Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy'

[lostoday]

There are no US reservations on Thailan. The US is firmly committed to not restoring US/Thai relations until they have an elected government by the people for the people. That does not mean some appointed crony pm constitutes a freely elected democracy.

An government by the people for the people: US doesn't really have experience on that, themself.

Yes they do. That is one of the negative things about a democratic voting system. The voters get what they deserve. They elected Obama twice. If you notice the Obama supporters here on Thai Visa it is easy to see why. You get what you deserve that is one of the problems of democratic elections. Dumb voters get dumb governments.

[quandow]

There are no US reservations on Thailand.

At least none that the U.S. will publicly acknowledge.

[Sydebolle]

When will those big mouthed aggressors shut their huge snout for once, look at their own country which is a total mess (1 in 7 on food stamps; one in eleven cannot find the US on a world map etc.) and get their own house in order.
Being 239 years old (of which 223 years at war somewhere NOT bordering the US) does not really qualify and is really democratic .

What to expect from a country choosing its head of state among two candidates whereas the Miss America competition features 25 times the number of candidates.

Thailand will have to find her own way into the 21st century and does not need any smart a...e advice from its ill mentor. Hence tell this Charge d'Affaires of theirs to look after his country's own domestic affairs first . And "Charge d'Affaires" stands for being in charge of matters. Unlike ALL other diplomats Murphy has to learn not to meddle into domestic affairs of another country. Pathetic clowns - how sad!

[tbthailand]

ah, the American bashers are out in force...

[djjamie]

"Return to democracy" implies democracy was in Thailand previously.

They should say they want a "return to one principle of democracy". That would be more on the mark. and is the reason Thailand is reforming so more than one principle is adhered to.

Edited June 14, 2015 by djjamie

[lostoday]

Agree all comments, that US meddles in every other country affairs; hasn't matured past it's Western hero style of riding "rough-shod" over countries it has dangled carrots to in past.

Yet, has many of it's own problems, i.e. racial issues, illegal immigrants, sluggish economy, etc, that it fails to remedy, perhaps other countries should be more critical of US!!

I believe in this case the USA is not meddling in Thai affairs but it is Thailand wanting USA money.

If the currency represents a strong economy vs weak economies I think it is hard to classify the US economy as sluggish - they don't have Greece to worry about do they?

I don't know of any country that has mixed races that does not have racial issues and the USA's illegal immigrant issues are looking small now compared to other parts of the world.

I think really the only reason the USA meddles in other peoples affairs is because they are asked to. WWII ask. Vietnam ask. Korea ask. Kuwait (Iraq invasion) ask. Syria ask.

I think you should realize that the USA has allies that can't really do much themselves. They don't have carriers and troops and the will to defend themselves but they ask a lot.

If the USA is Americans, and I think it is, rarely do they want to attack anyone. Most Americans even in WWI and WWII were very isolationist and didn't want to interfere.

[lildragon]

While I wholly dislike the junta I find it rich of the American government to be so judgmental. Their two next potential presidential candidates will be from families that haven already been in power for the last 25 years

[razer]

Why do the USA, UK and EU love corrupt governments?

Because it is easy to get anything they want without politics, diplomacy or accountability. And it's cheap.

Need a Black Site Prison? No problem. We pay-up You shut-up.

Need a dumping ground for toxic waste? No problem. We pay-up You shut-up.

Corrupt countries offer opportunities for Western governments and corporate interests to do things which would not be legal at home.

VIVA Corrupt "Democracies"

[h90]

There are no US reservations on Thailan. The US is firmly committed to not restoring US/Thai relations until they have an elected government by the people for the people. That does not mean some appointed crony pm constitutes a freely elected democracy.

An government by the people for the people: US doesn't really have experience on that, themself.

Yes they do. That is one of the negative things about a democratic voting system. The voters get what they deserve. They elected Obama twice. If you notice the Obama supporters here on Thai Visa it is easy to see why. You get what you deserve that is one of the problems of democratic elections. Dumb voters get dumb governments.

You are right at that, and it is bad, but not what I mean.

The last 150 years the president was either from the Democrats or the Republicans. Not one single independent one. That shows clearly that independent one have no chance, no matter how good they are.

You can only get president if you can get enormous amounts of money for the campaign: That is not democratic.

All the major media are one or the other side and independent candidate would be just ignored.

And all these presidents acted as Democratic or Republican president, non acted as he should, as peoples president who stays above it all.

That majority based system doesn't allow small parties to grow. If you vote for a small party your vote is lost.

While nothing of it is really undemocratic in total the system makes it impossible to have some real democratic elections.

[eggers]

Agree all comments, that US meddles in every other country affairs; hasn't matured past it's Western hero style of riding "rough-shod" over countries it has dangled carrots to in past.

Yet, has many of it's own problems, i.e. racial issues, illegal immigrants, sluggish economy, etc, that it fails to remedy, perhaps other countries should be more critical of US!!

I believe in this case the USA is not meddling in Thai affairs but it is Thailand wanting USA money.

If the currency represents a strong economy vs weak economies I think it is hard to classify the US economy as sluggish - they don't have Greece to worry about do they?

I don't know of any country that has mixed races that does not have racial issues and the USA's illegal immigrant issues are looking small now compared to other parts of the world.

I think really the only reason the USA meddles in other peoples affairs is because they are asked to. WWII ask. Vietnam ask. Korea ask. Kuwait (Iraq invasion) ask. Syria ask.

I think you should realize that the USA has allies that can't really do much themselves. They don't have carriers and troops and the will to defend themselves but they ask a lot.

If the USA is Americans, and I think it is, rarely do they want to attack anyone. Most Americans even in WWI and WWII were very isolationist and didn't want to interfere.

Not meddling...come, come, it has used "carrot & stick" approach, to say, relations will not return to normal till Thailand returns to democracy & elected Gov't.

Sure, some countries have sought US assistance, but many others where, US sees opportunity & offers "assistance" for it's own ends.

Your comments seem to focus on military aid, which is not always the case, certainly not Thailand or the other ASEAN countries.

US entered WWII after attack on PH & declared war on Japan.

Iraq invasion was "folly" of then President supposedly to shore up political support.

The US is today far from isolationist, rather gone too far other way, wants to be in everybody's backyard, mind you, so do other major players, Russia & China!!

[lostoday]

I believe in this case the USA is not meddling in Thai affairs but it is Thailand wanting USA money.

If the currency represents a strong economy vs weak economies I think it is hard to classify the US economy as sluggish - they don't have Greece to worry about do they?

I don't know of any country that has mixed races that does not have racial issues and the USA's illegal immigrant issues are looking small now compared to other parts of the world.

I think really the only reason the USA meddles in other peoples affairs is because they are asked to. WWII ask. Vietnam ask. Korea ask. Kuwait (Iraq invasion) ask. Syria ask.

I think you should realize that the USA has allies that can't really do much themselves. They don't have carriers and troops and the will to defend themselves but they ask a lot.

If the USA is Americans, and I think it is, rarely do they want to attack anyone. Most Americans even in WWI and WWII were very isolationist and didn't want to interfere.

Not meddling...come, come, it has used "carrot & stick" approach, to say, relations will not return to normal till Thailand returns to democracy & elected Gov't.

Sure, some countries have sought US assistance, but many others where, US sees opportunity & offers "assistance" for it's own ends.

Your comments seem to focus on military aid, which is not always the case, certainly not Thailand or the other ASEAN countries.

US entered WWII after attack on PH & declared war on Japan.

Iraq invasion was "folly" of then President supposedly to shore up political support.

The US is today far from isolationist, rather gone too far other way, wants to be in everybody's backyard, mind you, so do other major players, Russia & China!!

You missed my post I guess. I said it was a matter of Thailand wanting money. The Allies were asking the US to enter WWII long before they did and were in it defacto anyway by supplying the Allies. The invasion of Iraq I mentioned Kuwait which you missed. The USA entered the war to counter the Iraq invasion of Kuwait and were asked to do it.

The other thing you missed about my post is that I was writing about the American people not the government. The American people have always been very isolationist. Presidents are commonly elected on the basis of getting America out of this war or that one.

Did you think the Revolutionary or Civil wars were popular? Far from it. Americans don't like war. They have everything they need.

America has the same problem as many countries. The people they elect are not the same people after they are elected. Americans have gotten one long list of broken promises from elected officials.

I wish they had the brains to reform the system to forbid any corporate political donations and the electoral college and the primary system. Many feel the same way I do. But I gave up and came to Thailand.

[Robby nz]

What seems strange is the US supporting the 2013 military coup against the government of President Mosi of Egypt which was accused of almost the same things a the PT Govt, yet condemning Thailand.

Mosi:

Opponents had been accusing him of trying to monopolize political power by proposing an openly Islamist constitution, stuffing the bureaucracy with his associates and banning the courts from overruling his decisions.

And PT:

Attempting to change the constitution to benefit themselves : Yes

Stuffing bureaucracy with associates : Yes

Threatening and intimidating courts that may bring down judgments against them : Yes

With the addition of attempting to absolve themselves from crime and corruption : Yes

What was that "H" word again ?

Edited June 14, 2015 by Robby nz

[Jim walker]

They can have as much democracy as they want in Thailand as long as the military and Bangkok elite run the country along with the Privy Council and that will be the peoples lot take it or leave it, and the Junta wont step down until the main job in Thailand is completed stopping the boy racers on their nifty fifties racing on a Saturday night.

[lostoday]

What seems strange is the US supporting the 2013 military coup against the government of President Mosi of Egypt which was accused of almost the same things a the PT Govt, yet condemning Thailand.

Mosi:

Opponents had been accusing him of trying to monopolize political power by proposing an openly Islamist constitution, stuffing the bureaucracy with his associates and banning the courts from overruling his decisions.

And PT:

Attempting to change the constitution to benefit themselves : Yes

Stuffing bureaucracy with associates : Yes

Threatening and intimidating courts that may bring down judgments against them : Yes

With the addition of attempting to absolve themselves from crime and corruption : Yes

What was that "H" word again ?

Under US law, the government must suspend foreign aid to any nation whose elected leader is ousted in a coup d'etat. The US provides $1.5bn a year to Egypt in military and economic assistance.

Following a phone call between John Kerry and the Egyptian foreign minister, the State Department was adamant it had backed neither the protesters nor theMuslim Brotherhood.

How can the USA back the Muslim Brotherhood (Morsi)?

Edited June 14, 2015 by lostoday

[halloween]

Well if they called it an elected criminal conspiracy, people might start to look harder at their own government.

No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand.

What does that mean?

You wrote, "Well if they called it an elected criminal conspiracy, people might start to look harder at their own government." I wrote, "No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand."

Get it. No one has been elected in a while here so why would they call it an elected criminal conspiracy?

If you want your sentence to make sense, try putting all the words in it.

The LAST elected government here was a criminal conspiracy. They were elected to supply responsible government for the people of Thailand. Instead they accepted payment to pander to the wants of a fugitive criminal, more concerned with enriching themselves and him than the needs of those they were elected to represent, and desperately trying to absolve themselves of their crimes.

[lostoday]

No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand.

What does that mean?

You wrote, "Well if they called it an elected criminal conspiracy, people might start to look harder at their own government." I wrote, "No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand."

Get it. No one has been elected in a while here so why would they call it an elected criminal conspiracy?

If you want your sentence to make sense, try putting all the words in it.

The LAST elected government here was a criminal conspiracy. They were elected to supply responsible government for the people of Thailand. Instead they accepted payment to pander to the wants of a fugitive criminal, more concerned with enriching themselves and him than the needs of those they were elected to represent, and desperately trying to absolve themselves of their crimes.

Nonsense. If that was true all of the last government would be in prison and they aren't.

Why are you still on that same old issue which is off topic and antiquated history.

Try staying on topic or start your own thread if you want to slander a previous Thai administration.

The topic is Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy.

Not a debate about your opinion of the last administration.

[h90]

What seems strange is the US supporting the 2013 military coup against the government of President Mosi of Egypt which was accused of almost the same things a the PT Govt, yet condemning Thailand.

Mosi:

Opponents had been accusing him of trying to monopolize political power by proposing an openly Islamist constitution, stuffing the bureaucracy with his associates and banning the courts from overruling his decisions.

And PT:

Attempting to change the constitution to benefit themselves : Yes

Stuffing bureaucracy with associates : Yes

Threatening and intimidating courts that may bring down judgments against them : Yes

With the addition of attempting to absolve themselves from crime and corruption : Yes

What was that "H" word again ?

And the US avoids the D word, when they speak with Saudi Arabia......When will they put pressure to return to democracy?

[h90]

No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand.

What does that mean?

You wrote, "Well if they called it an elected criminal conspiracy, people might start to look harder at their own government." I wrote, "No has been elected for the past few years that I know of in Thailand."

Get it. No one has been elected in a while here so why would they call it an elected criminal conspiracy?

If you want your sentence to make sense, try putting all the words in it.

The LAST elected government here was a criminal conspiracy. They were elected to supply responsible government for the people of Thailand. Instead they accepted payment to pander to the wants of a fugitive criminal, more concerned with enriching themselves and him than the needs of those they were elected to represent, and desperately trying to absolve themselves of their crimes.

elected? With full scale vote buying. Make the cross here, get 500 Baht isn't the original way of democratic elections.

[lostoday]

What seems strange is the US supporting the 2013 military coup against the government of President Mosi of Egypt which was accused of almost the same things a the PT Govt, yet condemning Thailand.

Mosi:

Opponents had been accusing him of trying to monopolize political power by proposing an openly Islamist constitution, stuffing the bureaucracy with his associates and banning the courts from overruling his decisions.

And PT:

Attempting to change the constitution to benefit themselves : Yes

Stuffing bureaucracy with associates : Yes

Threatening and intimidating courts that may bring down judgments against them : Yes

With the addition of attempting to absolve themselves from crime and corruption : Yes

What was that "H" word again ?

And the US avoids the D word, when they speak with Saudi Arabia......When will they put pressure to return to democracy?

Is this a debate about US Saudi relations then? I have a lot of opinions on that but I fail to see how they would be relevant to this thread? Are you the kind of guy who asks the policeman why he didn't ticket all the other speeding motorists when he stops you? How does that work?

[halloween]

Nonsense. If that was true all of the last government would be in prison and they aren't.

Why are you still on that same old issue which is off topic and antiquated history.

Try staying on topic or start your own thread if you want to slander a previous Thai administration.

The topic is Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy.

Not a debate about your opinion of the last administration.

Quite a few members of the last government are heading for prison.

4 years ago is antiquated history. How old are you, 6?

The topic is "Return to democracy". How does that make the last "democratic" government off topic - what are we supposedly returning to?

My opinion of the last government goes a bit beyond "they were elected". It is their actions AFTER they were elected that determine whether or not they were "democratic" and they failed miserably.

[gandalf12]

It is all about what is best for the USA. Thailands interests are of no concern to the US

[lostoday]

It is all about what is best for the USA. Thailands interests are of no concern to the US

What would you have Thailand do if China damns the Mekong and stops flow of water and fish to Thailand? Who would you suggest Thailand ask for help?

[jesimps]

... once democracy is restored....

when will they stop using the word "democracy" for the political system that has been in place in Thailand in the past"

Especially pre Thaksin.

[Suradit69]

Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy'

Yes, in the US, for example. some billionaires like the Koch Brothers or Sheldon Adelson decide which millionaires they will finance to run for the office of president and the people are allowed to vote for one or the other of the two clowns chosen for them ... although in some cases 9 semi-senile judges sitting on the Supreme Court will make the decision for them.

This happens every four years so that people will think there's some connection between who is elected and whose interests are served.

That's how true democracy works.

[baboon]

Lostoday - I'm afraid you don't understand. To the fascist/crank element on here, there is literally nothing in all of existence that is not related to or concerning Thaksin and the red shirts. They have even infiltrated the thread about the new app available to contact the police...

[lostoday]

Nonsense. If that was true all of the last government would be in prison and they aren't.

Why are you still on that same old issue which is off topic and antiquated history.

Try staying on topic or start your own thread if you want to slander a previous Thai administration.

The topic is Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy.

Not a debate about your opinion of the last administration.

Quite a few members of the last government are heading for prison.

4 years ago is antiquated history. How old are you, 6?

The topic is "Return to democracy". How does that make the last "democratic" government off topic - what are we supposedly returning to?

My opinion of the last government goes a bit beyond "they were elected". It is their actions AFTER they were elected that determine whether or not they were "democratic" and they failed miserably.

Do you really think the name of the last government was democracy? You are out in the cold with no clue. The USA does not care who governs Thailand. The last government may have been good or bad it has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is return to democracy not return to the last government. Democracy is a method of choosing leaders. One person one vote.

Now do you get why you are off topic? It is not about Yingluck or Thaksin it is about democracy which is a system of electing leaders.

[fred Kubasa]

Thailand still doesn't understand that " The tail wagging the dog " strategy doesn't work !

[halloween]

Quite a few members of the last government are heading for prison.

4 years ago is antiquated history. How old are you, 6?

The topic is "Return to democracy". How does that make the last "democratic" government off topic - what are we supposedly returning to?

My opinion of the last government goes a bit beyond "they were elected". It is their actions AFTER they were elected that determine whether or not they were "democratic" and they failed miserably.

Do you really think the name of the last government was democracy? You are out in the cold with no clue. The USA does not care who governs Thailand. The last government may have been good or bad it has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is return to democracy not return to the last government. Democracy is a method of choosing leaders. One person one vote.

Now do you get why you are off topic? It is not about Yingluck or Thaksin it is about democracy which is a system of electing leaders.

My apologies if my broader concept of democracy conflicts you simplistic definition. Feel free to ignore.

[lostoday]

Thai-US ties hinge on 'return of democracy'

Yes, in the US, for example. some billionaires like the Koch Brothers or Sheldon Adelson decide which millionaires they will finance to run for the office of president and the people are allowed to vote for one or the other of the two clowns chosen for them ... although in some cases 9 semi-senile judges sitting on the Supreme Court will make the decision for them.

This happens every four years so that people will think there's some connection between who is elected and whose interests are served.

That's how true democracy works.

95% of the elected offices in the USA are small time community offices not financed by anyone outside of the electorate. That is how true democracy works. It is why a small town sheriff can take on the President or a state can take on the Federal laws about pot.

It is too bad in national elections the fix is in. Maybe the people will wake up or maybe the politicians will keep packing the country with immigrants who have no idea how the real system of democratic elections is supposed to work.

[lostoday]

Do you really think the name of the last government was democracy? You are out in the cold with no clue. The USA does not care who governs Thailand. The last government may have been good or bad it has nothing to do with the topic. The topic is return to democracy not return to the last government. Democracy is a method of choosing leaders. One person one vote.

Now do you get why you are off topic? It is not about Yingluck or Thaksin it is about democracy which is a system of electing leaders.

My apologies if my broader concept of democracy conflicts you simplistic definition. Feel free to ignore.

Broad is covering a large number and wide scope of subjects as in any democratic government not just the previous governments. Narrow would be one government as in Thaksin's government.

In this case democracy as meant by the USA is in the broad sense of any government that is democratically elected.

Feel free to read and absorb because it is the truth and I don't have an ax to grind. I have said many times before I did not like the previous administration but that is not the topic of this thread.

You and a small group of posters try and take over every thread to turn it into an anti Thaksin bash and that is unfair to those of us who want to discuss the topic.

Edited June 14, 2015 by lostoday