Non-EU spouse visiting the UK with Swiss husband.

[bobrussell]

Rather than hijack another thread, I would appreciate comments regarding the required paperwork.

I was under the impression that recent changes confirmed that a non-EU spouse is allowed to travel to the UK based on non-EU passport and residence permit, perhaps with a copy of the marriage certificate.

The .gov website is horrendously useless. It does not clarify if an EEA family permit is required or not. It does not direct you to a specific form for a family permit but just to the standard visit visa site on visa4uk.

The European court appears to have directed the UK authorities to allow freedom of movement but this seems not to apply to Switzerland.

I cannot see it is legal to require the EEA spouse to disclose financial details and personal ones such as do you live together!

Bright ideas that don't involve phoning a premium rate phone number?

Thanks!

[Donutz]

You're probably refering to the recent ECJ case of McCarty, but that was regarding non-EU spouses holding a residence card issued under the Freedom of Movement directive (2004/38), forcing the UK to finally allow those people who have a residence card which reads "family member of an EU/EEA national" to enter visa free.

However, regular non-EU spouses would still need a visa, which should be issued free of any costs, ASAP and with minimal hassle. One only needs to make evident that:

- There is a genuine, legit, legal family relation (in case of spouse: provide marital papers, which may need to be legalized and translated so the authorities can verify that the documents are genuine).

- ID both the EU national and non-EU national (passports)

- That the non-EU family member will travel together to the country (which cannot be the nation which the EU national is a citizen of), this could be something as simple as a written and signed statement by the EU spouse. If you happen to have transport reservations or such already one could include those aswell but it should not be a requirement.

Other details such as income, funds for the trip, ties to the home country (reasons for return) etc. etc. cannot be asked.

For the UK you'd need to either get the free EU/EEA permit in advance (which conviently is not something the "Do I need a visa?" tool on the UKVI webpage will tell you, you'd need to figur out that the UK has no EU/EEA family visa but only an EU/EEA-family permit) or obtain entry at the border (Dover-Calais, getting to the UK by plane would almost certainly be impossible as an airliner wouldn't let you board the plane).

So indeed you'd need to get visa4uk webpage, apply for the free EU/EEA gamily (spouse) permit and you can skip all the silly questions regarding income etc. The form is much too long for this type of application. Why they don't provide a much more basic form is beyond me. I'd call it a violation of the Directive 2004/38 to even supply these type of applicants which such a silly form with too too many irrelevant questions.

I myself (Dutchman) for this reason have not went to the UK yet with my spouse: the application via the visa4uk webpage, having to go to a service center (?) and them forwarding it to the UK for processing is far from fast and easy. I'd rather go to Calais and enter via Dover to obtain entry at the border by providing the marital papers on the spot. The borderguard will tell me that " it would be easier to apply for the free visa in advance" ... Yes, it would be easier for them, not us! Or we will just postpone our UK holiday untill my wife has been naturalized.

It would be much easier if non-EU spouses residing in either the UK or Schengen area on a residence permit would be able to access the other side of the channel without all this silly paperwork by simply accepting an EU residence card as sufficient prove. Ofcourse keeping the option to deny people at the border incase the borderguard suspects fraud (no actual family relation, false residence cards etc.) or threats to national security.

-

[bobrussell]

I considered myself moderately well versed in the visa world but the visa4uk is hopeless at giving guidance. The form I have been working through on their behalf is dreadful and many of the questions inappropriate to say the least.

The more research I do, the more muddy the water! The family will be flying from Basle so it is out of the question just to turn up and claim rights as I cannot believe for a second that the airline will take any risks.

I will finish the form without the details of income etc. They are all in Las Vegas at the moment and the US authorities (not known for their ease of access) were much more straight forward than UKVI.

I expect the visa to be dealt with by the closest consulate (Zurich) but even this is totally unclear.

[bobrussell]

The application has been completed but they are attempting to charge €123.00!

Still struggling to get my head round this one. I cannot see anywhere on the .gov site where there is any explanation.

The money is more a point of principle than a problem.

Why should the spouse of a Swiss national be able to move to live in the UK free of charge but be expected to pay for a three week visit? Makes no sense to me!

[Donutz]

Err? Are you sure that it's the EU/EEA family permit? It is (should be) free, for a visit of 1 day, 100, a thousand or indefinately. Or are those service/handling fees of some sort (which cannot be charger either unless you are voluntairily using entirely optional services).

Never got that far in the application proceds myself I must admit, the UK website reaaly turns one (me) off from proceeding as explained in my previous posts. Hope you figure it out how to get it all sorted out smoothly and for free.

Edited June 16, 2015 by Donutz

[bobrussell]

On the .gov site it states the visa fee is €121.

I suspect they will just pay up as money is no object and anything for a quiet life. I will follow it up as a matter of principle if they are charged anything other than an administrative charge. Another letter to my MP, I think!

I made it very clear at the end of the application form that this was an application for a Family Visit Visa, with the holder travelling with an EEA citizen and as such should be FOC and processed without delay. The fact that he is Swiss might muddy the water but it has to be unacceptable for the spouse of a Swiss citizen to be charged for a visit to the UK but the spouse of a British citizen to get a free Schengen visa to visit Switzerland. Add to this the fact that a Swiss family moving to the UK or even turning up at a border would expect to be issued with a suitable visa FOC!

Yet again the .gov website fails to provide adequate guidance!

[Donutz]

On the .gov site it states the visa fee is €121. (..)

I made it very clear at the end of the application form that this was an application for a Family Visit Visa, with the holder travelling with an EEA citizen and as such should be FOC and processed without delay. The fact that he is Swiss might muddy the water but it has to be unacceptable for the spouse of a Swiss citizen to be charged for a visit to the UK but the spouse of a British citizen to get a free Schengen visa to visit Switzerland.

Family visit visa? We are talking about a Swiss national and Thai family members visiting the UK not? In which case you must not apply for a UK visa (family visit) but for a UK permit (EU/EEA). The UK visa page with the not-so-handy " do I need a visa?" tool does not allow for EU/EEA national input or even hint at the existence of the EU/EEA permit so it's no surprise people may wrongly apply for a visa instead as it would be very logical to request a visa for a short holiday, not a permit..

This to start from:

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-visas-and-immigration

But rather then clicking "visa" , " do I need a visa?" or " general visitor visa" (all three would be a logical chose if one is looking into visa to the UK information for the very first time!) you need to look elsewhere and chose "Settle in the UK" (!! errrr ??!!). I mailed the webmaster (they tell you to go bother UKVI) and UKVI -twice- (which will get you a useless reply from an outsourced company).

Which takes you here (EEA family permit):

https://www.gov.uk/browse/visas-immigration/eu-eea-commonwealth

Edited June 17, 2015 by Donutz

[bobrussell]

But that leads you back to the very same Welcome to Visa4UK page and off you go down the same application route. The only way would be to answer the questions incorrectly and state that you are moving to the UK which they are not!

Absolute nonsense!

I have brought this to the attention of SOLVIT but even they may not get involved as Switzerland is not in the drop down box as they are not EU!

[bobrussell]

Right! Got the answer!!

Go to the Visa4UK, start the application with details.

Enter the location of residence and country of nationality. Reason for Visa OTHER!

Then EEA /Swiss Family Member, then Visa subtype 'Family member of a Swiss National'

BUT - it then takes you to the same application form, asks the same questions as the visit visa!

The visa has been paid for but I have suggested they ask for a refund and only pay for any admin charge! They could not have hidden this better if they tried, nor should they be asking employment and income details or travel details!

Thanks DONUTZ, I did not take your route directly but it made me think out of the box (apologies for the awful expression).

Edited June 17, 2015 by bobrussell

[Donutz]

Right! Got the answer!!

Go to the Visa4UK, start the application with details.

Enter the location of residence and country of nationality. Reason for Visa OTHER!

Then EEA /Swiss Family Member, then Visa subtype 'Family member of a Swiss National'

BUT - it then takes you to the same application form, asks the same questions as the visit visa!

Bad website design (welcome page which I linked to in my previous post), bad "Do I need a visa ?" tool, very poor visa4UK application webform. They should be ashamed but there seems no way to actual contact UKVI regarding this. And I guess they won't feel any worse if people accidently apply for a regular/paid visa type...

[bobrussell]

There is no drop down box for non-EU spouse travelling with EEA spouse!

You can contact UKVi (I just have!) on 0300 123 2241 for EU/EEA issues. Answered promptly and helpfully. Admitted the .gov site gives them no end of problems!! Advised to request refund when they go for the appointment at Teleperformance Zurich Visa or phone 0300 123 2241 (International UKVI enquiries). Tried that and they offer a phone back within 48 hours!

Clearly the government have got the message that EU/EEA citizens have a right to a prompt response. Non EU citizens get the same old runaround that the UKBA offered!

About time they improved the online applications. It might allow them to employ fewer staff sorting out the mess!

Thanks again!

[bobrussell]

Visit visa refused! Fee has been returned but visit visa refused on the grounds that income was not proved. This is a question that does not have to be answered.

Residence permit was not provided - it is in the passport! No evidence of available funds for the holiday given! No evidence of the relationship to an EEA National!

Completely dumbfounded as passport and marriage certificate should be enough!

I am trying the EEA Family Permit application but it is nonsensical and goes round in circles. The UKVI helpline is constantly engaged! The application requires employment information, when they met, when the relationship started, how often do they meet, when did they last see each other and how do they communicate. At the moment there is a lot of shouting and gnashing of teeth. They live together for crying out loud!

The holiday has been cancelled! I cannot make sense of the form and have been filling them in for years!

[Donutz]

Bugger, the ECO mhas done a pretty poor job and the usual UKVI contact adresses are quite useless aswell, are they not?

Only alternative (besides a complaint to make them properly apply Directive 2004/38 which means issueing a visa free of charge, with minumum hassle (!!) and ASAP provided that one shows proof of falling under the directive (ID's, marriage certificate, that the EU national and non-EU national travel to the UK) is to show up at the border. That is only realistic if they could make it to Calais-Dover and show the borderguard this evidence. Satisfying the borderguard (who usually tell you to get the visa in advance via the not so smooth UKVI services...) they get an A1 admission stamp.

Complaints can also be sent to the EU Commission:

http://ec.europa.eu/atwork/applying-eu-law/complaints_en.htm ( just-citizenship AT ec.europa DOT eu ).

Edited July 14, 2015 by Donutz

[bobrussell]

Not a good result when the wife of a Swiss millionaire is accused of lying on an application. The husband has made it perfectly clear he is never coming back to that ******* country!

The ECO was not satisfied that the applicant has sufficient funds to cover all reasonable costs without her working or accessing public funds! I suspect their daily income is similar to my monthly one!

The UKVI system is so flawed it defies belief! There is nobody accessible to discuss any difficulties. The chargeable phone line is constantly engaged and the Embassy direct you to a voicemail giving the website details then ends the call!! What a disgrace. Now there is a visa refusal I suspect trying to cross by ferry is going to be fraught with problems. Having their two children travelling with them means they will not bother.

My advice to others in a similar position is don't bother coming to the UK. spend your money somewhere else! The last time I will offer to assist someone with this sort of 'help'!

On the bright side, we have a standing invitation to their multimillion pound villa in Lugano!

Edited July 15, 2015 by bobrussell

[theoldgit]

An embarrassing but all too common tale I'm afraid Bob.

I suspect this isn't the intention of Ministers, or even the senior managers within the various Home Office agencies.

I suspect the weak link in this case is the ECO who has seemingly made a complete hash of the application.

As you imply there is little incentive for them to do any better, the UKVI make realistic and meaningful communication all but impossible and the ECO's know that.

I would suggest writing to the Minister outlining the poor handling of the application, [email protected], but you and I both know it's unlikely that it would get passed a junior Civil Servant in the relevant Correspondence Unit, certainly the Minister wouldn't get sight of it, and any reply would be a straight lift from a generic template, and certainly wouldn't address the issue.

Enjoy Lugano

[bobrussell]

Work pressures make Lugano little more than a dream this year. I will await a reply to my emailed complaint then talk to my MP.

My wife has used up all her holiday entitlement for her newish job, waiting for her friends to visit so none of us are going anywhere!

Emailed a complaint to the address in theoldgit's post!

[Donutz]

I agree Bob and TOG. The UK is missing the oppertunity to welcome 2 bonafide tourist. Even if they would change their minds due to the complaints and issue the visa, they still buggered up by not giving clear instructions and a smooth processing from the very start. These sort of applications should really be easy to handle even by this lady and her husband themselves. Writing to UKVI (ministry) and your MP might not change a thing but atleast it's worth a shot. As Always, if nobody complaints nothing will change and if sufficient complaints are made somebody will have to wake up eventually...

The only fast track would possibly be if the media picked this up and screamed bloody murder and waste of possible income from (wealthy) tourists, but I guess writing a letter to some media (for the opinion page?) won't get published either.

[bobrussell]

Paperwork will be dropped in to the MP on the way home! The constituency secretary told me this was the third complaint requiring an explanation from UKVI in the last 48 hours!

He was enthusiastic as can be at the idea of a millionaire coming to the UK on holiday especially as this is the New Forest! I don't expect any improvements to the service but live in hope! Knowing their spending habits quite a few department stores will lose out. Louis Vuitton in London will cop it as well.

Another good side - my wife will not be encouraged to spend more than is good for her to compete!

Edited July 15, 2015 by bobrussell

[bobrussell]

Reapplied for EEA/Swiss Family member permit. Went to hand in the application -rejected!

Not sure what UKVI in Switzerland are on but sadly their kids will be back at school soon so that's that!

Will need to find out exactly what has happened but as it is impossible to discuss the rejections with anyone at UKVI, it looks as if we will have to see what the Minister for Immigration has to say to our MP. All appears to be riding a horse and cart through the rights of a Swiss national and family.

[Maestro]

Reapplied for EEA/Swiss Family member permit. Went to hand in the application -rejected!

Not sure what UKVI in Switzerland are on but sadly their kids will be back at school soon so that's that!

Will need to find out exactly what has happened but as it is impossible to discuss the rejections with anyone at UKVI, it looks as if we will have to see what the Minister for Immigration has to say to our MP. All appears to be riding a horse and cart through the rights of a Swiss national and family.

"Reapplied for EEA/Swiss Family member permit. Went to hand in the application -rejected! "

I assume that under "Select Visa Type", your wife correctly selected the following:

"Not sure what UKVI in Switzerland are on..."

Does this mean your wife applied in Switzerland?

"...we will have to see what the Minister for Immigration has to say to our MP..."

As you are a Swiss national, does "our MP" mean your member of the Switzerland's National Council (Conseil féderal) ?

[bobrussell]

Not my wife! My wife's best friend. Married to a Swiss national.

It turns out that the new application (for an EEA Permit was not processed at all. After a 4 hour drive each way, they were told to go back and restart the visit visa again!

MP is involved, so far all complaint emails have failed to elicit any response from UKVI or the Minister for Immigration's office!

SOLVIT has confirmed that UKVI are breaking the law but apparently there is little we are likely to be able to do about it!!

I will be copying the Swiss embassy in London in to any correspondence! UKVI seem to think they are untouchable and to be quite honest, I think they pretty much are! I suspect they would not process the EEA Permit as it does attract a right of appeal!

The original application was as a visit visa but it was clearly stated on the form that this was an EEA Permit application.

Sadly their children are back at school soon so no point in applying again!

How many genuine tourists (and their spending money) are being refused what is a legal right?

[theoldgit]

SOLVIT has confirmed that UKVI are breaking the law but apparently there is little we are likely to be able to do about it!!

I'd be inclined to bounce that off the Minister as a secondary complaint, maybe also involving No 10 and even the Foreign Secretary, asking for an explanation as to why they see fit to flout European Law, whilst we're still in the EU.

Easy for me to suggest that you should do this and do that, but I do know that Senior Civil Servants do get grief when they receive Ministerial Questions from Senior Ministers and No 10.

[bobrussell]

Dear Citizen,
Thank you for your enquiry to the Your Europe Advice service.
You are correct that the EEA Family Permit for the Thai spouse in this instance should be granted without delay and the UK authorities should granted every facility to obtain the visa. This is clearly stated in Article 1, Annex I, 1999 EU-Swiss Agreement on Free Movement of Persons. In this regard, it is reasonable to expect that the visa would have issued within a maximum period of four weeks.
In relation to the use of the premium call service, the Commission has confirmed that Member States may use premium call lines or services of an external company but must offer the possibility of direct access to their Embassy or Consulate to third country family members.
Unfortunately, notwithstanding the apparent breach of law in this instance, your enforcement rights are limited. I can only recommend that you continue to email and telephone the British Embassy in Switzerland. You should also submit a formal complaint to the Home Office about this matter. You can obtain information about the complaint procedure on the following website: https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/uk-visas-and-immigration/about/complaints-procedure.
You may also wish to use the webchat facility outlined on the following website: https://www.gov.uk/contact-ukvi-outside-uk
I am sorry that I cannot be of greater assistance in this matter but trust that the above information is of some benefit to you and that the visa issues imminently. Should you have any further queries in relation to your rights in the EU, please do not hesitate to revert to the Your Europe Advice service.
Yours sincerely,

I will probably continue to bore people to death here about this because I am about as mad as can be. ECO's are untouchable if you cannot contact them or point blank refuse to reply. I have sent further stuff to the MP because I know what the reply to him will be - incorrect application and missing paperwork despite the fact that the application stated the type and the required paperwork was provided.

Seems the ECO's in Bangkok seem to know their job better than Switzerland.

[Donutz]

Keep up the good work Bob! Try to walk various paths, not every path may open doors and nothing ventures nothing gained. As said often, 1 complaint by go by unnoticed or ignored but the more just complaints on the more desks, the greater the chanche that somebody with the right powers will look into this and set things straight. Even if only for future trips and applicants. So your efforts are most certainly not a waste of time and thanks for the updates!

[bobrussell]

Emailed the office of the Prime Minister, No 10 Downing St!!!! Swiss Embassy next step! My wife thinks I am obsessed, I am just bl**dy furious at being ignored!

Someone at some stage has to respond to something???

Edited July 21, 2015 by bobrussell

[bobrussell]

Waiting for a response from somebody! Anybody at home at the UKVI?

I am sure a one to one telephone call would clear this issue up in a few minutes!!!

Edited July 23, 2015 by bobrussell

[bobrussell]

Nothing to report other than random emails requesting the same information over and over again from [email protected].

Unlike the UK authorities the Swiss embassy has sent a read receipt within five minutes of me contacting them!!

[bobrussell]

If people get fed up with the updates, just let me know!

Running out of options but eventually perhaps the government ombudsman might be the route if nothing happens in the next few weeks!

Swiss Embassy provided a read receipt in minutes and a reply, next working day! Unfortunately cannot help but confirmed the EEA rights and suggested contacting the British Embassy in Switzerland with the complaint.

Got an automated response from the British Embassy making it clear that visa related issues are not dealt with by them and that "If your email is outside the scope of these services you will not receive a reply."

[Digitalnomade]

why not to apply in Switzerland for a Shengen tourist visa, fly to Zurich or Geneva then fly to UK?

[bobrussell]

She does not require a Schengen visa as she is a Swiss resident. It is the British Embassy via their visa application centres that have seen fit to ignore the rights of an EEA/Swiss citizen to have free movement within the area that includes to right to be accompanied by their spouse.

The permit allows entry to the UK. It is not a requirement that the intention is to become resident. Even if the family decided to become resident, the authorities cannot prevent it except by breaking the rules that the UK signed up to.

I have to feel a degree of temptation to fly across to accompany them to the application centre if there is a next time. It has been suggested they come to the UK for Christmas instead!

Edited July 27, 2015 by bobrussell