Is there any benefit to an employer for his employee to have permanent residency?

[inquisitive]

I have been waiting since 2009 to get my approval for permanent residency. It finally arrived today but my circumstances have changed in the last six years, and now the PR status isn't really of so much benefit to me anymore. The bottom line is that I'd take it if it was free but now I can't see spending the full snd huge cost to get it.

OTOH, I was wondering if there might be a some reason why my employer might think it was of benefit to him. Perhaps his tax situation would change, or whatever.

My plan is to tell him of the situation and say I'd go through the last checklist of hoops I need to jump through if he wanted to foot the bill. Does anyone know any reason why an employer might consider such an offer? I'd want to point it out to him if there was one.

Thanks for your feedback, and congratulations to all the others that waited so many years and finally have met with success. I know that PR is a fantastic thing under the right circumstances. It's just that the inordinate delay has caused various changes in my life and it's just not worth any more investment for me. I wish there was some way I could pass my letter on to someone who could benefit more.

Any ideas or even half ideas are welcome.

[konying]

Perm residency I believe only benefits you and makes no difference to employer.

Citizenship would be a different cattle of fish

[ubonjoe]

Not sure how your employer handles your extensions of stay. There could be a considerable cost and time savings since you would not longer need them with PR.

Unless you are getting them already you should be able to easily get a 2 year work permit each time with PR. PR should also reduce some of the paperwork needed.

Prior to the 2010 changes to the ministerial regulations for work permits your employer would of not needed to show 4 Thai employees. I think even the registered capital was reduced. It is possible that some work permit offices might still be still reducing some of the requirements.

You need to remember some of the advantages to you. One is that you will no longer have extensions that are tied to your job. Loose you job now and your extension goes away. Also if you want to change jobs the only thing you have to get for the new jofb is the work permit where as most cases you would have to leave the country to get a new visa and start all over again.

[samran]

If you are going to stay here indefinetly then PR is worth it.

It is unquantifiable to be sure, but the inability to be kicked out and not be reliant on immigtation will mean that the investment will be worth it even from a financial perspective, as any employer is going to view you a long term benefit who has shown their commitment to the place and unlikely to run off when things get tough.

The peace of mind it gives you also allows you to take your time in making decisions on how to build your life here.

And don't forget the other stuff, home loans etc from banks are now possible too.

[Soutpeel]

to me if you have come this far in the process and believe your future is permanent in Thailand, I would say go for it, pay for it, irrespective of any "employer benefits"

do some employers in other countries, sponsor and pay for PR for prospective employees from other countries ?...yes they do, but have never heard of it in the Thai context as such.

Rather than focus on the "employer" benefit of PR, think about your own plans/goals, if your intending to stay only a few more years in Thailand for example then move somewhere else permanently, never to reside full time in Thailand again then most likely not worth taking the PR, but if you are staying for the rest of your foreseeable life , then go for it irrespective of whether employer will pay for it or not

After 14 years on WP's here, I guess I could have applied for PR, but as my intention has never been to stay permanently, never pursued it as I already have dual nationality so have an alternative "bolt hole" if I ever needed it anyway

[Tomtomtom69]

to me if you have come this far in the process and believe your future is permanent in Thailand, I would say go for it, pay for it, irrespective of any "employer benefits"

do some employers in other countries, sponsor and pay for PR for prospective employees from other countries ?...yes they do, but have never heard of it in the Thai context as such.

Rather than focus on the "employer" benefit of PR, think about your own plans/goals, if your intending to stay only a few more years in Thailand for example then move somewhere else permanently, never to reside full time in Thailand again then most likely not worth taking the PR, but if you are staying for the rest of your foreseeable life , then go for it irrespective of whether employer will pay for it or not

After 14 years on WP's here, I guess I could have applied for PR, but as my intention has never been to stay permanently, never pursued it as I already have dual nationality so have an alternative "bolt hole" if I ever needed it anyway

Given the hassles of obtaining yearly extensions, the threat of having to leave the country almost immediately when your job ends, I can't see any good reason NOT to go for PR. Sure, it's not cheap but most westerners easily earn enough money in just a couple of months to pay for it. If I was living in any country for say 14 years, I'd actually be seriously pissed at still being treated like a new arrival and not at least possessing a PR if not citizenship. Even if you end up leaving the country eventually, but if you've been here for 14 years you're most likely not going to leave...let's be honest about that.

I have 3 passports BTW but given the chance to obtain a Thai one, why not? I'd take it in a heartbeat, but unless the law changes it'll be a few more years on work permits before that happens although fortunately one can now skip the PR process altogether and just go for citizenship after being married to a Thai for 3 years. Of course just like PR, after having applied it can take years before it becomes official.

[Soutpeel]

to me if you have come this far in the process and believe your future is permanent in Thailand, I would say go for it, pay for it, irrespective of any "employer benefits"

do some employers in other countries, sponsor and pay for PR for prospective employees from other countries ?...yes they do, but have never heard of it in the Thai context as such.

Rather than focus on the "employer" benefit of PR, think about your own plans/goals, if your intending to stay only a few more years in Thailand for example then move somewhere else permanently, never to reside full time in Thailand again then most likely not worth taking the PR, but if you are staying for the rest of your foreseeable life , then go for it irrespective of whether employer will pay for it or not

After 14 years on WP's here, I guess I could have applied for PR, but as my intention has never been to stay permanently, never pursued it as I already have dual nationality so have an alternative "bolt hole" if I ever needed it anyway

Given the hassles of obtaining yearly extensions, the threat of having to leave the country almost immediately when your job ends, I can't see any good reason NOT to go for PR. Sure, it's not cheap but most westerners easily earn enough money in just a couple of months to pay for it. If I was living in any country for say 14 years, I'd actually be seriously pissed at still being treated like a new arrival and not at least possessing a PR if not citizenship. Even if you end up leaving the country eventually, but if you've been here for 14 years you're most likely not going to leave...let's be honest about that.

I have 3 passports BTW but given the chance to obtain a Thai one, why not? I'd take it in a heartbeat, but unless the law changes it'll be a few more years on work permits before that happens although fortunately one can now skip the PR process altogether and just go for citizenship after being married to a Thai for 3 years. Of course just like PR, after having applied it can take years before it becomes official.

what hassles ?....handing my pp over once a year to the company and getting back a few days later all stamped up for another year ?....that hassle you mean ?

turning up at immigration maybe once or twice a year maximum, 10 minutes down the road from me, typically 5 minutes to do a 90 day report, if i haven't been travelling in and out the country as much...that hassle you mean ?... and even more "hassle" now, as I can even do this on line...which really makes it a big "hassle"

What threat of having to leave the country if the job ends ?, if the job ended and I did decide to stay, which currently I am not, I would know at least 3 months before the time and if required pretty sure the company would assist me through there agents their sources to facilitate alternative arrangements, which they have done for other people who has finished work, but the point is it wouldn't be case of one day employed, next out on my arse, get out the country would have plenty of time to plan things

Cant say I have ever felt like I have been treated like a new arrival in Thailand....not that I care, as not that shallow/insecure or so desperate for acceptance by the "natives"

Yes lets be honest, My current plan once the job is over is to go home and "retire" and to that end currently looking at properties at home for this exact purpose as I figure I got 3-5 years left in this position.

[dbrenn]

If you plan to stay in Thailand long term, you should take the opportunity to get your PR.

Visa rules get tougher all the time, and PR gives you peace of mind in never having to worry about getting visas again.

[samran]

If you plan to stay in Thailand long term, you should take the opportunity to get your PR.

Visa rules get tougher all the time, and PR gives you peace of mind in never having to worry about getting visas again.

While the OP's circumstances may have changed, life has a funny habit of changing them again, making us wish we took advantage of an opportunity at one time in the past..

[dbrenn]

If you plan to stay in Thailand long term, you should take the opportunity to get your PR.

Visa rules get tougher all the time, and PR gives you peace of mind in never having to worry about getting visas again.

While the OP's circumstances may have changed, life has a funny habit of changing them again, making us wish we took advantage of an opportunity at one time in the past..

Right - the OP should take whatever opportunities come his way, so as to keep his options open in the future.

Whether or not he chooses to live or work here in future, he'll always have the reassuring thought that Thailand is a country where he can always move to whenever he pleases, with no bureaucratic hurdles to doing so.

I'd have regretted not taking my PR, even though it was a hassle at the time.

[inquisitive]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

[samran]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Aye, but then you go for citizenship and get to wait 5.5 years in line like my wife has! A special form of persistence!

All the best whatever you decided, but I'm (clearly) rooting for you to go for it...!

[blackcab]

Are you going anywhere in a hurry? If not then get it and go for citizenship as already mentioned.

I'm sure it does seem like a lot of money, but that's now. When you're retired and look back it will seem like peanuts.

Kind of like when my dad tells me what he paid for his first car...

[dbrenn]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

[sas_cars]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

Such an inspirational post !

[Arkady]

I can't see any advantage to an employer. As Ubonjoe points out, there used to be an advantage to smaller companies in that no Thai employees were needed for a PR's WP, a privilege I once took advantage of. But that privilege was removed around 2011. When I moved back to a large company as a PR, I was actually a nuisance to the HR dept because they were using the one-stop service for all their other expats and had successfully outsourced all the processing to a quasi law firm that did a good job. WP's for PRs can't be done at the one-stop service and they had to apply for mine and the renewals themselves at the Labour Ministry themselves, as the quasi law firm only did the one-stop service, which was a headache for them. Of course, there was a cost advantage because I had to pay for re-entry permits at CW myself. Luckily my employer agreed to pay for my PR without going into much detail but the final payment was only B50,000 at the time.

I would have paid for myself anyway, if my employer had refused, and I would suggest that anyone who intends to stay in the Kingdom should do likewise, particularly if they have already jumped through all the hoops. It's annoying and ridiculous that you still need a WP but it is worth it knowing that you have no further problems staying in Thailand for the rest of your life. Annual re-entry permits are also a pain but it is totally routine and there is no risk of being suddenly confronted with some new requirement at the whim of an official or a change of regulations. You have to front up in person but it only takes a few minutes and you can send a messenger to pick the stuff up, if you don't want to hang around or come back later. You can buy a condo without showing source of funds. You can legally buy a gun easily (if you live in Bkk) - I know not every one wants one but some do. You can apply for Thai citizenship without having to be married to a Thai. Surely the privileges of PR should be more than they are for what you pay but longer-term it's certainly a better deal than the Thai Elite card, even if you don't get picked up from the airport.

[louse1953]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

The present govt.of Aust are putting through new laws concerning dual citizenship.They can revoke your citizenship for any reason they deem fit and this task is left up to the minister,no judicial overview.The right to die as an Ozzy is not in your hands.

[dbrenn]

I'm really grateful for all the good observations and advice I've been receiving. Thank you all. I'm particularly moved by the observation that life is unpredictable and we'd best grab whatever opportunities we can whenever they appear. Opposing this sound advice in this particular instance is the fact that life IS unpredictable, and anyone holding permanent residency losses it forever if he doesn't return to the Kingdom at least once every 365 days. So once the PR holder returns to his homeland, he has to return here like clockwork come sickness, health, accidents, and surprises, or else the whole concept falls apart. Unless he keeps up his "reverse border runs" forever, he really doesn't have the reassurance that he can always return. That's the single largest point against spending so much for the PR so far as I'm concerned.

I'm still on the fence about all this, though all your good advice has inched me a little closer to springing for the huge cost even if my employer doesn't see any benefit to stepping up to the plate. Thank you again.

Look on the bright side - PR in Thailand only requires only that you have a short holiday here every year, so as to renew your re-entry permit if you are living overseas.

Contrast that with Australian PR, which I got as an independent skilled migrant while living here in 2004. The Aussies require that you spend two out of every five years in Australia to maintain your PR. This rule eventually forced me to move to Australia in 2008, as time was running out, so reluctant was I to lose the Oz PR that I had gone to such trouble to get. At first, I hated the place, having spent 20 years in Thailand. It felt like part of my soul had been ripped out. Once I got used to it, however, I fell in love with it, and have been missing Australia in many ways ever since I came back here to work. Australia is a grand and beautiful country, with a healthy and wholesome lifestyle, that cured many of the bad habits that I had acquired since moving to Thailand as a young man. Bangkok, on the other hand, is a God-forsaken dump by most sensible measures of comparison, once one reaches middle age.

Even when I left Australia to come and work over here, I kept my options open, becoming an Australian citizen while over there, the wife too, so we can go back there any time we please, a right that stays with us until the day that we die.

Opportunities are few and far between, so never burn bridges. The money that you spend on your PR will soon be forgotten about, whereas the regret at losing an opportunity may well stay with you forever.

The present govt.of Aust are putting through new laws concerning dual citizenship.They can revoke your citizenship for any reason they deem fit and this task is left up to the minister,no judicial overview.The right to die as an Ozzy is not in your hands.

Eh? Along with places like the UK, they are talking about revoking citizenships for dual national people who are convicted of terrorism, which is quite reasonable and just as far as I an see.

I don't how drawing attention to such an extreme set of circumstances affects that huge majority of peaceful people who migrate to Australia. It's as irrelevant to this topic as saying something blatantly obvious like "Don;t take your freedom for granted in Australia. If you commit mass murder, they won't let you walk the streets any more".

[samran]

So what happens if you come to Thailand to work on an expat/foreign hire contract and then obtain PR? It seems to me that an employer could then deem you a local hire and you would potentially lose all the nice perks & benefits that come with an expat hire contract. Anyone know for sure?

A market is a market. I have a Thai passport. Do you think I charge my clients 300 baht per day?

People either pay you what they are worth or don't, regardless of PR status.

[Soutpeel]

So what happens if you come to Thailand to work on an expat/foreign hire contract and then obtain PR? It seems to me that an employer could then deem you a local hire and you would potentially lose all the nice perks & benefits that come with an expat hire contract. Anyone know for sure?

I don't think you fully understand the term local hire, I have neither PR or citizenship and was employed by an MNC as a "local hire" and have "expat" perks

Residence status has nothing to do with it and it would be a p*ss poor employer who would try that one on, if they did

[blackcab]

So what happens if you come to Thailand to work on an expat/foreign hire contract and then obtain PR? It seems to me that an employer could then deem you a local hire and you would potentially lose all the nice perks & benefits that come with an expat hire contract. Anyone know for sure?

I can answer for UK companies. If you were continuously employed for several years while the PR process was completed and then the company unilaterally changed the terms and conditions of your employment contract without your consent then the company is in breach of the Employment Rights Act 1996. There are less formal ways of resolving the situation, such as mediation, all the way to the employee resigning and claiming constructive dismissal.

For the type of expat salary we are talking about, that sort of action is almost guaranteed to cost the company a lot of money, on top of all the unpaid wages and interest. Which is why it is unlikely to happen, as the company would lose far more than it would gain.

In addition, the employee has the right to ask for reinstatement, so as well as having to pay compensation the company could be ordered to re-hire the employee on the original terms and conditions.

As you can imagine, for most UK companies, most of the time, it's not going to be worth it to pursue this course of action.

[inquisitive]

I thank all of you for your great advice. Since I last reported, I made an appointment with the ministry. They said they were booked about a month ahead, so the appointment is next week. I was told that once I handed over my 197,000 baht fee, the business in the ministry would take 2 days. Because of this and that, however, they would be sure to get me finished in a single day. They also made it clear that they expected a gratuity for the expedited service. (They were quite gentle and polite about it. In fact they said it didn't even need to be very much money at all. Quite fascinating conversation all in all)

Then I have to pick up other documents and bring them to the amphur where I would be registered.

I called that office and was told that I would need an appointment and I would be tested, interviewed, etc. . I had to bring my local poo yai and a neighbor. If I passed, the process would take about a week.

[inquisitive]

Since making the appointment at the ministry, they called me twice to be sure I was coming and to remind me to bring the w 197,000 baht.

I've also learned that once I have the PR, whenever I want to leave the country I need to travel to an immigration office on a day and time they have normal hours, and pay them 5 times the amount of money that I normally pay with either a work visa or a retirement visa. This can't be done at the airport.

So once they've prodded and tested me and my contacts, once they've gotten personal recommendations from extremely high-level government officials, and after being interviewed on tape before a panel of experts to be absolutely sure I am the kind of person who would bring benefit to Thailand, then they want nearly 200,000 baht in cash, plus more under the table both on a federal and local level, and they want to make it more difficulty for me to travel than if I were a football hooligan on a expat tour.

I really feel bad to say that they have convinced me to pass on their kind invitation. I will remain here on my 2 year work visa, and when I retire again I'll go back to 1 year retirement visas. I respect the opinions of those who see this differently and I think you made some very good points. As you can see by the narrative, I decided to get the PR, but then the policies and attitudes that surrounded it made me feel I would be more of a captive than guest.

Thanks again for all the great input.

[dbrenn]

Since making the appointment at the ministry, they called me twice to be sure I was coming and to remind me to bring the w 197,000 baht.

I've also learned that once I have the PR, whenever I want to leave the country I need to travel to an immigration office on a day and time they have normal hours, and pay them 5 times the amount of money that I normally pay with either a work visa or a retirement visa. This can't be done at the airport.

So once they've prodded and tested me and my contacts, once they've gotten personal recommendations from extremely high-level government officials, and after being interviewed on tape before a panel of experts to be absolutely sure I am the kind of person who would bring benefit to Thailand, then they want nearly 200,000 baht in cash, plus more under the table both on a federal and local level, and they want to make it more difficulty for me to travel than if I were a football hooligan on a expat tour.

I really feel bad to say that they have convinced me to pass on their kind invitation. I will remain here on my 2 year work visa, and when I retire again I'll go back to 1 year retirement visas. I respect the opinions of those who see this differently and I think you made some very good points. As you can see by the narrative, I decided to get the PR, but then the policies and attitudes that surrounded it made me feel I would be more of a captive than guest.

Thanks again for all the great input.

Yep - the last part of PR, where you pick it up, is the part where they give you the runaround. Going to immigration, the Ampher and the police station. That said, once it's done, it's done, and the PR stays with you for life.

Most places that issue PR have regulations about re-entry visas, so Thailand is not alone in its requirement for PR holders to apply for a visa to re-enter.

It's a shame you fell at the last hurdle.

[inquisitive]

I respect your point of view, but it was not the last hurdle that got me. Rather, it was the fact that once I got PR, I actually would become less free than I am now unless I remained a captive and never left the Kingdom. And then there is the point that there really is no guarantee that anyone really has their PR "for life". As much as I love this country and its people, there is a great sense of entitlement and arrogance among those who have bought their positions. Just look at the amphur leaders I contacted. They honestly felt that even after I paid the Ministry 200,000 baht and had the personal approval of the Minister, he could still squeeze the Farang for an envelope! You really have to be in awe of the chutzpah. Basically the people who run things believe that the rules don't mean anything. So then how could anyone have faith in any of their promises? Lord Chamberlain once felt sure that Hitler's signed promises also had value, but eventually learned that he needed to observe the bigger picture and not give too much credence to government promises and official documents. For me, it appears that I would be giving up a level of freedom for an illusion of stability and acceptance. I felt that I would actually be worse off than if I stayed as n outsider. In some ways it is like the decision to own or rent one's home. Neither side can be sure in advance whether they made the right choice. I thank you once again for your sincere help.

[samran]

For what its worth - I've always ignored requests for gratuities. In your case I'd just find another district office.

Doesn't mean that I haven bought in baskets of gifts. I'll be doing that (shortly I hope!) for my wife's offical granting of Thai citizenship for the folks at Special Branch.

As for the PR - well I guess you are right. Plenty of people find enough permanence in it, but no PR is forever unless you don't intend to travel. It is really a step to citizenship.

It isn't too different to other places. I have Thai friends with ILR in the UK. They still trek back every so often to maintain it, lest they lose it after being away for 2 years.

My wife has Australian PR, but we live in Thaiand for now. She only ever gets one year RRV's (essentially re-entry permits for her PR). The cost? $330 a pop. Otherwise he PR vanishes.

As the Khao San Rd shirts say - same same, but different.

[Arkady]

What's this express service fee about?

[inquisitive]

It wasn't described as a fee. The person soliciting the gift wasn't even the person to whom the envelope would be handed. They merely said that because mine was a special situation, and also because I lived out of town, etc. they could arrange special handling of my case as a courtesy. They "encouraged" me to bring a gift for the official that would handle my case. I was told that if I brought such a gift in the morning, they it would insure my receiving my papers the same day. They were quite pleasant about the whole thing and very matter-of-fact.

I was reminded of when my father was robbed at gunpoint in Chicago many years ago. The robber apologized and explained that he had no choice since he had to buy drugs. He even gave my father cab fare to his hotel. It was all very civil and nice.