Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

Since you likes stories so much let me tell you one to.

A Mom comes home and finds her son with his hand in the cookie jar, where she just told him he can't have anymore cookies. She asked him if he is stealing a cookie and he says yes. She tells her son that the punishment for disobeying is he has to go to his room for 15 minutes, then possibly decide on more. But only a few minutes later he cries to his mom he is lonely and afraid. She tells him he still has 10 minutes left.

But he still comes out and says to his mom he has something to tell her. That he wasn't taking a cookie. He said the cookie jumped out of the jar and fell on the table. That being a good boy who doesn't lie, he picked up the cookie, before Rex their Dog ate it, and was putting it back in the Jar when he got caught. Then he says that if you don't believe me just ask Rex, as he saw the whole thing.

No, not at your story but at you.

You see, the difference is that boomerangutan's story is plausible - two naughty boys wrestling with a pig.

But in your story, you try to relay a "fact" that is absolutely unbelievable (cookie jumping out of the jar by itself). Much like the RTP's story, sad to say.

Why is my story not plausible?

You first have to imagine that the Little Boy might represent someone now arrested for a crime, like the 2 accused.

The Little Boy (accused) commits a crime he knows he is not supposed to.

When he gets caught and when his mom is angry he admits to Thai Visa membershe crime.

But after been locked up for a little while the Little Boy comes out with a completely and totally different unbelievable story as to why he did not do this. That his only witness is too afraid to come forward or speak, even under his mom's protection, like his Dog Rex.

Sounds very plausible to me.

So lets agree to disagree.

Now boys makeup and be good Thai Visa Forum members

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

can anybody identify this person

noms.jpg

Uh... Long Dong Silvers?

[stephenterry]

That's like the harried housewife, when her two little boys come running in the house. One is unsoiled but one is covered in mud. Both boys are yelling at their mom,

Paul says; "Sam wrestled with the pig!"

Sam, covered in mud says, "No, it wasn't me, it was Paul who wrestled with the pig!"

Mom throws up her hands and says, "Oh you boys, I'm at the end of my tether. I don't know who's telling the truth."

Since you likes stories so much let me tell you one to.

A Mom comes home and finds her son with his hand in the cookie jar, where she just told him he can't have anymore cookies. She asked him if he is stealing a cookie and he says yes. She tells her son that the punishment for disobeying is he has to go to his room for 15 minutes, then possibly decide on more. But only a few minutes later he cries to his mom he is lonely and afraid. She tells him he still has 10 minutes left.

But he still comes out and says to his mom he has something to tell her. That he wasn't taking a cookie. He said the cookie jumped out of the jar and fell on the table. That being a good boy who doesn't lie, he picked up the cookie, before Rex their Dog ate it, and was putting it back in the Jar when he got caught. Then he says that if you don't believe me just ask Rex, as he saw the whole thing.

No, not at your story but at you.

You see, the difference is that boomerangutan's story is plausible - two naughty boys wrestling with a pig.

But in your story, you try to relay a "fact" that is absolutely unbelievable (cookie jumping out of the jar by itself). Much like the RTP's story, sad to say.

Why is my story not plausible?

You first have to imagine that the Little Boy might represent someone now arrested for a crime, like the 2 accused.

The Little Boy (accused) commits a crime he knows he is not supposed to.

When he gets caught and when his mom is angry he admits to Thai Visa membershe crime.

But after been locked up for a little while the Little Boy comes out with a completely and totally different unbelievable story as to why he did not do this. That his only witness is too afraid to come forward or speak, even under his mom's protection, like his Dog Rex.

Sounds very plausible to me.

So lets agree to disagree.

Now boys makeup and be good Thai Visa Forum members

I imagined that the little boy was the RTP. Now it is more plausible.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

All these responses to GB's nonsense posts are an energy drain. It reminds me of a self-help weekend seminar I went to in California years ago. Everyone was cool, except one woman who brought a shitload of domestic problems. Guess where all the focus went? Yup, the moderator chose to take most of the seminar time and most of our energy to focus on just the one messed-up woman.

Here's another true story: When a lot younger, I was a counselor at summer camp, in charge of a roomful of 10 to 12 yr old boys. Each evening, I would gather then all in a circle on the floor to either read a story, have a discussion or do a simple craft project. There was one boy who was disruptive. He had 20 bottles of different herbal pills from home for his problem, but they didn't do any good. The pattern of his disruptiveness continued every evening, so I spoke with the head man and had the boy sent home early. Even while I was driving him to the train station, he innocently asked me why he was being sent home. He honestly didn't know.

....a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend?

'already has a g.f.' uh huh. Right.

Here's another true story. I was with a small group of guys, camped out. The head of the group, a big Native American guy, was talking about driving a hippie tour bus. He said, in every group he took on the 5-day tours, there was always a woman who wanted to hop in bed with him. One guy in our group piped up, "oh that could never happen to me - if I was the bus driver."

The big Indian said, "Huh, why not?"

The small guy said, "because I have a girlfriend. I would always stay true to her. "

There was a pregnant silence

Then the Indian said in a big voice, "buddy, you are so full of shit."

We all cracked up.

What's a hippie?

[stephenterry]

All these responses to GB's nonsense posts are an energy drain. It reminds me of a self-help weekend seminar I went to in California years ago. Everyone was cool, except one woman who brought a shitload of domestic problems. Guess where all the focus went? Yup, the moderator chose to take most of the seminar time and most of our energy to focus on just the one messed-up woman.

Here's another true story: When a lot younger, I was a counselor at summer camp, in charge of a roomful of 10 to 12 yr old boys. Each evening, I would gather then all in a circle on the floor to either read a story, have a discussion or do a simple craft project. There was one boy who was disruptive. He had 20 bottles of different herbal pills from home for his problem, but they didn't do any good. The pattern of his disruptiveness continued every evening, so I spoke with the head man and had the boy sent home early. Even while I was driving him to the train station, he innocently asked me why he was being sent home. He honestly didn't know.

....a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend?

'already has a g.f.' uh huh. Right.

Here's another true story. I was with a small group of guys, camped out. The head of the group, a big Native American guy, was talking about driving a hippie tour bus. He said, in every group he took on the 5-day tours, there was always a woman who wanted to hop in bed with him. One guy in our group piped up, "oh that could never happen to me - if I was the bus driver."

The big Indian said, "Huh, why not?"

The small guy said, "because I have a girlfriend. I would always stay true to her. "

There was a pregnant silence

Then the Indian said in a big voice, "buddy, you are so full of shit."

We all cracked up.

What's a hippie?

(especially in the 1960s) a person of unconventional appearance, typically having long hair and wearing beads, associated with a subculture involving a rejection of conventional values and the taking of hallucinogenic drugs.

synonyms: flower child, Bohemian, beatnik, long-hair, free spirit, nonconformist,dropout

[thailandchilli]

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

I didn't realize it was a toss up between "a Rich Kid who is in university" and the B2? There are a host of other possible perpetrators of this crime.

As for the horny migrant workers who haven't had sex for possibly years......wild speculation! The Burmese that work in the bars and restaurants in KT get just as much chance to get laid as the Thai's. Infact those who work as DJ's and fire show artists get more than there fair share according to their personal facebook pages.

Yeah, I tend to agree that there are plenty of available girls (some who qualify for the two brown paper bag award) high on atmosphere, drink and drugs who would go with any presentable male, Farang or Asian. Hedonism is part of having a wild time on holiday, isn't it? Aka Magaluf. The pub crawl photos of Kao Tao revellers provide plenty of evidence of that behaviour.

Similarly, there are girls and males who enjoy the atmosphere, but do not participate in any really wild activities. Maybe Hannah was picked out because she was pretty and a challenge? I have read (posted by an ex-Koh Tao resident) that NS was not the clean looking innocent, but a violent person who carried a knife, and pretty much feared.

Again, this post is speculation, and just an opinion that could be well off the mark, but I reckon it's more plausible than GB's assertions.

This is another plausible explanation and could very well be somewhere near the truth:

I was told by a Thai lady with connections to this island that a local guy did this. I was told the following, i have no idea if this is true but she told me her ex boyfriend is a police man on Koh Tao. The story is that Hannah was partying the night before with a local Thai Guy (maybe some intimacy), the following day he saw her and she blanked him. later than night he got his revenge by attacking her, David Miller heard her being attached and came to her rescue but ended up getting killed as well. Apparently its well known on the Island who was responsible but its a big cover up https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=455434457964491&id=340091729498765

[boomerangutang]

You keep bringing this up (changing the name of a computer file) as it is the easiest thing in the world to do. Well,, it isn't! Get over it!

You're right, GB. It's not the easiest way to skew the DNA trail. The easiest way is for the head cop to simply say, "Nomsod's DNA doesn't match" and "The Burmeses' DNA match"

Who's going to to challenge that? You? Me? A reporter for a Thai newspaper? A corporal in the RTP? a lab techie?

The defense is trying to challenge it, and look at where things are at re; the trial.

Doing this also is not equal to a kid stealing a Chocolate Bar in a Candy Shop! This has serious consequences, including criminal charges with a mandatory jail sentences and loss of job for life. The penalty in Thailand now for high ranking officials accepting bribes and corruption, and offering a bribe for corruption is the "Death Penalty". So you would have to be a totally and complete fool to do this in the Lab, if you could which you can't, let alone do it for a few baht under the table.

History is rife with authoritative people saying/doing things that they later regret.

[stephenterry]

Yeah, I tend to agree that there are plenty of available girls (some who qualify for the two brown paper bag award) high on atmosphere, drink and drugs who would go with any presentable male, Farang or Asian. Hedonism is part of having a wild time on holiday, isn't it? Aka Magaluf. The pub crawl photos of Kao Tao revellers provide plenty of evidence of that behaviour.

Similarly, there are girls and males who enjoy the atmosphere, but do not participate in any really wild activities. Maybe Hannah was picked out because she was pretty and a challenge? I have read (posted by an ex-Koh Tao resident) that NS was not the clean looking innocent, but a violent person who carried a knife, and pretty much feared.

Again, this post is speculation, and just an opinion that could be well off the mark, but I reckon it's more plausible than GB's assertions.

This is another plausible explanation and could very well be somewhere near the truth:

I was told by a Thai lady with connections to this island that a local guy did this. I was told the following, i have no idea if this is true but she told me her ex boyfriend is a police man on Koh Tao. The story is that Hannah was partying the night before with a local Thai Guy (maybe some intimacy), the following day he saw her and she blanked him. later than night he got his revenge by attacking her, David Miller heard her being attached and came to her rescue but ended up getting killed as well. Apparently its well known on the Island who was responsible but its a big cover up https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=455434457964491&id=340091729498765

I think it is plausible. My only concern is that nobody names names (probably for self-protection reasons) but nevertheless no help to the defence.

[boomerangutang]

What's a hippie?

(especially in the 1960s) a person of unconventional appearance, typically having long hair and wearing beads, associated with a subculture involving a rejection of conventional values and the taking of hallucinogenic drugs.

synonyms: flower child, Bohemian, beatnik, long-hair, free spirit, nonconformist,dropout

Except for the beads, that's me.

[IslandLover]

Also, this is rarely ever mentioned - the B2 were both workers at AC BAR, Mon's bar. That's an interesting detail.

Much has already been made about the relationship dynamic between illegal/migrant workers and their Thai bosses.

Not according to the defence team. Wai Phyo worked at the Safety Stop restaurant and Zaw Lin worked at the Brother bar. Maung Maung (the third Burmese) was an employee of Mon's as he worked at the AC2 bar.

[Rykbanlor]

What's a hippie?

(especially in the 1960s) a person of unconventional appearance, typically having long hair and wearing beads, associated with a subculture involving a rejection of conventional values and the taking of hallucinogenic drugs.

synonyms: flower child, Bohemian, beatnik, long-hair, free spirit, nonconformist,dropout

Except for the beads, that's me.

There a filthy longhair in our midst!!, Quick get him!!

[thailandchilli]

Also, this is rarely ever mentioned - the B2 were both workers at AC BAR, Mon's bar. That's an interesting detail.

Much has already been made about the relationship dynamic between illegal/migrant workers and their Thai bosses.

Not according to the defence team. Wai Phyo worked at the Safety Stop restaurant and Zaw Lin worked at the Brother bar. Maung Maung (the third Burmese) was an employee of Mon's as he worked at the AC2 bar.

[Rykbanlor]

Also, this is rarely ever mentioned - the B2 were both workers at AC BAR, Mon's bar. That's an interesting detail.

Much has already been made about the relationship dynamic between illegal/migrant workers and their Thai bosses.

Not according to the defence team. Wai Phyo worked at the Safety Stop restaurant and Zaw Lin worked at the Brother bar. Maung Maung (the third Burmese) was an employee of Mon's as he worked at the AC2 bar.

I must be mistaken then. I know I saw a picture of the 2 defendants both wearing AC bar (or AC 2) t-shirts, and I thought it had been mentioned in a media report though I was perhaps joining mental dots.

[stephenterry]

You keep bringing this up (changing the name of a computer file) as it is the easiest thing in the world to do. Well,, it isn't! Get over it!

You're right, GB. It's not the easiest way to skew the DNA trail. The easiest way is for the head cop to simply say, "Nomsod's DNA doesn't match" and "The Burmeses' DNA match"

Who's going to to challenge that? You? Me? A reporter for a Thai newspaper? A corporal in the RTP? a lab techie?

The defense is trying to challenge it, and look at where things are at re; the trial.

'snip'

Exactly, BOOM. That's where we're at right now. The RTP asserting the DNA evidence is proof, but neither they or the defence can substantiate/verify/validate it (despite protestations by the head cop that it is all available).

I'm sure the integrity of the court will be put in the spotlight when the trial recommences (whatever good that would do if the judge agrees to accept the RTP's assertions).

[thailandchilli]

Also, this is rarely ever mentioned - the B2 were both workers at AC BAR, Mon's bar. That's an interesting detail.

Much has already been made about the relationship dynamic between illegal/migrant workers and their Thai bosses.

Not according to the defence team. Wai Phyo worked at the Safety Stop restaurant and Zaw Lin worked at the Brother bar. Maung Maung (the third Burmese) was an employee of Mon's as he worked at the AC2 bar.

I must be mistaken then. I know I saw a picture of the 2 defendants both wearing AC bar (or AC 2) t-shirts, and I thought it had been mentioned in a media report though I was perhaps joining mental dots.

Yes I thought I remembered seeing that also but looking at the photo again its only Maung Maung

[Darkknight666]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

Yaba is about 1000% more expensive than beer my friend. Also, if they took yaba, drink beer and commited a rape and murder they wouldn't be returning to their hut for some shut eye. Yaba makes you very awake,, no way to sleep. Also, no wounds on the B2 at all.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Ok, you wanna talk about Mon for a minute. Let's talk about him. He's the kind of guy who knows lots about what goes on - on his island, particularly in the area close to his bar, where the crime took place. It's no fluke that early on, RTP questioned him intensely for 3 hours non-stop. He claims it was himself who was shown in Running Man videos. That's preposterous and early on, RTP didn't believe it either. Indeed, the first RTP team was actively looking for Mon's nephew - who resembles Running Man perfectly. Mon wanted to divert the police's attention. The ruse only worked because Panya's superiors in Bkk were pulling the marionette strings.

Mon is a fix-it guy. I can't say whether he was actively involved in the crime (my hunch is he was, though I think it was NS who killed Hannah). I think there were also a few other men involved, all of whom friends with Mon and probably also connected to his bar. Mon likely manipulated the crime scene before the police arrived - even before the migrant gardener alerted him. Am surprised the hoe wasn't tossed far away or buried, though it was wiped at least once before forensics got it.

There's a lot more I could say, and have said in dozens of prior posts.

Incidentally, If I had ventured, just before the trial started, that RTP would admit to bungling up the DNA trail so thoroughly, RTP echoers would be jumping down my throat, to wit, "How dare you say that. You conspiracy theorist! You have an agenda, because you hate Thai police, blah blah blah." Of course, they'd all be wrong, as they have for the past 10 months. And we're just a few days from Act II of the trial - which is competing with the re-enactment - to see which is more farcical.

Addendum: When I read or hear of RTP doing a good job, I write (blog posts, letters to the Editor of newspapers) commending them. I know they can do a good job when they try. Unfortunately, they're trying to do a frame-up in this KT case, and their ruse is falling down all around them.

Why don't you say that Mon was brought in for questioning by the Police as at one point he was a suspect. But when the Police discovered his DNA didn't match Hannah's he was released, like the Football Team, Fast Boat Driver, David Millers Friend and Brother, and anyone else I may have missed.

Once you say his DNA cleared him as a suspect there is no need to say anymore. He is not on trail here for Rape and Murder.

I did write what you challenge me to say ("Mon was brought in for questioning by the Police as at one point he was a suspect"). Why challenge me to do something I already did in the post you're referring to? So, we agree on something. Fine.

But your closing sentence reeks of naivete. 'No need to say anymore about Mon - because his DNA cleared him....?' Get real. For ten months the DNA trail has been skewed by RTP. Actually worse than skewed, it's been lied about - and more proofs of that will ensue as the trial continues. One thing should happen, if it's proven that RTP deliberately skewed the DNA announcements to frame anyone: Those same RTP should be disciplined to the full extent. Not just the 1,2 or 3 top brass at the eye of the pyramid, but every official who played a part in deliberately misrepresenting the DNA trail. This should not end with mere 'assignments to inactive posts' ....but with something tangible, like large fines and prison time. I suggest 5 years each for lower-downs, and 15 years each for those at the top who were orchestrating it, if it's proven in court (for many of us, the proofs are already plain to see).

You make a good argument. No doubt! But what you lack is proof! Evidence! Something to link this together. Which so far I have not seen one single piece of. Surely if you are so sure you must have something other than what other people say. Or some CCTV Footage so grainy you can't make it out to be your Grandmother or not, with some with dates, and some with not. That nobody reset the time when the power went out. That even if it was the person you claim it does not tie him to any murder.

The only evidence I have heard about was the one that cleared Mon and Nomsod, which was their DNA. Whether you believe it or not is irrelevant. You are not part of the trial and neither am I. What you think or I think does not change the outcome. But I do try to make my judgments based on logic and evidence I have only heard about so far. If you have some to show then fine. If you don't then this is fine to.

[Thesticle]

I heard that David killed Hannah then someone else killed him. I heard NS was David's gay lover and Hannah got jealous . I heard Sean payed the Burmese 2 to do it. You see this it's wild speculation. If you are going to comment on the case at least use the basic facts that are known as a guide line to your suppositions. I follow this thread in the hope that someone might actually have some real info to shed some light on what's happening. I don't believe the official line but all this conjecture and people's imagination running away from them is not helpful. It fuels rumour .

[thailandchilli]

I heard that David killed Hannah then someone else killed him. I heard NS was David's gay lover and Hannah got jealous . I heard Sean payed the Burmese 2 to do it. You see this it's wild speculation. If you are going to comment on the case at least use the basic facts that are known as a guide line to your suppositions. I follow this thread in the hope that someone might actually have some real info to shed some light on what's happening. I don't believe the official line but all this conjecture and people's imagination running away from them is not helpful. It fuels rumour .

Fair point, but nobody here has access to what the defense claims and nobody here has access to what the prosecution claims.

Its the prosecutions job to provide evidence, so far that evidence has been seriously flawed by way of it being reports only with no way of verification.

The defenses role it to provide reasonable doubt and if they have evidence then all the better. But the way the trial is going currently it seems that anything can be called evidence because they say so, ie DNA reports and no proof of verification.

So no new info is likely to come from this forum that the defense or prosecution are not already aware of but it can provide clarity on a number of issues such as the recent reminder that apparently the B2 did not work in the AC Bar.

I'm afraid the theories that are put forward some can be wild and speculative but then so are the RTP's at the moment. However I believe some of the theories we put forward can have a real basis for the truth.

With the new information that the defense has very significant evidence that will seriously destroy the credibility of the prosecution case then without knowing what this is then sure speculation is normal, its a fact of life.

In addition the things discussed around evidence such as the hoe which appears to be suspect and contradictory, its only natural to discuss those contradictions as they could be a very important part of the case that has been compromised.

[stickylies]

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told.

Er, that ain't true... Many years ago pills were dirt cheap but ever since it's illegal [and in particular since Thaksins' "war on drugs"] prices are 10-15 times what they used to be. Drinking rice liquor is defo much cheaper than yaba.

[GOLDBUGGY]

I also believe she was killed because she was a witness to Davids murder who possibly arrived on the scene while the rape was taking place and was fatally attacked when he tried to intervene, from that time this incident turned from a rape on the beach to a rape and double murder, I also don't believe only 2x men were involved

This is my line of thought also

It is possible this could have happened. They could have had a prearranged time to meet there, or David just happened to come along. But....

I teach my daughters not to walk down dark back alleys at night. I am sure Hannah's Parents did the same thing. So would she wonder down a lonely beach by herself, when she must have been with someone, as I doubt she would drink alone? Would she wonder out to some totally isolated spot behind some rocks by herself late at night? Was she dragged there, when David would have had to been nearby to come up to them later? Would David be out drinking by himself to?

To me it seems more plausible they met up some place. They both stayed at the same place so maybe they met up just outside there door. Or maybe at the bar together, which they could have footage of evidence, but haven't shown the public yet. But a Girl out alone on her own, and a guy she was with that night (David) stumbling on the crime scene. Not likely.

More likely they were together and they murdered David first to get at Hannah later to rape her. The Motive. Then had to murder her to leave no witnesses to the crime. But I am not saying you could not be right as I honestly don't know.

[GOLDBUGGY]

So if the DNA is thrown out then it comes down to motive, opportunity and witness statement. Let me remind people of the Orange Juice (OJ Simpson) trial. GUILTY was my call but found innocent. My point? The OJ Simpson trial appears to have had more damning witness testimonials, DNA evidence, and motive then what they have against these two Burmese boys.

Only if that damn bloody glove would have slipped on...

You are probably right about that, except we haven't heard all of the evidence yet, and as we did with O.J. The Defense Team was able to discredit the DNA evidence also, and when the glove did not fit, it strongly indication that it was planted by the police. Enough to cause reasonable doubt anyway. If only they hadn't done that with the glove, who knows?

[Thesticle]

I heard that David killed Hannah then someone else killed him. I heard NS was David's gay lover and Hannah got jealous . I heard Sean payed the Burmese 2 to do it. You see this it's wild speculation. If you are going to comment on the case at least use the basic facts that are known as a guide line to your suppositions. I follow this thread in the hope that someone might actually have some real info to shed some light on what's happening. I don't believe the official line but all this conjecture and people's imagination running away from them is not helpful. It fuels rumour .

Fair point, but nobody here has access to what the defense claims and nobody here has access to what the prosecution claims.

Its the prosecutions job to provide evidence, so far that evidence has been seriously flawed by way of it being reports only with no way of verification.

The defenses role it to provide reasonable doubt and if they have evidence then all the better. But the way the trial is going currently it seems that anything can be called evidence because they say so, ie DNA reports and no proof of verification.

So no new info is likely to come from this forum that the defense or prosecution are not already aware of but it can provide clarity on a number of issues such as the recent reminder that apparently the B2 did not work in the AC Bar.

I'm afraid the theories that are put forward some can be wild and speculative but then so are the RTP's at the moment.

With the new information that the defense has very significant evidence that will seriously destroy the credibility of the prosecution case then without knowing what this is then sure speculation is normal, its a fact of life.

I'm all for people giving info such as did they work at the ac bar and questioning the RTP story but what grinds me is when people make wild speculations based on nothing more than their imagination. There is good info on this thread mixed in with copious amounts of bs, like you say that's life, I should probably just stop reading and wait for the trial. But God damn it, it's like crack I can't stop.

[JLCrab]

I like Boomer's stories about the stupid plodding Thai Police and the smart wily farang.

It's not all one-sided. I call it as I see it. Here's one from the other side of the coin. . . . .

< snip >after reading some of your stuff called iit like I see it I'd probably get suspended.

I was just summarizing your many stories about your dealings with the police in Chiang Rai. If, after reading some of your stuff, I called it as I see it, I'd probably get suspended.

[Tony121]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

seriously guys, have you lived here at all, these two worked in a bar and had finished work as I understand it, is not possible that they had been getting drinks throughout the evening probably bought for them by customers, I know any bar I socialise in the staff are generally well taken care of by customers and quite often a few of them will buy a bottle of whiskey between them and consume throughout the evening, what is the point of this discussion - they could not have been drunk on 2x bottles of beer.....seriously

yes I have been visiting here for twenty years and been living here full time for 13 years, So as the scenario you have just given above, is it not possible that the B2 had drinks bought for them by david Hannah or Sean as you said they socialise with customers ? and if you have been living here that long do you not know that yaba is a very big problem here ?

Do a little research on meth murder rape and this crime scene fits, not some Hiso kid who has been turned down for sex

[glenmohr]

But the facts are quite clear Mr Thesticle.

It is the role of the courts and the police in Thailand to protect the interests of the elite, the generals and the wealthy. This fact is beyond dispute.

In the matter of the Koh Tao trials the police are fulfilling their historic role in Thai society. These are facts, not hearsay.

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

What's a hippie?

(especially in the 1960s) a person of unconventional appearance, typically having long hair and wearing beads, associated with a subculture involving a rejection of conventional values and the taking of hallucinogenic drugs.

synonyms: flower child, Bohemian, beatnik, long-hair, free spirit, nonconformist,dropout

Except for the beads, that's me.

Hippie beads... multiple usage or just decorative neck bling?

[stephenterry]

I also believe she was killed because she was a witness to Davids murder who possibly arrived on the scene while the rape was taking place and was fatally attacked when he tried to intervene, from that time this incident turned from a rape on the beach to a rape and double murder, I also don't believe only 2x men were involved

This is my line of thought also

It is possible this could have happened. They could have had a prearranged time to meet there, or David just happened to come along. But....

I teach my daughters not to walk down dark back alleys at night. I am sure Hannah's Parents did the same thing. So would she wonder down a lonely beach by herself, when she must have been with someone, as I doubt she would drink alone? Would she wonder out to some totally isolated spot behind some rocks by herself late at night? Was she dragged there, when David would have had to been nearby to come up to them later? Would David be out drinking by himself to?

To me it seems more plausible they met up some place. They both stayed at the same place so maybe they met up just outside there door. Or maybe at the bar together, which they could have footage of evidence, but haven't shown the public yet. But a Girl out alone on her own, and a guy she was with that night (David) stumbling on the crime scene. Not likely.

More likely they were together and they murdered David first to get at Hannah later to rape her. The Motive. Then had to murder her to leave no witnesses to the crime. But I am not saying you could not be right as I honestly don't know.

I agree with most of what you've said, and I do think it is more likely that David and Hannah were together before any attack took place. However, the highlighted section is an improbable initial motive. It doesn't fit any motivation scenario. Kill someone to be able to get to rape someone else? That's extreme, and involves two motivating factors - lust and anger - not one.

More plausible is that a confrontation took place that resulted in David getting attacked. The rest follows. Is it important? Yes, because the RTP assert it was lust that caused the B2 to attack David.

While no-one on here knows, the testimony of the UK crime scene expert could shed light on what could have happened.

[thailandchilli]

I agree Tony that possibility of the 2 accused being on Yaba has merit. I to have thought about this possibility. Yaba in Thai means "crazy medicine". There must be a good reason why they call it that.

For one thing Yaba is cheaper to buy then alcohol, or so I was told. So if I was a poor Migrant Worker who wanted to get high, this may be a preferred choice as it cost less. It is known that Yaba is a problem among Bar Girls, as it helps them with there weight, gives them energy, and is cheap and plentiful to buy.

But one of the puzzles to me in this crime was what the 2 accused plus 1 witness said later and when they were not under pressure by anyone. They had gone to 7-11 to buy 3 beer (1 beer each). The also bought cigarettes, but I read in one media report they bought this at 7-11, and in another they went to a different shop nearby. So now I am unsure exactly where they bought the smokes.

Later on in the evening, while sitting on the beach playing the guitar, the witness wanted to go and see his girlfriend. He asked his friends and they to come also buy they said they wanted to stay longer on the beach and drink some more. The Media then reported he went and brought them 1 more beer each. It is assumed that he left right after that to be with his girlfriend, but not much detail on that. He did say he left them at about 1 am.

From a Media Report on their appearance in court, back in December I think, the 2 accused stated they did not do these crimes. This Media Report goes on to say that when asked who did this crime, to not be afraid to tell, they said they didn't know. They said they didn't see anything, and that they were drunk, and staggered home.

What puzzles me is how is it possible that the 2 accused men can get so drunk on just 2 bottles of beer? My Aunt Emma was a Teetotaler all her life and she could drink more than that. Surely if they went to buy more beer that to would be captured on CCTV at the 7-11 store. How many other shops in a village that would be open for selling beer at that time in the morning? If they had more beer at home then why stop at the 7-11 in the first place? Keep in mind that their friend gave them a full beer each and then left at 1 am. The Rape and Murders took place between the hours of 2 am and 4 am. They also never claimed they left the beach to buy more beer either.

So how is it possible that 2 men can get so screwed up in the head after only 2 beer, to the point they can hardly walk home and don't even know what time that was, that they never saw anything, and even rumors from a Media Report that they left their Guitar behind? Unless of course they were under the influence of another drug, like "crazy medicine". So I agree again with you that being on Yaba at the time of the murders has merit.

seriously guys, have you lived here at all, these two worked in a bar and had finished work as I understand it, is not possible that they had been getting drinks throughout the evening probably bought for them by customers, I know any bar I socialise in the staff are generally well taken care of by customers and quite often a few of them will buy a bottle of whiskey between them and consume throughout the evening, what is the point of this discussion - they could not have been drunk on 2x bottles of beer.....seriously

yes I have been visiting here for twenty years and been living here full time for 13 years, So as the scenario you have just given above, is it not possible that the B2 had drinks bought for them by david Hannah or Sean as you said they socialise with customers ? and if you have been living here that long do you not know that yaba is a very big problem here ?

Do a little research on meth murder rape and this crime scene fits, not some Hiso kid who has been turned down for sex

The problem with this meth theory is that it does not solve anything as it can be applied to any suspect or person of interest as a justification to say why they carried out this crime, so yes if the B2 took meth then this would not help their case, equally if the rich kid took it or if any other locals took it it would also then provide a reason. I personally think its clouding the debate

[Kannikapor88]

Isn't it well know what type of power a Thai person, especially a VIP, has over their Burmese workers? I believe the B2 are scapegoats. But I don't believe they couldn't have been involved in some capacity. I hate even the thought of it, but they could be involved. I do not believe the B2 killed David and Hannah.. Whoever did that had a specific issue with Hannah, that you can be sure of.

I do agree with you last sentence but the other reason could be they were high on Yaba or ice.

http://www.treatmentsolutions.com/unspeakable-methamphetamine-crimes/

http://www.myfoxtwincities.com/story/29398114/police-sartell-24-year-old-murdered-with-a-hammer-suspect-possibly-on-meth

No, just no. They would have tried to run. Also, they were sitting on the beach drinking and playing guitar which has been established. I don't believe for a second a druggy episode is behind this crime. Look at the difference in the two.. Hannah was brutalized to make some kind of statement, Now, what would the B2 need to prove to Hannah? Nada, they're migrant workers.

Ask yourself who had motive.

Well lets see who has the most motive here.

Is it a Rich Kid who is in University who could have almost any woman he wanted, but already has a Girlfriend? Who is obviously intelligent enough to know, as a university, that a murder like this on the Island would hurt his Father's Business, as well as his Uncles'?

Or is it 2 Horny Migrant Works who have minimum education and don't have girlfriends, and haven't been with a woman for possibly years, who are licking their chops every time they see a beautiful woman in a bikini, and who get drunk on 2 Beer thus perhaps also Yaba as well?

Nope! Sorry! The Horny Migrant Workers get my vote for the most motive.

Are you a relative to "The (disgusting ) Rich Kid" ... ?

Rich Kid gets my vote for sure ...