Just for the record -Eu adopted in Greece

[Naam]

-Goldman Sachs has acted as fraudulent as the Greek government to gain access to the €UR currency union.

-the $350 billion debt was accumulated over years due to mismanagement, corruption. tax evasion and dolce vita retirement regulations just to name a few.

-keep on discussing and claiming the thieves are innocent and the ones from whom was stolen are the culprits with whomever you want but not with me.

"Your Honour, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury...

my client is innocent. he did not murder the victim it was his gun that fired the deadly bullet when the stupid victim stepped into the bullet's path. therefore you must not only acquit but award my client the modest sum of 350,000,000,000 Dollars!"

[sirineou]

-Goldman Sachs has acted as fraudulent as the Greek government to gain access to the €UR currency union.

-the $350 billion debt was accumulated over years due to mismanagement, corruption. tax evasion and dolce vita retirement regulations just to name a few.

-keep on discussing and claiming the thieves are innocent and the ones from whom was stolen are the culprits with whomever you want but not with me.

"Your Honour, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury...

my client is innocent. he did not murder the victim it was his gun that fired the deadly bullet when the stupid victim stepped into the bullet's path. therefore you must not only acquit but award my client the modest sum of 350,000,000,000 Dollars!"

I am glad you are so easily amused personally I find very nothing amusing about this situation

"-the $350 billion debt was accumulated over years due to mismanagement, corruption. tax evasion and dolce vita retirement regulations just to name a few."

and you claim, the lenders who lend the money were not aware of the mismanagement, corruption and tax revenue of Greece?

'In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.^[1]"

^{Does your above quote meet the criteria of the above definition of Odious debt???}

^{If not why?}

^"my client is innocent. he did not murder the victim it was his gun that fired the deadly bullet when the stupid victim stepped into the bullet's path. therefore you must not only acquit but award my client the modest sum of 350,000,000,000 Dollars!"?

​Simply not an apropos analogy, but I am glad you find it amusing, some one has to

​you can successfully argue as many have that the gun was defective, and fired on it's own against your wishes. Odious Gun , get it

[green job]

Germans are industrious, creative, inventive and productive. It is cultural. They understand the value of hard work. They also constantly strive to increase productivity.

Germans will take iron ore and make it into useful steel thereby creating new wealth. Then they will turn that steel into a new automobile further increasing new wealth. They will continually hone the quality and technology of the steel manufacturing process and the automobile manufacturing process and even the automobile itself.

All along the way this new wealth creates jobs and pays taxes.

Anything the Germans design and make is top quality and has a worldwide market. Germans constantly strive to do better and they have the ability to reach that goal.

On the other hand the Greeks create their new wealth and jobs by... Well, I can't think of much.

I think I need a nap now.

Point is they dont. They are good at telling other people what to do,and using them. VW made in Germany ( wolfsburg and Hannover ) by Gastarbeiter ect ect ect.

it goes on and on. My mate worked in Krefeld ( met him every friday for years on the flight home to Luton from Monchengladbach ) Chief design officer for BMW office

in Krefeld,employing many Brits. I worked in the 70s and 80s quite a few years at VW in Hannover stocken and also Wolfsburg most workers were from Turky Greece and Italy

http://www.dw.de/turkish-guest-workers-transformed-german-society/a-15489210

[Naam]

Germans are industrious, creative, inventive and productive. It is cultural. They understand the value of hard work. They also constantly strive to increase productivity.

Germans will take iron ore and make it into useful steel thereby creating new wealth. Then they will turn that steel into a new automobile further increasing new wealth. They will continually hone the quality and technology of the steel manufacturing process and the automobile manufacturing process and even the automobile itself.

All along the way this new wealth creates jobs and pays taxes.

Anything the Germans design and make is top quality and has a worldwide market. Germans constantly strive to do better and they have the ability to reach that goal.

On the other hand the Greeks create their new wealth and jobs by... Well, I can't think of much.

I think I need a nap now.

Point is they dont. They are good at telling other people what to do,and using them. VW made in Germany ( wolfsburg and Hannover ) by Gastarbeiter ect ect ect.

it goes on and on. My mate worked in Krefeld ( met him every friday for years on the flight home to Luton from Monchengladbach ) Chief design officer for BMW office

in Krefeld,employing many Brits. I worked in the 70s and 80s quite a few years at VW in Hannover stocken and also Wolfsburg most workers were from Turky Greece and Italy

http://www.dw.de/turkish-guest-workers-transformed-german-society/a-15489210

summary:

without British help Ferdinand Porsche would have never been able to design the Volkswagen "Beetle" and without workers from Greece and Turkey cars couldn't be produced in Germany because German workers are too clumsy.

and the real reason why the EU was formed is that Germany does not qualify to be a member of an exclusive club of wealthy nations called the Commonwealth (earlier known as British Commonwealth).

[green job]

Germans are industrious, creative, inventive and productive. It is cultural. They understand the value of hard work. They also constantly strive to increase productivity.

Germans will take iron ore and make it into useful steel thereby creating new wealth. Then they will turn that steel into a new automobile further increasing new wealth. They will continually hone the quality and technology of the steel manufacturing process and the automobile manufacturing process and even the automobile itself.

All along the way this new wealth creates jobs and pays taxes.

Anything the Germans design and make is top quality and has a worldwide market. Germans constantly strive to do better and they have the ability to reach that goal.

On the other hand the Greeks create their new wealth and jobs by... Well, I can't think of much.

I think I need a nap now.

Point is they dont. They are good at telling other people what to do,and using them. VW made in Germany ( wolfsburg and Hannover ) by Gastarbeiter ect ect ect.

it goes on and on. My mate worked in Krefeld ( met him every friday for years on the flight home to Luton from Monchengladbach ) Chief design officer for BMW office

in Krefeld,employing many Brits. I worked in the 70s and 80s quite a few years at VW in Hannover stocken and also Wolfsburg most workers were from Turky Greece and Italy

http://www.dw.de/turkish-guest-workers-transformed-german-society/a-15489210

summary:

without British help Ferdinand Porsche would have never been able to design the Volkswagen "Beetle" and without workers from Greece and Turkey cars couldn't be produced in Germany because German workers are too clumsy.

and the real reason why the EU was formed is that Germany does not qualify to be a member of an exclusive club of wealthy nations called the Commonwealth (earlier known as British Commonwealth).

For a change you seem to of got a few things correct. Well done.

[SheungWan]

-Goldman Sachs has acted as fraudulent as the Greek government to gain access to the €UR currency union.

-the $350 billion debt was accumulated over years due to mismanagement, corruption. tax evasion and dolce vita retirement regulations just to name a few.

-keep on discussing and claiming the thieves are innocent and the ones from whom was stolen are the culprits with whomever you want but not with me.

"Your Honour, Ladies and Gentlemen of the Jury...

my client is innocent. he did not murder the victim it was his gun that fired the deadly bullet when the stupid victim stepped into the bullet's path. therefore you must not only acquit but award my client the modest sum of 350,000,000,000 Dollars!"

I am glad you are so easily amused personally I find very nothing amusing about this situation

"-the $350 billion debt was accumulated over years due to mismanagement, corruption. tax evasion and dolce vita retirement regulations just to name a few."

and you claim, the lenders who lend the money were not aware of the mismanagement, corruption and tax revenue of Greece?

'In international law, odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is a legal theory that holds that the national debt incurred by a regime for purposes that do not serve the best interests of the nation, should not be enforceable. Such debts are, thus, considered by this doctrine to be personal debts of the regime that incurred them and not debts of the state. In some respects, the concept is analogous to the invalidity of contracts signed under coercion.^[1]"

^{Does your above quote meet the criteria of the above definition of Odious debt???}

^{If not why?}

^"my client is innocent. he did not murder the victim it was his gun that fired the deadly bullet when the stupid victim stepped into the bullet's path. therefore you must not only acquit but award my client the modest sum of 350,000,000,000 Dollars!"?

​Simply not an apropos analogy, but I am glad you find it amusing, some one has to

​you can successfully argue as many have that the gun was defective, and fired on it's own against your wishes. Odious Gun , get it

So default on your debts then and withdraw from the Euro.

[puck2]

The Euro problem is that Germany gets most of the benefits and the Southern tier pays the price, which is particularly evident in the ongoing recessionary environment. The case of Greece was worsened by the profligate spending that the prior governments concealed, but Spain and Ireland have the same problem even though they were running budget surpluses before the crash in 2008. The problem is that because Germany has higher productivity it benefits from the currency union because the euro is cheaper than the Deutschmark would be if the euro zone broke up. A new peseta or new drachma would be cheaper than the euro and much cheaper than a new Deutschmark. So, Germany is playing the same game as China, although by different means: it keeps its currency cheap to make its exports cheap, hollowing out the manufacturing sectors of their trade partners. And indeed Germany is the leading exporter in Europe. The other euro countries cannot devalue their currency to price their labor competitively with Germany. That was the UK's big advantage after 2008, that it could and did devalue the pound leading to an early recovery (which Cameron then sabotaged for ideological reasons pushing the UK into a double-dip recession.) Add to this the fact that the housing bubbles in Spain and Ireland, for instance, were fueled by the trade surpluses larding up Germany banks.

.......

Maybe i missed some economic news within the last decade. It (Germany) keeps it's currency cheap ??

As far as I can believe the news there is a ECB (European Central BANK) which is responsible for the €.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank

..... shows me a lot of different reasons for the European debt crisis ( read --> main causes of Wiki). In a nutshell, all the debt ridden countries caused the problems by themselves, not the Germans. But that's politics, point the finger at somebody else, not at yourself. If you prefer to beliefe their fairy tales, up to you.

It's right, the cheap € gives the German exporters some benefits. But hold in mind, this was not made/decided to give the Germans an advantage (although it was predictable). In principle it was created for the debt ridden €-countries. Otherwise the interst rates for their new debts would have skyrocket, if givven at all..

BTW, did you ever ask yourself why all the "southern tier" didn't leave the Euro so that they would have been able to devalue their currencies? The Greecs use this situation now to extort the €-countries. Guess how they would cry like babies when it would happen.

Edited June 3, 2015 by puck2

[CaptHaddock]

How clueless can you be? The ECB doesn't set the value of the euro any more than the Fed sets the value of the dollar. Free floating currencies like the dollar and the euro are valued minute by minute in the currency markets. The value that the markets place on currencies depends on the relative demand for them which depends on factors like trade flows, cross-border mergers and acquisitions, FDI, etc. The currencies of countries with persistent trade surpluses like Germany and Japan tend to float upward over time driven by the demand of their trading partners to settle trade transactions while those with persistent trade deficits tend to lose value. Thailand, for example, has almost always run a trade surplus which has kept the baht relatively high to the dismay and consternation of many of the expats here with assets in other currencies. The more recent weakness of the baht is directly attributable to declining exports.

The reason the Greeks haven't left the euro so far is that the Germans threaten to drive the Greek banks into bankruptcy by depriving them of cash inflows that they need which would result in a deeper depression in Greece than the depression they are currently experiencing. The Germans made the same threat to the Irish government during the crisis: if you don't assume responsibility for the Irish banks' losses (of the money of the stupid German bankers) we will destroy your banking system and therefore, the Irish economy. If the Fed had refused to provide liquidity by ramping up its balance sheet and creating new transfer mechanisms, the same would have happened to the US banks and the US economy. Of course, it is unthinkable that the Fed would sit by and let that happen, but not at all unthinkable that the Germans would.

But in the end the Greeks will never be able to pay the debts owed to the incompetent German banks. After some huffing and puffing the Germans will accept a writedown of the debt which will be publicly described as something else. If they don't, the Greeks will convert the debt to cheap, new drachmas having walked out of the euro having basically nothing left to lose at that point.

[green job]

How clueless can you be? The ECB doesn't set the value of the euro any more than the Fed sets the value of the dollar. Free floating currencies like the dollar and the euro are valued minute by minute in the currency markets. The value that the markets place on currencies depends on the relative demand for them which depends on factors like trade flows, cross-border mergers and acquisitions, FDI, etc. The currencies of countries with persistent trade surpluses like Germany and Japan tend to float upward over time driven by the demand of their trading partners to settle trade transactions while those with persistent trade deficits tend to lose value. Thailand, for example, has almost always run a trade surplus which has kept the baht relatively high to the dismay and consternation of many of the expats here with assets in other currencies. The more recent weakness of the baht is directly attributable to declining exports.

The reason the Greeks haven't left the euro so far is that the Germans threaten to drive the Greek banks into bankruptcy by depriving them of cash inflows that they need which would result in a deeper depression in Greece than the depression they are currently experiencing. The Germans made the same threat to the Irish government during the crisis: if you don't assume responsibility for the Irish banks' losses (of the money of the stupid German bankers) we will destroy your banking system and therefore, the Irish economy. If the Fed had refused to provide liquidity by ramping up its balance sheet and creating new transfer mechanisms, the same would have happened to the US banks and the US economy. Of course, it is unthinkable that the Fed would sit by and let that happen, but not at all unthinkable that the Germans would.

But in the end the Greeks will never be able to pay the debts owed to the incompetent German banks. After some huffing and puffing the Germans will accept a writedown of the debt which will be publicly described as something else. If they don't, the Greeks will convert the debt to cheap, new drachmas having walked out of the euro having basically nothing left to lose at that poi

So Herr namm Stick that in your pfeife,and smoke it. Well written

[SheungWan]

How clueless can you be? The ECB doesn't set the value of the euro any more than the Fed sets the value of the dollar. Free floating currencies like the dollar and the euro are valued minute by minute in the currency markets. The value that the markets place on currencies depends on the relative demand for them which depends on factors like trade flows, cross-border mergers and acquisitions, FDI, etc. The currencies of countries with persistent trade surpluses like Germany and Japan tend to float upward over time driven by the demand of their trading partners to settle trade transactions while those with persistent trade deficits tend to lose value. Thailand, for example, has almost always run a trade surplus which has kept the baht relatively high to the dismay and consternation of many of the expats here with assets in other currencies. The more recent weakness of the baht is directly attributable to declining exports.

The reason the Greeks haven't left the euro so far is that the Germans threaten to drive the Greek banks into bankruptcy by depriving them of cash inflows that they need which would result in a deeper depression in Greece than the depression they are currently experiencing. The Germans made the same threat to the Irish government during the crisis: if you don't assume responsibility for the Irish banks' losses (of the money of the stupid German bankers) we will destroy your banking system and therefore, the Irish economy. If the Fed had refused to provide liquidity by ramping up its balance sheet and creating new transfer mechanisms, the same would have happened to the US banks and the US economy. Of course, it is unthinkable that the Fed would sit by and let that happen, but not at all unthinkable that the Germans would.

But in the end the Greeks will never be able to pay the debts owed to the incompetent German banks. After some huffing and puffing the Germans will accept a writedown of the debt which will be publicly described as something else. If they don't, the Greeks will convert the debt to cheap, new drachmas having walked out of the euro having basically nothing left to lose at that point.

Yes, well, go ahead and make our day and convert the bills to new drachmas. We're all ears on that one. As for the German conspiracy junk, the usual wild posturings accompanied by the usual begging bowl held by outstretched hands. Unless Greece puts in structural changes to how they manage the economy the best that will happen is being kept on drip feed until either they do wake up and smell the coffee or do a runner. Either way they hold a dud poker hand and everybody knows it, well almost everybody except the conspiracy wonks a-gnashing their teeth as usual.

Edited June 3, 2015 by SheungWan

[puck2]

It seems Mr. CaptHaddock is a giant expert concerning the EU - Greek - German - economic relationship. .

But the "expert" neglects a lot of wisdom of real economic experts. So, its hardly surprising that he doesn't read/know what is really going on in Greece. I referred to

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Central_Bank

-especially "main causes" (scroll down) which explanes a lot about the Greek's money problems which are in strong contrast to his

The reason the Greeks haven't left the euro so far is that the Germans threaten to drive the Greek banks into bankruptcy by depriving them of cash inflows that they need which would result in a deeper depression in Greece than the depression they are currently experiencing...

+

The reason the Greeks haven't left the euro so far is that the Germans threaten to drive the Greek banks into bankruptcy by depriving them of cash inflows that they need which would result in a deeper depression in Greece than the depression they are currently experiencing.

BTW, Mr. CH, did I say: the ECB sets the value of the euro ?. No, I talked about responsibility. And... can you improve your kinky theories about the German banks?