Fences, walls and boundaries.

[Vogele123]

I saw a recent post in "Ask the lawyer" regarding a boundary wall that has touched on a bit of a problem we have recently had - Hopefully someone with a bit more knowledge might be able to shine a light on the problem.

We bought a block of land here back in 1997, it was next to an adjacent plot with no boundary or fence or any markings at all. It was owned by an old Thai couple and they planted Lam Yai trees (pretty much on what we thought to be the boundary line.

In 2010 we had the Land office check locate and mark the boundaries, which they did by locating and marking the chanote markers at all 4 corners.

Earlier this year, the old couple sold the land to some Hi So from near the city.

He came to let us know that he planned to put in a small "Cha" hedge to mark the boundary (This was going to be 1 foot high and made up of the privet like bush "Cha" that they sometimes use here)

However, we discovered (without asking us or even letting us know) he had workers come in when we were out and they put in 2 metre concrete pole 2/3rds of the way along our land, (No idea what they used for a reference point as it is impossible to see from chanote to chanote as it is in trees and is over 200 metres in length)

As far as we are concerned the pole is in our land (going by past reference points and memory) by about 2 metres.

Next they put a straight line in to mark the position of the wall (Yes, now it has turned from a small hedge to a 2 metre high concrete and barbed wire affair) However, instead of clearing a straight line between the 2 chanotes, he has ran a straight line from the furthest chanote to the new pole, this now puts three of my electric poles that I bought INSIDE HIS LAND! - so what did he do? He ripped my poles out!

So there has been a bit of a "ding dong" and the building has stopped - I have told him to get the Land Office in to check.

So, can anyone tell me if he actually requires a building permit or any other formal documentation to put up this barbed wire and concrete fence?

When the guy on the other side of us put his land up for sale and wanted to mark it out for chanotes, we received a letter from the Land Office to attend a meeting with them and him on the land before the chanotes were placed. We all signed a piece of paper saying that we agreed to the boundary, is this still the case or has something changed?

Cheers!

[steven100]

TV forum judges won't know as it's a specific situation. Go talk to the Lands officer or get a solicitor involved, he will know what to do to protect your land.

[Vogele123]

TV forum judges won't know as it's a specific situation. Go talk to the Lands officer or get a solicitor involved, he will know what to do to protect your land.

I had hoped that we could resolve it in an amicable way - I already told them that all they needed to do was to put a straight line between the 2 chanotes, and if I am wrong and my poles are in their land I will remove them, however they seem reluctant to do this and want to measure from 1 chanote to this pole that they put in. I have no problem accepting chanote to chanote, but the pole they put in is what we dispute, over about 170 metres, it takes a fair chunk out of what we believe is ours.

The main worry I have is that the guy is "well connected Hi So type" and might be able to manipulate the Land guys. (Going from past experience though, the Land Office here have been first class and take no cr@p from anyone - hope this is the case here. (We have now found out that he intends to develop the land as another bloody "Homestay".......fantastic! (Rooms full of whisky sodden Thai drunks playing guitars and wailing like castrated cats into the wee small hours)

Edited May 26, 2015 by Vogele123

[HooHaa]

the boundaries will be clearly marked on the land title, especially if chanote. if it is from post to post, then a straight line will be drawn between them, if it is not, there will be a third point shown representing the pole he put in.

Both your land title and his land title should be in agreement.

Edited May 26, 2015 by HooHaa

[Crossy]

Moving to Real Estate, but I agree with the above sentiments, YOU get the land office in to re-survey the boundaries, maybe pay a little tea money to get them out before the other party.

[Vogele123]

the boundaries will be clearly marked on the land title, especially if chanote. if it is from post to post, then a straight line will be drawn between them, if it is not, there will be a third point shown representing the pole he put in.

Both your land title and his land title should be in agreement.

Thanks for that, your chanote is interesting! Mine only shows our land, it shows nothing of the land next to it. Our piece is however clearly a straight line between the chanote numbers. The only reference that our papers show is a reference to the centre of the Nam Ping river!, about 300 metres across another piece of land. (Out of curiosity, is your chanote showing two pieces of your own land or is it showing two separate owners? - I have another 2 chanotes and they are the same as the first, they only show the one plot with reference again to the centre of the river)

[Vogele123]

Moving to Real Estate, but I agree with the above sentiments, YOU get the land office in to re-survey the boundaries, maybe pay a little tea money to get them out before the other party.

Understand what you mean, but all I need is for them to string a straight line between the two points, I will be happy whatever the outcome, fair is fair! I don't want anything that he owns, it doesn't bother me that way, I just want what we bought to be ours.

The funny thing is when I showed my wife (who can never get angry ) When she saw it she went "BALLISTIC" It shocked me really, I had never seen her go into one of those fits in 15 years of marriage! Guess one thing a Thai will stand up and hold their ground is their land.

(This is why I think the guy is trying to pull a fast one, he isn't really "fighting" - but if we are correct about 30 of his Lam Yai trees are virtually planted on our border which means they can basically be cut down the middle of their trunks - and will die! - The previous owner even apologized for having them come into our land - They lived 40KM away and never really came here, they had other locals plant and look after their trees)

[blackcab]

I would get a JCB and take his stuff out. There's no need to discuss it further.

[Crossy]

A proper land survey will cost peanuts and will be correctly marked with official markers, then there can be no argument.

But of course up2u.

[weegee]

Going through exactly the same scenerio again tomorrow with the Government present...They intend to run a string line from one peg to another...end of argument....but the neighbour is an uneducated flip, who knows he is stealing land, and goes into a rage anytime he cant get his own way....a real standover merchant in the village...

[rawhod]

A proper land survey will cost peanuts and will be correctly marked with official markers, then there can be no argument.

But of course up2u.

I agree with Crossy...it's not expensive to get a land office surveyor out, and an extra 1k baht will get them out very quickly.

The Chanote will only show the piece of land covered by that Chanote, (There may be extra indications of waterways)

In the mean time, get a piece of re-bar and prod around where you think the concrete boundary markers are, you might just find them. You can then check their id with the Chanote.

Just a suggestion...

[Vogele123]

A proper land survey will cost peanuts and will be correctly marked with official markers, then there can be no argument.

But of course up2u.

I agree with Crossy...it's not expensive to get a land office surveyor out, and an extra 1k baht will get them out very quickly.

The Chanote will only show the piece of land covered by that Chanote, (There may be extra indications of waterways)

In the mean time, get a piece of re-bar and prod around where you think the concrete boundary markers are, you might just find them. You can then check their id with the Chanote.

Just a suggestion...

I have already had the land survey from the Land Office, it costs 4500 Baht, (I have found the two markers from the chanote, however he has moved at least one of them.)unfortunately, it consisted of marking out the 4 corners of the land, it did not go as far as to actually bother putting a string between the points. Pity! Due to the size and layout of the land it is not that straight forward to get between the two points in question, not impossible but not line of site.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Vogele123

[Crossy]

Since markers have been moved you'll need to cough up again for a fresh survey

This time when they're positioned concrete the little bu99ers in position and get your own boundary fence in place. The land office chap can also help in determining if any of the new structure is on your land and what you can do about it.

Boundary disputes can quickly become acrimonious so it's always best to negotiate with the neighbour but it seems he is the type to ride roughshod over anyone who gets in his way.

What's your relationship with the local puyaibaan (village head)? They can have a lot of power in situations like this.

[Vogele123]

Since markers have been moved you'll need to cough up again for a fresh survey

This time when they're positioned concrete the little bu99ers in position and get your own boundary fence in place. The land office chap can also help in determining if any of the new structure is on your land and what you can do about it.

Boundary disputes can quickly become acrimonious so it's always best to negotiate with the neighbour but it seems he is the type to ride roughshod over anyone who gets in his way.

What's your relationship with the local puyaibaan (village head)? They can have a lot of power in situations like this.

We get on pretty well with the Kamnan here, two of the locals that have been doing some work for the guy who bought the land both agree that he has moved the boundary, so it could be positive. At the moment all building has stopped, so we are just waiting to see what his next step will be.

I am a bit annoyed about him moving the chanote, the land office told me when they did the last survey that anyone moving them would face jail.

Edited May 26, 2015 by Vogele123

[moojar]

The part that really surprises me is that this is the first wife-meltdown you have witnessed in 15 years. Geez, I wish I could say that.

The part about the neighbour trying to pinch your land doesn't surprise me at all - my wife says it is common. She has a small block that the elderly neighbour has obviously encroached on by perhaps three or four square meters in total. Refuses to confront the old biddy, says she will deal with it when the old lady dies. I wish she would show that level of patience and desire to avoid conflict with me!

All the advice you've been given sounds good to me - get the land office in, and get them in before the neighbour does. You've mentioned a string line, I think that is what I would do as best as I could, given the trees and line of sight issues. At least it would show some approximation of where the boundary is, which sounds like a long way from what your neighbour is claiming.

I cannot comprehend this guy's behaviour - telling you one thing then blatantly doing another re the hedge. And ripping out your poles! He does sound like the well connected "born to rule" type...

My biggest fear with the 13 Rai of land we plan to build on is that one of the neighbours will decide the corner or his land closest to and upwind of our house is just the right place for a pig pen or such. Not much we can do about that unfortunately, but I am very interested to hear of progress with your dispute. Please keep us updated!

Hmmm, pig pen, home stay, @rsewipe neighbour, ...

Cheers.

Edited May 27, 2015 by moojar

[Toscano]

Vogele123

Speaking of Thai wives seldom if ever showing anger , my wife is refusing to show anger over her sister and brother-in-law moving and rebuilding their house inappropriately close to ours , invading our privacy , at a higher level right to our garden wall and up it about 2ft . The sister claims it is her land and she can do what she likes on it . It has just occured to me that both sisters are relying on the land registry documment from when there were two paddy fields . My wife was given by her mother a piece of land to build a house on which she did , about 30yrs ago . Subsequently mother and father built a house alongside about 20 yrs ago . My wife's house had the usual metre of cement around it , as did the house the parents built . Between the two was a 2ft wide rainwater drain to take the water from the roofs of both houses . Both sisters think their original land documents are relevant ; but in my opinion they are outdated , no longer legally valid , superceded by the houses built on the land . The sister inherited a house , so the boudaries between the houses as built were accepted as the true legal boundaries by parents and my wife , not as on the prior land registry document of two fields . What the sister has done has caused my wife and I a great deal of stress , which has upset me very much . My wife resists causing a rift in the family ; where as I have been very vocal to my sister-in-law . I'm truly glad that your wife really let rip !!!

[blackcab]

Vogele123

Speaking of Thai wives seldom if ever showing anger , my wife is refusing to show anger over her sister and brother-in-law moving and rebuilding their house inappropriately close to ours , invading our privacy , at a higher level right to our garden wall and up it about 2ft . The sister claims it is her land and she can do what she likes on it . It has just occured to me that both sisters are relying on the land registry documment from when there were two paddy fields . My wife was given by her mother a piece of land to build a house on which she did , about 30yrs ago . Subsequently mother and father built a house alongside about 20 yrs ago . My wife's house had the usual metre of cement around it , as did the house the parents built . Between the two was a 2ft wide rainwater drain to take the water from the roofs of both houses . Both sisters think their original land documents are relevant ; but in my opinion they are outdated , no longer legally valid , superceded by the houses built on the land . The sister inherited a house , so the boudaries between the houses as built were accepted as the true legal boundaries by parents and my wife , not as on the prior land registry document of two fields . What the sister has done has caused my wife and I a great deal of stress , which has upset me very much . My wife resists causing a rift in the family ; where as I have been very vocal to my sister-in-law . I'm truly glad that your wife really let rip !!!

Building a house does not, in any way, alter or supercede a land boundary.

The chanote is correct, not the builders.

[callaway]

Easy solution. Get lsnd office surveyors in and have them check with both you and hiso in attendance. The boundary will be marked out. If the wall is on your land have them take it down or pay heavily for the extra land. The future wall must be built on his land not on boundary line like farangland. Stand your ground and not let this hiso piece of crap get over you. He is trying it on and not let him get away with anything.

[Tonto21]

I had a boundary dispute some years ago, 'We' had purchased some land, a parcel of farm land on the very edge of a village. When we came to marking out where the boundary wall was going to be, things did not add up.

We had marked out as per the Chanote........ long story short, our neighbour had built his boundary wall into over a meter on our land and for over 10 meters in length. The neighbour was adamant he was right and our Chanote was wrong....And he said; "Don't worry it's only a little bit of land, no problem" .... Cheeky Git!

We asked the land office to come a do a survey and re-mark the land, I think we paid for the 'express service' which I have to say was fantastic!

A team came out the next day, the woman who lead the team was very professional, (is a family friend of our now) They set to work, all under the watchful gaze of our neighbour and a dozen villagers.

When the team had finished, I was told the wall was in fact 1.5 meters inside our land.........."Oh" I said, I better talk to a solicitor then........The land office lady looked at me and smiled and just said no need, this is Thailand......She then called the guy over and simple told him to get the wall down by sundown tomorrow or she will come back and measure all his perimeter wall against the Chanote in the land office and this is the end of the issue or else.......The guy just looked at us all.... did a deep bow and bugged off.

In my limited experience the land office carry a lot of power when it comes to land and boundary disputes and can order walls and obstacles to be taken down, I would try and avoid solicitors..... Go back to the land office and see what they can do for you...

Best of luck

[HooHaa]

the boundaries will be clearly marked on the land title, especially if chanote. if it is from post to post, then a straight line will be drawn between them, if it is not, there will be a third point shown representing the pole he put in.

Both your land title and his land title should be in agreement.

Thanks for that, your chanote is interesting! Mine only shows our land, it shows nothing of the land next to it. Our piece is however clearly a straight line between the chanote numbers. The only reference that our papers show is a reference to the centre of the Nam Ping river!, about 300 metres across another piece of land. (Out of curiosity, is your chanote showing two pieces of your own land or is it showing two separate owners? - I have another 2 chanotes and they are the same as the first, they only show the one plot with reference again to the centre of the river)

this chaote is not mine, it is an example of a chonte pulled off the web.

[cooked]

I too had this kind of problem, but our neighbour is the 'oberthor'. I put in a concrete post right next to the chanote and when we left in the afternoon he broke it and built a crappy bamboo fence on our land (we are only talking about maybe 50 cm here). An aggressive discussion followed as I would be unable to continue construction of a fence without removing his fence.

I had 7 dogs, a wife with an iron bar and the well respected son in law behind me. The next day we concreted in 40 metres of fence posts and that was the end of it.

Good fences make good neighbours, it's a power thing, stupid Farang don't know nuffink.

I would never do anything like this without discussing with the neighbours first, and would be willing to make concessions for the sake of peace, but just confronting you with an obviously dishonest and cowardly piece of skulduggery really gets my goat. Obviously you won't get away with this kind of behaviour everywhere and i admit that I had a sleepless night. The son in law is great, I couldn't have done it without his help.