating unsupported babies and, of course, petty crime. The education system is poor but it doesn't really matter as the students don't give a damn about anything and haven' a clue about what "learning" is supposed to be. Officials in every agency do well as do the foreign "connected " people,and the rest ? the rest just doze.Thailand is a land of lost souls who may never awaken !

[SoiBiker]

Even if 90% of Thai people are lazy as you claim - surely that means it's down to you to find the 10% who aren't?

[kannot]

Even if 90% of Thai people are lazy as you claim - surely that means it's down to you to find the 10% who aren't?

Im all ears?

"wanted workers who aren't bone idle"

Oh yes we have banners put up on the main road about 2 miles away and outside the house got them made in Pranburi they are 2 metres wide,we also use agents and word of mouth, do you think we should waterboard them?

[Anthony5]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

It appears you have never employed staff in Thailand from this answer and have no idea of salaries, the salary is better than what anyone else is paying they could easily save well over half of that and most likely all of it, would you like to see their house? this was there house BEFORE they all decided they simply could not ne bothered to take care of it, second picture is their house now which requires NO cleaning on their part as they seemed unable to keep it clean. Free motorbike with Free fuel also so the 18k incudes , rice, electric, water, tv, fish, any vegetables on the land inc mango papaya banana lemon grass and a few others, they don't have any travel expenses or accommodation expenses or services bills.

Oh yeah I built t his staff house alone no help at all, all the work on the land I have also done at sometime so I know how hard/easy the job is,,,,,,,,,its EASY

I have a lot of experience with salaries in Thailand. I'm not saying the salary isn't good in terms of comparative market rates. That wasn't the point I was making. I'm just not comfortable with paying someone a salary that wouldn't afford them even a fraction of the life I can with my family.

And in answer to the other poster who said So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

I believe everyone should have access to the same level of education, and if you've ever been near rural Thailand you should have worked out by now that education is deliberately underfunded by central government in order to keep an endless line of slaves queuing up to work in the "engine room" of Thailand. You need people on the bottom to enable people to live affluently on the top.

So I take it that you pay your maid or any other labor you use 30K a month. Right?

[kannot]

Perhaps you should just do it yourself, or get family members to chip in. Would you do that job for 9k a month (18k for 2 people)? Would you be enthusiastic?

I mean, not exactly going to create a better like is it? Can't save for a pension, can't get private health care, can't send the kids to a private school, can't eat out at restaurants, go to the cinema, bowling, can't go on a family holiday, can't pay a monthly payment on a car.

The wage might be higher than what is normally paid for this job, but it still isn't a fair wage and represents everything that is wrong with this country and indeed so many others.

It appears you have never employed staff in Thailand from this answer and have no idea of salaries, the salary is better than what anyone else is paying they could easily save well over half of that and most likely all of it, would you like to see their house? this was there house BEFORE they all decided they simply could not ne bothered to take care of it, second picture is their house now which requires NO cleaning on their part as they seemed unable to keep it clean. Free motorbike with Free fuel also so the 18k incudes , rice, electric, water, tv, fish, any vegetables on the land inc mango papaya banana lemon grass and a few others, they don't have any travel expenses or accommodation expenses or services bills.

Oh yeah I built t his staff house alone no help at all, all the work on the land I have also done at sometime so I know how hard/easy the job is,,,,,,,,,its EASY

I have a lot of experience with salaries in Thailand. I'm not saying the salary isn't good in terms of comparative market rates. That wasn't the point I was making. I'm just not comfortable with paying someone a salary that wouldn't afford them even a fraction of the life I can with my family.

And in answer to the other poster who said So you think an unqualified labourer working on the land should receive a salary that will allow them to send their children to private school?

I believe everyone should have access to the same level of education, and if you've ever been near rural Thailand you should have worked out by now that education is deliberately underfunded by central government in order to keep an endless line of slaves queuing up to work in the "engine room" of Thailand. You need people on the bottom to enable people to live affluently on the top.

So I take it that you pay your maid or any other labor you use 30K a month. Right?

Each I hope ?

[SoiBiker]

Even if 90% of Thai people are lazy as you claim - surely that means it's down to you to find the 10% who aren't?

Im all ears?

"wanted workers who aren't bone idle"

Oh yes we have banners put up on the main road about 2 miles away and outside the house got them made in Pranburi they are 2 metres wide,we also use agents and word of mouth, do you think we should waterboard them?

I'm no recruitment expert. But then, I'm not trying to recruit anyone - or laying the blame elsewhere when I fail to do so.

[Anthony5]

Even if 90% of Thai people are lazy as you claim - surely that means it's down to you to find the 10% who aren't?

Im all ears?

"wanted workers who aren't bone idle"

Oh yes we have banners put up on the main road about 2 miles away and outside the house got them made in Pranburi they are 2 metres wide,we also use agents and word of mouth, do you think we should waterboard them?

I'm no recruitment expert. But then, I'm not trying to recruit anyone - or laying the blame elsewhere when I fail to do so.

So in short, you are commenting on a subject of which you know nothing.

[buhi]

I have a Thai 'friend' who is a builder, and when I need him, if it is not an emergency, I need to wait. Why? Because he is always busy and in demand a real hard worker. He speaks very good English too. It turns out he spent years working in Saudi.

There are other tradespeople who do a good job, but next time I try to contact them they have left Bangkok and returned to their home and family.

This it would seem is the problem, family overides all.

I live close to, not too close, to my Thai wife's family; she needs to see them or speak at length on the phone everyday.

Her son, step son of mine is a lazy good for nothing scumbag. Learnt early in life he could rely on his mother or her mother to look after the bum. See it too often!

[Reallush]

finding the right people to work for you is a pain, they come on the brink of poverty not being able to pay their monthly bike payments, when they work with us they even manage to save and finish building their own house. and they forget what it was to be poor. that's when they become a bit over confident and aren't afraid of losing their job. but when they do.. it does go downward.

seen it over and over with these rubber tappers,
most landworkers are used to daily work, I think they don't appreciate the 18000 per couple/month payment.
it's never enough.

[Phuketboy]

Maybe put an automatic water system in place (such as the irrigation systems with timers we use in gardens back home). Then it's just the fish that need feeding and the tidying of trees. The fish feeding can be done by your wife and the trees don't need tidying every single day, maybe once a week. This will cut back on the amount of labour you need. Expecting people to work outside in this heat and sun would be a challenge, I certainly wouldn't like to do it and I come from a construction background.

I agree Thai's are lazy when it comes to work and it's not just manual labour type of work either. Thai's work long hours, some 12hrs with only 2 days off a month. However, it's certainly not hard work, but it could seem tiring because work is all they do. I have 22 staff working for me and it can be a nightmare to motivate them. They would much rather sit and talk and relax, especially when it's hot. Maybe offer them 9-5 hours, 5 days a week with the weekends off. This may entice them as they will be able to work and have time to themselves as well. Need to generate a balance.

[Gecko123]

I guess there are two possibilities.

A - All Thai people are lazy.

B - Your recruitment and management methods could use some improvement.

"A" about 90%

Which with that answer, quickly brings us back around to possibility B.

[Bangkok Barry]

Many Thais are poor because they are lazy. Simple as that.

[user82374298374]

Ok 18,000 for 2 people a month. My sister in law is a police Sgt in Surin and earns 15,000 a month before tax and pension etc.

Yes, but police sergeants generally get extras which amount to far more than their piddling official salaries - it's the only reason they purchase their positions in the first place.

I'm sure your sister-in-law is the exception to the rule, of course.

[marko kok prong]

During my first 8 of the 11 years I have been here I felt that the average Thai worker was taken advantage of and

down trodden but, the last 3 years, I discovered much of what you say to be true. Many, maybe most, are downright lazy, dependent on others,

primarily daughters, who deniability aside, are "sold off " to any occupation, ( few ), they may suited for. Often the girls end up on one flesh market or another and become the main support for the entire family. The male siblings resort to drinking, gambling, creating unsupported babies and, of course, petty crime. The education system is poor but it doesn't really matter as the students don't give a damn about anything and haven' a clue about what "learning" is supposed to be. Officials in every agency do well as do the foreign "connected " people,and the rest ? the rest just doze.Thailand is a land of lost souls who may never awaken !

Has in not always been thus,Kipling referred to the indolence of the east,then again when it is 40c and 76% humidity,why would you not be indolent,add this to the fact that Thailand has a very low unemployment rate[according to govt stastistics],the fact that near everyone now has a tv and internet access,they want the life they see on the tv and internet,not slogging it out in the feilds in 40c heat. you cannot compare this to the western 'work ethic', as all of us from Europe,Usa,Australia,have a much more temperate climate. i tried helping my wife and her cousin clear some overgrown land once,in the cool season,i was finished after two hours,gasping whilst lying on a woven mat like a freshly landed fish. However there are many in our village who work for a few weeks then do nothing for months until they are skint and have to go and work again,but this seems to be the way of it in SE asia.True what you say about the Thai men though,a more useless, spineless bunch{not all,but a lot],one would be hard pressed to find.