Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[JLCrab]

Thank C&D -- I'll take it because at the time I made that statement there were a bunch of people on here who were saying that the H-guy was so powerful that he'll have people swearing to things that are just vapor and that I just don't understa-a-a-and how things are what they are here in the Kingdom.

[JLCrab]

< snip >

Wow..and so it goes on. 'The Perfect Case'. There has not been one day that the incompetence has not been to the fore. I keep saying it. The best defense is the prosecution. There hasn't been one! And I repeat one credible piece of evidence in 5 days! now to remotely show the B2 were involved. That must be a record for any trial in any country. They have 8 days to present their case and 5 have gone with nothing...zilch! Incredible and very very sad. It seems I'm repeating myself but it's just mind blowing.

You maybe keep saying it but I maybe said it straight-out before you did and there were a lot of folks who did not agree at the time and said that the Prosecution and their supporters (meaning you-know-who) would be able to pull it off anyway.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/804973-capital-punishment-concerns-raised-over-thai-backpackers-murder-case/page-27#entry9216377

The big question still is, even with the farcical case presented against them, will the judges find the Burmese kids innocent?

Finding them Not Guilty would be sufficient.

[JohnThailandJohn]

4 days now and still not heard or seen anything coming from the court and prosecution that remotely proves the B2 are guilty..

Sketchy at best corrupt by RTP and authorities looking even more likely. This whole episode is so sad. Still no undeniable conclusive issue presented by police that can't be challenged or discounted.

Not that there is any evidence or proof the state will provide that will be offered that will not be discounted by many here, it would be unusual for a Prosecutor to start the case with their strongest evidence. The early days are about building up the foundation of the case and various facts that will (should) be tied together later.

Also. you are not there to hear everything and the people mainly volunteering information to the press are on the defense side and the news outlets covering the court case are sharing very little about the actual proceedings. Not like we are going to here gavel to gavel coverage here being the proceeding are in Thai and Thailand where trials are not covered like the west or often video taped like the US. Kind of normal for something to be big news when it happens, when there is an arrest and then when there is a verdict and then less coverage, but still some, when it comes to the appeals and commutations.

I haven't even seen the court case being covered in the Thai Language news and if it is it isn't considered much of news. Again this is SOP here but it will make the news again once there is a disposition but it won't be to the extend of the original coverage up through the arrest.

You leave me flabbergasted !!

For 10 months you have based guilt on the Burmese DNA being found in Hannah, for you nothing else has mattered.

Now you claim the DNA isn't really that important ? Being as the prosecution are working up to the big game winner.

What do you think the game changer will be ? The blind cleaner blowing his cover by claiming he can really see after all, as he walks out of the court and gets hit by a bus.

Your being flabbergasted seems to be your own doing as nothing in my post nor the post I am responding even mentions DNA and certainly nothing even hints at it not being the key to how this case will be decided or it not being important. All the post is stating is prosecutions typically tell a story and before you bring in your strongest evidence, such as finger prints on a gun that was used to kill somebody, you first bring in the the fact the victim is dead (such as crime scene) and the gun and the cause of death and then match the gun to being the murder weapon, then you tie it all in a nice bow by bring in the finger prints. What would be atypical is to start off with the fingerprint evidence before you establish things like where the gun came from and even if it is the murder weapon. You can apply the same logic to how DNA and other evidence tying a victim to the crime is generally presented.

I certainly hope you are not looking at the case the same way you read the post you are responding because your conclusions are very strange in terms of believing things are being said that were not or even slightly hinted at ... in fact it is like a completely different conversation.

[englishoak]

Lets get one thing straight,

There isnt a police murder unit alive that wouldnt think to look at cctv of the pier where the only boat leaving the island a few hrs after a murder before being locked down. Especially when they know it exists and they have it to look at.

Not one

This isnt incompetence so much as cooperative and will-full negligence with intent to obstruct justice..

And still this disgrace of a headline story the most international high profile double murder case in decades languishes in the samui sub forum ..... 30 pieces of silver springs to mind.

[catsanddogs]

4 days now and still not heard or seen anything coming from the court and prosecution that remotely proves the B2 are guilty..

Sketchy at best corrupt by RTP and authorities looking even more likely. This whole episode is so sad. Still no undeniable conclusive issue presented by police that can't be challenged or discounted.

Not that there is any evidence or proof the state will provide that will be offered that will not be discounted by many here, it would be unusual for a Prosecutor to start the case with their strongest evidence. The early days are about building up the foundation of the case and various facts that will (should) be tied together later.

Also. you are not there to hear everything and the people mainly volunteering information to the press are on the defense side and the news outlets covering the court case are sharing very little about the actual proceedings. Not like we are going to here gavel to gavel coverage here being the proceeding are in Thai and Thailand where trials are not covered like the west or often video taped like the US. Kind of normal for something to be big news when it happens, when there is an arrest and then when there is a verdict and then less coverage, but still some, when it comes to the appeals and commutations.

I haven't even seen the court case being covered in the Thai Language news and if it is it isn't considered much of news. Again this is SOP here but it will make the news again once there is a disposition but it won't be to the extend of the original coverage up through the arrest.

You leave me flabbergasted !!

For 10 months you have based guilt on the Burmese DNA being found in Hannah, for you nothing else has mattered.

Now you claim the DNA isn't really that important ? Being as the prosecution are working up to the big game winner.

What do you think the game changer will be ? The blind cleaner blowing his cover by claiming he can really see after all, as he walks out of the court and gets hit by a bus.

Your being flabbergasted seems to be your own doing as nothing in my post nor the post I am responding even mentions DNA and certainly nothing even hints at it not being the key to how this case will be decided or it not being important. All the post is stating is prosecutions typically tell a story and before you bring in your strongest evidence, such as finger prints on a gun that was used to kill somebody, you first bring in the the fact the victim is dead (such as crime scene) and the gun and the cause of death and then match the gun to being the murder weapon, then you tie it all in a nice bow by bring in the finger prints. What would be atypical is to start off with the fingerprint evidence before you establish things like where the gun came from and even if it is the murder weapon. You can apply the same logic to how DNA and other evidence tying a victim to the crime is generally presented.

I certainly hope you are not looking at the case the same way you read the post you are responding because your conclusions are very strange in terms of believing things are being said that were not or even slightly hinted at ... in fact it is like a completely different conversation.

Sinking ship. Nighty night.

[ffaarraanngg]

Surely to god there is, surely the autopsy that was done in the UK would have taken such samples, the chances of every last drop of semen being cleaned away must be zero.

I still have this question please.

Did anyone ever hear a report that Scotland Yard had a sample of the rapist's DNA from Hannah's body after it was returned to the UK? I ask because what else could forensics compare the boys' or the killers' DNA with that would be reliable? Who would trust the BiB to say "This is it"?

1. Without a proven chain of evidence from anyone to Hannah, who would know?

2. DNA in Hannah only proves sex, it doesn't prove rape much less murder at that moment. Sex could have happened earlier.

3. DNA on the murder weapon would have proven something, but only who handled it.

4. I recall reports that Hannah and David were cleaned and embalmed. Embalming can destroy "DNA. Samples generally considered unsuitable for testing with current techniques include embalmed bodies."

Does Scotland Yard have something to compare with to find out who if anyone had sex with Hannah?

I can't figure out what good all of this DNA talk is doing.

Thanks.

Scotland Yards finest proved to be incompetent and on a 2 week taxpayer funded jolly and have nothing to do with this case.

As the sperm would be inside her its possible embalming chemicals would not destroy DNA.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-embalming-affect-the-decay-rate-of-DNA

While it's easy to see why you might come to those conclusions because of lack of information coming from the UK police there's actually no way at this stage whether that conclusion is justified. We would have to know what or indeed was there anything they were allowed to examine and remember it has been stated that they were only allowed to observe. We don't know what observations they were privy too.

There was a DNA specialist with the UK party but again we don't know the level he was allowed to be involved. I suspect with what's coming out in court they didn't get to see anything that might remotely undermine the prosecutions case. My opinion only.

As for the usefulness of the DNA it's only relevant in conjunction with other evidence and provided it's been collected and stored and tested correctly. This quite clearly as I and many others have stated wasn't the case.

As the other poster says all the DNA samples reported to be tested don't confirm that anybody committed the murder only that possible had something to do with the rape and possible there on the beach. As a addition the chance of samples inside a body wouldn't be likely as its reported that a condom was used. Of course we only have the RTP version of events off this. This is of course reliant on the earlier mentioned fact that if DNA was collected etc correctly. I don't see how any and I repeat any of the DNA can be used in this trial and I'm sure in the UK or other civilised countries it would already be discounted and probably the case would not have even made it to court. Up to now if I read the situation correctly as of 5 days of court there's no evidence of the B2 been remotely guilty and it seems unless a rabbits coming out of a hat that the RTP case rests on DNA which was compromised and even then doesn't prove murder anyway.

The police have released statements under the Freedom of Information act i believe.

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

Short of CCTV footage of the event taking place this would be enough evidence to get a conviction.

In any civilised nation this crime would be simple to successfully get a conviction, its a pity Thailand and its citizens are several hundred years from reaching such enlightenment.

[NeverSure]

Scotland Yards finest proved to be incompetent and on a 2 week taxpayer funded jolly and have nothing to do with this case.

As the sperm would be inside her its possible embalming chemicals would not destroy DNA.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-embalming-affect-the-decay-rate-of-DNA

The reports when Scotland Yard was in Thailand was they they were allowed only to "observe" and not participate and they went home empty handed. Even as an American I know those people's reputation and they appeared to be frustrated. I believe they would have solved the case if allowed to proceed.

Cheers.

[simonuk]

Lets get one thing straight,

There isnt a police murder unit alive that wouldnt think to look at cctv of the pier where the only boat leaving the island a few hrs after a murder before being locked down. Especially when they know it exists and they have it to look at.

Not one

This isnt incompetence so much as cooperative and will-full negligence with intent to obstruct justice..

And still this disgrace of a headline story the most international high profile double murder case in decades languishes in the samui sub forum ..... 30 pieces of silver springs to mind.

I'd also like to know why this isn't in the main news and is considered a provincial story.

[cookee68]

• Miller is then seen walking back towards Chopper Bar in a visibly drunken state, according to Pol.Col. Cherdpong. Miller can be seen punching the air with his right arm.
• Miller arrives at Chopper Bar around 1:40 am to find it closed for the night. He then walks east into an alley, stopping to buy a pair of sunglasses at a convenience store, which he hangs on his shirt.
• CCTV footage shows Miller turning back towards AC Bar again, which had a small crowd of foreign tourists gathered outside its entrance. Pol.Col. Cherdpong said he believes Miller was looking for a place to drink and was told by tourists that AC Bar is open late. He is seen entering the bar at around 2 am.

From Ibtimes:

David, 24, is filmed on two different cameras some half an hour apart. In the first taken at 1:27am he is alone, walking back through the busy street to the hotel where he was staying. When what appears to be a local man crosses his path they briefly shake hands as if they know each other, but then he keeps walking.

In the second piece of film, taken some 30 minutes later at 1:56am from the opposite direction of the same street, David is seen walking with two other Westerners, a man and a girl not thought to be Ms Witheridge. None of the other people have been positively identified. The film was obtained by Sky News.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-hannah-witheridge-4297320

On the CCTV shown in the above link David is seen at 1.56am walking down a street seemingly chatting to a group of people.Why is there no mention in the policeman's report of David walking down the street chatting with this group of people? Policeman says David entered AC bar around 2am so this was only a couple of minutes after David is with these people chatting. Who are they are what do they know? Would they be able to verify that David was in a 'visibly drunken state' ? Doesn't look in a drunken state from where I'm sitting. Also, as pointed out on another forum by an astute poster - is the policeman referring the the high five with the Asian man in the video when he says David is seen 'punching the air'?

This is why a defence team must have access to all the "material" evidence including "all" the footage from cctv cameras (not just what the prosecution has filtered out and presented in court) and all physical evidence including material used in DNA tests , both sides must be allowed to select and show what they believe will help their respective arguments in court.

Also, if the prosecution present dna tests or phone records of other people (not the accused) to the court in their case - the defence team must be given access to those also, it is as simple as that

The more i read, the more i am convinced that the RTP are attempting to manipulate evidence for their own gain.

one of my points above applies to court cases and judicial process the world over and is fundamental

If either defence or (in this case) prosecution introduce evidence and testimony that includes someone who is not directly involved in the case (nomsod) then that testimony and any claimed evidence must be presented to the (in this case) the defence for scrutiny, that means the prosecution are now obligated to hand over all dna material and tests plus the phone records relating to Nomsod

They introduced it, now it is an official part of these proceedings...........or it should be if the Thai system is anything close to international standards

It isn't that's why the defence team don't have a copy, and the camera at the back of the ac bar I believe was wiped as someone of importance left at the back door too, straight onto the beach, and possibly returned via the same back door, just my opinion, hence the no camera footage

[NeverSure]

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

That's really not the case. DNA is "circumstantial evidence" meaning that the circumstances are that the person's DNA was there. It isn't for instance eyewitness testimony (which can be even less reliable).

Circumstantial evidence can prove nothing or can be damning. In this case I don't see how any western court would convict on only semen which doesn't prove where and when that happened. I think it takes something additive which I haven't heard of.

In Thailand it seems people can get convicted or let go based on who they are aren't without the rule of law.

Cheers

[Whyamiandwhatamidoinghere]

You have no evidence of any information the murdered couples families have received so your assertion that they know more is pure speculation. So why dont you heed your own advice and stop speculating.

Do you suspect they lied or were deceived or are just ignorant? I tend to believe they have no motive to lie and have a real concern in wanting the truth and in fact have taken advantage of all resource available to them including their embassy, UK Police, who were here and to investigate if their was any reason to suspect a cover-up was happening, and the UK Medical Examiner. So no reason for me to doubt their below statements that were shared after UK Police returned and met with them

"There is a great deal of detail and vast areas of investigative work which has been shared with us," Witheridge's family said in a statement."

"We would like to stress that as a family we are confident in the work that has been carried out into these atrocious crimes."

"From what we have seen, the suspects have a difficult case to answer. The evidence against them appears to be powerful and convincing."

You are starting to repeat yourself jtj. Maybe you need to take a break from this story. It seems like the majority of the posts on these murders are from you. Get some sleep because you are having hallucinations and dementia.

[StealthEnergiser]

I thinks it's time the media contacts the PM for statement .

Saturday 11 October 2014

Thai PM defends investigation into Britons’ murder

Prayuth Chan-ocha says correct culprits have been caught, after Burmese president demands fair trial for suspects

"Nobody would dare catch the wrong person because this is a case of big international interest.”

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/oct/10/burma-fair-trial-thailand-backpacker-murders

[BeautifulPain]

Well a smoking gun needs to be produced that connects the B2, if its not DNA ( which lets be honest is looking very dubious at the moment ) maybe its a murder weapon ( The Hoe ) this is now even more dubious, as it seems they dont have any DNA evidence connecting the B2 to the hoe. Perhaps some of the B2's clothing; Not looking great so far but I do believe they have something like this to produce. They have no motive and no witnesses to the actual crime ( unless they have kept them under lock and key ) The police force had the B2 re-enact the crime when it was obvious they were been told what to do, even if some claim they were not, the footage of said re-enactment shows the B2 committing the crime in a different manner to current theory put forth by prosecutors. I dont think the missed checking of CCTV or other lack of detective work unrelated to the B2 will hold much sway with the judges because it only points to incompetence, coupled with sloppy, unprofessional and alleged fabricated evidence on the B2 however it paints a telling picture.

Even for the most staunch RTP defenders, its hard to deny they have massive holes. Taking the stand and sprouting baseless conjecture is absurd. " We have no reason to believe they were followed from the AC bar " - Any lawyer/barrister worth his salt would tare statements like this to shreds ( given the chance ) It would appear they cannot even collude together, with officers giving conflicting reports of that to their colleagues on the stand. All of which after being informed to go away and reassess the case they have put together.

I have seen some comments alluding to the fact that in many other countries this would have been thrown out, I also stated the same. But instead let me offer a different scenario; The accused are some higher up or respected Thai citizens - Would this trial still be allowed to continue ?

If I am honest I don't think NS has anything to do with these disgusting crimes, maybe people connected to him did, its hard to argue some things dont point to that. I think if NS was complicit something undeniable would have surfaced. Certain aspects in relation to his laywers/familys behaviour has been questionable but that could be for a variety of reasons which I am not informed enough to dissect.

Sean is an interesting character I have first hand accounts of him allegedly been involved with some illegal past times on Koh Tao. He may know more than what he said but it doesnt make what he may know fact. It could well be gossip he was told. I think he is or was a troubled individual who sprouted some pretty damming accusations which so far have no weight. Did he really know David as well as he pertains to? Did he meet him or even intend to? Perhaps he was in some other deep stuff on Koh Tao and seen it as his way out.

Anyways rant over, I just hope justice if brought upon whoever was responsable for this tragic loss of life, along with some small peace for all familys involved.

[Nigeone]

Surely to god there is, surely the autopsy that was done in the UK would have taken such samples, the chances of every last drop of semen being cleaned away must be zero.

I still have this question please.

Did anyone ever hear a report that Scotland Yard had a sample of the rapist's DNA from Hannah's body after it was returned to the UK? I ask because what else could forensics compare the boys' or the killers' DNA with that would be reliable? Who would trust the BiB to say "This is it"?

1. Without a proven chain of evidence from anyone to Hannah, who would know?

2. DNA in Hannah only proves sex, it doesn't prove rape much less murder at that moment. Sex could have happened earlier.

3. DNA on the murder weapon would have proven something, but only who handled it.

4. I recall reports that Hannah and David were cleaned and embalmed. Embalming can destroy "DNA. Samples generally considered unsuitable for testing with current techniques include embalmed bodies."

Does Scotland Yard have something to compare with to find out who if anyone had sex with Hannah?

I can't figure out what good all of this DNA talk is doing.

Thanks.

Scotland Yards finest proved to be incompetent and on a 2 week taxpayer funded jolly and have nothing to do with this case.

As the sperm would be inside her its possible embalming chemicals would not destroy DNA.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-embalming-affect-the-decay-rate-of-DNA

While it's easy to see why you might come to those conclusions because of lack of information coming from the UK police there's actually no way at this stage whether that conclusion is justified. We would have to know what or indeed was there anything they were allowed to examine and remember it has been stated that they were only allowed to observe. We don't know what observations they were privy too.

There was a DNA specialist with the UK party but again we don't know the level he was allowed to be involved. I suspect with what's coming out in court they didn't get to see anything that might remotely undermine the prosecutions case. My opinion only.

As for the usefulness of the DNA it's only relevant in conjunction with other evidence and provided it's been collected and stored and tested correctly. This quite clearly as I and many others have stated wasn't the case.

As the other poster says all the DNA samples reported to be tested don't confirm that anybody committed the murder only that possible had something to do with the rape and possible there on the beach. As a addition the chance of samples inside a body wouldn't be likely as its reported that a condom was used. Of course we only have the RTP version of events off this. This is of course reliant on the earlier mentioned fact that if DNA was collected etc correctly. I don't see how any and I repeat any of the DNA can be used in this trial and I'm sure in the UK or other civilised countries it would already be discounted and probably the case would not have even made it to court. Up to now if I read the situation correctly as of 5 days of court there's no evidence of the B2 been remotely guilty and it seems unless a rabbits coming out of a hat that the RTP case rests on DNA which was compromised and even then doesn't prove murder anyway.

The police have released statements under the Freedom of Information act i believe.

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

Short of CCTV footage of the event taking place this would be enough evidence to get a conviction.

In any civilised nation this crime would be simple to successfully get a conviction, its a pity Thailand and its citizens are several hundred years from reaching such enlightenment.

While I really don't want to dwell on this issue because of the obvious nature of the discussion as another poster as also stated sperm inside doesn't prove murder or even rape. It just proves a link with the DNA sample to someone. It doesn't even prove that there wasn't consent in a coming together prior to the murder. As I say I'm not for one minute saying that happened just using it as an example. Also as I stated before another anomaly is the alleged used condom with sperm inside which has yet to be produced for cross testing. Even that doesn't prove anything as unless a clinical processing of samples is carried out contamination is likely or a plant of DNA is possible. So in my opinion a conviction could never be obtained in even a civilised nation and in fact from what's come out up to now it wouldn't make court.

[StealthEnergiser]

Lets get one thing straight,

There isnt a police murder unit alive that wouldnt think to look at cctv of the pier where the only boat leaving the island a few hrs after a murder before being locked down. Especially when they know it exists and they have it to look at.

Not one

This isnt incompetence so much as cooperative and will-full negligence with intent to obstruct justice..

And still this disgrace of a headline story the most international high profile double murder case in decades languishes in the samui sub forum ..... 30 pieces of silver springs to mind.

I'd also like to know why this isn't in the main news and is considered a provincial story.

This has been a cover up from day one a full investigation byTrusted people from the DSI and the Army should be underway.

Extra criminal charges should be laid once it is clear who these people are starting at the ones that lied about the murder weapon the hoe that was washed of dna .

Included in the investigation should be a couple the RTP defenders on this site to see what they know if they have been truly working with people with connections to cover up a crime and it is very possible that they may be charged also.

[ffaarraanngg]

Scotland Yards finest proved to be incompetent and on a 2 week taxpayer funded jolly and have nothing to do with this case.

As the sperm would be inside her its possible embalming chemicals would not destroy DNA.

http://www.quora.com/How-does-embalming-affect-the-decay-rate-of-DNA

The reports when Scotland Yard was in Thailand was they they were allowed only to "observe" and not participate and they went home empty handed. Even as an American I know those people's reputation and they appeared to be frustrated. I believe they would have solved the case if allowed to proceed.

Cheers.

They picked a dog in this fight ... and the one they assisted happened to be the RTP.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/01/capital-punishment-concerns-hannah-witheridge-david-miller-murder-thailand

Whilst they are clearly competent English police forces are crooked in their own way. I am from a country where the police looked the other way whilst 1000s of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Somalian Muslims rape under-age white girls with full consent of the police,councils, social services and Members of Parliament.

[NeverSure]

While I really don't want to dwell on this issue because of the obvious nature of the discussion as another poster as also stated sperm inside doesn't prove murder or even rape. It just proves a link with the DNA sample to someone. It doesn't even prove that there wasn't consent in a coming together prior to the murder. As I say I'm not for one minute saying that happened just using it as an example. Also as I stated before another anomaly is the alleged used condom with sperm inside which has yet to be produced for cross testing. Even that doesn't prove anything as unless a clinical processing of samples is carried out contamination is likely or a plant of DNA is possible. So in my opinion a conviction could never be obtained in even a civilised nation and in fact from what's come out up to now it wouldn't make court.

I can see how DNA would be important to the defense to exonerate the defendants, but I can't see how it could convict them. I haven't heard how there's a link between what should have been proven to be in Hannah's body and the boys even if that would convict of murder. I understand the murder weapon was cleaned.

I agree a conviction wouldn't be there in a civilized country where all of the burden is on the prosecution to a high standard. We don't declare people "innocent" but rather "not guilty" which is legalese for "guilt not proven beyond any reasonable doubt".

There is a lot of reasons to doubt guilt, and where we come from just one good reason to doubt guilt would set a person free for good.

Cheers.

[bunglebag]

Andy Hall summarising the morning's court session in Koh Tao murder trial - 2015-07-22

Source: Heidi Anna

Andy Halls says CCTV footage shows Hannah entering the AC bar at 1am and David entering the bar at 2am.He says this is the last footage available of them. He says the CCTV footage does not link the B2 to the crime and that this afternoon the court will look at CCTV footage of the man seeing running around 4am who the prosecution say is Win.

Now this is actually progress, finally we can hear something from the court instead of the ongoing BS in this thread. Less BS and more facts from the court please.

The running man , who is he ? The TV experts in here thinks it's the headman son. Lets see if the court agree.

Andy Hall also says there is CCTV of 3 Burmese on the beach with the guitar. What isn't said is that there's CCTV of when and in which direction they each left the beach. I maybe wrong and there's more CCTV to be shown of them on the beach, but If there's not I would find this very very suspicious!

Regarding CCTV of the running man, I understood Nom said it was him, when a lot of people thought it was the headman's son. I wonder why he would have said that?

Ah here it is. Andy Hall mentions the cctv of the Burmese playing guitar on the beach. Everyone should watch this.

Initially he says they saw cctv footage of them going down to the beach.

He also says the question needs to be raised as to why there is no cctv footage from inside the AC bar.

Then another reporter asks more about the footage of the accused and Andy Hall replies that there is footage of them on the beach playing guitar and smoking.

When asked more about Hannah and David he replies that there is no footage of them after they entered the bar at 1am and 2am respectively and goes on to say that doesn't mean that none exists but that the prosecution is not scheduled to present any further footage and he then says it's clear that what goes into the prosecution document is not necessarily all the evidence that they have, it's simply what the choose to present to the court.

I'm guessing one of the reporters may have been for the Mirror:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-cctv-showed-6120448

"The prosecution said Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun emerged as potential suspects after they were spotted on CCTV that night playing guitar, smoking and chatting with friends on the same beach where the murders took place."

If this is the same spot that the cigarettes were found and one of those cigarettes had Hannah's DNA on it then surely she would have appeared on the cctv at some point?

[happy Joe]

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

That's really not the case. DNA is "circumstantial evidence" meaning that the circumstances are that the person's DNA was there. It isn't for instance eyewitness testimony (which can be even less reliable).

Circumstantial evidence can prove nothing or can be damning. In this case I don't see how any western court would convict on only semen which doesn't prove where and when that happened. I think it takes something additive which I haven't heard of.

In Thailand it seems people can get convicted or let go based on who they are aren't without the rule of law.

Cheers

Blah blah blah ...

You can say what you want here, but if the police found your DNA in the body of my daughter raped and murdered it would be better for your security to stay in prison.

But continue to distract us with your hazy theories.

[englishoak]

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

That's really not the case. DNA is "circumstantial evidence" meaning that the circumstances are that the person's DNA was there. It isn't for instance eyewitness testimony (which can be even less reliable).

Circumstantial evidence can prove nothing or can be damning. In this case I don't see how any western court would convict on only semen which doesn't prove where and when that happened. I think it takes something additive which I haven't heard of.

In Thailand it seems people can get convicted or let go based on who they are aren't without the rule of law.

Cheers

Blah blah blah ...

You can say what you want here, but if the police found your DNA in the body of my daughter raped and murdered it would be better for your security to stay in prison.

But continue to distract us with your hazy theories.

They havnt, they have claimed to have and that is all.

It would be better if you bothered to read the whole case before believing a statement that is yet to be proven or verified independently..

66 posts im not convinced you have even a clue about this case at all, if you had youd stop talking out your backside and puffing your chest out like your some kind of rambo... you aint.

As for Police ? no police work involved here, just cover ups, people that wear badges sure but i wouldnt think of mistaking a real policeman or investigation to what passes as one in Thailand.

[bunglebag]

Lets get one thing straight,

There isnt a police murder unit alive that wouldnt think to look at cctv of the pier where the only boat leaving the island a few hrs after a murder before being locked down. Especially when they know it exists and they have it to look at.

Not one

This isnt incompetence so much as cooperative and will-full negligence with intent to obstruct justice..

And still this disgrace of a headline story the most international high profile double murder case in decades languishes in the samui sub forum ..... 30 pieces of silver springs to mind.

Digging back through some old news stories there is a Daily Mail article from 20-9-14 which contains quite a bit about how the police's main theory at this time is that they suspect the two victims were killed by fishermen who swam ashore and then fled in a boat.

Surely this at least would have been a good time to review the cctv footage if not before?

The article mentions up to 10 fishing boats in the bay but I thought I heard/read back at the time that fishing boats were moored on the other side of the island that night due to the wind direction. Confusing, or a poor memory!

There were some boats anchored off Sairee beach in the background of the crime scene pictures though. Are these tour/dive boats or some such? Would anyone typically reside on these overnight (officially or unofficially?)

[JLCrab]

Judgment and Orders ［The (Thai) Criminal Procedure Code Section 182] After the trial is over, a judgement or order shall be given in accordance with the merits of the case. A judgement or order shall be read in open Court either on the day the trial is over or within three days from such date. If there are reasonable grounds, the Court may postpone the reading to a later date, but the grounds for the postponement shall be written down in the memorandum.

http://www.unafei.or.jp/english/pages/RMS/No92_10PA_Sudti-Autasilp.pdf

So when a verdict is to be announced, the Judge or Judges must present a narrative of the proceedings to support their decision if a decision has indeed been reached. I have read that the reading in Court of the Judge's report may last for hours before the verdict is actually announced or is evident from the Judge's discourse.

[happy Joe]

If there was sperm inside this lady after she had been raped and murdered thats pretty conclusive evidence to link such a person to both crimes.

That's really not the case. DNA is "circumstantial evidence" meaning that the circumstances are that the person's DNA was there. It isn't for instance eyewitness testimony (which can be even less reliable).

Circumstantial evidence can prove nothing or can be damning. In this case I don't see how any western court would convict on only semen which doesn't prove where and when that happened. I think it takes something additive which I haven't heard of.

In Thailand it seems people can get convicted or let go based on who they are aren't without the rule of law.

Cheers

Blah blah blah ...

You can say what you want here, but if the police found your DNA in the body of my daughter raped and murdered it would be better for your security to stay in prison.

They havnt, they have claimed to have and that is all. ...

This is your version.

I do not believe in the conspiracy theory involving the highest authorities of the country to save a son of.

As for reading thousands of delirious pages about this, take Pity.

[boomerangutang]

Do people on here honestly think that my account's been hacked or something? What do I need to do - post an image of me holding a newspaper for proof of life or something?

Ego wirte, ergo ego existo (Latin for: "I post, therefore I exist")

How about a photo of you standing next to Donald Trump, holding his replacement hairpiece on a silver platter - in case an ill-wind blows his way.

[bunglebag]

http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/hannah_witheridge_murder_trial_defence_team_hope_to_re_test_crucial_forensic_evidence_1_4164482

The senior police officer investigating the killing of Norfolk student Hannah Witheridge in Thailand said today that he had not investigated rumours that she had been involved in an argument with a Thai youth on the night of her death.

Police Colonel Cherdpong Chiewpreecha said he was aware of rumours the 23-year-old from Hemsby had an altercation inside the AC Bar, while she was there with friends. But he said neither he, nor his officers, actively followed up that line of enquiry.

The police colonel admitted that CCTV footage of the port, which may have shown who boarded the early morning boat from Koh Tao to the mainland immediately after the deaths was never checked.

There was an audible gasp in the court when the police officer said his officers did not believe the killer would have taken that boat.

The man Ms Witheridge was rumoured to have an altercation with at the bar was seen on CCTV in Bangkok later on the morning of September 15, and has denied having anything to do with the murders.

He gave DNA samples in front of reporters to try to quell rumours that he was involved.

But in court today the senior investigating officer said he had never received the results of those DNA tests, or indeed any documentation from Bangkok regarding any interview with the man. He said he had been promised a report but it never arrived.

Defence lawyers representing the two Burmese suspects, Wei Phyo and Zaw Lin, both aged 22, questioned the police colonel intensively about all the CCTV footage which the court had studied for more than 12 hours yesterday.

They questioned the fact that the suspects were not dressed in clothes similar to those of the potential suspects on CCTV footage, and that the murder weapon itself was not tested for DNA evidence.

The Police Colonel, in both instances, said he did not believe it was relevant.

He also would not confirm if any DNA evidence had ever been sent to Singapore for independent testing. He said he had no knowledge of that.

Incredible

[boomerangutang]

I thought RTP would at least do a somewhat crafty job of cover-up and shielding the H's people, but they're falling all over themselves. 'Didn't look at CCTV of the beach/dock that morning, because decided it wasn't important.' That could be the most incriminating item thus far (indicating RTP's mishandling of the case) .....among a long list of screw-ups.

What's next? RTP and prosecution saying it won't be possible to obtain DNA from Nomsod, Mon, and their tough-guy buddies, because their DNA is 'all-used up' Nothing would surprise me.

[boomerangutang]

Yes, they should investigate every lead, but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't.

They collected the footage, so evidently they checked out the pier but for some reason didn't consider it worthwhile to review the footage from the cameras, maybe they just established that no boats left from the pier during that time by interviewing people there; it's up to the defense to ask for the reasons behind that decision and see if they stand up to scrutiny.

AleG asserts: ".....but just because they didn't review the CCTV footage it doesn't mean they didn't."

Boomers; I would ask you to explain that assertion, but I'm not into self-affliction this morning.

[BritTim]

Andy Hall also says there is CCTV of 3 Burmese on the beach with the guitar. What isn't said is that there's CCTV of when and in which direction they each left the beach. I maybe wrong and there's more CCTV to be shown of them on the beach, but If there's not I would find this very very suspicious!

Regarding CCTV of the running man, I understood Nom said it was him, when a lot of people thought it was the headman's son. I wonder why he would have said that?

Ah here it is. Andy Hall mentions the cctv of the Burmese playing guitar on the beach. Everyone should watch this.

Initially he says they saw cctv footage of them going down to the beach.

He also says the question needs to be raised as to why there is no cctv footage from inside the AC bar.

Then another reporter asks more about the footage of the accused and Andy Hall replies that there is footage of them on the beach playing guitar and smoking.

When asked more about Hannah and David he replies that there is no footage of them after they entered the bar at 1am and 2am respectively and goes on to say that doesn't mean that none exists but that the prosecution is not scheduled to present any further footage and he then says it's clear that what goes into the prosecution document is not necessarily all the evidence that they have, it's simply what the choose to present to the court.

I'm guessing one of the reporters may have been for the Mirror:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/thailand-beach-murders-cctv-showed-6120448

"The prosecution said Zaw Lin and Win Zaw Tun emerged as potential suspects after they were spotted on CCTV that night playing guitar, smoking and chatting with friends on the same beach where the murders took place."

If this is the same spot that the cigarettes were found and one of those cigarettes had Hannah's DNA on it then surely she would have appeared on the cctv at some point?

I think we will find that the CCTV footage shown is of the Burmese kids on a different part of the beach. If not, the defense would have gone crazy asking for the rest of the footage from that camera.

[Dogmatix]

Its a great pity there are no investigative reporters or Tv Programs

like Panorama ,here in Thailand, I guest the job is just too dangerous,

for anyone to engage in,

regards Worgeordie

yes I said the same thing several days ago on this very thread

Thailand has criminal defamation laws to make sure that investigative reporting will never happen.

[JLCrab]

I thought RTP would at least do a somewhat crafty job of cover-up and shielding the H's people, but they're falling all over themselves. 'Didn't look at CCTV of the beach/dock that morning, because decided it wasn't important.' That could be the most incriminating item thus far (indicating RTP's mishandling of the case) .....among a long list of screw-ups.

What's next? RTP and prosecution saying it won't be possible to obtain DNA from Nomsod, Mon, and their tough-guy buddies, because their DNA is 'all-used up' Nothing would surprise me.

According to this current schedule, the earliest scheduled ferry off Koh Tao is 9:30 AM

http://www.kohtaoonline.com/timetable.htm