Mass shooting at Charleston church in South Carolina leaves 9 dead

[chuckd]

The shooter has been identified as Dylan Roof, 21 years old.

He has not been captured so there is no further information available at this time.

CNN has had it on continually since it happened.

I don't get Fox News but I do get BBC. It is a waste of time.

[JetsetBkk]

The shooter has been identified as Dylan Roof, 21 years old.

He has not been captured so there is no further information available at this time.

CNN has had it on continually since it happened.

I don't get Fox News but I do get BBC. It is a waste of time.

They just got him.

[jdinasia]

Only 9?

Black on black murders is probably much greater than this in the same state on the same day.

Heaven forbid a white man take part in the murder toll of blacks.

It was a mass shooting.

Like most mass shootings in the US, the killer was white.

He's in custody.

Now --- 84% of white people murdered in the US are murdered by.... Wait for it.... White people.

[Jingthing]

A survivor reports he spouted some racist crap at the church so assuming that is true, and looking at the obvious, this was definitely a racist hate crime. Was it terrorism? Well, that I don't know. It was violence for a political ideology, racism, and there is no doubt in my mind more blood will be spilled in reaction to his crime.

[Jingthing]

I think most people assumed he wouldn't be taken alive ... but there was something about the way he did this that made me think he would be. Well, so they have the death penalty in S.C., right?

[StevieH]

A survivor reports he spouted some racist crap at the church so assuming that is true, and looking at the obvious, this was definitely a racist hate crime. Was it terrorism? Well, that I don't know. It was violence for a political ideology, racism, and there is no doubt in my mind more blood will be spilled in reaction to his crime.

"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go."

Local NAACP official has now said "Gunman told survivor he'd let her live so she could tell everyone else what happened."

that's terrorism, plain and simple. needs calling what it is.

[Jingthing]

Maybe so.

Not sure.

The issue here is he representing an organized political movement/ideology (such as the KKK) or just an crazy racist individual movement of one. Not sure the latter is technically terrorism. Pretty sure the friends and relatives of his victims don't care so much right now whether it is terrorism or not.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[StevieH]

Maybe so.

Not sure.

The issue here is he representing an organized political movement/ideology (such as the KKK) or just an crazy racist individual movement of one. Not sure the latter is technically terrorism. Pretty sure the friends and relatives of his victims don't care so much right now whether it is terrorism or not.

well yeah, semantics i suppose debating the most accurate definition of terrorism. he's an evil mass murderer at best and if, like anders breivik in norway, the mass murder turns out to be politically and/or ideologically motivated then i guess that qualifies the killer as a terrorist. whether or not he's a card-carrying member of a group doesn't really seem relevant.

least they've got the b*stard. but then given that he's not blown his own head off it'd seem that's what he wanted.

[Jingthing]

It might be important.

It seems he probably acted alone without help and not part of a specific racist organization.

That would be good news because it would probably mean other black churches don't really have to worry so much.

But sorry to be pessimistic and I really hope that I'm wrong ... but I expect there will be some black people who are so enraged by this (understandably) that they act out retribution crimes against whites.

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[arjunadawn]

Maybe so.

Not sure.

The issue here is he representing an organized political movement/ideology (such as the KKK) or just an crazy racist individual movement of one. Not sure the latter is technically terrorism. Pretty sure the friends and relatives of his victims don't care so much right now whether it is terrorism or not.

While nothing is sure yet it is hardly likely he was associated with any political ideology- terrorism. (There would be an eager push to make this a terrorist incident yet it will likely never rise to this definition).

Other TV posters have noted some vague difference between hate and racism; I dont see one. Hate and racism seem pretty interchangeable to me. Behind all the noise of recent racial violence in America there is an overwhelming database that suggests a narrative quite different than what is crafted in response to individual acts recently. Individual acts nearly have the permissive endorsement of the media/society in response to black violence against cops in response to perceived and widespread violence against blacks by cops (I think its fair some really were horrific police brutality). But when the numbers are crunched no matter how one looks at it the data does not support the narrative that is being channeled to the population- that blacks are systematically under attack. Notwithstanding such horrible events as today (like another SSRI event), it is grossly apparent that black Americans disproportionately represent violent crime in America; far in excess of their population. The single horrific nature of this action in reference does nothing to approximate the sheer numbers of black on white and black on black violent crime in America. As a population percentage, the numbers are staggering.

This awareness ran through my head since noting this news release until I came across the video posting which quite ably sums up the cognitive dissonance between what is observed and what we are told by the media.

[Jingthing]

I found that infowars video inflammatory and offensive and not worthy of response.

Beyond that, it's interesting there is no legal way to charge extra for hate crimes in South Carolina.

It wouldn't matter anyway as far as sentencing ... he's going to be charged with multiple murders.

That's more than enough.

That said, it seems likely an insanity defense will be mounted.

The shooter is clearly a racist who hates black people in a very extreme way, insane or not.

To add, they could charge a hate crime at the federal level but I really don't understand why.

S.C. has the death penalty. Why not just do it all there?

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[Roadman]

The Insanity of America...

Watching our news here in Kiwiland this morning and showed a photo of a major American newspaper with whole front page taken up by this story. That is apart from a red label advert over part of the same front headline page with get 30% off all your gun needs...

[Wat dee]

One who gave him that .45 for birthday must be real proud.

[sdanielmcev]

I found that infowars video inflammatory and offensive and not worthy of response.

Beyond that, it's interesting there is no legal way to charge extra for hate crimes in South Carolina.

It wouldn't matter anyway as far as sentencing ... he's going to be charged with multiple murders.

That's more than enough.

That said, it seems likely an insanity defense will be mounted.

The shooter is clearly a racist who hates black people in a very extreme way, insane or not.

To add, they could charge a hate crime at the federal level but I really don't understand why.

S.C. has the death penalty. Why not just do it all there?

How can stating facts be inflammatory? Do you prefer to be spoon-fed your facts to corroborate a political agenda?

[sdanielmcev]

A survivor reports he spouted some racist crap at the church so assuming that is true, and looking at the obvious, this was definitely a racist hate crime. Was it terrorism? Well, that I don't know. It was violence for a political ideology, racism, and there is no doubt in my mind more blood will be spilled in reaction to his crime.

"You rape our women and you're taking over our country. And you have to go."

Local NAACP official has now said "Gunman told survivor he'd let her live so she could tell everyone else what happened."

that's terrorism, plain and simple. needs calling what it is.

It is not confirmed he said that. Try to wait until the facts are out, not rumor.

[MaxYakov]

I found that infowars video inflammatory and offensive and not worthy of response.

Beyond that, it's interesting there is no legal way to charge extra for hate crimes in South Carolina.

It wouldn't matter anyway as far as sentencing ... he's going to be charged with multiple murders.

That's more than enough.

That said, it seems likely an insanity defense will be mounted.

The shooter is clearly a racist who hates black people in a very extreme way, insane or not.

To add, they could charge a hate crime at the federal level but I really don't understand why.

S.C. has the death penalty. Why not just do it all there?

Why did you find that Infowars video "inflammatory and offensive"?

[simple1]

Appears the mass murderer is a white supremacist.

"He also displayed the flags of defeated white-ruled regimes: a Confederate flag was on his license plate, Konzny said, and a photo on his Facebook page shows him wearing a jacket with stitched-on flag patches from Rhodesia and apartheid-era South Africa"

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/833893-us-white-gunman-caught-in-killing-of-9-in-historic-black-church/

[Jingthing]

It's a racist video, filled with distorted inflammatory right wing lies, so stop with the baiting questions. If you want to waste your time entertaining garbage like that, be my guest, but I don't have to.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/wp/2015/06/18/5-charts-show-the-stubborn-persistence-of-american-hate-crime/

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[sirineou]

Ugly, revolting crime? - Yes!

Crime of Hate? - Yes!

Catch him. Hang, Gas or Electrocute him? - Yes!

But before this is done they will have to try this "white young man in his 20-s" to answer the question "Why".

Something tells me he is not going to be taken alive. Perhaps it will be better for him.

But I am sure it will be better for the Authorities. The reason "Why" may be embarrassing.

May be embarrassing? It certainly is, the question is to whom

Certainly embarrassing to the gun lobby, who fights for the right of every idiot and every psychopath, to purchase guns with the minimum, if any, background check.

Certainly to the "Gun enthusiasts" who in an other thread in this forum, argue vehemently, that current laws are adequate.

and finally embarrassing to all of as for failing to defeat the lunatic fringe to the right, who is driving and defining the debate, in such a way that these things occur on a daily bases and we are enable to stop them.

Yes as an American, I am embarrassed.

[simple1]

I found that infowars video inflammatory and offensive and not worthy of response.

Beyond that, it's interesting there is no legal way to charge extra for hate crimes in South Carolina.

It wouldn't matter anyway as far as sentencing ... he's going to be charged with multiple murders.

That's more than enough.

That said, it seems likely an insanity defense will be mounted.

The shooter is clearly a racist who hates black people in a very extreme way, insane or not.

To add, they could charge a hate crime at the federal level but I really don't understand why.

S.C. has the death penalty. Why not just do it all there?

Why did you find that Infowars video "inflammatory and offensive"?

If I can add my opinion...

Infowars is a known platform for right wing propaganda and conspiracy theories. To talk to the homicide rates by black Americans in the context of the mass murder is irrelevant & inappropriate. The presenters content amounts to, using a word commonly used by right wing commentators, a 'deflection'.

Edited June 18, 2015 by simple1

[MaxYakov]

I don't know what the motivation is yet but there is a historical precedence of racist white Americans violently attacking black churches in the South. So odds are that it's that kind of thing. But we don't know yet, do we?

Also, it's not really logical for an "atheist" terrorist (pretty rare thing) to attack a black church being that it would be mistaken to be a race thing, why not attack a white church?

Similarly it's not really logical for an Islamic Jihadist to go after black people even Christians as the truth is there are plenty of African American Muslims. It would be more logical for them to go after either Jews or a white church.

But again, we'll see.

So you believe the shooter to be a logical psychopath?

Not intending to offer any opinion, but it was reported that he may have sat in the congregation for an hour before launching his attack. Strange behaviour to say the least.

"Strange behaviour to say the least."

As if killing nine people is not "strange behavior" in itself. Not to mention taking minimal effort to avoid his being identified.

I think I'm on safe ground by diagnosing or classifying him as a psychopath:

"Psychopathy, also known as—though sometimes distinguished from—sociopathy, is traditionally defined as a personality disorder characterized by enduring antisocial behavior, diminished empathy and remorse, and disinhibited or bold behavior." (Ref: Wiki)

The closest parallel (there are many others) I see with this mass killing is the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting (Ref: Wiki) by then 20-year-old Adam Lanza. The Wiki entry says:

"A November 2013 report issued by the Connecticut State Attorney's office concluded that Lanza acted alone and planned his actions, but no evidence collected provided any indication as to why he did so, or why he targeted the school."

A statement that mystifies me. It's as though they were looking for a "normal" motive with Lanza. But I digress ... or maybe not.

Can we expect to find normalcy with the motive or actions of anyone who commits mass murder in this way?

In the case of this shooting, IMHO, early indications are that the shooting had a personal/political agenda - possibly the delusion that his actions would initiate a "race war". At least Mr. Roof is still alive so maybe he can assist us with his version of the motive. I expect an insanity defense.

R.I.P the victims of this tragedy and my condolences to the victims' families and friends

Edited June 18, 2015 by MaxYakov

[Publicus]

Maybe so.

Not sure.

The issue here is he representing an organized political movement/ideology (such as the KKK) or just an crazy racist individual movement of one. Not sure the latter is technically terrorism. Pretty sure the friends and relatives of his victims don't care so much right now whether it is terrorism or not.

While nothing is sure yet it is hardly likely he was associated with any political ideology- terrorism. (There would be an eager push to make this a terrorist incident yet it will likely never rise to this definition).

Other TV posters have noted some vague difference between hate and racism; I dont see one. Hate and racism seem pretty interchangeable to me. Behind all the noise of recent racial violence in America there is an overwhelming database that suggests a narrative quite different than what is crafted in response to individual acts recently. Individual acts nearly have the permissive endorsement of the media/society in response to black violence against cops in response to perceived and widespread violence against blacks by cops (I think its fair some really were horrific police brutality). But when the numbers are crunched no matter how one looks at it the data does not support the narrative that is being channeled to the population- that blacks are systematically under attack. Notwithstanding such horrible events as today (like another SSRI event), it is grossly apparent that black Americans disproportionately represent violent crime in America; far in excess of their population. The single horrific nature of this action in reference does nothing to approximate the sheer numbers of black on white and black on black violent crime in America. As a population percentage, the numbers are staggering.

This awareness ran through my head since noting this news release until I came across the video posting which quite ably sums up the cognitive dissonance between what is observed and what we are told by the media.

The right wing hates despises and disrespects the Southern Poverty Law Center which was incorporated in 1971. Here's an SPLC report on the immediate aftermath of Dylann Roof's hate crime.....

Racist Right-Wing Erupts Online In Reaction To #CharlestonShooting

According an eyewitness report, the shooter stated, “You rape our women and you’re taking over our country. And you have to go,” as he was reloading his weapon. Lamenting so called “black on white crime” is a favorite talking point for white nationalists and the shooter’s statements are virtually indistinguishable from a headline from the Council of Conservative Citizens’s news engine, Top Conservative News.

A photo found on Roof’s Facebook shows him wearing a jacket adorned with an apartheid-era South African flag patch, as well as another patch that appears to be a flag from Rhodesia – a whites-only state that is now part of Zimbabwe.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2015/06/18/racist-right-wing-erupts-online-in-reaction-to-charlestonshooting/

Dylann Storm Roof: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know

Here’s what we know about Roof, his alleged crime, and his capture:

http://heavy.com/news/2015/06/dylann-storm-roof-charleston-church-shooter-gunman-caught-dead/

[Jingthing]

I also think his motive was to spark a race war. The choice of that specific church was obviously not random. It has significant symbolic political meaning in the history of U.S. race relations. It will increase tensions for awhile, that's for sure. The more I think about this, I wonder, why not just call this TERRORISM?

Edited June 18, 2015 by Jingthing

[JDGRUEN]

I do not know of any gun lobby trying to dismiss the vile actions of nutcases like this Roof guy. Conservatives in America want this young man prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This young man should never have been given a Popsicle stick - not to mention a gun. Again - the system failed to take action to put this young man in confinement base on what I predict will be revealed about his mental health status -- just watch an see over the coming days and weeks. He will prove to be another prime example of the other young imbalanced men known by others to be on the edge - over the edge in actions and statements - yet little to no intervention is done out of the fear of a legal backlash to teachers - family - and friends.

As with the others who even look similar - odd to the extreme, often wild-eyed, espousing extreme ideologies, with records of not fitting in and worse, this young man will be shown to have all the same manifestations of poorly managed mental health issues as the others did. If I am proven wrong in the coming days and weeks I will gladly stand corrected.

And the same as the Connecticut school shooting the parent allow access to a gun - in this case the father foolishly gave his odd ball son a .45 pistol. Head shaking and hair pulling that the actions of a parent / father could be so dumb.

Has the insanity in the youth of America gotten so prevalent that a parent cannot recognize that their child is off his rocker - because he acts like so many others in the community that craziness has become the norm?

[JakeSully]

What a load of crap. Fox is covering the story in depth and offering all the different theories about the crime.

http://www.foxnews.com/

Considering the guy had:

- A license plate saying Confederate States of America

- A jacket with flags of the South African Apartheid flag and Rhodeisa (White Power over Blacks) flag

- Said to the victims black people rape his women and are taking over his country and need to go

Seems pretty obvious that you don't need theories anymore. It is what it is.. a right wing loony bin homegrown terrorist attack.

But no according to fox news, only browns and blacks can be terrorists.. keep drinking the kool-aid or wake up and smell the blood, up to you.

Edited June 19, 2015 by JakeSully

[sirineou]

I do not know of any gun lobby trying to dismiss the vile actions of nutcases like this Roof guy. Conservatives in America want this young man prosecuted to the full extent of the law. This young man should never have been given a Popsicle stick - not to mention a gun. Again - the system failed to take action to put this young man in confinement base on what I predict will be revealed about his mental health status -- just watch an see over the coming days and weeks. He will prove to be another prime example of the other young imbalanced men known by others to be on the edge - over the edge in actions and statements - yet little to no intervention is done out of the fear of a legal backlash to teachers - family - and friends.

As with the others who even look similar - odd to the extreme, often wild-eyed, espousing extreme ideologies, with records of not fitting in and worse, this young man will be shown to have all the same manifestations of poorly managed mental health issues as the others did. If I am proven wrong in the coming days and weeks I will gladly stand corrected.

And the same as the Connecticut school shooting the parent allow access to a gun - in this case the father foolishly gave his odd ball son a .45 pistol. Head shaking and hair pulling that the actions of a parent / father could be so dumb.

Has the insanity in the youth of America gotten so prevalent that a parent cannot recognize that their child is off his rocker - because he acts like so many others in the community that craziness has become the norm?

Though it might not had helped in this or many other instances, no one should be allowed to own a gun, with out a background check.

The private exchange exclusion, allows a father to buy a gun having gone through a background procedure, one would hope, and then give this gun to his son who has not be checked.

As to , how could the father not know about his son?

often parents , either don't know, or are in denial .

How many massacres must we endure before we take action?

[Gecko123]

They're speculating that this guy's hatred was likely fueled and reinforced by "one-sided echo chamber website forums" which spew racial hatred and right wing ideology.

I respectfully ask TVF NEWS FORUM members to reflect whether "one-sided echo chamber website forum" isn't an accurate description of some of these forums, and the potential damage this may be causing.

[sdanielmcev]

Well, turns out this Roof guy has a lot of black friends. Kills the racism claim. And, one more time, that quote from the NAACP person was not a direct quote from an eyewitness, as she herself said.

[Publicus]

It might be right to return to US history by reviving the first US anti-terrorism laws in a present form.

Why calling the Charleston shooting terrorism is important to so many people

Anti-black terrorism perpetrated by the Ku Klux Klan was the reason for the first federal anti-terrorism law the US ever passed.

The first anti-terrorism law in U.S. history was the Klan Control Act, so really, this has been the definition of terrorism @jongardnersc

— jelani cobb (@jelani9) June 18, 2015

In the 21st century, terrorism is typically associated with Muslim extremism; when white people commit mass shootings, their ideology isn't as often brought to the fore. But because of the history of terrorism in the South, for many, labeling the Charleston church shooting terrorism is a way to recognize that black lives matter.

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/18/8803721/charleston-terrorism-racism/in/8568286

Edited June 19, 2015 by Publicus

[Publicus]

Well, turns out this Roof guy has a lot of black friends. Kills the racism claim. And, one more time, that quote from the NAACP person was not a direct quote from an eyewitness, as she herself said.

The world except for the far out right wing sees the guy as a psychotic and a racist.

I am certain time will prove you wrong and it won't take long either.

In fact you are wrong already.