NATO retools for long-haul standoff with Russia

[thaibeachlovers]

That will put a dent in the UKs downsizing of the military. Unlike WW2 tanks, aircraft and ships cannot be quickly built nor can the manpower of the services be ramped up overnight. There are NO aircraft built exclusively in the UK but parts come from the UK, France, Germany, Spain and probably Italy. Take out ANY one of them and there will be NO European aircraft built.

The UK politicians especially over the last few years and under Big Dave's Con/Lib/Dem coalition have cut the UK armed forces down to the bone. They even literally ordered the cutting up and scrapping of the last batch of Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft and the net result of that is that there are NO maritime aircraft left in the UK outside of museums.

There are 2, count them, 2 aircraft carriers neither of which will be in service until 2018 and neither of which will have ANY aircraft until 2020 at the earliest. There are more nuclear submarines of the Royal Navy awaiting scrapping than are in service. (The problem is disposing of the old nuclear reactors somewhere).

The army is to be cut to a maximum of 80,000 men and women by 2017 with the Territorial Army recruiting to make up the numbers. Sadly the TA recruitment is running at only 30% or so of the target requirement.

The way that things are going with the UK military in the event of a serious confrontation even I expect a recall to serve in the RAF again and I am 71.

Sadly the TA recruitment is running at only 30% or so of the target requirement.

I served in the TA equivalent in my country after leaving the regular army. I left the regulars because it was led by such a collection of morons that I could no longer stick it, though I loved being in the army for the lifestyle. I joined the "TA" because I thought it might provide a bit of extra income and something to do on the weekends, but unfortunately the idiots that were in charge were even more incompetent bastards than the regulars. The fact that the TA is only at 30% is IMO probably down to the people that they promote to positions of power.

However, I'd love it if they were to call me up, as I could really stuff them up, knowing what I know now. Revenge would be sweet.

[h90]

Thank you Mr. Putin for putting us back into a cold war. What a wonderful person you are.

Putin?? He neither did the coup in Ukraine nor did he move weapons to the border of other countries.

In fact it was promised that the NATO won't go close to Russia and encircle them when the Soviet split and let their members free.

[thaibeachlovers]

Thank you Mr. Putin for putting us back into a cold war. What a wonderful person you are.

Putin?? He neither did the coup in Ukraine nor did he move weapons to the border of other countries.

In fact it was promised that the NATO won't go close to Russia and encircle them when the Soviet split and let their members free.

No wonder Russians love Putin- he could take wimpy Obama with one hand tied behind his back.

[h90]

We are told elsewhere that the greatest threat to world security today is the IS but we are not sure who is the friend and who is the enemy in fighting them or what to do about it so look for an alternative boggy man.

Cant have a "Resurgent Russia" and as the economic war against them isn't producing the desired results lets try something different to provoke them.

"The latest changes at NATO follow broad policy decisions taken by U.S". That's the way to go EU and NATO follow along like good little puppy dogs.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to look back and see what some of the previous " Broad policy decisions taken by U.S" have led to.

So you'd like the US to pull completely out of Europe and let them simply go <deleted> themselves. God, how I'd love that. You and I could apparently be great friends.

Please also try to figure out how to remove the scars and pain from my father's hands that he got when a machine gun blew up in his hands on D-Day. God how I wish we could have a do-over on that and stay home.

Well I was drafted in Austria. Policy was if Soviet come we loose but slow them down for few days....mean most of use would be scarified to buy a few days for the NATO. After we loose we were a target for nuclear weapons to stop/slow down the Red Army. Which would mean the rest of us would die.

I don't need protectors and friends like that.

On the other hand after we lost the WW2 Soviet went back home on their own and gave us freedom again. So maybe Soviet and now Russia aren't the monsters propaganda tells us and maybe NATO and USA isn't the compassionate selfless friend we got told.

Or to be more realistic no one cares if the ordinary people dies....neither USA nor Russia

[NeverSure]

We are told elsewhere that the greatest threat to world security today is the IS but we are not sure who is the friend and who is the enemy in fighting them or what to do about it so look for an alternative boggy man.

Cant have a "Resurgent Russia" and as the economic war against them isn't producing the desired results lets try something different to provoke them.

"The latest changes at NATO follow broad policy decisions taken by U.S". That's the way to go EU and NATO follow along like good little puppy dogs.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to look back and see what some of the previous " Broad policy decisions taken by U.S" have led to.

So you'd like the US to pull completely out of Europe and let them simply go <deleted> themselves. God, how I'd love that. You and I could apparently be great friends.

Please also try to figure out how to remove the scars and pain from my father's hands that he got when a machine gun blew up in his hands on D-Day. God how I wish we could have a do-over on that and stay home.

Well I was drafted in Austria. Policy was if Soviet come we loose but slow them down for few days....mean most of use would be scarified to buy a few days for the NATO. After we loose we were a target for nuclear weapons to stop/slow down the Red Army. Which would mean the rest of us would die.

I don't need protectors and friends like that.

On the other hand after we lost the WW2 Soviet went back home on their own and gave us freedom again. So maybe Soviet and now Russia aren't the monsters propaganda tells us and maybe NATO and USA isn't the compassionate selfless friend we got told.

Or to be more realistic no one cares if the ordinary people dies....neither USA nor Russia

I'm sorry you went through that. Austria didn't get entangled in the USSR and suffer what those countries did after WWII until the Russians had to let go of the USSR because it went broke. Those people including the Russians suffered real poverty and a lack of freedom. The Russians and Ukrainians are still suffering. The Russian government has been nasty to its people.

You might note that the USA doesn't tend to capture and colonize but after WWII it not only helped the Japanese and others but certainly let them maintain autonomy. This was after outright surrenders by countries. The Russians have controlled many countries and people since WWII.

Be careful what you wish for.

[samuibeachcomber]

Thank you Mr. Putin for putting us back into a cold war. What a wonderful person you are.

It is Merkel who has put us back into the cold war. Her E,U expansionist plans.

Putin has been in power for along time and has never been a threat until this Ukraine situation created by Merkel..

Then you have the U.S wanting to put missiles in places like Poland,

Remember what happened when the old USSR were going to put missiles in Cuba. So you can expect a reaction from Russia.

I have no problem with Russia but I hate the Dictating E.U and I am English.

Having just spent a week in Ukraine, the locals are definitely not blaming Merkel for this. Nor the US. Anti Russian sentiment is high in Ukraine and the Baltic countries. Considering their history with Russia, it's easily understood.

Just spent a week in Lithuania, now in Latvia, heading to Estonia.

Keep us updated.

[samuibeachcomber]

If i remember rightly years ago a lady was democratically elected,she was pro west,hence the "orange revolution.Russia did n't like her and she got framed for some wrong doing.Another election(rigged) and a pro russian president came to power,then he was recently kicked out.Russia again did n't like it,took back crimea and infiltrated east ukraine with army personnel in civilian clothes to help eastern ukrainians who,supposedly wanted to remain russian.

The fact is the west part of ukraine want closer ties with europe and the east do not....so inevitably the ukraine will end up as two countries.As a country (imo) it's not worth going to war for.Sure russia feels encircled after 1991 as well as losing a lot of "stans" too,but they would do a lot better if they embraced a proper democracy rather than what they have now.

[Pakboong]

It should be obvious to everyone by now that Putin does not want a war. If he did, he would have never waited on NATO to set up shop on his doorstep. He is patiently hoping to kill the west at their own game. He is going after the global economy. He needs time to make that happen and we will not see him in a fight unless we attack and leave him no choice. There are no Russian units in Ukraine and here never has been. I find it hard to believe that so many are so gullible.

If it turns out that I am wrong about this, I will gladly apologize to the entire forum.

[JDGRUEN]

Wrong enemy --- wrong time -- wrong place... IS is a greater enemy ... and more immediate ... but the West will just be Politically Correct and Blind...

[Rancid]

Stupid European puppets getting Europe sucked into a conflict that was manufactured by the US for US Inc as Putin won't bark for them. The sanctions are hitting Europe more than Russia or US. However if it goes hot the bombs won't be falling on the US but on Europe. Brilliant political strategy, wonder what the payoff was, a bunker in NZ?

[craigt3365]

It should be obvious to everyone by now that Putin does not want a war. If he did, he would have never waited on NATO to set up shop on his doorstep. He is patiently hoping to kill the west at their own game. He is going after the global economy. He needs time to make that happen and we will not see him in a fight unless we attack and leave him no choice. There are no Russian units in Ukraine and here never has been. I find it hard to believe that so many are so gullible.

If it turns out that I am wrong about this, I will gladly apologize to the entire forum.

Putin has lied about troops in Crimea, and has admitted troops are in Ukraine. Just there on holiday. LOL

Plenty of evidence Russian hardware is in Ukraine. Impossible to refute this. So please don't try.

[NeverSure]

Putin is an evil person with a broken country and small dk syndrome. He isn't "going after the global economy" because first he doesn't himself have an economy and second his country has neither the skill or the engine to build one. Putin lives off the global economy by selling as much oil as he can. He's a one trick pony who, without oil, would be imprisoned in Siberia. by his starving people. Russia is a communist country with the responsibility to feed and house its people. It has its hands full trying to do that, with many families living in the same squalid apartment stacked up with three generations of people. They can only dream of how the West lives.

Russia will ultimately fail just as every communist endeavor eventually fails. Let's get something straight. Communism doesn't account for human nature. It begins with the false premise that all will work for the common good. Capitalism succeeds because it does account for human nature - the desire to get ahead of the pack. Neither is perfect of course but it's the capitalist countries that have the wealthiest people and best lifestyle for the masses.

Cheers

[NeverSure]

More. Here's why Russia will fail. Having money isn't enough for the masses. Money represents only what you could buy at the moment. Money is no good if there's inflation or even worse, if there's nothing available to buy. Unless the people have free access to tools, raw materials, and the means of production, nothing will appear in the form of new wealth including consumer goods.

New wealth is value added. Get some raw iron, some knowledge and some tools and take it though the entire process of turning it into a new car. That car is new wealth that made people money at every step and and resulted in someone having a new car. Someone buys it because he has money he made at some step of the process. He participated by doing his part to build 200 new cars for people and in the process he and others each earned enough for each to buy one car. New wealth is growing.

In the same way, plant a seed and harvest it as food and create new wealth. No one is going to do that if there isn't something in it for him. Timber in the forest is of no monetary value unless someone is motivated to harvest, haul, and process it into lumber which can become a new house. At each step the tree gets more valuable until the new house is new wealth. Everyone who participates in the process does so because he is motivated to have a house for himself, and all that goes with it. No one will be motivated if the new wealth will belong to someone else, especially the government.

This is why countries who embrace socialism see a decline of the middle and lower classes. The money they earn is taxed so much they can't accumulate enough new wealth. The same applies to the companies they work for. Only the government bureaucrats and the other slackers have any advantage, and even they will lose in the long run as the government runs out of "other people's money".

Russia is doomed.

Cheers

[thaibeachlovers]

Putin is an evil person with a broken country and small dk syndrome. He isn't "going after the global economy" because first he doesn't himself have an economy and second his country has neither the skill or the engine to build one. Putin lives off the global economy by selling as much oil as he can. He's a one trick pony who, without oil, would be imprisoned in Siberia. by his starving people. Russia is a communist country with the responsibility to feed and house its people. It has its hands full trying to do that, with many families living in the same squalid apartment stacked up with three generations of people. They can only dream of how the West lives.

Russia will ultimately fail just as every communist endeavor eventually fails. Let's get something straight. Communism doesn't account for human nature. It begins with the false premise that all will work for the common good. Capitalism succeeds because it does account for human nature - the desire to get ahead of the pack. Neither is perfect of course but it's the capitalist countries that have the wealthiest people and best lifestyle for the masses.

Cheers.

I haven't lived in the US but I'm sure I'd hate it for the fact that 1% live in obscene splendour while the majority struggle. I'd prefer to live in a socialist country like the UK except that the loony tunes PC mad dogs have destroyed it as a decent place to live. Sadly, it seems that the PC loony tunes have taken over every socialist country.

best lifestyle for the masses.

I really hope you aren't referring to the US!

[billd766]

That will put a dent in the UKs downsizing of the military. Unlike WW2 tanks, aircraft and ships cannot be quickly built nor can the manpower of the services be ramped up overnight. There are NO aircraft built exclusively in the UK but parts come from the UK, France, Germany, Spain and probably Italy. Take out ANY one of them and there will be NO European aircraft built.

The UK politicians especially over the last few years and under Big Dave's Con/Lib/Dem coalition have cut the UK armed forces down to the bone. They even literally ordered the cutting up and scrapping of the last batch of Nimrod maritime patrol aircraft and the net result of that is that there are NO maritime aircraft left in the UK outside of museums.

There are 2, count them, 2 aircraft carriers neither of which will be in service until 2018 and neither of which will have ANY aircraft until 2020 at the earliest. There are more nuclear submarines of the Royal Navy awaiting scrapping than are in service. (The problem is disposing of the old nuclear reactors somewhere).

The army is to be cut to a maximum of 80,000 men and women by 2017 with the Territorial Army recruiting to make up the numbers. Sadly the TA recruitment is running at only 30% or so of the target requirement.

The way that things are going with the UK military in the event of a serious confrontation even I expect a recall to serve in the RAF again and I am 71.

Do you not see the ulterior motive, an EU army controlled by Germany.

Actually I don't see any ulterior motive, just UK politicians repeating the history of the 1930s when the UK planned for war in 10 years time and just updated the plan every year. In the 1930s and 40s the UK was very lucky. In this decade we probably won't have the same sort of luck.

In 1943 a Wellington bomber was built from scratch in less than 24 hours.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_Wellington_LN514

Vickers Wellington LN514 was a Vickers Wellington bomber built in 1943 in record time, as part of a British propaganda effort during the Second World War.

The bomber was constructed in 23 hours and 50 minutes, and took off 24 hours and 48 minutes after the first parts of the airframe had been laid down, beating the previous record of 48 hours set by an American factory. It was constructed at the Vickers-Armstrongs factory in Broughton, Flintshire. The record attempt was the idea of the government to bolster morale at home and send a message abroad that British wartime manufacturing capacity was unaffected by German bombing.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-11107561

In the midst of World War II, workers at a Welsh aircraft factory gave up their weekend off to build a Wellington bomber from scratch in just 24 hours. Why? To set a new world record.

Nowadays to build just one Typhoon Eurofighter it would probably take at least 3 months.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon

The Eurofighter Typhoon is a twin-engine, canard-delta wing, multirole fighter.^[5][6] The Typhoon was designed and is manufactured by a consortium of three companies; Alenia Aermacchi, Airbus Group and BAE Systems, who conduct the majority of affairs dealing with the project through a joint holding company, Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH, which was formed in 1986. The project is managed by the NATO Eurofighter and Tornado Management Agency, which also acts as the prime customer.^[7]

Political issues in the partner nations significantly protracted the Typhoon's development; the sudden end of the Cold War reduced European demand for fighter aircraft, and there was debate over the cost and work share of the Eurofighter. The Typhoon was introduced into operational service in 2003. Currently, the type has entered service with the Austrian Air Force, the Italian Air Force, the German Air Force, the Royal Air Force, the Spanish Air Force, and the Royal Saudi Air Force. The Royal Air Force of Oman has also been confirmed as an export customer, bringing the procurement total to 571 aircraft as of 2013.

Ships take much longer to build.

Armies are a bit easier to build up but the cost to rebuild all 3 armed forces will be horrendous.

[ace]

Surely the cold war is in the middle East, the Russia, Iran, Syria axis? Being fought now in what's left or Iraq and Syria. Russia's not going to invade a NATO country and NATOs not going into east Ukraine (perhaps the west , Kiev I suppose).

[NeverSure]

Putin is an evil person with a broken country and small dk syndrome. He isn't "going after the global economy" because first he doesn't himself have an economy and second his country has neither the skill or the engine to build one. Putin lives off the global economy by selling as much oil as he can. He's a one trick pony who, without oil, would be imprisoned in Siberia. by his starving people. Russia is a communist country with the responsibility to feed and house its people. It has its hands full trying to do that, with many families living in the same squalid apartment stacked up with three generations of people. They can only dream of how the West lives.

Russia will ultimately fail just as every communist endeavor eventually fails. Let's get something straight. Communism doesn't account for human nature. It begins with the false premise that all will work for the common good. Capitalism succeeds because it does account for human nature - the desire to get ahead of the pack. Neither is perfect of course but it's the capitalist countries that have the wealthiest people and best lifestyle for the masses.

Cheers.

I haven't lived in the US but I'm sure I'd hate it for the fact that 1% live in obscene splendour while the majority struggle. I'd prefer to live in a socialist country like the UK except that the loony tunes PC mad dogs have destroyed it as a decent place to live. Sadly, it seems that the PC loony tunes have taken over every socialist country.

best lifestyle for the masses.

I really hope you aren't referring to the US!

Loony tune people do loony tune things including socialism, PC passing it out to the influx of strangers, and being EU and world inclusive. They do loony tune things like giving away their country's sovereignty to an unelected group and a world bank.

The same broken mind that can tell people that everyone else owes them a living and other benefits can extend that to people of other countries. The UK's debt has accelerated to where it's almost a big as that of the US as a percentage of GDP. The UK's problem is that it doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to ever pay it, yet the debt grows rapidly.

In the meantime the smug people of the UK want to criticize everyone who isn't in the same serious trouble they are. The US hasn't given up any of its sovereignty to any group not even the UN and it won't. That's not how it rocks and rolls.

The US has enough assets to sell and pay off it's debt. It owns more than 1/2 of the land from the Rocky Mountains to the West, 80% of Utah, most of Alaska, much of the land E. of the Rocky's and a plethora of federal buildings it could sell and lease back. It has vast tracts of timber and gobs of oil. I'm talking about land the federal government owns. Its assets are about twice as much as its debt. The UK has nothing as it's a tiny island in the middle of the frozen nowhere.

The people of the US also have an economic engine powered by many things and this is something the UK never heard of. What mass produced car is a good car that's British? No, the Brits do what other third world countries do - provide unskilled labor to build cars that other people designed.

The reason the Brits don't build TV sets is that they haven't figured out how to make them leak oil like their cars did.

See ya on the other side.

[TheAppletons]

I haven't lived in the US but I'm sure I'd hate it for the fact that 1% live in obscene splendour while the majority struggle. I'd prefer to live in a socialist country like the UK except that the loony tunes PC mad dogs have destroyed it as a decent place to live. Sadly, it seems that the PC loony tunes have taken over every socialist country.

best lifestyle for the masses.

I really hope you aren't referring to the US!

You have absolutely no clue. "The majority struggle", lol. Compared to what, Montecarlo?

It goes without saying - though I'll say it anyway - we'd prefer you live in a socialist country too.

[NeverSure]

I haven't lived in the US

No, but it's amazing how many dumb opinions you have. The people who work to get ahead have gobs of opportunity. Those who choose to languish in urban ghettos and pump out illegitimate babies are dirt poor. It's a choice.

The Ghettos have very large populations but they are confined and don't take up a noticeable amount of US space. The US is huge and it's easy to avoid those places. Sane people do. When you figure in those losers in the US statistics it doesn't account for the masses who don't have that lifestyle and who are doing fine.

If we could come up with statistics for the US economy and lifestyle that didn't include those people everything would turn upside down. The US is still the land of opportunity and those who are responsible do fine, thank you. If you could spend a month traveling the US on the ground you'd be amazed how big, beautiful, and prosperous it is.

See ya.

[simple1]

Loony tune people do loony tune things including socialism, PC passing it out to the influx of strangers, and being EU and world inclusive. They do loony tune things like giving away their country's sovereignty to an unelected group and a world bank.

The same broken mind that can tell people that everyone else owes them a living and other benefits can extend that to people of other countries. The UK's debt has accelerated to where it's almost a big as that of the US as a percentage of GDP. The UK's problem is that it doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to ever pay it, yet the debt grows rapidly.

In the meantime the smug people of the UK want to criticize everyone who isn't in the same serious trouble they are. The US hasn't given up any of its sovereignty to any group not even the UN and it won't. That's not how it rocks and rolls.

The US has enough assets to sell and pay off it's debt. It owns more than 1/2 of the land from the Rocky Mountains to the West, 80% of Utah, most of Alaska, much of the land E. of the Rocky's and a plethora of federal buildings it could sell and lease back. It has vast tracts of timber and gobs of oil. I'm talking about land the federal government owns. Its assets are about twice as much as its debt. The UK has nothing as it's a tiny island in the middle of the frozen nowhere.

The people of the US also have an economic engine powered by many things and this is something the UK never heard of. What mass produced car is a good car that's British? No, the Brits do what other third world countries do - provide unskilled labor to build cars that other people designed.

The reason the Brits don't build TV sets is that they haven't figured out how to make them leak oil like their cars did.

See ya on the other side.

UK has not given up its sovereignty. Have a read of the content at the URL below that talks to this matter in some detail.

http://www.euromove.org.uk/index.php?id=6505

Measured over the past two decades UK vehicle production is increasing, as is manufacturing output. However, its correct to say the largest component of the UK economy is the services industry. Did you know currently many cars produced in the US have an average of US$12k of foreign produced parts and wages are decreasing for those employed in the US automotive manufacturing industry?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-car-making-boom-not-for-workers-1427154627

It sounds like you've never heard of Crown Land, the Queen 'legally' owns 6.6 billion acres of land, but only governments can sell the land holdings.

You applaud US government not signing onto UN conventions. As an example tell me why the US is one of only three countries, the others are I believe are Somalia and Sudan - good company eh! - hasn't ratified the UN Convention for the Rights of Children.

UK government has always paid off national debt commitments, although there will be challenges, I can't see this tract record will change.

I do not know why you take great glee in attacking the UK or indeed Europe in general. Sure UK / Europe is not perfect, neither is the US. Unless you're just having some fun, nationalistic rants are unattractive.

[NeverSure]

Loony tune people do loony tune things including socialism, PC passing it out to the influx of strangers, and being EU and world inclusive. They do loony tune things like giving away their country's sovereignty to an unelected group and a world bank.

The same broken mind that can tell people that everyone else owes them a living and other benefits can extend that to people of other countries. The UK's debt has accelerated to where it's almost a big as that of the US as a percentage of GDP. The UK's problem is that it doesn't have the economic engine or the natural resources to ever pay it, yet the debt grows rapidly.

In the meantime the smug people of the UK want to criticize everyone who isn't in the same serious trouble they are. The US hasn't given up any of its sovereignty to any group not even the UN and it won't. That's not how it rocks and rolls.

The US has enough assets to sell and pay off it's debt. It owns more than 1/2 of the land from the Rocky Mountains to the West, 80% of Utah, most of Alaska, much of the land E. of the Rocky's and a plethora of federal buildings it could sell and lease back. It has vast tracts of timber and gobs of oil. I'm talking about land the federal government owns. Its assets are about twice as much as its debt. The UK has nothing as it's a tiny island in the middle of the frozen nowhere.

The people of the US also have an economic engine powered by many things and this is something the UK never heard of. What mass produced car is a good car that's British? No, the Brits do what other third world countries do - provide unskilled labor to build cars that other people designed.

The reason the Brits don't build TV sets is that they haven't figured out how to make them leak oil like their cars did.

See ya on the other side.

I do not know why you take great glee in attacking the UK or indeed Europe in general. Sure UK / Europe is not perfect, neither is the US. Unless you're just having some fun, nationalistic rants are unattractive.

I don't take great glee in attacking the UK. Perhaps you have noticed how much gratuitous bashing of Americans there is on here. I was stunned about that when I joined this forum. So as they say, "When in Rome..."