Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[JohnThailandJohn]

Actually the families released another statement just a week or two ago with at least one stating they want this to play out in the court and how speculation has been hurtful to the family and the victim's friends and that they wanted people to respect their privacy

Dont you think its about time you stopped speaking for other people, the lawyer a few posts ago and now the the Miller family who did not say that. Its pretty easy to find the actual statement from them made at the beginning of the trial which you are referring to if you want the true one rather than your misinformation.

The Nation, Agencies [/size]July 9, 2015 1:00 am[/size]

The UK embassy in Bangkok released the statement of Miller's family, saying they had travelled to Koh[/size]Samui for the start of the trial into "the horrific murder of our loving son and brother David Miller, and Hannah Witheridge.[/size]

"The act which ended David's life devastated our family and his friends. Just hours before he died, David was talking to us with his usual enthusiasm, describing the beauty of Koh Tao and the friendliness of the Thai people. Over the coming weeks we hope to gain a better understanding as to how such a wonderful young man lost his life in such idyllic surroundings in such a horrible way."

"This pain will remain a part of us for the rest of our lives. We have borne our thoughts in silence, as we have not wanted to influence any court proceedings, but simply want to see justice done fairly and openly. We ask the media to afford David and Hannah dignity in the reporting of this trial and also that we are given privacy and respect while we battle with our emotions during the difficult weeks ahead."

For Witheridge's family, the statement said they also attended the trial, which they described as "the horrific murders of our beautiful Hannah, and David Miller". We stand united in our grief with David's family and together wish to have privacy to follow the trial.

"Hannah was a beautiful person, inside and out, she brought a room alive just being there. She was fun, honest and loved life. Her bright future was brutally ended, leaving those who loved her broken with no answers."

They also asked that the media treat Hannah with dignity in their reporting of the trial. "Speculation, rumour and theory have been incredibly hurtful to our family and Hannah's friends, making an already unthinkable time harder to bear.

"Please allow the police and the court to do their jobs during the coming weeks and months. We, of course, want to see those responsible for the brutal murder of our precious girl brought to justice."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Accused-in-Koh-Tao-murder-case-want-to-independent-30264065.html

You'll notice I was referring to the Miller family, however I accept your link and see the Witherbridge family did also make a statement, but as his been mentioned many times this is now much bigger than just the family. You'll be testimony to that as you yourself are still speculating.

I didn't say the Miller family said it, I said one of the families. So your accusation of this being misinformation was BS.

As a side note, the Miller family also did say they wanted privacy and their statement also indicated a confidence in the court uncovering the truth though not stated as directly as the other family.

Edited July 23, 2015 by JohnThailandJohn

[Drees]

The family has expressed confidence in the investigation

Bottom line not speculation if they know from the toxicology reports he was.

RTP purposefully DID NOT release toxicology reports right after the crime, when they should have. Their soggy reason: it might upset the victims' families, which to me, is BS. The victims' families were already devastated upon hearing of the demise of their lovely offspring, why would hearing toxicology reports upset them further?

Why should they have released the toxicology reports publicly prior to an arrest let alone a trial? Absolutely ZERO public good it would serve and being considerate of the families, who have since made clear they are already troubled by all the idiotic theories online, is a valid reasons.

These murders are not about you or anyone else on this forum and certainly the police and people involved in the actual investigation are not hear to serve the twisted need for some people to play detective online. This case will be decided in the courts and what you, I or anyone else thinks about that is meaningless. The family has expressed confidence in the investigation and the court and they are not only in a much better position to know more about the case and evidence but are the only ones whose interests and motivations to be part of this in this case/crime is above suspicion.

For pity's sake stop bashing out the same old mantra will you. That statement was made via the FO almost 8 months ago! Please give the families some credit and try and understand that they are unlikely to be stuck in the same groove as you are and have been since this case began. You are not a spokesperson for the families and it's high time you took your own advice.

Actually the families released another statement just a week or two ago with at least one stating they want this to play out in the court and how speculation has been hurtful to the family and the victim's friends and that they wanted people to respect their privacy

Dear John,

I never have responded to anything on this site, but I am sorry have to say I am getting a little bit sick of you. Why are you trying to convince everybody that they are wrong and you are right? I don't understand this. Have you got nothing better to do? People not change there mind, because you tell them.

Maybe the B2 are guilty, maybe they are not. I don't know. And you don't know also!! I think they are not guilty just like everyhbody here. You think they are guilty.. That is okay.

Now you are saying that the family is hurted by all the speculation. Why you speculate so much? If you care so much about the victim's friends and family, you should not do that.

[26vinny]

@stephenterry - not a troll (despite my unfortunate profile pic which I just noticed), just someone who needs some sleep. I live in California now - wife is doing her masters at UCSD. It's 6:58am over here. I would not be writing any of this sort of stuff if I was still based in Thailand.

I was there in 2013 and returned for a short holiday in Jan 2014. Which of course was 9 months before this all happened (I was living in the states when it happened). My post is merely to provide some context to the life around the island. That said 99% of the time, it's pretty chilled out there and I enjoyed my time there, but I wasn't wearing rose coloured glasses.

With regards to the whole "Fire Dancer" thing, please don't read more into that than needed, It's merely a scenario, just like the hundreds of tin foil hat scenarios that have been posted all over the net. But, it's a more likely scenario than half of them. Please don't misinterpret this as I have some form of evidence suggesting it. I don't. I'm merely speaking from experience having lived there, and dealt with some of the characters on the island.

My point is more along the lines of, out of all the locals who tended to be pretty loose - those were the guys, bar owners had assets to protect, businesses, reputation and Face. The fire dancers were transient, with a good command of english, proper six pack beach bods, and liked to try and score foreign chicks. Some of them were definitely on drugs some of the time, and they definitely had weapons. BUT it's merely speculation. As for why blame the burmese rather than look at those avenues - two reasons:

1) Racism, local Thais are insanely racist when it comes to Burmese, and they are disposable.

2) Face/Politics - those in the govt said Thais couldn't have done this, it was just after the coup so was easier to blame a farang (i.e Shaun) - then that dind't work out so the easiest scapegoat is a Burmese worker. No papers, minimal lanugage skills, no rights. Easy.

Mike, I read your original post and it's definitely words of experience, but I can also see how your pointing towards the fire-dancer(s) and saying the headman's family couldn't have been involved could look like intentional mis-direction. Personally I disagree with you but don't think you were being insincere.

As others have pointed out in response, the lengths to which some rich/powerful locals and the cops have gone to finger these two Burmese doesn't make sense if the murderers weren't more closely connected to these people than any fire dancer would be. It seems they'd readily give him/them up to protect themselves.

The grisly, horrific way one or more people bashed in Hannah's face seems to be due to extreme rage, so the question is who would feel such rage at a young woman, and would be willing to do something like this. Either he/they were drugged out beyond reason, or they had/have a strong sense of entitlement and protection from any consequences.

It's easy to come across examples of the offspring of rich and powerful people acting brutally towards others, I mean history's full of such stories. Another reason that for me at least fingers point toward someone in or close to one of the families who control KT.

I have no idea if this guy Nomsod is involved, there are definitely some things pointing toward him, and there aren't any pointing toward 99% of the other people on the island. That alone would make him a person of interest to LE in most corners of the world.

I saw a pic of him holding a large discharge hose for a bilge or bailing pump on a boat like it's his man-thang (it's discharging water in the pic), could just be a casual joke caught on camera, but two things stand out about him in that pic--he's very wiry (lots of muscle definition), so no weakling, and his expression looks anything but innocent, kind of nasty actually, that is he's not showing an innocent smile by any means. It's an unvarnished view of him that contrasts strongly with the image he's projecting in his public appearances after the murders. Someone should post that pic up again on this thread because I think it is pretty revealing.

[Linky]

You have no evidence of any information the murdered couples families have received so your assertion that they know more is pure speculation. So why dont you heed your own advice and stop speculating.

Do you suspect they lied or were deceived or are just ignorant? I tend to believe they have no motive to lie and have a real concern in wanting the truth and in fact have taken advantage of all resource available to them including their embassy, UK Police, who were here and to investigate if their was any reason to suspect a cover-up was happening, and the UK Medical Examiner. So no reason for me to doubt their below statements that were shared after UK Police returned and met with them

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement."

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

As you ask, they were deceived.

So lets look at the resourses you mention.

The Embassy, the Embassy that simply states it cannot get involved in the judicial process. All the Embassy would have done is tell them the 2 were charged and the dates of the trial, maybe even a little about how the court system works. Do you have any evidence of any information the Embassy provided? Any at all?

You say the UK police were there to investigate. No you are blatantly wrong. They never investigated anything, they only observed. They then relayed some information from what the RTP told them. Do you have ANY information on what details they received. Do yo have any facts to indicate the UK police did ANY investigation in Thailand? No youndont because they have already said they did not investigate.

The Medical Examiner, what information have they provided?

So in summary, the families have in reality only received a little information indirectly from the RTP. Thats it.

So if you are comfortable in thinking the families have more of an idea who did this crime than anyone else then That is a matter for your own conscience.

If you were honest and wanted a fair trial and to ensure the correct people are caught for these murders then you should be happy that question, opinions, ideas are all considered.

You do want the killers caught, DONT YOU?

[JohnThailandJohn]

How about this Christopher Ware? If I recall correctly he had a bloody trouser in his luggage, or something? Have a good look at his right hand wrist...

Seems that all the foreigners named in regards to this case, carry wounds... just like Sean with the blood stained guitar...

If I were the judge, the trial would not even have begun without those two appearing in court. If I were the parent to one of the victims, I'd have asked Scotland Yard to put out an arrest warrant so they can be questioned, detained and if necessary put in a witness protection program. I think they are not just key witnesses, but involved somehow...

Ware stated that he got the injury on his arm previous to the murders and there were photos in the media that showed his arm bandaged before the crimes, but I agree that both British men could be involved in some capacity.

Sean had his injury since the 9th of September. 6 days before the murder. But what about the blood on his guitar? Was it from this accident or from another incident later on? Was this blood on the guitar ever tested for DNA and why he never wash this blood from his guitar.

What I don't understand is why those believing there was a set-up, why the police didn't use this guy instead of clearing him and saying his DNA didn't match. He would have been the perfect scapegoat and certainly would be the best outcome in terms of people believing it mattered to authorities the nationality of the accused in terms of the view of Thailand ... farnang on farnang crime would be the best scenario if this was a motivation.

No idea if the guitar was tested but should have been ... I would think they would have looked at this guy really hard before clearing him based on a number of suspicious things and I believe this was before they DNA confirmed it was an Asian(s) involved.

[smedly]

Both the families are being exposed these last few days how the Thai justice system works and how it is applied, it is likely they are totally inexperienced in such matters back home, the average UK family are rarely involved in such things as murder trials and when they are they rely on guidance from police and legal council and generally trust the system to be fair.

I would guess there are a few experienced and qualified people in such matters posting on this forum, of that I have no doubt

[Linky]

The Nation, Agencies July 9, 2015 1:00 am

The UK embassy in Bangkok released the statement of Miller's family, saying they had travelled to KohSamui for the start of the trial into "the horrific murder of our loving son and brother David Miller, and Hannah Witheridge.

"The act which ended David's life devastated our family and his friends. Just hours before he died, David was talking to us with his usual enthusiasm, describing the beauty of Koh Tao and the friendliness of the Thai people. Over the coming weeks we hope to gain a better understanding as to how such a wonderful young man lost his life in such idyllic surroundings in such a horrible way."

"This pain will remain a part of us for the rest of our lives. We have borne our thoughts in silence, as we have not wanted to influence any court proceedings, but simply want to see justice done fairly and openly. We ask the media to afford David and Hannah dignity in the reporting of this trial and also that we are given privacy and respect while we battle with our emotions during the difficult weeks ahead."

For Witheridge's family, the statement said they also attended the trial, which they described as "the horrific murders of our beautiful Hannah, and David Miller". We stand united in our grief with David's family and together wish to have privacy to follow the trial.

"Hannah was a beautiful person, inside and out, she brought a room alive just being there. She was fun, honest and loved life. Her bright future was brutally ended, leaving those who loved her broken with no answers."

They also asked that the media treat Hannah with dignity in their reporting of the trial. "Speculation, rumour and theory have been incredibly hurtful to our family and Hannah's friends, making an already unthinkable time harder to bear.

"Please allow the police and the court to do their jobs during the coming weeks and months. We, of course, want to see those responsible for the brutal murder of our precious girl brought to justice."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/national/Accused-in-Koh-Tao-murder-case-want-to-independent-30264065.html

If your so concerned about their wishes feel free to stop posting

Please allow the police and the court tondo their jobs.

Yes, also to be fair please allow the defense to do their job too. I understand it is hurtful to them, but if, as they say they want it fair and those responsible brought to justice then it is necessary for defense to do their job whether the families like it or not.

It is also hurtful to the families of the accused, or does that not matter.

[StealthEnergiser]

The family has expressed confidence in the investigation

Bottom line not speculation if they know from the toxicology reports he was.

RTP purposefully DID NOT release toxicology reports right after the crime, when they should have. Their soggy reason: it might upset the victims' families, which to me, is BS. The victims' families were already devastated upon hearing of the demise of their lovely offspring, why would hearing toxicology reports upset them further?

Why should they have released the toxicology reports publicly prior to an arrest let alone a trial? Absolutely ZERO public good it would serve and being considerate of the families, who have since made clear they are already troubled by all the idiotic theories online, is a valid reasons.

These murders are not about you or anyone else on this forum and certainly the police and people involved in the actual investigation are not hear to serve the twisted need for some people to play detective online. This case will be decided in the courts and what you, I or anyone else thinks about that is meaningless. The family has expressed confidence in the investigation and the court and they are not only in a much better position to know more about the case and evidence but are the only ones whose interests and motivations to be part of this in this case/crime is above suspicion.

For pity's sake stop bashing out the same old mantra will you. That statement was made via the FO almost 8 months ago! Please give the families some credit and try and understand that they are unlikely to be stuck in the same groove as you are and have been since this case began. You are not a spokesperson for the families and it's high time you took your own advice.

Actually the families released another statement just a week or two ago with at least one stating they want this to play out in the court and how speculation has been hurtful to the family and the victim's friends and that they wanted people to respect their privacy

Dear John,

I never have responded to anything on this site, but I am sorry have to say I am getting a little bit sick of you. Why are you trying to convince everybody that they are wrong and you are right? I don't understand this. Have you got nothing better to do? People not change there mind, because you tell them.

Maybe the B2 are guilty, maybe they are not. I don't know. And you don't know also!! I think they are not guilty just like everyhbody here. You think they are guilty.. That is okay.

Now you are saying that the family is hurted by all the speculation. Why you speculate so much? If you care so much about the victim's friends and family, you should not do that.

You like many other' despise this person who's agenda will be found out. Eventually questions will asked of what are his connections to nomsod and the headman.

99 percent of readers would be much happier if he stopped his tactics and gave respect to members and families of B2/ Hannah David.

[smedly]

You have no evidence of any information the murdered couples families have received so your assertion that they know more is pure speculation. So why dont you heed your own advice and stop speculating.

Do you suspect they lied or were deceived or are just ignorant? I tend to believe they have no motive to lie and have a real concern in wanting the truth and in fact have taken advantage of all resource available to them including their embassy, UK Police, who were here and to investigate if their was any reason to suspect a cover-up was happening, and the UK Medical Examiner. So no reason for me to doubt their below statements that were shared after UK Police returned and met with them

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement."

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

As you ask, they were deceived.

So lets look at the resourses you mention.

The Embassy, the Embassy that simply states it cannot get involved in the judicial process. All the Embassy would have done is tell them the 2 were charged and the dates of the trial, maybe even a little about how the court system works. Do you have any evidence of any information the Embassy provided? Any at all?

You say the UK police were there to investigate. No you are blatantly wrong. They never investigated anything, they only observed. They then relayed some information from what the RTP told them. Do you have ANY information on what details they received. Do yo have any facts to indicate the UK police did ANY investigation in Thailand? No youndont because they have already said they did not investigate.

The Medical Examiner, what information have they provided?

So in summary, the families have in reality only received a little information indirectly from the RTP. Thats it.

So if you are comfortable in thinking the families have more of an idea who did this crime than anyone else then That is a matter for your own conscience.

If you were honest and wanted a fair trial and to ensure the correct people are caught for these murders then you should be happy that question, opinions, ideas are all considered.

You do want the killers caught, DONT YOU?

very well said and 100% correct

[catsanddogs]

I don't recall any discussion on here about this bloke with the white vest and headband. He is with Hannah, one of her friends and David at 07.32 on one of the videos (analogue time?). He is with David at 01.56 - did he enter the AC bar with David at around 2am? Looks like he's carrying something in a plastic jug.

[sammygood]

somebody wake me up when we have arrived at page 1000

[fayou]

How about this Christopher Ware? If I recall correctly he had a bloody trouser in his luggage, or something? Have a good look at his right hand wrist...

Seems that all the foreigners named in regards to this case, carry wounds... just like Sean with the blood stained guitar...

If I were the judge, the trial would not even have begun without those two appearing in court. If I were the parent to one of the victims, I'd have asked Scotland Yard to put out an arrest warrant so they can be questioned, detained and if necessary put in a witness protection program. I think they are not just key witnesses, but involved somehow...

Ware stated that he got the injury on his arm previous to the murders and there were photos in the media that showed his arm bandaged before the crimes, but I agree that both British men could be involved in some capacity.

Sean had his injury since the 9th of September. 6 days before the murder. But what about the blood on his guitar? Was it from this accident or from another incident later on? Was this blood on the guitar ever tested for DNA and why he never wash this blood from his guitar.

What I don't understand is why those believing there was a set-up, why the police didn't use this guy instead of clearing him and saying his DNA didn't match. He would have been the perfect scapegoat and certainly would be the best outcome in terms of people believing it mattered to authorities the nationality of the accused in terms of the view of Thailand ... farnang on farnang crime would be the best scenario if this was a motivation.

No idea if the guitar was tested but should have been ... I would think they would have looked at this guy really hard before clearing him based on a number of suspicious things and I believe this was before they DNA confirmed it was an Asian(s) involved.

Sean also said he was among a group of people playing guitar on the beach near the scene.

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/new-twist-murder-two-brits-koh-tao

[Blackfox]

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us,"

"Do you think they lied..."?

I think anyone will lie so as to maintain life preservation. This is speculation but very possible knowing how the RTP work here.

"UK Police, who were here and to investigate..."

Incorrect. I don't possess the link but I'm sure many others will concur; they were here merely to observe.

I don't doubt they have performed and shared "vast areas of investigative work".

It's just the integrity of this I question.

Thus far, I don't see transparency which has implications on a fair and just trial (to find the truth).

Keep in mind the RTP have some well heeled and well spoken English speaking members that are often in civvies at major RTP stations. These pricks I believe are very cunning and I have an unequivocal mistrust of them. They have the savvy to give comfort, advice, and reasoning to a grieving family and the ability to turn cold and venomous a minute later. Be warned if you ever come across these pricks.

To end, I do believe there are sound members within the RTP ranks however, it's the ones with a degree of wealth and influence that exercise corruption and this power they yield make it impossible for the straight shooters to get up to higher levels where their positive influence can then effect changes, which just may prevent extreme incompetence we are seeing in this case and huge cover ups we've seen in others.

Edited July 23, 2015 by Blackfox

[smedly]

What I don't understand is why those believing there was a set-up, why the police didn't use this guy instead of clearing him and saying his DNA didn't match. He would have been the perfect scapegoat and certainly would be the best outcome in terms of people believing it mattered to authorities the nationality of the accused in terms of the view of Thailand ... farnang on farnang crime would be the best scenario if this was a motivation.

No idea if the guitar was tested but should have been ... I would think they would have looked at this guy really hard before clearing him based on a number of suspicious things and I believe this was before they DNA confirmed it was an Asian(s) involved.

the problem with you is that you trust everything you are being told or at least seem to base everything you post here on that premise, it has been explained to you many times how and why your thinking is flawed but you refuse to listen - your motivation to post here is highly suspicious IMO

We on the other hand are vastly more experienced and have the wisdom and intelligence to question everything, not only that - but most of us explain why we question something, why evidence should not be relied on, why the testimony of a single cop should not be believed unless there is evidence to support it and is verifiable under strict rules either during processing of such evidence or making it available for scrutiny or both.

It is not acceptable just to believe a policeman for what he says to make a case and convict - in the UK - US - EU or any other civilised country it must be backed up with verifiable evidence or a strictly adhered to process that has involved defence council throughout

There is nothing so far I have read about seen or that has been presented to the court by the prosecution or police that can convince me it is accurate truthful and verifiable ..............nothing

And I would like nothing better than to see a conviction and a death penalty but it must be based on proven facts and not - "it is true because I say so"

[cowboy country]

4 days now and still not heard or seen anything coming from the court and prosecution that remotely proves the B2 are guilty..

Sketchy at best corrupt by RTP and authorities looking even more likely. This whole episode is so sad. Still no undeniable conclusive issue presented by police that can't be challenged or discounted.

Not that there is any evidence or proof the state will provide that will be offered that will not be discounted by many here, it would be unusual for a Prosecutor to start the case with their strongest evidence. The early days are about building up the foundation of the case and various facts that will (should) be tied together later.

Also. you are not there to hear everything and the people mainly volunteering information to the press are on the defense side and the news outlets covering the court case are sharing very little about the actual proceedings. Not like we are going to here gavel to gavel coverage here being the proceeding are in Thai and Thailand where trials are not covered like the west or often video taped like the US. Kind of normal for something to be big news when it happens, when there is an arrest and then when there is a verdict and then less coverage, but still some, when it comes to the appeals and commutations.

I haven't even seen the court case being covered in the Thai Language news and if it is it isn't considered much of news. Again this is SOP here but it will make the news again once there is a disposition but it won't be to the extend of the original coverage up through the arrest.

Highlighted items above

I think you'll find the prosecution started their case on the 8th July, first day of the trial with what they thought was their strongest evidence. Reports from the DNA with no means for verification and the defense still waiting for access to the promised items.

Yes very true, the court system in Thailand is designed that way so we don't hear everything and have to wait for the official transcript from the judge, thankfully we are getting reports despite this which you also are latching on to quite vigorously

The first section of the trial starting on the 8th July was covered extensively in the Thai press, for some reason they've decided to stop that blanket reporting, I have my thoughts on the reasons why as do many other people. Goes hand in hand with the lack of available translators

Could be wrong here but the first day they didn't put on DNA evidence. They would introduce this with somebody who is qualified to explain the results and likely involved in overseeing the testing. Best I recall there was only a police witness' who who were talking about the crime scene and no testimony yet connecting DNA to the Suspects

You can have all the suspicions you want about why the trial is not being covered in the Thai news but the bottom line is this is normal in Thailand.

As for latching to court reports, actually I don't but do read the news. The closest thing I have seen to a report of the testimony is what I believe was 12 hours of court session yesterday and a very brief overview of the timeline of the victims solely from Video feeds. Face it, nobody is reporting the actually trial and just giving brief snippets and this is likely because it is not easy due to translation, the restrictions on them covering the trial and it is just not common practice here.

Despite other's views, the Thai judges will do an honest and informed job in determining the verdict in this case if the defendants don't plead guilty prior to the verdict.

LMFAO at the last sentence especially....you seem to think if you keep talking the same crap over and over again someone will believe you...Give it a rest...

If the defendants don't plead guilty!!!! Please take an IQ test and tel us the results....Just for the lulz..

[smedly]

I don't recall any discussion on here about this bloke with the white vest and headband. He is with Hannah, one of her friends and David at 07.32 on one of the videos (analogue time?). He is with David at 01.56 - did he enter the AC bar with David at around 2am? Looks like he's carrying something in a plastic jug. no timestamp.jpg7.32.jpgwhoisthis.jpghimagain.png

was running man wearing Davids wet shorts, possibly the only thing not covered in blood

[stephenterry]

Re the DNA evidence that has not been substantiated. If the judge could accept that the RTP did have it and allow it as evidence, it's equally feasible for the defence to state they have DNA evidence reports that proves the B2's samples did not match that of either victim, but sorry, it's been all used up.

Logically, if the defence is unable to retest samples, then there is no evidence, just hearsay. And if lost/used up, or finished then there has been a flawed chain of custody and possible contamination.

Further, that the RTP have failed to let the defence examine the few bits and pieces left, including the alleged murder weapon, despite the court permitting an examination, is tantamount to contempt of court - and it should be a prosecutable offence.

[HughJass]

for me the case was cut and dried when the Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamengave a statement in front of the media

he was subsequently transferred a few days later to be replaced by General Somyot who is the guy that appears a later on with Nomsod and his father for the circus show DNA test

there is no getting away from this event.and why isnt this sudden chage of tack being investigated and the reason it was suddenly dropped and Panya transferred?

one final query is the whereabouts of Nomsods brother who there was talk about shortly after the murders

http://englishnews.thaipbs.or.th/one-tourist-murder-suspect-now-arrested-another-run

One tourist murder suspect now arrested, another on the run

in General |

September 23, 2014 3:18 pm

The police have arrested a suspect in the murder of two British tourists in Koh Tao and are still hunting for a second suspect who has escaped into Bangkok.

Eighth Region Police Command commissioner Pol Lt-Gen Panya Mamen identified the first suspect as Mon.

He is the brother of a village headman in Koh Tao.

He was arrested after evidence which police collected were examined and proved he was involved, he said.

He also said another suspect is also a son of that village headman. But he has already to Bangkok.

He said both suspects were captured by CCTV cameras and the police have gathered enough evidence to implicate them in the murders.

He said the southern police were coordinating with the metropolitan police to hunt him down, and expected to apprehend him today.

The southern police chief also assured the public that there was no arrest of scapegoats in this murder case as it now is a focal attention of the world.

He also dismissed any suggestion of local mafias or influential people that could twist the investigation with promise that local influence would pose no obstacle to the police investigation.

Instead the police will eliminate all these mafias, he said.

Meanwhile a police source said the police are also looking into the cooperation of those who helped to arrange the suspect to escape. They also will be arrested.

[stephenterry]

trial kicks off w/ cross-examination of yesterday's police witness. He tells court there is no footage of suspects' interrogation.

Which means their oral confessions are all hearsay.

Ah, but they signed a confession written in Thai.

They don't understand any more than basic Thai. How to ask for fags and beer, that sort of thing. A double rape and murder is beyond their comprehension.

It was translated by a trained police interpreter - a roti seller.

There is no footage of that, which means it's all hearsay.

We are the experts, we know what happened.

Pity you didn't have the expertise to record the interrogation, then.

verbal exchange of expletives...

[JLCrab]

So have you created any fictional Asian bulldog defense attorneys so you can show the current ones how it should be done i.e. Bangkok's answer to F. Lee Bailey?

Edited July 23, 2015 by JLCrab

[silverado]

MikeENZ, who apparently provided some insights about life on KT and KP for the TIME Magazine "The Sceptic Isle" story casts doubt on the possibility that the son of an influential figure on the sceptic island could have committed or been involved in the rape and murders because he would have had too much too lose.

Personally I have no idea who committed the crimes and don't wish to point the finger of suspicion at anyone in particular. However, I would like to point out that MikeENZ's theory is inconsistent with the observed behaviour of the sons of wealthy and influential figures in Thailand. Without naming names or citing dates, I list from memory some incidents I recall over the years in Thailand.

- The son of an influential politician was alleged to have shot a policeman in the head at point blank range in a disco over an argument about someone stepping on his toe. No conviction.

- The son of a gangster associated with gambling dens in Bangkok shot the nephew of a Thai diplomat in the face non-fatally in a disco in Bangkok after the victim allegedly stepped on his toe. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician became irate when a pick-up truck cut in front of him on a Bangkok street. The pick-up truck was pulled over by bodyguards travelling in another car and the driver was beaten. The politician's son walked towards him and fired a shot that missed. Then he pointed the gun right at his head and pulled the trigger but it failed to fire. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician was pulled over by a traffic cop on Pattanakarn Road in Bangkok for a minor violation and got irate when the cop refused to let him go without booking him. So he pulled out his gun and shot the cop in the face non-fatally. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of an influential politician abducted a police sergeant over an unknown dispute and incarcerated him for 2 or 3 days. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of a billionaire who sells cafeinated sugar water to gullible fools all over the world ran over a police sergeant and dragged him on the car's bonnet for 220 metres before tipping him on the road, ensuring death, if it had not already occurred. Then he attempted to get a family servant to claim responsibility for the crime in his place. He was charged but there has been no attempt to bring him to court and almost certainly the case will be allowed expire under Thailand's ridiculous statute of limitations.

- The son of an influential Isaan politician became irate when he was travelling in was overtaken by a pick-up truck on an isolated country road. He speeded up and overtook the pick-up so that he and at least one of his buddies could fire into the pick-up repeatedly with their illegally carried handguns but missed him completely. The pick-up truck owner, a building contractor, was ready for them and returned fire with his own illegal handgun, killing the politician's son instantly. LOL. The pick-up truck owner was prosecuted.

I could go on but I think this pattern illustrates something in the Thai psyche that MikeENZ obviously failed to learn during his brief stint in Thailand as an illegal worker in tourist resorts. Sons of wealthy and influential people are brought up with a sense of entitlement and impunity which makes them believe they can and have and do whatever they want and never have to face any consequences because Daddy will fix any problems that result. The above list indicates that they are often right. This makes their reflexes different from most less privileged people in Thailand or people living in rule of law jurisdictions, who are more likely to stop short at a point where they should be able to see a possibility of spending many years in prison. Since they don't feel they will have to face the consequences of their actions, they don't see any need to control their flashpoints and, in a country where face is so important, this can lead to some ugly situations. Some of these spoiled brats think nothing of killing some one who accidentally steps on their toe. You can imagine how they would feel if they have been slighted sexually and lost face in front of their buddies and servants.

Another point has been raised by other posters, i.e. why would police go to so much trouble and why would the case be escalated to such a high level to protect a fire dancing drifter, even if he was Thai. In the case of the Katherine Horton murder in Samui, the authorities were happy to arrest and convict two Thai fishermen. No doubt Burmese fishermen would have been preferable but Thai fishermen are only a couple of rungs up the ladder and are also of no consequence, as are Thai fire dancers..

agree completly ! i suspect somebody (one of those disgusting RTP defenders here ? ) impersonate for MikeENZ..... identity spoofing then... crime on TV ????

[StealthEnergiser]

Interesting Photo on another popular Facebook site that want's the truth .

The police who handled this case claimed that a person on CCTV is a Burmese suspect. However, I don't see any similarity between Mr. Win and the guy on CCTV, especially the nose. What do you think?

Edited July 23, 2015 by StealthEnergiser

[balo]

Instead of all the gossip in this thread the focus should stay on whats going on in the court

"Today’s court hearing, which lasted for nearly 12 hours, saw only one witness: an investigative police officer chosen by the prosecution to present dozens of video clips culled from the footage of 300 CCTV cameras installed in the vicinity of the crime. The officer, Pol.Col. Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, said that only 100 of those cameras were operational, and 22 of them showed the movements of Witheridge and Miller on their final night."

So 12 hours seems long to me , they probably spent a long time going through the footage from all the CCTV cameras , and for the first time we've been told that 100 of around 300 cameras were working that night.

Only 1 witness yesterday , I expect more witnesses today. This is a lot more interesting than listening to conspiracy theorists on TV,

Edited July 23, 2015 by balo

[stephenterry]

So have you created any fictional Asian bulldog defense attorneys so you can show the current ones how it should be done i.e. Bangkok's answer to F. Lee Bailey?

While the above post is tongue in cheek, (and no intent to cast a slight on the defence team) there is a serious side in that the RTP are being shown up as being totally unprofessional in practically everything they do or say (apart from the frequent porkies, that is). No credibility at all.

so far in this trial:-

failure to produce DNA samples

failure to produce a recording of the interrogation.

failure to allow the defence to examine the hoe and other bits and pieces.

I would suggest the current defence team is more than capable of destroying the prosecution's case without my fictionalised account.

[HUH]

Instead of all the gossip in this thread the focus should stay on whats going on in the court

"Today’s court hearing, which lasted for nearly 12 hours, saw only one witness: an investigative police officer chosen by the prosecution to present dozens of video clips culled from the footage of 300 CCTV cameras installed in the vicinity of the crime. The officer, Pol.Col. Cherdpong Chiewpreecha, said that only 100 of those cameras were operational, and 22 of them showed the movements of Witheridge and Miller on their final night."

So 12 hours seems long to me , they probably spent a long time going through the footage from all the CCTV cameras , and for the first time we've been told that 100 of around 300 cameras were working that night.

Only 1 witness yesterday , I expect more witnesses today. This is a lot more interesting than listening to conspiracy theorists on TV,

Here's some news, however this is not intended for JTJ as he only goes by official news whatever that is

[Rykbanlor]

MikeENZ, who apparently provided some insights about life on KT and KP for the TIME Magazine "The Sceptic Isle" story casts doubt on the possibility that the son of an influential figure on the sceptic island could have committed or been involved in the rape and murders because he would have had too much too lose.

Personally I have no idea who committed the crimes and don't wish to point the finger of suspicion at anyone in particular. However, I would like to point out that MikeENZ's theory is inconsistent with the observed behaviour of the sons of wealthy and influential figures in Thailand. Without naming names or citing dates, I list from memory some incidents I recall over the years in Thailand.

- The son of an influential politician was alleged to have shot a policeman in the head at point blank range in a disco over an argument about someone stepping on his toe. No conviction.

- The son of a gangster associated with gambling dens in Bangkok shot the nephew of a Thai diplomat in the face non-fatally in a disco in Bangkok after the victim allegedly stepped on his toe. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician became irate when a pick-up truck cut in front of him on a Bangkok street. The pick-up truck was pulled over by bodyguards travelling in another car and the driver was beaten. The politician's son walked towards him and fired a shot that missed. Then he pointed the gun right at his head and pulled the trigger but it failed to fire. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician was pulled over by a traffic cop on Pattanakarn Road in Bangkok for a minor violation and got irate when the cop refused to let him go without booking him. So he pulled out his gun and shot the cop in the face non-fatally. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of an influential politician abducted a police sergeant over an unknown dispute and incarcerated him for 2 or 3 days. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of a billionaire who sells cafeinated sugar water to gullible fools all over the world ran over a police sergeant and dragged him on the car's bonnet for 220 metres before tipping him on the road, ensuring death, if it had not already occurred. Then he attempted to get a family servant to claim responsibility for the crime in his place. He was charged but there has been no attempt to bring him to court and almost certainly the case will be allowed expire under Thailand's ridiculous statute of limitations.

- The son of an influential Isaan politician became irate when he was travelling in was overtaken by a pick-up truck on an isolated country road. He speeded up and overtook the pick-up so that he and at least one of his buddies could fire into the pick-up repeatedly with their illegally carried handguns but missed him completely. The pick-up truck owner, a building contractor, was ready for them and returned fire with his own illegal handgun, killing the politician's son instantly. LOL. The pick-up truck owner was prosecuted.

I could go on but I think this pattern illustrates something in the Thai psyche that MikeENZ obviously failed to learn during his brief stint in Thailand as an illegal worker in tourist resorts. Sons of wealthy and influential people are brought up with a sense of entitlement and impunity which makes them believe they can and have and do whatever they want and never have to face any consequences because Daddy will fix any problems that result. The above list indicates that they are often right. This makes their reflexes different from most less privileged people in Thailand or people living in rule of law jurisdictions, who are more likely to stop short at a point where they should be able to see a possibility of spending many years in prison. Since they don't feel they will have to face the consequences of their actions, they don't see any need to control their flashpoints and, in a country where face is so important, this can lead to some ugly situations. Some of these spoiled brats think nothing of killing some one who accidentally steps on their toe. You can imagine how they would feel if they have been slighted sexually and lost face in front of their buddies and servants.

Another point has been raised by other posters, i.e. why would police go to so much trouble and why would the case be escalated to such a high level to protect a fire dancing drifter, even if he was Thai. In the case of the Katherine Horton murder in Samui, the authorities were happy to arrest and convict two Thai fishermen. No doubt Burmese fishermen would have been preferable but Thai fishermen are only a couple of rungs up the ladder and are also of no consequence, as are Thai fire dancers..

agree completly ! i suspect somebody (one of those disgusting RTP defenders here ? ) impersonate for MikeENZ..... identity spoofing then... crime on TV ????

No, I can confirm that is the real MikENZ. It was just his opinion, which we can agree or disagree with. As I said before I don't believe the fire dancer scenario, but he is making his point from an honest conviction and from what I know of him he is an intelligent guy and is equally passionate about miscarriages of justice and social issues in his home and adoptive countries.

[JLCrab]

Well we'll see although I remember reading a few posts back that you felt it was time for them to get tough.

At any rate I'll play the disgusting RTP defender as suggested in the post above:

That long post described Thai-on-Thai mostly road rage. This isn't road rage and it isn't a Thai-on-Thai 'friendly murder'.

Edited July 23, 2015 by JLCrab

[catsanddogs]

Todays local report (Norfolk) -

The prosecution says it was this CCTV footage that led them to the alleged murderers.

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/court_in_hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_watches_video_of_couple_s_last_evening_1_4164406

but here it states (3rd Oct) http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2779106/Thai-police-confirm-DNA-samples-taken-Koh-Tao-murder-victims-match-two-Burmese-workers-confessed-killing-British-pair.html

Identified only by the names ‘Win’ and ‘Saw’, the men were held after it was revealed that their DNA matched samples collected from the victims’ bodies.

So was it the CCTV or the DNA that led to the 'alleged murderers'?

Glad to see today's story is using the terms 'Alleged murderers' and 'Suspected murderers'. A step in the right direction.

[PaPiPuPePo]

MikeENZ, who apparently provided some insights about life on KT and KP for the TIME Magazine "The Sceptic Isle" story casts doubt on the possibility that the son of an influential figure on the sceptic island could have committed or been involved in the rape and murders because he would have had too much too lose.

Personally I have no idea who committed the crimes and don't wish to point the finger of suspicion at anyone in particular. However, I would like to point out that MikeENZ's theory is inconsistent with the observed behaviour of the sons of wealthy and influential figures in Thailand. Without naming names or citing dates, I list from memory some incidents I recall over the years in Thailand.

- The son of an influential politician was alleged to have shot a policeman in the head at point blank range in a disco over an argument about someone stepping on his toe. No conviction.

- The son of a gangster associated with gambling dens in Bangkok shot the nephew of a Thai diplomat in the face non-fatally in a disco in Bangkok after the victim allegedly stepped on his toe. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician became irate when a pick-up truck cut in front of him on a Bangkok street. The pick-up truck was pulled over by bodyguards travelling in another car and the driver was beaten. The politician's son walked towards him and fired a shot that missed. Then he pointed the gun right at his head and pulled the trigger but it failed to fire. No prosecution.

- The son of an influential politician was pulled over by a traffic cop on Pattanakarn Road in Bangkok for a minor violation and got irate when the cop refused to let him go without booking him. So he pulled out his gun and shot the cop in the face non-fatally. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of an influential politician abducted a police sergeant over an unknown dispute and incarcerated him for 2 or 3 days. No charges pressed after a financial settlement.

- The son of a billionaire who sells cafeinated sugar water to gullible fools all over the world ran over a police sergeant and dragged him on the car's bonnet for 220 metres before tipping him on the road, ensuring death, if it had not already occurred. Then he attempted to get a family servant to claim responsibility for the crime in his place. He was charged but there has been no attempt to bring him to court and almost certainly the case will be allowed expire under Thailand's ridiculous statute of limitations.

- The son of an influential Isaan politician became irate when he was travelling in was overtaken by a pick-up truck on an isolated country road. He speeded up and overtook the pick-up so that he and at least one of his buddies could fire into the pick-up repeatedly with their illegally carried handguns but missed him completely. The pick-up truck owner, a building contractor, was ready for them and returned fire with his own illegal handgun, killing the politician's son instantly. LOL. The pick-up truck owner was prosecuted.

I could go on but I think this pattern illustrates something in the Thai psyche that MikeENZ obviously failed to learn during his brief stint in Thailand as an illegal worker in tourist resorts. Sons of wealthy and influential people are brought up with a sense of entitlement and impunity which makes them believe they can and have and do whatever they want and never have to face any consequences because Daddy will fix any problems that result. The above list indicates that they are often right. This makes their reflexes different from most less privileged people in Thailand or people living in rule of law jurisdictions, who are more likely to stop short at a point where they should be able to see a possibility of spending many years in prison. Since they don't feel they will have to face the consequences of their actions, they don't see any need to control their flashpoints and, in a country where face is so important, this can lead to some ugly situations. Some of these spoiled brats think nothing of killing some one who accidentally steps on their toe. You can imagine how they would feel if they have been slighted sexually and lost face in front of their buddies and servants.

Another point has been raised by other posters, i.e. why would police go to so much trouble and why would the case be escalated to such a high level to protect a fire dancing drifter, even if he was Thai. In the case of the Katherine Horton murder in Samui, the authorities were happy to arrest and convict two Thai fishermen. No doubt Burmese fishermen would have been preferable but Thai fishermen are only a couple of rungs up the ladder and are also of no consequence, as are Thai fire dancers..

Exactly the same points I made earlier, (which I bolded in your post), good job providing specific examples. If you look at other countries where justice is extremely unevenly applied (rather than just pretty unevenly lol), mainland China being a good one, you'll find many, many similar examples.

And not to overstate the point but I personally experienced this kind of atmosphere of impunity on KT more than any other place I've been, not just in Thailand, but anywhere, and this with locals much lower down on the totem pole, so I can just imagine how it would be getting in the sights of the higher-ups.

[JLCrab]

Sarah Yuen is freelance correspondent based in Thailand -- not a reporter for the local newspaper. www.sappest.com