Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Tony121]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Yes a headman who was picking coconuts and living in a bamboo hut 35 years ago before the tourists came,

A headman who runs a small rock in the sea with a population of 3,000 mostly burmese,

He even has more power than the red bull family as the police charged him and he is on the run, The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

I bet you most of the "top brass" didn't even know where koh tao is before the murders

The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

Well, you're about half right. He was charged and brought to trial ONLY after hiding out in another country (Malaysia or Indonesia, I forget which) for over a year, giving his father time to "fix" things, so that when he finally did go to trial, none of the previous witnesses would testify against him, with quite a few of them clearly stating they had been threatened with death if they did.

You call that a "fair trial"? Sorry, but I don't.

i Never said it was a fair trial and i think the whole of thailand knows that, my point is they still got charged and went to court or fled the country.

[Linky]

Quick call for help with poster design for upcoming campaign

17 Jul 2015 Hello everyone. We are about to launch a new campaign to pressure the Thai authorities into releasing Win and Zaw and immediately reopening the investigation on Koh Tao to find and bring the real monsters that committed these horrible crimes to justice. To do this, we need the help of someone with good design skills that can help us with poster design and creation.

If you have any experience or skills with poster design and can help us, it would be very much appreciated. https://www.change.org/p/david-cameron-independently-investigate-the-horrific-murders-of-hannah-witheridge-and-david-miller/u/11424656?tk=2VYDyXv8_a27zaoE1M2ifuKt5ReKRMD8u8ufI1WiS_Q&utm_source=petition_update&utm_medium=email

I know theres no chance of this happening but still it get the publicity rolling on which can only be good news

P.S. Don't think this is aimed at the likes of GB or JTJ

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Newsflash, you dont need to prove innocence. The prosecution needs to prove guilt.

Prosecution at this stage have proved nothing, for dna to be admissable in any real court they must prove chain of custody. They havent done so.

Any real court would not consider dna evidence in such a case.

So at this stage no right minded person could convict these accused. So at this stage, as they have not been convicted, they are 100% innocent. Until proven otherwise.

As one Judge in australia used to tell the jury, 'the accused is bathed in innocence until proven otherwise'.

So yes, they are 100% innocent. Do you have proof they aren't?

If in any country there was truly 100% innocent until provin guilty then nobody would be jailed prior to a conviction.

And regardless of a conviction, an admission in open court or anything else ... lets face it, they will always been innocent in your eyes.

You obviously dont understand criminal trials so I suggest you refrain from posting on things you do not understand.

People are held without bail primarly if they are a flight risk, which is the situation here. It is not to do with guilt. Bail can also be refused if prosecution can show there is a very strong case (obviously not in this case) or the accused could be a danger to society.

In these situations the courts try to expedite the hearings so the accused does not spend long periods in custody as they may not be found guilty. In the west those being held on bail do not usually go into general prison population.

Now why would you think I would consider someone innocent if they are found guilty. In normal courts, not in Thailand obviously, beyond reasonable doubt is a high benchmark. It is that way because it is considered more acceptable that 10 guilty go free rather than one innocent be convicted.

So until these 2 are convicted in a fair and transparent trial they are indeed innocent.

DNA is a huge issue in this trial. If prosecution cannot prove chain of custody on this DNA then that evidence should not be considered. That leaves circumstantial evidence. The accused can be convicted with such evidence but there would need to be a lot of it and it better be good.

But with the way the police have handled it so far any reasonable judge would just wait until the prosecution finished presenting its case then toss it in the rubbish where it belongs as they have proved they have no credibility.

[JohnThailandJohn]

Your possible concern would have more plausibility if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

But thats the whole point, how do you know that the B2's DNA was found at the scene when the original is no longer available for inspection? All there is are reports. Its deflection to say it takes a huge conspiracy to switch labels or make mistakes in the original testing of the DNA at the RTP forensics in Bangkok. Without re testing this is only an RTP claim backed up with nothing other than a report.

Explained above ... The DNA was tested and the DNA Markers gathered and filed early on from the crime scene. This is what was used to compare with DNA gathered from all the suspects they tested (they took hundreds of samples before matching these two). You don't compare actual DNA to DNA but the DNA results. The DNA results from the DNA gathered from the scene has been in the hands of countless people including those involved in the testing since early on, well before these two were known or suspected. As I stated, it would take a vast conspiracy to remove all traces of those original DNA findings and have them replaced with other findings.

It would be a completely different story if they had these two in custody or even as suspects at the time of the collection of the DNA from the crime scene. This not only would make the set-up theory more plausible but also could be used to provide doubt in contamination if the crime scene dna and the suspects dna were tested or handled at the same time.

Changing a DNA marker is easy even if it was gathered the way you say, which there is absolutely no proof of only your hearsay. Making a mistake gathering the DNA is also possible. But its ok, I see you'll never let this go until the dying end.

Now you are either going out of your way to be obtuse or you simply have no idea about the very basics of DNA.

Edited July 18, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[thailandchilli]

Explained above ... The DNA was tested and the DNA Markers gathered and filed early on from the crime scene. This is what was used to compare with DNA gathered from all the suspects they tested (they took hundreds of samples before matching these two). You don't compare actual DNA to DNA but the DNA results. The DNA results from the DNA gathered from the scene has been in the hands of countless people including those involved in the testing since early on, well before these two were known or suspected. As I stated, it would take a vast conspiracy to remove all traces of those original DNA findings and have them replaced with other findings.

It would be a completely different story if they had these two in custody or even as suspects at the time of the collection of the DNA from the crime scene. This not only would make the set-up theory more plausible but also could be used to provide doubt in contamination if the crime scene dna and the suspects dna were tested or handled at the same time.

Changing a DNA marker is easy even if it was gathered the way you say, which there is absolutely no proof of only your hearsay. Making a mistake gathering the DNA is also possible. But its ok, I see you'll never let this go until the dying end.

Now you are either going out of your way to be obtuse or you simply have no idea about very basic things.

Neither I'm going out of my way to refrain from discussing anything further with you that is obvious to all and yet you deny

[grumpyoldman]

I wish that Sean guy would man up and write to somebody in authority what he knows.

I wish that the stingray spine ring guy who has some history with blonde foreign women and I think someone mentioned a previous rape accusation would be looked into much closer including proving his whereabouts at the time.

I wish the CSI wannabe's here would stop bickering with each other as it becomes extremely tiresome.

I wish those two kids had never gone to Koh Tao.

I hope the Thai authorities come around,find the actual perps and PUT THOSE DOGS DOWN !

[fayou]

reply to Post #2596 JohnThailandJohn @

Laboratory accreditation can provide a standard which can ensure confidence in the results obtained from the examination of evidence. This is why they send the samples to Singapore. The case was botched right from the start when suspects were seen trampling all over the crime scene with police mates. Countless stories were spread about that were nothing but nonsense. They had to seek the services of an ISO Laboratory to ensure the credibility of the results.
The DNA they have most likely been cross contaminated. The DNA evidence itself is 'in doubt'. Inadmissible in real court of law.

Examination of other key evidence that can be retested now is almost certainly meaningless in this case. Now, because DNA is not provided or used up, there is a good chance the 2B will be free soon. If you like it or not.

The link in your post explains the importance of achieving accuracy and confidence in results of DNA. A good read to understand why more laboratories should have ISO.

the majority does not require accreditation (?)

I would like to remind you; this is a high profile murder case

I'm not trying to mislead anyone. I post only this links for your convenience and understanding. Take it or don't. It is very sad to read your posts here on this forum where you always try to accuse everybody of 'misleading' and you still don't realise how ridiculous you appear. I really wonder what is the real intention always trying to sabotage the finding of the truth here.

Edited July 18, 2015 by fayou

[Tony121]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

The case should be dropped because the RTP do not have the DNA samples to substantiate/verify/validate their assertions. And without samples there is no provable chain of custody. Therefore, legally, there is no provable evidence to convict the B2 (based on DNA).

Whether they are guilty or innocent, is neither here nor there. At the moment they are innocent because they haven't been convicted.

Whether the court would accept a RTP written report only, is another matter - and no doubt the media (social and press) would have a field day if it was.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

Next please

[StealthEnergiser]

A bit of info from different sources on the hoe most people would of seen by now ,

I find it interesting that Mon and a policeman told the cleaner to put gloves on and put the hoe back on the crime, scene personally i think some one may have asked him to give it a good clean first.

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said.

“A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

The defence team previously requested the DNA sample to be re-examined by Thailand’s top forensic expert, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder

Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood.

“The garden hoe yielded no DNA traces and no fingerprints, according to police,” said the defendants’ lawyer, Nakhon Chompuchat. “But we think there should be something left.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626&typecate=06&section=

Another online source

They also asked why officers took many hours to seal off the crime scene.

Chasit Yoohat, 51, a private doctor from Koh Tao Clinic who was called to the scene, and Montriwat Tuwichean, 46, who owns a bungalow and restaurant named In Touch, who called police, also testified Wednesday.

Court orders retesting of evidence in Koh Tao murder case

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.c...L.z6wn9MP5.dpuf

Crime scene blunder stopped murder weapon DNA test

Another Burmese migrant worker, known as O, who worked at a local resort, told the second day of the murder trial, which is being held on the nearby island of Koh Samui, that he was first to stumble across the bodies. He said he owned the heavy hoe that police say was used to kill the Britons, and had taken it away from the scene.

“I saw my hoe [near the slain holidaymakers] and took it back to my vegetable garden,” he told the court.

The defence questioned how he had failed to notice blood on the hoe but he said it had been too dark.

Police eventually found the tool hidden by rubbish bags in the garden of the resort where he worked.

http://www.thetimes....icle4493211.ece

[thailandchilli]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

The case should be dropped because the RTP do not have the DNA samples to substantiate/verify/validate their assertions. And without samples there is no provable chain of custody. Therefore, legally, there is no provable evidence to convict the B2 (based on DNA).

Whether they are guilty or innocent, is neither here nor there. At the moment they are innocent because they haven't been convicted.

Whether the court would accept a RTP written report only, is another matter - and no doubt the media (social and press) would have a field day if it was.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

Next please

From your link above

some DNA samples may have been used up in accordance with the examination process. We still have specific DNA samples from the hoe. http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

All that is left to test is the Hoe, that has already been revealed in court as having been wiped of blood, a shoe and some bags

There are a dozen or more links to confirm the above

Next please

[stephenterry]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

The case should be dropped because the RTP do not have the DNA samples to substantiate/verify/validate their assertions. And without samples there is no provable chain of custody. Therefore, legally, there is no provable evidence to convict the B2 (based on DNA).

Whether they are guilty or innocent, is neither here nor there. At the moment they are innocent because they haven't been convicted.

Whether the court would accept a RTP written report only, is another matter - and no doubt the media (social and press) would have a field day if it was.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

Next please

The only evidence available for the re-examination approved by the Koh Samui court on Friday are the sharp garden hoe allegedly used in the murder, a shoe, sock, and bags from the scene.

Any other DNA samples is either used up, lost or being withheld from the defence's scrutiny.

Next please.

[catsanddogs]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

The real conspiracy is the RTP's story and their puppeteers. Hopefully the victim's families will have a flavour of this by now. It is totally possible that Hannah Witheridge was not raped and there was no 'rapists' semen found.

[JohnThailandJohn]

IF the person doing this Campaign knows 100 % sure they are innocent shouldn't he pass the evidence to the defense rather than launching a poster campaign ?

Newsflash, you dont need to prove innocence. The prosecution needs to prove guilt.

Prosecution at this stage have proved nothing, for dna to be admissable in any real court they must prove chain of custody. They havent done so.

Any real court would not consider dna evidence in such a case.

So at this stage no right minded person could convict these accused. So at this stage, as they have not been convicted, they are 100% innocent. Until proven otherwise.

As one Judge in australia used to tell the jury, 'the accused is bathed in innocence until proven otherwise'.

So yes, they are 100% innocent. Do you have proof they aren't?

If in any country there was truly 100% innocent until provin guilty then nobody would be jailed prior to a conviction.

And regardless of a conviction, an admission in open court or anything else ... lets face it, they will always been innocent in your eyes.

You obviously dont understand criminal trials so I suggest you refrain from posting on things you do not understand.

People are held without bail primarly if they are a flight risk, which is the situation here. It is not to do with guilt. Bail can also be refused if prosecution can show there is a very strong case (obviously not in this case) or the accused could be a danger to society.

In these situations the courts try to expedite the hearings so the accused does not spend long periods in custody as they may not be found guilty. In the west those being held on bail do not usually go into general prison population.

Now why would you think I would consider someone innocent if they are found guilty. In normal courts, not in Thailand obviously, beyond reasonable doubt is a high benchmark. It is that way because it is considered more acceptable that 10 guilty go free rather than one innocent be convicted.

The presumption of innocence principle supports the practice of releasing criminal defendants from jail prior to trial. However, the government may detain some criminal defendants without bail through the end of trial. The Eighth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution states that excessive bail shall not be required, but it is widely accepted that governments have the right to detain through trial a defendant of a serious crime who is a flight risk or poses a danger to the public. In such cases the presumption of innocence is largely theoretical.

Aside from the related requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the presumption of innocence is largely symbolic. The reality is that no defendant would face trial unless somebody—the crime victim, the prosecutor, a police officer—believed that the defendant was guilty of a crime. After the government has presented enough evidence to constitute Probable Cause to believe that the defendant has committed a crime, the accused need not be treated as if he or she was innocent of a crime, and the defendant may be jailed with the approval of the court.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Innocent+until+proven+guilty

The simple language of the term "Innocent until Proven Guilty" should be considered as proof people are not considered 100% innocent if they were then the term would be "Innocent Unless Proven Guilty" more so, at least in the US, a defendant cannot be held over for trial unless a judge believes their is probably cause to believe the defendant committed the crime which in itself is a presumption of guilt (not 100% innocent). In some cases a grand jury will convene to determine probably cause and in this case a defendant doesn't even have the right to question evidence or have their lawyer present and these hearings are held in secret from the public.

I don't usually get into sharing my personal history or background unnecessarily on forums but let me just say that it is ridiculous to suggest I don't know about criminal procedures or the law (at least in the US) and I will further say that in the vast majority of criminal cases I am pro defense even if I believe the defense is guilty. I think the justice system is highly screwed up in the US and therefore you can imagine what I think about the Thai system. I don't believe in the death penalty or even life sentences except in extreme cases where there is absolutely no hope of a criminal not being a danger to society. So despite the fact I am confident in these two being responsible for these crimes, I feel bad for them and neither want to see there life over or any possibility to become good members of society if found guilty. The fact is that I just have seen nothing that plausible would account for the evidence which has been reported against them just as I am 100% against any kind of abuse to get a confession, I also know it doesn't mean a confession brought on by pressure isn't true but rather just less credible and in this case the embassy team and lawyers that visited them, outside of police presence, stated they also admitted the crime to all of them while explaining they were also abused. Despite if they did it or not, if the prosecution can't make their case then they should be released and I believe this strongly. But I also believe they did it and am still predicting they will plead guilty as they see the evidence against them ... even their lawyer recently stated this may be an option.

Edited July 18, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[thailandchilli]

Possibly where the RTP filled up their trolley full of evidence

Edited July 18, 2015 by thailandchilli

[Tony121]

A bit of info from different sources on the hoe most people would of seen by now ,

I find it interesting that Mon and a policeman told the cleaner to put gloves on and put the hoe back on the crime, scene personally i think some one may have asked him to give it a good clean first.

Police tried to manipulate Koh Tao witness, court told

U Oh confirmed he was the owner of the garden hoe, which is alleged to have been used as the murder weapon in the case,” Aung Myo Thant said.

“A police officer had earlier testified that the hoe was used to murder the victims, then the blood-stained tool was placed under a bag and discarded on the beach.”

But U Oh testified that the hoe was in the same place he left it the night before, the lawyer said.

“Also, police cajoled him to say he washed off the blood from the hoe. However, that is not what he told the judge. He said that he had not paid any attention to the hoe and was not aware of whether there was any blood on it or not.”

The defence team previously requested the DNA sample to be re-examined by Thailand’s top forensic expert, Dr Pornthip Rojanasunand.

https://www.dvb.no/news/police-tried-to-manipulate-koh-tao-witness-court-told/54664

Lack of Evidence, Local Media Coverage Adds to Mystery of Koh Tao Murder

Last week, a partially blind Burmese beach cleaner told the court he spotted the garden hoe at the scene before police arrived, and returned the tool to its normal spot nearby. Upon police's request, he later retrieved the hoe, which he said he was unaware was covered in blood.

“The garden hoe yielded no DNA traces and no fingerprints, according to police,” said the defendants’ lawyer, Nakhon Chompuchat. “But we think there should be something left.”

http://www.khaosodenglish.com/detail.php?newsid=1436774626&typecate=06&section=

Another online source

They also asked why officers took many hours to seal off the crime scene.

Chasit Yoohat, 51, a private doctor from Koh Tao Clinic who was called to the scene, and Montriwat Tuwichean, 46, who owns a bungalow and restaurant named In Touch, who called police, also testified Wednesday.

Court orders retesting of evidence in Koh Tao murder case

Police believe a garden hoe which came from the resort and was found leaning against a tree near the crime scene, was used to bludgeon both victims.

After arriving at the crime scene around 5.40am O admitted removing the hoe from next to the tree and taking it back to a vegetable garden inside the resort where he worked.

Around half an hour later he said he was approached by the resort’s boss and a policeman who told him to put on a pair of gloves and return it to the scene, which he did.

- See more at: http://www.mizzima.c...L.z6wn9MP5.dpuf

Crime scene blunder stopped murder weapon DNA test

Another Burmese migrant worker, known as O, who worked at a local resort, told the second day of the murder trial, which is being held on the nearby island of Koh Samui, that he was first to stumble across the bodies. He said he owned the heavy hoe that police say was used to kill the Britons, and had taken it away from the scene.

“I saw my hoe [near the slain holidaymakers] and took it back to my vegetable garden,” he told the court.

The defence questioned how he had failed to notice blood on the hoe but he said it had been too dark.

Police eventually found the tool hidden by rubbish bags in the garden of the resort where he worked.

http://www.thetimes....icle4493211.ece

So the gardener moved the hoe most probably putting his dna on it in the process, the perfect scapegoat ? also the big one is the Dna on the victims, when all the evidence from the Dna is shown and it is found to be no good then I agree that the case should be dropped.

[Rykbanlor]

JTJ, you still didn't just give a simple yes or no answer to my original post.

Regardless of what you think the Police motivation might have been for doing it, all i asked was for a simple admission that a crime scene can be manipulated, evidence can be planted, samples can be mixed up.

Is this the case, yes or no? There are many documented examples.

Though I didn't see your original request, as you know it is a ridiculous question which you know the answer and can only be asked to suck me into a game ... just as I would know the true answer if I asked you if it is possible these two murdered and raped one tourist and murdered another. Anything is possible but I try to stay with what is plausible vs. theories that are highly implausible as well as those that defy logic as a means to get an answer you want.

I'm not playing you. I still admit that maybe the B2 did it. I don't think they did, but I don't know they didn't.

I agree that anything is possible.

Damn, here I was on page 99 saying we should call it quits before we reached 100. It's like crack cocaine this thread.

OK, I am gonna try and abstain until the end of court on Wednesday, as I am not that invested in it that I have to go and research a bunch of stuff to check the veracity of what you are saying,

[catsanddogs]

Possibly where the RTP filled up their trolley full of evidence

And here is the evidence your Lordship.

[BoristheBlade]

Far too much talk about DNA.

Where is the motive?

Where is the intent?

Where is the evidence (DNA apart)?

None.......hence no case.

Case dismissed!

[stephenterry]

Re JTJ : I don't usually get into sharing my personal history or background unnecessarily on forums but let me just say that it is ridiculous to suggest I don't know about criminal procedures or the law (at least in the US) and I will further say that in the vast majority of criminal cases I am pro defense even if I believe the defense is guilty. I think the justice system is highly screwed up in the US and therefore you can imagine what I think about the Thai system. I don't believe in the death penalty or even life sentences except in extreme cases where there is absolutely no hope of a criminal not being a danger to society. So despite the fact I am confident in these two being responsible for these crimes, I feel bad for them and neither want to see there life over or any possibility to become good members of society if found guilty. The fact is that I just have seen nothing that plausible would account for the evidence which has been reported against them just as I am 100% against any kind of abuse to get a confession, I also know it doesn't mean a confession brought on by pressure isn't true but rather just less credible and in this case the embassy team and lawyers that visited them, outside of police presence, stated they also admitted the crime to all of them while explaining they were also abused. Despite if they did it or not, if the prosecution can't make their case then they should be released and I believe this strongly. But I also believe they did it and am still predicting they will plead guilty as they see the evidence against them ... even their lawyer recently stated this may be an option.

Probably the most open-minded post you've made (if genuine), but still based on only RTP's assertions. I would suggest you hear evidence from the defence that contests the RTP's case before reaching your conclusion that the B2 are guilty.

And it is purely speculation to predict that they would change their plea, because as yet, there is no evidence (that has been substantiated/verified/validated) against them.

[Basil B]

I would like to suggest before anyone else goes on about the DNA samples they google "dna sample testing".

Some points:

Unless the samples are taken by experienced people samples can easily be contaminated.

Comparing sperm dna taken from inside the victim with saliva (e.g.) dna is more complicated than say saliva with saliva.

Samples with mixed sperm from 2 or more men taken from inside the victim are very difficult to confirm and are open to errors.

Conformation of the dna results should be confirmed by 2 independent (of each other) laboratories.

No wonder the defence wanted independent testing.

Also those collecting sample from suspects should be independent of those collecting samples from the crime scene...

[phuketandsee]

A lot of posters who want truth and justice, are assuming that the Thai court will resemble the standards of a Farangland court. In Farangland, besides the premise of 'innocent until proven guilty' there's also the assumption that legal authorities are objective. This is Thailand. The rules are different here. Social stratification is well defined and is a factor in everything. The RTP have a clear agenda in this case - which they and their top brass buddies (yea, the guys who control the most guns) have made clear - the direction they want to the trial to go. It's inconvenient for top brass to see their case crumbling like a sand castle built on a high bluff, but they'll probably get the desired result.

Note: the top brass would like to see the B2 found guilty, but that's not as high a priority (for them) as making sure the Headman's people stay shielded.

Yes a headman who was picking coconuts and living in a bamboo hut 35 years ago before the tourists came,

A headman who runs a small rock in the sea with a population of 3,000 mostly burmese,

He even has more power than the red bull family as the police charged him and he is on the run, The Headman must be even more powerful than Chalerm Because even his son was charged and stood trial.

I bet you most of the "top brass" didn't even know where koh tao is before the murders

You are obviously new to this case. The source of the headman's power has been explained in several posts on this and other threads. I suggest you do some more research.

[Basil B]

Also what the TV armature sleuths who seem to want to pin this on the Scottish guy seem to have overlooked unless David and Hannah were both lying on the ground this murder was probably committed by two or more persons.

[Rykbanlor]

I don't usually get into sharing my personal history or background unnecessarily on forums but let me just say that it is ridiculous to suggest I don't know about criminal procedures or the law (at least in the US) and I will further say that in the vast majority of criminal cases I am pro defense even if I believe the defense is guilty. I think the justice system is highly screwed up in the US and therefore you can imagine what I think about the Thai system. I don't believe in the death penalty or even life sentences except in extreme cases where there is absolutely no hope of a criminal not being a danger to society. So despite the fact I am confident in these two being responsible for these crimes, I feel bad for them and neither want to see there life over or any possibility to become good members of society if found guilty. The fact is that I just have seen nothing that plausible would account for the evidence which has been reported against them just as I am 100% against any kind of abuse to get a confession, I also know it doesn't mean a confession brought on by pressure isn't true but rather just less credible and in this case the embassy team and lawyers that visited them, outside of police presence, stated they also admitted the crime to all of them while explaining they were also abused. Despite if they did it or not, if the prosecution can't make their case then they should be released and I believe this strongly. But I also believe they did it and am still predicting they will plead guilty as they see the evidence against them ... even their lawyer recently stated this may be an option.

I respect your opinion, and while I still have my own opinion, I will be the first to apologize if the prosecution do indeed make an overwhelming case against the defendants using tangible and verifiable evidence rather than just Police reports. The first few days in court have not yet done this for me, but lets see what the next days in court bring forth as it's highly likely there will be information that none of us are aware of.

[BoristheBlade]

Also what the TV armature sleuths who seem to want to pin this on the Scottish guy seem to have overlooked unless David and Hannah were both lying on the ground this murder was probably committed by two or more persons.

After seeing a very gruesome crime picture of the female victim, I can say with almost total certainty, her body was "posed" by the culprits.

Someone or somebody wanted to make it appear the two victims were for a better word....intimate.

The crime scene was totally rearranged to cover up the truth and any decent crime scene officer would have seen through it in seconds,

[stephenterry]

Oh and if you want the case dropped like in the campaign you will have to prove there innocence because they are currently still standing trial.

The case should be dropped because the RTP do not have the DNA samples to substantiate/verify/validate their assertions. And without samples there is no provable chain of custody. Therefore, legally, there is no provable evidence to convict the B2 (based on DNA).

Whether they are guilty or innocent, is neither here nor there. At the moment they are innocent because they haven't been convicted.

Whether the court would accept a RTP written report only, is another matter - and no doubt the media (social and press) would have a field day if it was.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Forensic-evidence-not-lost-police-chief-30264238.html

Next please

The only evidence available for the re-examination approved by the Koh Samui court on Friday are the sharp garden hoe allegedly used in the murder, a shoe, sock, and bags from the scene.

Any other DNA samples is either used up, lost or being withheld from the defence's scrutiny.

Next please.

The Nation's report, presumably a transcript of what the police guy said, just proves to what lengths the police would go to misinform, misdirect, and deflect the general public and some newbies on here. Clearly the RTP had no intention whatsoever of ever permitting the defence to scrutinise key DNA samples.

Why?

Because the 'evidence' won't stack up. If it had done, the samples would have been made available. Bottom line.

BTW, how is it possible to 'lose' or 'use up' a human hair found in the female victim's hand with any proper chain of custody in place? S/B the defence's first question when the court reassembles.

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

[eliotness]

Was the DNA sample that matched the B2s a sample of mixed sperm found inside or outside the victim ?

If so was that sample taken at the crime scene or later during the post mortem ?

If the samples were taken at the scene did the person taking the samples have the necessary equipment and training ?

Even if the samples were taken at the scene then further samples should have been obtained at the post mortem and if that was the case then it means 2 sets of samples have "gone missing". I've not heard it mentioned that there were 2 sets of samples from the body, which makes me believe only one test was performed, but which of the 2 ? It is absolutely unimaginable that all the sample from a post mortem examination would be used up as it would be a substantial amount and should have been fully documented.

The reason I ask these questions is I'm still unclear from all these posts that the DNA everyone is arguing over is actually that obtained from mixed sperm or from some other source.

There were reported to be bite marks on the body. Were these not wiped and tested ?

Also I seen one report stating there was sperm on one of the victims breasts. Was that tested separately and if so, who did it match ?

The blood on the hoe would only show Hannah's and David's DNA, no one else has been reported injured by it, but it might have shown fingerprints of whoever wielded it. Is that why it was "washed" ?

There are just too many questions.

[Gweiloman]

If Mod and Namsod did it why with them having all there connections and being mafia not think to dump the bodies ( sea or up in the jungle ) why did they make no effort to hide the murder weapon ?

Why would Mod just wait then go to the see the crime scene again in the morning with the police I am sure he nows that something like this can't just be brushed under the carpet?

Why would they go after Sean ? how would they even know there was any connection between them ? why let Sean take a photo ? why not plant evidence on Sean or in his room ?

This is a Family that the local expat community spoke highly off before Sean made the accusations. (local expats interviewed by the guardian even said they were known for keeping the island safe.

This is a Family that people on here think have so much power can buy of the chief of police and the general and that can change security footage in a bangkok university but can't hide a 3 foot murder weapon.

Again i am not saying the B2 are guilty I will always believe that Sean holds all the answers, but it still doesnt make sense that a thai rich kid who is set to inherit a fortune goes to university and has most probably never had to pick up a hoe or do any manual work would decide to do it, and on his Dads island.

I don't mean to be picky or insulting but your post is very much like the RTP's case to date - riddled with inaccuracies and careless with the facts (truths).

Firstly, it's Mon and Nomsod, not Mod and Namsod.

Secondly, the security footage is from an apartment, not a university.

Thirdly, no one has ever said that NS actually wielded the hoe or that he was the murderer. Refer to this post of mine back in Oct 2014

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/770056-koh-tao-murder-suspects-tell-rights-commission-they-were-beaten/page-7#entry8563814

As a senior manager, I do not do the so called manual work myself; I delegate it to my subordinates. It's like having a maid at home - you sit down for dinner but are unlikely to wash the dishes, right?

well not to be picky or insulting back but what does spelling there names wrong have anything to do with the point, second footage what its matter where it is from. someone still would of had to put dates stamps on it, my point is why go to all the trouble but leave a crime scene intact.

Thirdly as someone who has lived on Samui for 13 years I Know how the powerful locals and the mafia work. if they had a maid she would clean the dishes, mop the floor and put the rubbish out.

Spelling the names wrongly do not have anything to do with the point other than that it's annoying, careless and shows little attention to detail, which is what the RTP case to date has clearly shown. They are so unused to being challenged that they think their blase and mai bpen rai approach will withstand challenges. Similarly, to say that it's unimportant as to whether the footage came from an university or an apartment once again indicates your carelessness with details. It's like saying that since a person is dead, what does it matter how the person died.

Thirdly, you contradict yourself. Reread your original post

[sambum]

2. Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say

This is absolutely untrue. What is being done is taking selective things stated or attributed to police, especially early on comments that have since been corrected /updated as it was incorrect speculation, and using those (often twisted) to build ridiculous theories while ignoring updates or doing what you have just done and saying police cannot be trusted when it is something that blows a whole in their unfounded and implausible theories.

Same thing happens now as people bury their head in the sand and pretend that all the DNA evidence has been lost despite the fact this has since been clarified as being untrue. Reading through much of these things here is painful but it is also fascinating to see how far people will depart from reality to keep up this game they have created for their own psychological needs. I too get caught up in this as I just can't resist jumping in sometimes to point out the obvious despite the fact I know the chances are slim to none anyone will be awakened back to reality.

The arguments are all circle and illogical ... we want DNA tested outside the police yet later the same person will say police fudged the DNA. Well now that they have had the evidence and the suspects for months, don't you think it logical they could plant their DNA on a cigarette butt or weapon by now? Yet, there is then the pretending all the DNA is lost by the same guys who were able to plant the accused semen in the victim. Just all goes in a big circle but all comes down to being like a little kid screaming with his hands over his ears because he doesn't want to hear the truth. NOTHING is going to change their mind even if the two plead guilty as they will say they pled for other reasons or if the defense tests the DNA and it matches theirs, it will be said police manipulated the evidence before turning it over. Same type of BS about the kid who was in Bangkok. No DNA, Video, Witnesses or anything else will show he is not guilty despite the fact there is NOTHING to indicate he was in anyway involved.

It is just fascinating to see this continue on by some even though months have passed for people to get their emotions in check and come back down to reality.

"Many of us just do not trust anything the RTP say"

"This is absolutely untrue."

You are arrogant beyond words! You STILL do not read posts properly before replying, and refuse to acknowledge your own blatant mistakes. I have been waiting for a few days now for an apology from you where you were proved to be wrong, but I do not even get an acknowledgement!

The above post is quite clear to all except you - who are you to decide whether many of us do not trust anything the RTP says? Apart from you and your 2 or 3 cronies,going by the posts on this thread alone, the overwhelming majority of people on TV are of the opinion that the RTP are not to be trusted. Regardless of whether they are trustworthy or not, you are totally unqualified to make such a sweeping statement as "This is absolutely untrue."

[Gweiloman]

If you ignore the idea that there are strings being pulled from high above and return to basics - manipulating the crime scene.

There are some posters who seem to find this completely implausible, yet the world is awash with cases of planted evidence, mixed up DNA samples and various other unethical practices - google it. It is also noted that it is not difficult to do this. (Coffee cups and cigarette butts are a go to example in many articles, for crude evidence planting, incidentally).

Once more, let it be noted that it was the local cops, that started at the crime scene, plus other locals were tramping across it and, there was no forensic pathologist at the scene collecting the samples, as per protocol.

SO forget all the theories and stories, but what is so hard to understand about this??? I don't want you to say, "Ah ok, now i see, I change my stance",

but a SIMPLE ADMISSION that the manipulation of the crime scene is not so unbelievable or difficult to achieve, especially when the correct personnel were not even there to oversee it. Chain of custody as Thailandchili mentioned earlier.

Again, just a simple acknowledgement that the crime scene could easily have been tampered with and evidence could have been planted, as has happened in other instances, in the US for example. You don't need to change your stance.

Your concern would be more concerning if the two were already suspects when the evidence was gathered at the crime scene but they were not. So it is very implausible to think their semen was planted inside the victim along with other DNA collected from the scene only to have police make fools of themselves for weeks accusing others and making idiotic assumptions prior to catching one of this group leaving the island and questioning them.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

The evidence (DNA) collected at the crime scene would have been run and reports shared with dozens of people on various computers and in various reports. The only way without them planting these two DNA at the scene initially to accomplish a frame up would be to get rid of all these original reports and eliminate all those with access (including all the techs at the labs) from being able to speak out.

Is there some other plausible theory that would get their semen inside the victim? A mismanaged crime scene or improper collection or contamination would not cause their semen to be found in the victim. Only thing I can think of is the police have lied and the prosecutors and labs are part of the lie in stating the it was their DNA / Semen that matched ... again another fairly vast conspiracy would need to take place.

This whole DNA matter is pure misdirection.

If the motive was to not make them (police) look bad or to have Thailand look bad or tourism to the island be hurt then this would make no sense as the results were just the opposite and very controllable by police who could have pinned this on anyone early on if that was their goal or could have arrested these two immediately after if they were framing them from the get go.

There was no intention to framing the B2 from the get go. The police (under Panya) were sincere in bringing the criminals to justice. Thus K. Panya's very clear press release stating that the main suspects were Mon and NS, as indicated by CCTV evidence. Somewhere along the line, these two were cleared by, what is for many, unsatisfactory grounds.

As such, new suspects have to be identified. Thus begins the vetting process of whom would be the most "credible" suspects. The B2 came to the front as they were present close to the crime scene at around the time of the murders. Their physical stature did not make them the most ideal but the police had limited options as these two did not have alibis. The next challenge is then for the RTP to find "facts" to substantiate their charges. The cigarette butt proves beyond questionable doubt that they were on the beach; however, this is a non-issue as the B2 admitted to being there. So all the cigarette butt has done is to "raise" the credibility of the RTP somewhat, meaning, see? this piece of evidence is true so therefore, everything else we (the police) present to you must also be true.

David's wounds were very clearly not made by the hoe. Unfortunately, the police could not find any other weapons owned by the B2 that could inflict the kind of wounds found on David so they had no choice but to stick steadfastly to their claim. Acknowledging that the wounds were made by a different weapon would open up a whole can of worms as close associates of the initial suspects possess such weapons (and this was already a no no as explained earlier).

At this stage, there is still very little available to the police for them to mount a "strong" case. The condom does not help their case as there is no CCTV evidence of the B2 purchasing a condom. Furthermore, as this is supposed to be a spur of the moment attack and not pre-meditated, it would be extremely unbelievable to say the the B2 happened to have a condom in their possession. I have a theory about the condom which I will make in a separate post. For now, if the police do not present the condom as evidence, then I believe that my theory holds water.

To try and further strengthen the case, the police produced the mobile phone of one of the victims supposedly found near the residence of the B2.

So now what? There is basically still insufficient evidence to continue. If I'm not mistaken, by this time, Hannah's body has been sent back to the UK so it's impossible to plant any of the B2's DNA on the body. It could be that they took a desperate gamble, to obtain the DNA of the real criminals and merely labelled this as DNA from the B2 and sent it to Bkk for testing. Voila, we have a DNA match! I think that they did not imagine for one second that they would be challenged. But challenged there were and they are now in a very deep hole. In order to extricate themselves, they have to make sure that the samples cannot be independently retested. This could be the motivation behind losing / using up all available DNA as it would then not be possible to compare the real DNA of the B2 against the samples. Does anyone know if it would be possible to compare the DNA of the B2 against a DNA report?

Basically, this is the sum total of the evidence (as we know it - I don't see any significance of the shoe or sock at this point in time). Let's see what else will be revealed in court.

[Tony121]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth