Advise for family of 5 living in Thailand for (about) one year

[SwissCheese]

Hello Thai Visa forum

This is my first post, so, a special hello to everyone.

After having reading many of your posts and topics over the last couple of months, I'm still having some issues of finding a couple of answers for our current situation.

So, let's give you a short overview:

• We are a family of five (my wife and I both are from Switzerland and still below the age of 50 ), we have three children (all bellow the age of 10)
• We are planning to spend one year (or probably more) in Thailand (more specifically in Chiang Mai) while we will pursue a couple of personal goals in (online) education and probably developing an online business (while trying to cut our costs down for this initial phase)
• Since we would only be eligible for a visa-on-arrival for 30 days (with the option to extend it for 30 more days in the country) or apply for a re-entry tourist visa here in Switzerland (which would only give as a double re-entry visa of 2x 60 days with 2x30 days extension in Thailand = 180days in total), we would consider applying for a Non-ED visa through a Thai learning school (which should give us the option to stay in the country for one year, given we would go for the 400 hours program)

So far, so good. However, where I still struggle is to understand, what this means financial wise:

• In case of the Non-ED visa: As I understand it, the remaining four of us (one of us parents and our three children) would need to apply for a Non-O dependant visa. Would we also need to renew / prolong our visas every 90 days and therefore having to pay the 1900 bath / person per quarter (equating to 28'800 bath / year for all visas), or is there a way to get an excemption for our children's visas? I'm also not quite sure, if the dependant visa haves to be renewed in the same rate as the Non-ED visa or if it would be possible to get a one year for the dependant visas
• given that a visa run with our children (by plane) would cost us at least 600$ each time we would have to leave the country, do you see any other options than going for the Non-ED visa route?
• what health-care insurance would you recommend for our family situation?
• do you consider it reasonable to live on 1500$ / month in Chiang Mai (without having to buy a car but still leaving some options for giving our children some change in scenery)

If some of you, with your wealth of knowledge and experience in Thailand, could share your thoughts on these questions, it would be greatly appreciated...

[manarak]

Firstly, I am sceptical about your planned visa situation - I don't want to discuss it too much, but triple-entry tourist visas will only provide you with a maximum duration of 9 months and 3 weeks, besides the fact that I haven't heard about triple entry visas for a long time already, and if they are issued, I am not sure if their validity will be long enough to stay almost 10 months.

But tourist visas might be your best option, I would bet the ED visas will prove a royal pain in the ass.

Second, I am very worried about your planned budget. 1500 USD per month with three children ???

This will be enough if you stay home all the time, eat rice everyday and nobody gets sick! What about school for the children?

I suggest you talk to Hon. Cons. Dr Thomas Burckhardt or Mrs. Marlies Burkhardt at the Royal Thai Consulate in Basel.

Edited May 26, 2015 by manarak

[ubonjoe]

Getting 2 (3 if possible) entry tourist visas before leaving would be best to start with would be good. You have to pay 1900 each for 30 day extensions. Then you could do a border run to Mae Sai to use the 2nd entries. No need to fly out and back. Then after the 6 months for the tourist visa ends you all would need to go out for another 2 entry tourist visa. From CM Vientiane would be the best location go get the visas.

The ED visas and extensions of stay is another option. There is of course the cost for the school tuition Then the cost of 5 extension every 90 days. Immigration will only do a 90 day extension for your children they can only do a dependent extension equal to the one it is based upon. I not sure how immigration will respond to one person on an extension based upon attending school getting 4 dependent extensions.

Children under the age of 15 don not pay overstay fines but are on an overstay and will get stamp on departure from the country. Not having to pay the fine does not mean they can stay without a valid permit to stay from a visa or extension.

For your children another option might be to enroll them in school and then get extensions for them for attending school. They would get one year extensions. If you were able to put 500k baht each in a Thai bank for 30 days each you could get extensions for being their parents. One parent can get an extension for one child.

[recycler]

If you are thinking about cutting cost already, you may consider another country. Thailand is horrible expensive certainly for families!

[Mario2008]

Post containing comment on spelling, and a reply to it, removed per forum rules.

[nzexpat]

SwissCheese

You may be able to find a means of overcoming the difficulties associated with visas for the family

However, I would urge caution .

The US$1500 equates -(at today's exchange rate) to approx. 49,500 Thai Baht out of which will have to be paid costs associated with housing, utilities, food, transport etc.

Please undertake adequate research and be reasonably certain that the "plan" is robust.

[phuketrichard]

family of 5 expect to spend a min of 50,000-70,000/month ( without school fees)

what about school?

if u put ur kids in school they will get a year visa and you each can get a year visa /kid so no need to bother with the ed visa

[akentryan]

Might check out Danang, Viet Nam. I just read trhat 4-story house costs $275 a month, electric $20 a month, wi-fi $20 a month and beer $.50. Have zero knowledge of visa requirements or school for the children. I do not believe you will enjoy trying to survive on 50,000 baht a month in Thailand. Visa runs will get very expensive and private schools are not cheap. Transportation costs are a problem and anything medical will be disastrous for you. Good luck.

[slipperylobster]

schools for foreign children conducted in English, are too expensive.

I rent a 4 bedroom, 4 bath house in CHiang Mai for 5ooo a month.

I would not want to live on less than 50,000. Baht (2 people). But many Thais do.

80'000 for a family of 5 might be the minimum (not including education for children, which would make that figure much too low)

Edited May 27, 2015 by slipperylobster

[recycler]

We have 1 kid on an international school, the cheapest in the region, and one on a bi-lingual school (only open for kids that speak Thai).

Only education costs us 50,000 Baht per month!

Groceries like meat, vegetables, fruit, milk, beer, etc. are almost all more expensive than in western Europe. Believe it or not, even Thai products like mangoes, bananas and dragon fruit are cheaper in NL than here in Thailand unless you are lucky and they need to sell off over-ripe quickly.

Don't forget medical cost, not unthinkable with 3 kids under 10, western style hospitals are ridiculously expensive.

Think of the benefits in Europe like free or almost free education, child support, well organized authorities with services.

Online dreams can be pursued anywhere in the world where there is an internet connection. In Thailand you will officially need a work permit to earn an income, that come with a company and 4 or 8 Thai employees. This company cost you more than running a company in Europe and there you wouldn't even need a company.

[larsjohnsson]

$1500 a month for 2 adults and 3 children is to little money. You are lucky if that will cover health care, visa and school-fees.

It's $300 per person and month !!!

Edited May 27, 2015 by larsjohnsson

[rogerpilly]

If I were you, I would go to southern Spain, Canary Islands or Portugal. No visa runs, no hassle, much nicer people, beautiful weather and like other members stated, life is definitively cheaper, especially for a family of five.

By the way, I would be curious to know why you wish to come to Thailand...

Edited May 27, 2015 by rogerpilly

[zeichen]

1,500 USD or 45k baht a month will not be enough for you and your family. You will have so many extra hidden fees that will arise throughout the year. If your kids get sick, dental visits. You will most likely have higher food costs as children tend to be pickier and probably won't want to eat Thai everyday. Going out to eat for a family of 5 will easily crush your food budget. You have to figure at least 10-15k baht a month for rent, another 15k baht a month for food that alone is 2/3rds your budget. Your rent will require deposit, first and last months rent. So your first day alone you will need to cough up 1k-1500 dollars. A rough guide would be a minimum of 200k baht to start up for your first month, then about 60-70k baht a month thereafter, minimum.

You should have at least 2k dollars 60k+baht a month to even consider it with an additional 5-10k dollars for back up emergencies.

As for the visa, basically everything you mentioned is illegal as you are not going to be tourists and you are not here for educational purposes. The government really is cracking down on people who are working here illegally. They flag multiple tourist entries and scrutinize Ed visas. If you are going to study Thai, you will actually need to study Thai and not just pay money for the Ed visa. I am not sure if you also can get your children dependent visas based on you studying Thai. Perhaps getting a Non B work visa and using a Thai lawyer to help you with your online business might actually be a better solution.

Homeschooling your kids is the only way you could possible afford to educate your kids. There are homeschool communities that can help you. I believe most of them have face book pages.

Cambodia is currently easier to stay in and with your financial limitations would probably be a better choice than CM. Perhaps do a little more research in the neighboring countries before you concrete plans for Thailand and Chiang Mai.

[mike324]

Thailand is certainly not as cheap as you probably thought, I highly recommend you reconsider for your own sake or your kids in case your visa issue does not work out. $1500 / month is not a reasonable amount of budget for family of 5, especially if you don't have your own car. I think a more reasonable budget would be at least $2500.

You may read that food costs only costs $1-$2 but trust me, your or your kids will not want to eat thai food 3 meals per day.

[thejcb]

Good plan for just one year then get the hell out. Nice experience for your family, do not make into your life though.

$1500 enough !

[SwissCheese]

Thanks everyone for your helpful responses.

You certainly brought up a lot of useful questions to chew on.

Let me quickly clarify a couple of things, which I didn't mention in my first post:

• We do not try to use any illegal means for staying in Thailand, so we are aware that one of us parrents would need to sit in class to learn Thai (but we were thinking, that this might help us to cut the costs for the visa- / border-runs)
• We are planning to homeschool, so no additional tuition costs would arrise
• It's not that we are "broke" and that we could not afford to pay for rent deposits or having an emergency fund
• We also are not planning to eat out three times as day, instead we did consider cooking at home and eating out irregularly
• We had the opportunity to visit Thailand as short-term tourists for a couple of times and liked people and the food. Combined with the supposedly lower costs of living, these seemed to us an ideal place for our sabbatical leave

Now, based on your suggestions, we certainly will have to clarifiy with the Thai embassy in Berne, whether we would be eligible for four dependant visas based on one ED-visa. We already have been told, that we would only get tourist visas good for two entries. And you did make it clear, that all of us would have to pay the associated extension fees, which does make this enterprise somewhat unreasonable.

Edited May 27, 2015 by SwissCheese

[MaeJoMTB]

Spain or France would seem more suitable.

[khunPer]

I cannot comment on the visa, but as I’ve been living I Thailand for some 10 years, I can comment on your planned expenses/budget.

Thailand has become little more expensive and may not be as cheap anymore, as some books/stories says. You can live for an average of 500 baht a day when home cooking, i.e. 15,000 a month; plus extras for laundry, cleaning stuff, personal needs etc. that will be at least 5,000 baht more.

A modest monthly budget for daily needs for a family of 2 + 3 kids will be in the level of 20,000 to 30,000 baht, depending of lifestyle.

Accommodation in CM is not that expensive, so renting a house for some 10,000 baht a month may be possible.

Transport and some outings with the kids will easily cost you 5,000 to 10,000 baht a month, if you wish to spend also just a little money.

Furthermore you may have some additional expenses and unforeseen, count not less than 5,000 baht a month.

So yes, you can live for around 45,000 baht a month, excluding school fees (you say you will be home teaching) and insurance – more likely you shall need 55,000 baht or more for a modest, but acceptable lifestyle.

You shall plan to include insurance in your budget, and you shall also plan for an emergency “rainy day” account with cash for instant access – the size is all depending of financial situation and wished level of security; but I would not like to stay in Thailand without instant access for some fair level of cash, preferably in a Thai bank account with an ATM-card. If you don’t already have an international health and personal accident insurance that covers Thailand for your family, you can begin with a travel insurance and thereafter buy one locally from for example Bupa (there may be others that are better), but they can be rather costly if you wish a reasonable level of protection plus repatriation. Insurance for a family can easily add another 10,000 baht a month to your budget.

The official rate of 65,000 baht a month, used for retirement visa extensions, fits quite well the needs for a modest lifestyle in Thailand.

Wish you good luck with your plans...

[Acharn]

Budget looks like a serious problem. I have guaranteed (pension) income around $2,300/mo. and am living quite comfortably, but I've been here almost continuously for over thirty years, have Thai family, and know where to go shopping. I lived in Bangkok for almost twenty years and found the cost of food was actually lower than other places where I've lived. I'm currently living in the small city of Nakhon Sawan in a house owned by my late wife's sister, so rent is low. I think you're going to find that for most of the year you will absolutely need air conditioning, and you must figure electricity cost of at least ฿1,000 a month. I think your proposed budget is unrealistic, probably impossible.

[SwissCheese]

Thanks all for your feedback,

I would be willing to top-up my budget to 65'000 bath / month if I could find a reasonable way to stay in the country without having to drag my whole family over the border every other month. Not because I couldn't do that, but becauses of the rather high visa- / travel fees that would accompany these border- / visa-runs.

So, I guess, for the start it might be reasonable to ask for a double re-entry visa to stay for four month (with one border run after 60 days), this would incur visa costs of approx. 6000 bath. The extension for another 30 days seem to be unreasonable, given the cost of almost 10'000 bath for the five of us.

We are not fixed in our ideas of living in Chiang Mai, so living in Bangkok or somewhere further south might definitely also be an option.

Does anyone have more insider-knowledge on the still open issue with the four dependant visas for one Non-ED visa? What's the hassle of opening up a small business (focused on online-services) for the period of our stay in Thailand to achieve a working visa? Has anyone in this forum done this and would recommend that?

Thanks also for the recommendation of the Bupa insurance company, I've already looked into them at an other occasion. Would you recommend a local insurance company or rather one from the western hemisphere?

[nzexpat]

Thanks all for your feedback,

I would be willing to top-up my budget to 65'000 bath / month if I could find a reasonable way to stay in the country without having to drag my whole family over the border every other month. Not because I couldn't do that, but becauses of the rather high visa- / travel fees that would accompany these border- / visa-runs.

So, I guess, for the start it might be reasonable to ask for a double re-entry visa to stay for four month (with one border run after 60 days), this would incur visa costs of approx. 6000 bath. The extension for another 30 days seem to be unreasonable, given the cost of almost 10'000 bath for the five of us.

We are not fixed in our ideas of living in Chiang Mai, so living in Bangkok or somewhere further south might definitely also be an option.

Does anyone have more insider-knowledge on the still open issue with the four dependant visas for one Non-ED visa? What's the hassle of opening up a small business (focused on online-services) for the period of our stay in Thailand to achieve a working visa? Has anyone in this forum done this and would recommend that?

Thanks also for the recommendation of the Bupa insurance company, I've already looked into them at an other occasion. Would you recommend a local insurance company or rather one from the western hemisphere?

Sorry to say this but you are very likely to be chasing an unachievable dream .

I do not have any "solutions" to offer but maybe someone with more knowledge will arrive in the near future !

[falkan]

House in Chiang Mai 8000 baht

Food 5 people 40000 baht

Misc 15000 baht

I think you could do it, But you need to live thai style a lot of cooking yourself and shopping at local market!

Won't be much money over for sending your kids to school or anything, But you can enjoy life like a true thai!

[manarak]

Thanks all for your feedback,

I would be willing to top-up my budget to 65'000 bath / month if I could find a reasonable way to stay in the country without having to drag my whole family over the border every other month. Not because I couldn't do that, but becauses of the rather high visa- / travel fees that would accompany these border- / visa-runs.

So, I guess, for the start it might be reasonable to ask for a double re-entry visa to stay for four month (with one border run after 60 days), this would incur visa costs of approx. 6000 bath. The extension for another 30 days seem to be unreasonable, given the cost of almost 10'000 bath for the five of us.

We are not fixed in our ideas of living in Chiang Mai, so living in Bangkok or somewhere further south might definitely also be an option.

Does anyone have more insider-knowledge on the still open issue with the four dependant visas for one Non-ED visa? What's the hassle of opening up a small business (focused on online-services) for the period of our stay in Thailand to achieve a working visa? Has anyone in this forum done this and would recommend that?

Thanks also for the recommendation of the Bupa insurance company, I've already looked into them at an other occasion. Would you recommend a local insurance company or rather one from the western hemisphere?

Why don't you just continue to pay your Swiss insurance?

[zeichen]

Rent would be at least 15k baht a month for a big enough place, more if you want air con in all rooms.

Even cooking for yourself you still would have a budget of at least 10-15k baht a month more if you want variety and foods you are used to eating.

Without a car in CM you will need to spend at least 200-300 baht round trip every time you want to go somewhere. That adds up quick.

there are so many other costs that will quickly add up.

so yes, if you can afford 65k baht a month budget you should be ok overall and still have some comforts. But remember this it is the start up costs that will cripple you. You will spend at least 150-200k baht the first month before you settle down to a normal budget. By the time you furnish your apartment, see all the things you need to see, spend a lot more on things than locals do until you learn all adds up.

As I stated before you will actually be illegal on a tourist visa. You are not tourists by running an internet business.

I have never heard of supporting dependents on an Ed visa for Thai. At the most you might get a dependent extension but no way you can get 4. Besides, you are not allowed to work on an Ed visa so the same issue applies. But contact Walen schools they are a sponsor here and advertise in big bold letters about Visa assistance.

Do you really want to stay in the country or stay legally in the country. Because technically Ed Visas and Tourist visas are not for people that want to live in Thailand for a year and operate an online business.

Contact a lawyer here if you want to set up your business and actually be legal. They will help get the papers you need and get Non B visas. You won't get caught if you choose to work here illegally but some people like to abide by the laws regardless of getting in trouble.

Bangkok will be more expensive by about 20% but transportation might actually be less if you take buses.

[khunPer]

»Would you recommend a local insurance company…«

Bupa Thailand branch have a web page here:

https://www.bupa.co.th/en/individuals.aspx

You shall properly look at the Platinum Plan to cover repatriation – in a worst-case scenario you may need costly repatriation back to Switzerland.

But do browse around; there may be better options...

»What's the hassle of opening up a small business...«

Unless an experienced lawyer or another forum-poster can come up with a solution, I will say the “hassle” equals “impossible”, if you think of working as self employed or free-lancer. You will need a Work Permit with an established company, qualified for foreign worker(s). There are several treads about this subject.

In short, if you wish to establish your own business in Thailand, you normally must partner with one or more Thais that shall hold 51% of the shares in a limited company; there may be branch exclusions, which a lawyer can inform you about. For being qualified to a foreign Work Permit the company need to employ 4 Thais and have a registered capital of not less than 2 million baht; furthermore often also an annual balance showing a profit (pay tax).

Some people working online for foreign customers only, seem to be doing it “under the radar” – so it’s sometimes mentioned in forum posts – but don’t speak too much about it; officially it’s illegal without a Work Permit.

I think user “zeichen” gave some good inputs.

[DividendGuy]

I agree with post#8, go and check out Danang, Vietnam. It will be cheap enough for your family to live on $1500 a month. The beaches are very beautiful, it is a safe area to live and they have a "Tesco Lotus" there. If I had children, that would be the place I would live. Overall, I know Asia and I think Vietnam is your better chance to be successful in your endeavor.

[kanook]

Welcome to the forum, SwissCheese, and if you do decide to come and live in Chiang Mai, I hope you and your family enjoy your stay here. You have probably already realized this, but moderators like ubonjoe and supermario give excellent visa advice. I just want to focus on the cost of living in Chiang Mai, because I feel some of the posts may lead you astray.I actually dislike the terms cheap and expensive when used to describe the cost of living in Thailand and specifically Chiang Mai. It is better to describe the the costs of living (comfortable standard) as having a much greater range than most places in the world. I don't doubt that other forum members spend what they say they do; I have many expat friends that overpay for most day to day items although surprisingly most expats in Chiang Mai seem to work hard at paying the local rate on accommodation. The social norm in Thailand is expensive means better quality and to many Thais if they can afford it they will usually choose the more expensive option. Unfortunately if you are an expat and married to or dating a Thai, it is easy to get sucked in to the same thought process and before you realize it you are actually spending a lot of money to live here. I will also offer a real world example. Your family needs to purchase toiletries (hand wash, shower gel, shampoo, toothbrushes etc). Most expats and Thais in CM will buy them at Watson's, Boots or the big supermarkets like Big C, Tesco Lotus, Tops or Rimping. I rarely see any foreigners in the modern Chiang Mai Direct and their pricing is even cheaper than Makro and you don't have to buy in bulk. Back to the question, can a family of 5 live on $1500 (50,000฿) in Chiang Mai? Let's apply logic; a very common salary for a university educated citizen living in CM is 15,000฿ per month. That means thousands of locals are raising families on 30,000฿ per month and most will also own a vehicle. I do agree that 50,000฿ is not ideal (I noticed that you are not against raising your budget to 65,000฿) for an expat family new to CM and you will most certainly spend more to set your family up the first few months. Feel free to send me a PM if you want the names and locations of places to shop (Thai and international brands) that price their products considerably lower than the usual Tesco, Big C, Home Pro, Rimping stores that most foreigners use.