Solar Installation

[Crossy]

How does that work when power outage? Does the solar grid tie stuff detect that and cut off? What about brown outs?

Yea, I'm wondering it Thailand requires the inverters to support automatic anti-islanding protocols or detection circuitry.

Or if it's possible to distribute generated power only to the local circuit (during a power outage).

All the inverters approved by MEA / PEA have anti-islanding, in fact I've not seen a domestic class inverter that does not.

There are hybrid inverters available which provide UPS functionality from batteries (and the panels during the day) to keep local supplies on, when the batteries are full they act as grid-tie so your solar energy isn't wasted. Of course these are significantly more expensive.

[sfokevin]

Can you post a detailed listing of the costs... Breaking out components and install cost?... Thanks

When I said cost I meant the cost of the 256k install...

Detailed beakdown of cost of panels, inverter, install... Etc... Also is there a cost for PEA approval (new meter install) that is included or separate from the solar install cost?

[martie]

PM send

Hi Guys

Tried to add a reply from my recently repaired computer, now using the better half's, some of my replies might have made TV.

I am an Australian licensed electrical contractor, not a salesman, I have a Thai businessman as a partner, we are about to trial a solar storage system which stores power for later use like night time, heavy cloud cover, grid outages,

If you have a power bill of 4000 THB or over our system may be viable to you. It can be added to existing solar systems.

The system works, we are trialing it here so as to get local data not overseas data and as a demostration site.,

PM me if you require any more information.

Regards

BHW

[Muhendis]

Cheap panels can burn out,

What's the backstory on this photo though?

For all we know, the installer may have wired the system to exceed the max. series voltage of the panels.. or a hot cinder could have landed on them.. or they could be junk panels

A photo like this only raises questions, not answers

Yes a photo like this should be asking questions BUT we do not know the full fact off why BUT I would say it is down to the installer, installing to many panels in series, BUT what we also got to ask is why did the panel not fuse at the max out put voltage. Which is what they are designed to do. Hence the short circuit voltage.

Looking at the picture it is clear that the panels have fused and quite spectacularly at that. I think what you meant to say was the circuit fuses of each string should have blown before any damage was sustained. This clearly did not happen so from the evidence of the other panels looking relatively unharmed I would say that the installation was suspect and circuit protection inadequate.

[Muhendis]

My worry is that the system be damaged by bad weather (hail), although the panels are rated for 25mm ice @ 80kph.

It's pretty rare in BKK, but is insurance coverage available in Thailand for these systems?

The solar panels are put together as a laminated assembly using a layer of plastic and a layer of toughened glass with the PV cells in the middle the whole sandwich being held together with a film of extremely strong adhesive. They are extremely tough. The main problems come from the interconnecting ribbons between the cells. sometimes the connections are not made/soldered properly and a hot spot is created. This can cause the layer of glass to become stressed and shatter. The panel may still work but it's output will be affected.

[PeVee1st]

I too am very interested in Solar & appreciate the info.

I have some input which may not be accurate, so here goes....

I was told that when the installer did the quote he submitted the paperwork to MEA/PEA & got an authority to sell back to the grid.

Armed with the quote & MEA/PEA paperwork, the buyer could get a bank loan approved.

Regards.

[Mudcrab]

Its a 5KW single phase system

that does not answer my question. i have some figures for Central Europe and would like to compare them with those of Thailand. a pricewise investment comparison is not possible because especially in my home country photovoltaic installations are heavily subsidised.

In my area at 16.533 longitude they say I can expect 4.49 hours productive sunlight per day, check out thus site http://www.ecowho.com/tools/solar_power_calculator.php

That means I would generate about 22.45kWh per day on a 5kW system. Isaan is suppose to get 300 sunny days a year, so figure 22.45 * 300 = 6,735kWh per year or 18.45kWh per day. From what I understand you lose about 20% when it is converted to normal household current, so about 14.76kWh per day or 448.85kWh per month. That's about 40kWh more per month than I average without AC.

If you borrowed ฿257,000 amortized over 25 years at 6%, the lifespan of the system your payment would be ฿1,650 per month, that works out to about ฿3.68 per kWh, just slightly less than I am paying now. And that would be for the next 25 years, no rate increase.

Instead of building dirty coal plants in Laos, I can't understand why the Thai Government doesn't facilitate long term loans for people to build solar systems, they would not have to subsidize them. I am sure there are pension funds and insurance companies that would Love to have a safe 6% return on their money. If I have made a mistake in my calculation, please let me know.

The 25 years that is often quoted as the lifetime of the system usually refers only to the PV panels. Most of the inverters are quoted with a 10 year life. So you would need to factor in 2.5 inverter replacements over the 25 years.

I'm not saying that the inverter will suddenly die at the 10 year mark and it probably won't, but it is something to consider in the financial modelling.

From my experience with a smaller 1.5kW system at latitude 15 degrees south is that the system generates roughly around half of what the actual rating is. E.g over a hundred hours of generating time the system produces on average 0.75 kW.

I will probably add another couple of panels to lift the kWhr output i.e extend the effective generating capacity period.

This system has been installed for just on 5 years and has given no trouble to date. The biggest mistake I made was to assume that the system would produce 1.5kW for say 8 hours giving me 12kWhrs a day, which is what my power consumption was at the time. I should have installed a 3kW unit in hindsight.

I haven't cleaned the panels at all in this time as I can't be bothered (just rely on the wet season rains to do this for me) but after a while the build up of dust/dirt etc can degrade the system.

A friend told me about cleaning his panels and there was an immediate jump in output - not surprisingly.

My inverter is an SMA unit - Sunnyboy 1.7 and is mounted outside exposed to the elements but is very well sealed. The only fault is that the plastic (polycarb?) cover over the display has faded and it is hard to read now. No big deal really.

[Issangeorge]

Its a 5KW single phase system

that does not answer my question. i have some figures for Central Europe and would like to compare them with those of Thailand. a pricewise investment comparison is not possible because especially in my home country photovoltaic installations are heavily subsidised.

In my area at 16.533 longitude they say I can expect 4.49 hours productive sunlight per day, check out thus site http://www.ecowho.com/tools/solar_power_calculator.php

That means I would generate about 22.45kWh per day on a 5kW system. Isaan is suppose to get 300 sunny days a year, so figure 22.45 * 300 = 6,735kWh per year or 18.45kWh per day. From what I understand you lose about 20% when it is converted to normal household current, so about 14.76kWh per day or 448.85kWh per month. That's about 40kWh more per month than I average without AC.

If you borrowed ฿257,000 amortized over 25 years at 6%, the lifespan of the system your payment would be ฿1,650 per month, that works out to about ฿3.68 per kWh, just slightly less than I am paying now. And that would be for the next 25 years, no rate increase.

Instead of building dirty coal plants in Laos, I can't understand why the Thai Government doesn't facilitate long term loans for people to build solar systems, they would not have to subsidize them. I am sure there are pension funds and insurance companies that would Love to have a safe 6% return on their money. If I have made a mistake in my calculation, please let me know.

The 25 years that is often quoted as the lifetime of the system usually refers only to the PV panels. Most of the inverters are quoted with a 10 year life. So you would need to factor in 2.5 inverter replacements over the 25 years.

I'm not saying that the inverter will suddenly die at the 10 year mark and it probably won't, but it is something to consider in the financial modelling.

From my experience with a smaller 1.5kW system at latitude 15 degrees south is that the system generates roughly around half of what the actual rating is. E.g over a hundred hours of generating time the system produces on average 0.75 kW.

I will probably add another couple of panels to lift the kWhr output i.e extend the effective generating capacity period.

This system has been installed for just on 5 years and has given no trouble to date. The biggest mistake I made was to assume that the system would produce 1.5kW for say 8 hours giving me 12kWhrs a day, which is what my power consumption was at the time. I should have installed a 3kW unit in hindsight.

I haven't cleaned the panels at all in this time as I can't be bothered (just rely on the wet season rains to do this for me) but after a while the build up of dust/dirt etc can degrade the system.

A friend told me about cleaning his panels and there was an immediate jump in output - not surprisingly.

My inverter is an SMA unit - Sunnyboy 1.7 and is mounted outside exposed to the elements but is very well sealed. The only fault is that the plastic (polycarb?) cover over the display has faded and it is hard to read now. No big deal really.

At 15° you should get peak sun of about 4.53 hours average year round for 300 days so you should average 5.58 kWh per day, is that about what you are averaging?

[Mudcrab]

The 25 years that is often quoted as the lifetime of the system usually refers only to the PV panels. Most of the inverters are quoted with a 10 year life. So you would need to factor in 2.5 inverter replacements over the 25 years.

I'm not saying that the inverter will suddenly die at the 10 year mark and it probably won't, but it is something to consider in the financial modelling.

From my experience with a smaller 1.5kW system at latitude 15 degrees south is that the system generates roughly around half of what the actual rating is. E.g over a hundred hours of generating time the system produces on average 0.75 kW.

I will probably add another couple of panels to lift the kWhr output i.e extend the effective generating capacity period.

This system has been installed for just on 5 years and has given no trouble to date. The biggest mistake I made was to assume that the system would produce 1.5kW for say 8 hours giving me 12kWhrs a day, which is what my power consumption was at the time. I should have installed a 3kW unit in hindsight.

I haven't cleaned the panels at all in this time as I can't be bothered (just rely on the wet season rains to do this for me) but after a while the build up of dust/dirt etc can degrade the system.

A friend told me about cleaning his panels and there was an immediate jump in output - not surprisingly.

My inverter is an SMA unit - Sunnyboy 1.7 and is mounted outside exposed to the elements but is very well sealed. The only fault is that the plastic (polycarb?) cover over the display has faded and it is hard to read now. No big deal really.

At 15° you should get peak sun of about 4.53 hours average year round for 300 days so you should average 5.58 kWh per day, is that about what you are averaging?

It would be around that level.

[Cabrinha]

Hi Ginboy,

You gave us information after the system was working for 7 days in very cloudy and rain conditions. Can you give us any update now after a longer period has passed?

Many thanks

Cabrinha

[GinBoy2]

OK sorry for 'ignoring' everyone, but honestly after a few months I've stopped thinking about it.

The system hums away in the background and I really don't take much notice of it anymore. That being said, it has done pretty much what I wanted and expected it to, halving my monthly PEA bill. The daily, weekly power generation is still pretty much in line with the figures I posted before, up and down depending on weather conditions.

As for paperwork. Still not received a thing, but nobody seems to care or has contacted me, so for right now I'm in the kinda, who cares mode.

[IMHO]

OK sorry for 'ignoring' everyone, but honestly after a few months I've stopped thinking about it.

The system hums away in the background and I really don't take much notice of it anymore. That being said, it has done pretty much what I wanted and expected it to, halving my monthly PEA bill. The daily, weekly power generation is still pretty much in line with the figures I posted before, up and down depending on weather conditions.

As for paperwork. Still not received a thing, but nobody seems to care or has contacted me, so for right now I'm in the kinda, who cares mode.

Did your meter get changed, or another one added? Or is it still spinning your old meter backwards?

[GinBoy2]

OK sorry for 'ignoring' everyone, but honestly after a few months I've stopped thinking about it.

The system hums away in the background and I really don't take much notice of it anymore. That being said, it has done pretty much what I wanted and expected it to, halving my monthly PEA bill. The daily, weekly power generation is still pretty much in line with the figures I posted before, up and down depending on weather conditions.

As for paperwork. Still not received a thing, but nobody seems to care or has contacted me, so for right now I'm in the kinda, who cares mode.

Did your meter get changed, or another one added? Or is it still spinning your old meter backwards?

Nope, nothing got changed, meter spins backwards.

My wife knows people in the local PEA office and it would appear they care even less then me. So TIT and life goes on. I think so long as you bill doesn't go negative they don't really care very much, at least thats what I understand from the local office

[Crossy]

Thanks for the update GB, I suspected that 'nothing happening' would be the case but it's nice to get confirmation

[GinBoy2]

Well a little update on the paperwork. Finally got the stuff from the installer that I need to take to PEA. This isn't a single piece of paper it's a pack.

Everything from details of the system, spec sheets etc, the ID card of the supervisor of the install, pictures of the panel install, the inverter on the wall...I think you get the picture.

This needs to be taken to the regional office in Korat, which a good two hour drive for me, and since it would appear no-one has been in any rush to get this to me, I'll get to that in the fullness of time

[Crossy]

Thanks for the update GB. Copy everything before taking it to PEA, just in case it gets, er, 'lost'.

Meanwhile how's the system performing, anything interesting to report?

[GinBoy2]

Nope, same as before it's pretty invisible. I did have one incident when, as can happen here I got a dip in line voltage from PEA, that kicked off the inverter until the line voltage stabilized, other than that nothing.

Here's a pic of the paperwork 'pack'....

[GettingOlder]

Hi GB2,

I also congrat you for the nice and for many of us important info. I myself recently moved to Bang Saray, Sattahip, and considering installing solar power, but I want it to supply energy in case of grid power failure which happens quite often here. And would like later to be able to add a battery storage system, when those costs have gone down... Can you confirm if your installation is of this socalled Island type, where inverter automatically shuts down in case of grid failure so your panels thus cannot provide you with local energy during the out-period? And have you had any thoughts about adding energy storage to tap from during the night etc.?

Thanks in advance

[GinBoy2]

Hi GB2,

I also congrat you for the nice and for many of us important info. I myself recently moved to Bang Saray, Sattahip, and considering installing solar power, but I want it to supply energy in case of grid power failure which happens quite often here. And would like later to be able to add a battery storage system, when those costs have gone down... Can you confirm if your installation is of this socalled Island type, where inverter automatically shuts down in case of grid failure so your panels thus cannot provide you with local energy during the out-period? And have you had any thoughts about adding energy storage to tap from during the night etc.?

Thanks in advance

You are correct, mine is a grid connected system. No line voltage from PEA and the inverter shuts down too.

I wasn't really too interested in adding offline capability, it adds quite a bit to the cost and I was looking for a reasonably quick ROI

[Naam]

what about having limited and selected offline capability for basic needs when the grid fails?

[BHW]

Hi Naam & other poster today

Edit: email address removed, as per Forum Rules.

If you wish to contact, use PM.

[IMHO]

Hi GB2,

I also congrat you for the nice and for many of us important info. I myself recently moved to Bang Saray, Sattahip, and considering installing solar power, but I want it to supply energy in case of grid power failure which happens quite often here. And would like later to be able to add a battery storage system, when those costs have gone down... Can you confirm if your installation is of this socalled Island type, where inverter automatically shuts down in case of grid failure so your panels thus cannot provide you with local energy during the out-period? And have you had any thoughts about adding energy storage to tap from during the night etc.?

Thanks in advance

This is possible with the right type of hybrid inverter and sufficient battery storage.

[IMHO]

When black outs happens at day time, will this work:

Install two, or more grid-tied inverters. They will synchronise to the grid and to each other. When grid fails they continue synchronising to each other. Must only be a device in place what disconnect the house from the electricity supplier.

Then you have electricity, when the black-out happens during day time.

I have no idea if on this way a grid-tied inverter can be 'mis lead'?

In that case when many houses supply to the grid, and the grid fails, it can also be energizer when this should work. So probably no change ....???

The grid tie inverters I've looked at all support parallel units - i.e. the anti-islanding protection systems will not be fooled by another inverter on the same mains line.

I'm guessing it because without mains present, there's no AC waveform to follow - i.e. they're trying to sync to the same frequency as the mains, so no mains means no sync clock, no matter how many inverters there are.

[IMHO]

For those interested in doing a grid-tie system, Amorn Solar now publish prices all-inclusive of installation:

http://www.amornsolar.com/promotion-install.php

Prices for single phase systems range from about 54-65 Baht per watt-hour.

[Pacificperson]

Does anyone know how these grid-tie systems work with a generator in the case of a power outage?

[BHW]

You don't need generator, you need Off Grid system, excess generated solar power stored in batteries during the day, used during outages & night time.

Extra capital innvestment, but can reduce tour power by 50%, at least, plus no fuel for generator.

[BHW]

They will give you professional advice, no Blar Blar, will competively quote you value for money system eithet Off Grid or On Grid.

They will come and visit you, any where in Thailand, with a genuine enquiry.

PM me for email address.

[RichCor]

Does anyone know how these grid-tie systems work with a generator in the case of a power outage?

You can place a "Transfer Switch" on the Incomer Line going to your CU (Breaker Box), that would allow you to manually or automatically select what 'power source' is fed into the CU (Breaker Box) and on into your residence.

The Transfer Switch would provide full n-Way isolation.

The Solar Panels and Inverter remain connected to the Grid-Tied Mains (and may continue to feed power to the Grid even if you've used the Transfer Switch to draw energy for the residence from another generating source).

[thedivezone]

For those interested in doing a grid-tie system, Amorn Solar now publish prices all-inclusive of installation:

http://www.amornsolar.com/promotion-install.php

Prices for single phase systems range from about 54-65 Baht per watt-hour.

Wow ! The 3 kW on-grid single phase system is quoted at 107 000 baht full install, if i read this correctly, have the prices come down that much since Ginboy did his? Or is there something missing in this package ?

Coupled with the price increase for electricity by 12 % effective nov 16th this looks like a good opportunity to get into solar.

[IMHO]

For those interested in doing a grid-tie system, Amorn Solar now publish prices all-inclusive of installation:

http://www.amornsolar.com/promotion-install.php

Prices for single phase systems range from about 54-65 Baht per watt-hour.

Wow ! The 3 kW on-grid single phase system is quoted at 107 000 baht full install, if i read this correctly, have the prices come down that much since Ginboy did his? Or is there something missing in this package ?

Coupled with the price increase for electricity by 12 % effective nov 16th this looks like a good opportunity to get into solar.

They way I read it, the 3kw single phase system is 103K Baht for parts only (DIY install), or 172,550 fully installed (current meter spinning backwards), or 186,500 fully installed as part of the solar rooftop scheme (where you have 2 meters).