Location of Forest Monasteries in CM, Lamphun, or Lampang Provinces?

[connda]

Does anyone know of any 'true', currently active forest monasteries in either Chiang Mai province, Lamphun province, or Lampang province.

By forest monestaries I mean Thai monasteries operating and structured in the Thai Forest Monastery tradition like that of Wat Nong Pha Pong in Ubon, which was established by the late Ajahn Chah.

I read enough Thai that I occasionally will see a road sign pointing to wats here in Northern Thailand labelled as 'Wat Pha' this or 'Wat Pha' that, but the ones I've seen up to now may at one time in the past have been 'true forest monasteries' but are now so in name only.

I need to qualify this: I am not looking for the equivalent of Wat Pha Nanachat or wats that have short residential programs for foreigners. There is no equivalent to Wat Pha Nanachat here in Northern Thailand, and I know most if not all of the wats offering 21 to 28 day 'meditation' retreats for foreigners. I'm not looking for Caucasian monks nor I'm I looking for a retreat.

What I am looking for are Thai wats that are holding true to the 'Thai Buddhist forest tradition' as apposed to what I see in virtually every wat I've encountered in Northern Thailand which are either money making machines or rural wats that very simply exist to accommodate the spiritual needs (Buddhism and animism) to the surrounding villages (as apposed to a Wat that is supported by the generosity of the villages to assist the resident monks who practice the strict form of Vinaya in their spiritual quest). There is a difference.

I don't have any real expectations of finding a true forest monastery in Chiang Mai, Lamphun, or Lampang provinces; they're a bit like long lost mythical entities. But than again, life does hold its surprises!

[hookedondhamma]

I'm sorry they've been difficult for you to find. A while back I went up north to take care of sangha-related issues and visited quite a few. Unfortunately I didn't remember the names of hardly any.

I'm sure you're well aware that these temples which you seek are desolate and quiet, devoid of foreign tourists and monks that love to socialize. Every once in a while a white-clothed layperson will come for training, etc.

Would it be too much to ask why? The last foreigner that requested to go to such a temple decided to try and debate quite of bit of what was going on, basically trying to show his superior western thinking - quite an embarassment.

You've ordained before - could you ask any monks if they know of the type of temple you seek? Quite a few monks know each other through other monks.

[Kan Win]

Sorry no name of this place, but in Kanchanaburi there was a Japanese Monk there for a long time and left for his home country, The Temple still is there in a Forest. I think it was on the 323 road going to Sai Yok.

Hope some one will know this place.

Win

[T_Dog]

There is one not far from the Ping River in Mae Taeng well south of the road to Mae Ngat Dam past Bann Hang Dong village called Wat See Lamming. Very rustic collection of huts, no idol images, and I don't think they even had electricity in there. Will PM you with gps coordinates next time I go past there as it is difficult to find without local knowledge.

[connda]

I'm sorry they've been difficult for you to find. A while back I went up north to take care of sangha-related issues and visited quite a few. Unfortunately I didn't remember the names of hardly any.

I'm sure you're well aware that these temples which you seek are desolate and quiet, devoid of foreign tourists and monks that love to socialize. Every once in a while a white-clothed layperson will come for training, etc.

Would it be too much to ask why? The last foreigner that requested to go to such a temple decided to try and debate quite of bit of what was going on, basically trying to show his superior western thinking - quite an embarassment.

You've ordained before - could you ask any monks if they know of the type of temple you seek? Quite a few monks know each other through other monks.

Would it be too much to ask why? The last foreigner that requested to go to such a temple decided to try and debate quite of bit of what was going on, basically trying to show his superior western thinking - quite an embarassment.

No problem. I'd be one of those white-clothed, laypersons who would occasionally visit and spend time in training. The wat I spent my time at after my ordination was completely Thai, only one monk could speak passible English, but I got by speaking Thai. It was a money making machine, and all of the naan had iPhones and generally walked around with earbuds in place listerning to who knows what. During the rainey season, monks would head to 7/11 to buy food instead of venturing out on bindabat in the rain. Lol. So, I would just perfer associating with a Sangha where the monks follow the Vinaya and money is not a priority, and large, grandious temples are not either. Just monks attempting to truly follow the path, and me just a 'paa-kaow' attempting to truly follow the path and support the Sangha, not for merit, but just because it's the right thing to do.

The closest thing I've found here in the North is Wat Tam Dtong south of Chom Tong bording the Op Luang National Forest near Baan Mon Hin off of the Highway 108. They have a pretty isolated wat in a forest setting, along with a fairly strict meditation program for lay-persons. Quite a bit of walking meditation headed up by the resident maechees. Very much geared toward Thais and it's actually a very popular retreat location. I'd highly recommend it for any foreigners who have a basic handle on the Thai language and culture, and who wish to delve deeper into how monks, maechees, and laypeople interact in a retreat setting. But, they also have maechees doing animistic stuff that's akin to exorcism and spirit possession. It's difficult to get away from the Animism and over-indulgence in superstition and ritual. My wife eats it up, up it's just not my cup of tea. I'm happy with a kuti to meditation it, morning and evening chanting, morning and evening choirs, one meal in morning, occasional dharma talks, and a lot of personal meditation practice. Hence, why I would like to find a functioning forest monastery.

Edited May 29, 2015 by connda

[connda]

I'm sorry they've been difficult for you to find. A while back I went up north to take care of sangha-related issues and visited quite a few. Unfortunately I didn't remember the names of hardly any.

I'm sure you're well aware that these temples which you seek are desolate and quiet, devoid of foreign tourists and monks that love to socialize. Every once in a while a white-clothed layperson will come for training, etc.

Would it be too much to ask why? The last foreigner that requested to go to such a temple decided to try and debate quite of bit of what was going on, basically trying to show his superior western thinking - quite an embarassment.

You've ordained before - could you ask any monks if they know of the type of temple you seek? Quite a few monks know each other through other monks.

Would it be too much to ask why? The last foreigner that requested to go to such a temple decided to try and debate quite of bit of what was going on, basically trying to show his superior western thinking - quite an embarassment.

No problem. I'd be one of those white-clothed, laypersons who would occasionally visit and spend time in training. The wat I spent my time at after my ordination was completely Thai, only one monk could speak passible English, but I got by speaking Thai. It was a money making machine, and all of the naan had iPhones and generally walked around with earbuds in place listerning to who knows what. During the rainey season, monks would head to 7/11 to buy food instead of venturing out on bindabat in the rain. Lol. So, I would just perfer associating with a Sangha where the monks follow the Vinaya and money is not a priority, and large, grandious temples are not either. Just monks attempting to truly follow the path, and me just a 'paa-kaow' attempting to truly follow the path and support the Sangha, not for merit, but just because it's the right thing to do.

The closest thing I've found here in the North is Wat Tam Dtong south of Chom Tong bording the Op Luang National Forest near Baan Mon Hin off of the Highway 108. They have a pretty isolated wat in a forest setting, along with a fairly strict meditation program for lay-persons. Quite a bit of walking meditation headed up by the resident maechees. Very much geared toward Thais and it's actually a very popular retreat location. I'd highly recommend it for any foreigners who have a basic handle on the Thai language and culture, and who wish to delve deeper into how monks, maechees, and laypeople interact in a retreat setting. But, they also have maechees doing animistic stuff that's akin to exorcism and spirit possession. It's difficult to get away from the Animism and over-indulgence in superstition and ritual. My wife eats it up, up it's just not my cup of tea. I'm happy with a kuti to meditation it, morning and evening chanting, morning and evening choirs, one meal in morning, occasional dharma talks, and a lot of personal meditation practice. Hence, why I would like to find a functioning forest monastery.

BTW, There is a tremendous difference between what goes on at the average Thai Wat here in Thailand, and a Wat such as WPN or WNPP in Udon. I'm a follower of the late Ajahn Chah, and the translations of his talks did have a profound effect on my personal growth as a Buddhist, especially as an American whose life has been spent in the Bible Belt and in other communities where Christianity is pretty much 'it'. There ain't no Buddhist temples where I came from out in rural Nowhere-ville USA. Try establishing a meditation practice and hone an understanding of Buddhism without the benefit of a teacher or a community. Lol Difficult, but not impossible. Prior to Ajahn Chah I did read works from Stephan Levin (A Gradual Awakening was Buddhism 101 for me), Ram Dass, and then students of Ajahn Chah like Jack Kornfield and Joesph Goldstein (and at that time I didn't know of Ajahn Chah himself) The fact that I ended up in Thailand has a lot to do with the fact that I gravitated sort of naturally to Theravada Buddhism. Oh, but did the wheels come off the buggy after about two days in Bangkok. “Why are those monks here in Future World buying electronics?” “Did that monk just buy a Lottery ticket?” “Why does that monk have a billfold full of cash?” Cognitive Dissonance set in big time Lol!. Unfortunately, the picture of a Thai Monk that I had in my mind's eye didn't fit with reality. It just became something I needed to figure out.

Now, over time, I really do understand. And I just go with the flow. Would I openly criticize monks and their practices at the Wat I stayed at while I was ordained? Never. The abbot had immense generosity to take me in, as a foreigner, and to allow me the opportunity to participate as a member of the Sangha after having been rejected by a number of other Thai Wats in the Chiang Mai area. I am in his debt. And although I was a bit of a curiosity, the Sangha took me in likewise and helped me stumble along in my practice and in gaining knowledge. I simply took money that was given to me and gave it back to the Wat after I disrobed. The Vinaya's guidance regarding money is simply to keep the monks mindful of attachment. What I thought was sad in a way was the second night after staying a the Wat, they had a merit making ceremony where laity brought 'money trees' to give to the Wat. Money everywhere, and people expecting things in return. Many people wanted me to perform a blessing ceremony over their gift, but I couldn't. I had the words in Thai, and I read Thai but really really slowly. It was just...interesting. Monks excited about receiving money, laity disappointed because they gifts had not received recognition...and I was just like – wow.....! I chose to go back to my room and simply get out of the fire Lol. Later on, one of the resident monks comes and gives me a wad of cash. I told him to keep it, but no, no no...for you, for you. So the money goes into an envelope that I later gave back to the Wat. I'm glad I had the chance to see that. I'm wiser because of it. However, I also think it is a bit off from what Buddha had in mind for the Sangha. So where do I talk about it? In forums like this.

Honestly, I'm quiet at home in our village Wat and at our Wat in Chiang Mai. During rain retreats I'm a weekly visitor during 'wan phra'. And my perception of the way laity and the monks interact? It just is.

But I'd still like to find a forest monastery. Now is that an attachment? Could be!

Think of it this way. When I encountered Buddhism, I had no formal teacher...ever. But I established a practice. Reflecting back on that practice years later, was it in anyway flawed by a lack of a formal teacher? Not that I can see. I'm fully functional within the Thai Sanghas that I'm a member of (as laity). The search of 'the forest monestery' is maybe a search for the "Holy Grail". I may never find it, but the mythology inspires my daily being. I'll keep looking, and we'll see what pops up.

Edited May 29, 2015 by connda

[hookedondhamma]

I see where you're coming from. I asked one of my friends but his answers wouldn't coincide with your reasons.

You're looking strictly in the chiang mai area right?

[connda]

There is one not far from the Ping River in Mae Taeng well south of the road to Mae Ngat Dam past Bann Hang Dong village called Wat See Lamming. Very rustic collection of huts, no idol images, and I don't think they even had electricity in there. Will PM you with gps coordinates next time I go past there as it is difficult to find without local knowledge.

Thanks! GPS would be great!

[VincentRJ]

Connda,

Interesting to read about your experiences in temples where monks seemed to be obsessed with money, and the laity obsessed with signs of merit that their donations might provide.

I wonder if the Santi Asoke community at Ubon Ratchathani would qualify as a true forest monastery.

https://isantraveller.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/ratchathani-asoke-buddhist-community-ubon/

Apparently, the monks in the Santi Asoke communities do not accept any donations from the laity. Money is provided through the sale of organically grown food to the local community at good-value prices.

[connda]

Connda,

Interesting to read about your experiences in temples where monks seemed to be obsessed with money, and the laity obsessed with signs of merit that their donations might provide.

I wonder if the Santi Asoke community at Ubon Ratchathani would qualify as a true forest monastery.

https://isantraveller.wordpress.com/2011/01/12/ratchathani-asoke-buddhist-community-ubon/

Apparently, the monks in the Santi Asoke communities do not accept any donations from the laity. Money is provided through the sale of organically grown food to the local community at good-value prices.

Interesting.

[connda]

I see where you're coming from. I asked one of my friends but his answers wouldn't coincide with your reasons.

You're looking strictly in the chiang mai area right?

Not necessarily. I live in Lamphun province close to the Lampang province border. Think 'Northern Thailand'. I can travel within the Northern Thailand region.

Edited June 5, 2015 by connda

[roath]

I can highly recommend Pa Auk monastery, which is a true forest monastery, and have instruction in English although this is in Burma which isn't so helpful. I am hoping that with ASEAN on the horizon, they will open the borders and let you drive over which wouldn't be that far then.

In Thailand, a friend of mine has recommended Wat Tham Doi Tohn http://vimuttidhamma.org/.

There is also Wat Umong and Wat Ram Poeng both in CM which are highly regarded in terms of the seriousness of their practice as well as Chom Tong which you have already mentioned

You can also check out the Dhammathai,org website which lists a number of temples and some background information about each one which is very helpful

[numloc]

Check out Wat Doi Pha Som in Samoeng - I think it might be of interest to you.

The two first links below is for a 360 degree picture (click and drag) - it has a link in top right corner "Show map" which takes you to the exact location on Google Earth.

The abbot is a (thai) engineer educated at USA, the temple runs several programs to improve the living for nearby villagers, dam building, forest fire fighting, and several agricultural teaching projects.

http://www.360cities.net/image/interior-of-wat-doi-pa-som-samoeng-thailand

http://www.360cities.net/image/abbot-of-watdoipasom-equi

https://www.facebook.com/doiphasom?pnref=lhc

[arjunadawn]

I enjoyed your post and your reasoning, and I understand. I experienced the same dissonance years ago before finally giving up and community type experience.

I wish you the best for the future and good company.

[umbanda]

In Lampang I visited one located on the very countryside in the way to Ngao. Sorry I do not know the name, I was taked by local people. Not frequented by foreigners. What I remember is that it is a very big sleeping Buddha and a long old boat in exhibition that was found at the bottom of the river running by the place, and was the king's boat hundred of years ago. Very interesting and unique.

Another place, I visited by my self, and it is named on a Lampang City brochure. It is a monatery and Buddhism school for novices, named the larger in Thailand. It is located by the highway 1 on the way to Ngao, one hour from Lampang. In this one, if it is not what you are lokking for, probably you will get info about.

The Asoke Community in Chiang Dao may be interesting, and very well known because its leader political activities, but I do not believe that it is a monastery.

Edited June 6, 2015 by umbanda

[connda]

Check out Wat Doi Pha Som in Samoeng - I think it might be of interest to you.

The two first links below is for a 360 degree picture (click and drag) - it has a link in top right corner "Show map" which takes you to the exact location on Google Earth.

The abbot is a (thai) engineer educated at USA, the temple runs several programs to improve the living for nearby villagers, dam building, forest fire fighting, and several agricultural teaching projects.

http://www.360cities.net/image/interior-of-wat-doi-pa-som-samoeng-thailand

http://www.360cities.net/image/abbot-of-watdoipasom-equi

https://www.facebook.com/doiphasom?pnref=lhc

Thanks for the link. Samoeng is a nice day trip. Might head out there with the wife. However, it's not a forest monastery. These monasteries state the word 'forest' (bpàa or ป่า) in their name. The way I read this monastery's name is Temple of Buddhist relics on the Orange Cliff Mountain. No mention of being a forest monastery. And it sounds like the abbot is a community activist helping the surrounding villages. Very admirable. Worth a visit, for sure.

Edited June 9, 2015 by connda

[connda]

I can highly recommend Pa Auk monastery, which is a true forest monastery, and have instruction in English although this is in Burma which isn't so helpful. I am hoping that with ASEAN on the horizon, they will open the borders and let you drive over which wouldn't be that far then.

In Thailand, a friend of mine has recommended Wat Tham Doi Tohn http://vimuttidhamma.org/.

There is also Wat Umong and Wat Ram Poeng both in CM which are highly regarded in terms of the seriousness of their practice as well as Chom Tong which you have already mentioned

You can also check out the Dhammathai,org website which lists a number of temples and some background information about each one which is very helpful

Thanks. Wat Tham Doi Tohn is probably much like Wat Ram Poeng and Wat Umong where they separate the foreigners from Thai. For the foreigners it's basic introduction to some form of meditation (anapanasati, scanning, vipassana) with little or no introduction to 'Thai Buddhism' that is practiced by Thais. Then after their stay, it's "Good Luck" farang, and you're sent on your way without any future support in the oft chance that Buddhism suddenly seemed to be a way of life you'd like to follow. There is very, very little support from the Thai Monastic community for foreigners who decide to 'walk the path'. I find this to be sad. You find your own way, or you leave the path. Anyway, just guessing, but I bet I'm pretty accurate with that assumption.

Anyway, I'm not looking for retreats. I've done plenty in both Thailand and the US. Now I just maintain a lay practice. If I again do retreats, I'll head to a Thai monastery with my wife, where they separate men and women, not Thais and farangs. I've learned to be quite comfortable in wats that are all Thai. Why? Because there is not much in the way of other options. I live in Northern Thailand; not Ubon Ratchatani if you catch my drift.

So, why am I looking for 'true forest monasteries' here in Northern Thailand? Truthfully, I really can't explain it - at least not in a way most people will grasp; Let's just say I need to. Nothing more complicated then that. It's a desire that I lightly play with. Perhaps it's not really that important. For the moment, it just - is.

[connda]

I enjoyed your post and your reasoning, and I understand. I experienced the same dissonance years ago before finally giving up and community type experience.

I wish you the best for the future and good company.

Arjunadawn.

Yeah, that's a good word for it: dissonance. A dissonance that drives volition. Yep!

Don't worry too much, I'll find my way. Sometimes you need to complicate things in order to uncomplicated them; to let things go; to accept what is.

Thanks!