Depression

[impulse]

Placebo effect perhaps?

I have always got rid of 'depression' by first following a few suggestions - exercise everyday, get enough sleep by going to bed at the same time, good diet, trying to help those less fortunate than myself. Strangely it goes away all by itself.

That's fine if it is a behavioural condition. However, if it is organic in nature, it is not as easy as that.

Some people do suffer with chemical imbalances as they age or suffer other medical problems.

+1. I have no doubt that it's all about chemical imbalance, and I can eventually train my body and brain to compensate for that chemical imbalance through years of trial and error with various techniques and diet as discussed in multiple posts.

Or, I can take a pill that re-balances the chemicals and improves the quality of my life today.

The OP got relief immediately from the meds his doctor prescribed. I'm just not smart enough to suggest he abandon that in favor of something that may and may not work after years of experimenting.

[catman20]

maybe you are also stuck in a rut with your wife overweight little or no sex, why don't you try to change the things in your life that you can.

[impulse]

maybe you are also stuck in a rut with your wife overweight little or no sex, why don't you try to change the things in your life that you can.

One thing I've learned the hard way is to never make life changing decisions on my own when the depression is on me.

Maybe with some input and feedback from professional counselors and trusted friends who understand the affliction. But never on my own.

Depression clouds good judgment. Who is to say the lack of sex isn't a direct result of the depression?

Edited June 1, 2015 by impulse

[Sawan Chan 7]

It is very uplifting that there are so many positive, helpful, supportive comments - I thank you all very much!

I have been economical with the truth. I never mentioned that I am on the final stages of a diazepam withdrawal, which is difficult(to say the least) on 4 mg a day from 15 mg a day for many years, something I said I would do when I retired from a quite stressful career. Depression is one of the many withdrawal symptoms of protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. I am kinda hoping that if the medication I got keeps me from depression I can then continue with my taper and then stopp the anti-depressant.

I think exercise is a vital thing that I'm not doing but have done most of my life, being an ex marathon runner, but my legs/knees can't take it any more. I'll start swimming or cycling soon.

I went to the local psychiatric hospital which I live near and speaking Thai is no problem as I've been living here most my life. Frankly. I trust them more there compared to the private hospitals who are more concerned about money.

[Valentine]

One thing lacking here are self help groups for depression. There is AA & although I am sure alcoholics suffer depression the rest of us have other causes. I would not mind starting a group here in Phuket (please note I have no qualifications) but surely there must be some panacea in meeting & talking with people in an informal setting. Whether it be full blown depression, anxiety, stress, marital or financial problems it cannot hurt to meet in a group & support each other. If anyone is interested please feel free to send a PM (confidentiality is assured).

[impulse]

One thing lacking here are self help groups for depression. There is AA & although I am sure alcoholics suffer depression the rest of us have other causes. I would not mind starting a group here in Phuket (please note I have no qualifications) but surely there must be some panacea in meeting & talking with people in an informal setting. Whether it be full blown depression, anxiety, stress, marital or financial problems it cannot hurt to meet in a group & support each other. If anyone is interested please feel free to send a PM (confidentiality is assured).

I applaud you with that. I have found that getting out and interacting with people causes a marked improvement in the way I feel. But it's a viscous circle. I feel crappy, so I don't go out. So I feel crappier.

One of the issues with settling into a place like Thailand, especially in retirement, is the lack of meaningful personal interaction on a daily basis. I don't mean buying vegetables, I mean talking about what's going on our my lives. That's tough to do when living among people who don't share a common background, or even language.

Still not a substitute for professional remediation, but a great idea.

[Valentine]

One thing lacking here are self help groups for depression. There is AA & although I am sure alcoholics suffer depression the rest of us have other causes. I would not mind starting a group here in Phuket (please note I have no qualifications) but surely there must be some panacea in meeting & talking with people in an informal setting. Whether it be full blown depression, anxiety, stress, marital or financial problems it cannot hurt to meet in a group & support each other. If anyone is interested please feel free to send a PM (confidentiality is assured).

I applaud you with that. I have found that getting out and interacting with people causes a marked improvement in the way I feel. But it's a viscous circle. I feel crappy, so I don't go out. So I feel crappier.

One of the issues with settling into a place like Thailand, especially in retirement, is the lack of meaningful personal interaction on a daily basis. I don't mean buying vegetables, I mean talking about what's going on our my lives. That's tough to do when living among people who don't share a common background, or even language.

Still not a substitute for professional remediation, but a great idea.

Most Thais will not admit to suffering depression even if they recognized it & seem unable to truly express their emotions hence the sudden explosions of uncontrolled temper on occasion which can lead to serious injury &/or death to others. There are no doubt good & compassionate doctors but the majority have no access to them.

[Breeecher]

Sawan Chan 7, you can always try some natural forms of anti depressants. They are more gentle on your body but can help greatly with depression, anxiety, insomnia etc. Google Camu Camu, Mucuna, Noni, Acai Berry and Cordyceps. Also look at your diet, our stomach is our other brain and if you don't feed it right, it doesn't make the right things we need and it doesn't send the right signals to our brain. It can affect our whole body and our moods etc....I have some depression and insomnia, well I did until I got some supplements from Good Karma Thailand, now I feel great and have lots of energy and sleep if greatly improved. It makes life so much better.

. What were the Supplements???

Hi, I take Noni, Mucuna and Cordyceps regularly. I juice in the mornings and add a small spoon of camu camu and acai berry powder (but not everyday).....I have had some mainstream anti0depressants but I find they really do turn me into a bit of a zombie.....so am going organic and natural and my body is loving it and my brain!!

[Breeecher]

It is very uplifting that there are so many positive, helpful, supportive comments - I thank you all very much!

I have been economical with the truth. I never mentioned that I am on the final stages of a diazepam withdrawal, which is difficult(to say the least) on 4 mg a day from 15 mg a day for many years, something I said I would do when I retired from a quite stressful career. Depression is one of the many withdrawal symptoms of protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. I am kinda hoping that if the medication I got keeps me from depression I can then continue with my taper and then stopp the anti-depressant.

I think exercise is a vital thing that I'm not doing but have done most of my life, being an ex marathon runner, but my legs/knees can't take it any more. I'll start swimming or cycling soon.

I went to the local psychiatric hospital which I live near and speaking Thai is no problem as I've been living here most my life. Frankly. I trust them more there compared to the private hospitals who are more concerned about money.

Sawan Chan 7, please google Noni if you do nothing else....it can help with addictions/withdrawls....I get it from Good Karma Thailand, very good, natural organic product...

[Neeranam]

Noni actually grows wild in some parts of Thailand. I have a couple of trees - called yaam here.

[DogNo1]

Well, benzodiazepine withdrawal is very tricky. I suggest that you get some professional help with this. There are benzo withdrawal schedules on the web. Sometimes switching to a less potent one than diazepam such as lorazepam can be a step. Why do you want to withdraw completely? Is your memory or daily functioning being affected? There may be no problem with continuing a low dose of a short-acting benzodiazepine if it doesn't adversely affect you. Please see "Withdrawal" in the following article. http://www.druginfo.adf.org.au/drug-facts/benzodiazepines

There are, of course, people who take low-dose tranquilizers all of their lives without significant impairment. If you are not impaired, you may want to consider this. It might not be necessary to withdraw completely. Whatever you choose to do, good luck but it's best to skip the supplements. Their contents are not scientifically verified and a recent investigation found that 75% of the supplements on the shelves at big stores in New York contained NONE of the supplement on the label. That's zero, nada, nothing! Instead they contained unlisted ingredients that were mainly fillers. Google the New York Times article published in its Health section about 3-4 months ago. Furthermore, the effects of most supplements have not been subjected to rigorous medical studies so the effects of the real supplements, if there was any in the bottles, are not verified.

[micmichd]

All psychotropic drugs have side effects, and benzodiazepine is highly addictive. Besides that they might affect your ability to orientation, your sexual libido, actually everything which makes life valuable. I stopped taking benzodiazepines, too, when I came to Thailand. I'm not a machine.

Edited June 1, 2015 by micmichd

[cdmtdm]

go out today and buy that Bicycle , join a social cycling group, let the endorphins do the work !!! goodluck and remember you are not alone ....

[Mr Somtam]

It is very uplifting that there are so many positive, helpful, supportive comments - I thank you all very much!

I have been economical with the truth. I never mentioned that I am on the final stages of a diazepam withdrawal, which is difficult(to say the least) on 4 mg a day from 15 mg a day for many years, something I said I would do when I retired from a quite stressful career. Depression is one of the many withdrawal symptoms of protracted benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. I am kinda hoping that if the medication I got keeps me from depression I can then continue with my taper and then stopp the anti-depressant.

I think exercise is a vital thing that I'm not doing but have done most of my life, being an ex marathon runner, but my legs/knees can't take it any more. I'll start swimming or cycling soon.

I went to the local psychiatric hospital which I live near and speaking Thai is no problem as I've been living here most my life. Frankly. I trust them more there compared to the private hospitals who are more concerned about money.

Going from diazepam to anti-depressants? Why not taper off the diazepam VERY slowly? And excercise, meditate, yoga, healthy food.

[Sheryl]

It sounds like he IS tapering slowly. He is also doing this under medical supervision. He has a severe depression (in part probably an effect of the benzos --- in itself a reason to get completely off them, contrary to one poster's suggestion) and his doctors have prescribed the antidepressent.

[konying]

I do not believe medication is the key to cure a depression.

OP has identified the source of it, best to either write down all OP feels or talk it out and look for solutions to the problem , instead of medicating it.

Just my opinion.

[micmichd]

Would it really be dangerous to stop at a sudden?

The half time of diazepam is quite long, so it should take about 3 days to get it tapered out anyway. Maybe his behaviour might get a bit bizarre during the withdrawal period, but if he announces it in advance and has someone to care for him (his wife) it might be oK. I would take the risk and try to get the poison out of my brain immediately.

Edited June 2, 2015 by micmichd

[Sheryl]

Yes, it would really be dangerous. It would also be so severely unpleasant that it would likely fail

From his posts he has quite a bit of experience trying to get off benzos and he is also under the care and advice of doctors who specialize in it.

Those arguing against his taking antidepressents need to understand we are talking about depression in the context of benzo addiction and withdrawal which is a highly specific situation not to be confused with simple depression.

It really sounds to me like he is getting appropriate profesional care and advice from tv memberd to ignore what his doctors have advised, however well intentioned, are counterproductive.

[micmichd]

There's dissenting medical opinions, as far as I can see.

One from the Western style hospital, and one from a Traditional Thai doctor.

Western psychiatrists center around pharma. They actually produce the zombies they pretend to cure. Lots of money to be made this way, good for egoistic careers, but not helpful for the victims of this system.

If your Western style psychiatriy would be really so good, then why is the suicide rate in Western countries higher than in Traditional Thailand?

And why are more and more people declared mentally sick in the West every year?

Pray tell.

Edited June 2, 2015 by micmichd

[Sheryl]

There's dissenting medical opinions, as far as I can see.

One from the Western style hospital, and one from a Traditional Thai doctor....

I do not understand what you re talking about.

The OP is being treated by modern Thai doctros. he has not been seen by a "Traditional Thai doctor" and I am not ware that Thai traditional medicine treats benzo addiction.

[Sheryl]

An off topic post has been removed.

The topic is depression in the context of benzo withdrawal.

[micmichd]

No, topic is also depression in the context of long-term use of benzos.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzodiazepine_withdrawal_syndrome

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of_long-term_benzodiazepine_use

Following this, there's a good chance that once addicted to benzos, you would never be able to get rid of depression anymore. Benzos are a perfect example how psychiatrists produce a disease they pretend to cure.

Better stay away from both: from pharma and their dealers.

With a strong will (and a little help from your friends) it should be possible to get rid of drug addiction. I did it 2 times (heroin and benzos, 1969 and 2013), psychiatrists actually wanted to force me to continue with benzos.

Maybe there's no correlation at all between depression and benzos, but a multi-billion dollar industry would never admit this.

I would advise to get rid of benzos immediately, maybe the depression will disappear then. Alternatively I would try one of the traditional Thai medicine (like Noni) and give a damn about the pharma lobby and their FDA.

Edited June 2, 2015 by micmichd

[micmichd]

Sorry, I meant "pushers" when I wrote "dealers". They're using violence.

[DogNo1]

The second Wikipedia article that micmichd cited is interesting because it clearly states that some people benefit from lifelong use of benzodiazepines without developing a tolerance to them or suffering from their side effects. It further states that side effects from taking benzodiazepines occur only in a small number of people. The first article describes the long and tedious way that people must be weaned off benzos. Near the end of the article it does recommend replacing a long-acting benzodiazepine with a short acting one such as replacing Diazepam with an appropriate dose of lorazepam. Side effects would probably decrease as a result. Also in the article, it mentions that SSRI antidepressants are not helpful in reducing benzodiazepine withdrawal symptoms.

In short, changing to a short - acting benzodiazepine may be sufficient to reduce side effects to few or none, depending on the individual, so that total withdrawal is not necessary.

I really don't understand the vehemence with which it is claimed that total withdrawal is necessary. A reading of the article "Effects of Long-term Benzodiazepine Use" will reveal that this isn't the case. I also don't understand the blanket condemnation of Western Psychiatrists. Most the ones whom I know are not simply pill-pushers. They prescribe appropriate treatments for individual patients. What is suspect is the use of supplements that are often touted to remedy a multitude of conditions - sort of like the snake oil of the old west.

I recommend, as sheryl does, that the OP continue to be treated as his doctor prescribes. In the meantime, he can read up on the relative benefits and risks of benzodiazepine drug usage and withdrawal from them and perhaps conclude that he can take a moderate dose of a short acting benzodiazepine with little risk.

[micmichd]

Each individual is different. The OP is lucky because he obviously already consulted different doctors with (hopefully) dissenting opinions, so he has a choice.

I didn't have that choice. One psychiatrist noticed my somewhat strange behaviour, but never listened to me. They simply called it psychotic. When I told them I stopped benzos because I wanted to marry in Thailand they took this as a proof that I really was psychotic. When I told them that the time for marriage had come and I want to go to Thailand right now they incapacitated me and forced me to stay there.

They even added another psycho drug (haloperidol) to benzos just to make me fit into their organization, although I told them that I was used to work in International IT with people in 3 continents and therefore have a different sleeping pattern.

They came ul with all kinds of diagnostic instruments (CT, MRT, LP) just to check the reason for my "psychosis" - and made me pay for their unwanted and unnecessary "services"

It took me half a year to get an official second opinion. This doctor found out that there was actually nothing wrong with me at all.

But my reputation was ruined, and it still is, because even my "liberal friends" believed the doctor from Heidelberg University Hospital more than me.

This can happen if you rely on one doctor only.

Good for the OP that he went public on this Forum.

I didn't have this chance, those psycho-clowns locked my computer away.

[Neeranam]

I taped off 100-mg + diazepam addiction.

I did it very slowly as there is less chance of failure.

Coming off benzos is the second WORST to come off. Methadone bring the WORST. This includes amphetamines, heroin, alcohol, cocaine etc.

Tapering from 15mg it is recommended to cut 10% every couple of weeks.

When you get to 2mg a 10% cut is difficult to do.many do it by a titration method. I didn't but broke a tablet into many pieces. Many day this last part of the taper is the hardest.I agree but the symptoms were more psychological than physical. Only depersonalization, derealization, depression, and a few others!!

Don't stay on such a small dose. Ask people who have been on small doses for years who finally come off. They say they can't remember many things in their life.

"It is only when you awake that you are aware you were sleeping"

Those who disagree imho don't want to face the underlying causes prefer to live a Half-Life.

Be brave, attack it with all resources mentioned, and remember "the only easy out is through". You have come this far, it would not be wise to remain a zombie for such a small amount.

[micmichd]

Yes, if you want to be free you have to be tough.

Once you really stopped with benzos, you might feel well good for psychiatrists. Psychiatrists wouldn't be what they are if they wouldn't have a psychiatric label for well-being. They might call you a "maniac" and, of course, come up with some psycho drugs again to cure you from "mania".

Up to you, if you want to be free and maybe labelled a maniac, or if you want to remain a zombie in a system that only accepts the average.

[Neeranam]

Yes, if you want to be free you have to be tough.

Once you really stopped with benzos, you might feel well good for psychiatrists. Psychiatrists wouldn't be what they are if they wouldn't have a psychiatric label for well-being. They might call you a "maniac" and, of course, come up with some psycho drugs again to cure you from "mania".

Up to you, if you want to be free and maybe labelled a maniac, or if you want to remain a zombie in a system that only accepts the average.

Why worry what other people think? Be true to oneself.

[DogNo1]

I recommend that you read the articles attached by micmichd. I don't think that many of the commenters have read them. If your objective is to get completely off of any benzodiazepine, that's up to you. The Long-term use article clearly states that many people take benzodiazepines with no significant side effects. I take lorazepam in the evenings and only experience sluggishness the next day if I've taken too much too late at night. When I do feel sluggish, an espresso or two kicks the cortisol into high gear and I feel OK.

I'm sorry if micmichd was abused by a psychiatrist but that doesn't mean that all psychotropic medicine is bad. Some people really need it. Also, all drugs, including supplements, have side effects. Some people truly do need their medication. In that case, the trick is to find the right combination and dosage that allows the drugs to have their optimum effect with the fewest side effects. I can handle the side effects of my lorazepam and don't find them disturbing. The side effect of the Harnal (Flomax) that I take for my prostate made my cataract surgery tricky with floppy - eye syndrome but the doctor at Bumrungrad handled it well. Good luck and happiness to the OP.

[Sheryl]

The OP has not expressed a desire to remain on benzos for life and had become addicted to them, suggesting that he is not among those who are able to safely use them long term.

he is not being treated with an SSRI. He is being treated with a tricyclic. To me it sounds like his doctors know exactly what they are doing.

Rather than urge him to stay on a drug he has become addicted to, it would be more constructive to support his intention to get off all psychotropics.