Koh Tao: Trial opens for 2 accused of killing British tourists

[Equalizer]

I have not had an opinion till now on this case. Now I do and hope these judges have common sense.

I have no idea as I said in my last post how a condom is part of the evidence and if a proper DNA test was done I am 99% certain

it will come up without and DNA of the Myanmar suspects.

I have been a journalist for more than 30 years. covering many rape/murder scenes. Never in my reporting history has a condom been used by someone who is

raping and murdering someone. That type of mind set does not say " OH I am going to have sex with this person I will murder later so I should where a condom" or the other mind set is

" I Had better wear a condom so I don't leave my DNA"

Unless it is a boyfriend/girlfriend. husband/wife situation I don't think the mastermind of this murder will use a condom .

This whole case smells I hope these guy guilty or not have good lawyers

I have not had an opinion till now on this case. I have no idea as I said in my last post how a condom is part of the evidence. I can see why you are confused!!!!

[Rykbanlor]

this is the hoe that was inspected by forensics - it is not in the same place as the one with all the blood and there is not as much blood on it as the one in the garden bed.

hoe4.jpg

Open your eyes! This is the same hoe.

Said Snoop to Dre, over beers at Hooters.

(sorry, couldn't resist, not to be disrespectful of the larger topic here).

[boomerangutang]

I am sorry but I disagree with you about the cigarettes butts. They were found at the crime scene and matched to the ones where the accused were sitting on a log playing a guitar. Why would anyone take a DNA Sample of a Cigarette Butt from where the accused already admitted to be sitting?

I don't think that's true. I think the cig butt was found where the boys were playing guitar, nearly 60 or so meters from the crime scene. The supposed significance of that is it appears Hannah's DNA from saliva was found on the butt, along with someone elses. It's all moot anyway, because RTP conveniently lost the cig or else they can't derive DNA from it.

They bought cigarettes at a 7-11 store before the murders. The CCTV shot of them riding a motor bike shot is a totally different thing.

One of the three young'uns bought cigs at the 7-11 and it was neither of the two defendants. But I don't even know why I'm debating this issue. The cig butt is not important. there are many issues which are more pressing, such as:

>>>> phone records of all persons of interest

>>>> was Nomsod on Nok Air Monday morning?

>>>> can we see video of NS entering the apartment, prior to the time he supposedly left at 9:30 am?

>>>> Why do RTP not share potentially crucial DNA typing with Brit experts?

>>>> Why does Mon say its himself in the Running Man video, when it's obviously not.

......and so many more issues..... gone unanswered / undetected / unfollowed, because RTP are in cohoots with the H's family.

[Rykbanlor]

Hi guys. I've been a lurker on this forum for ages, and spent a year in Thailand last year. Hi everyone.

I've just registered an account because I feel so strongly about this, please stop beating around the bush!

Of course, what events led to the tragic events will probably never be known. But please stop messing about and admit what we do know!

Mr X's family run the bar. Mr X's family member took offence to losing face to a faramg over a girl.

The western girl and the supporting western guy were killed, the girl was raped beforehand.

Can we all just stop sugar coating this? They were both killed by Mr X's family, who in turned stiched up a couple of lowely Burmese.

The corruption of the case goes to the top, and is made ever more evident by subsequent events on the island.

The Burmese 2 will either get found guilty and be punished by death, or get found innocent and be punished by death in a different way.

The poor families of the deceased will suffer forever, unsure wether justice has been done.

The family of Mr X will/will not remain on the island.

We dont need to keep talking about the <deleted> ups at the court, because we know why these <deleted> ups are happening.

I feel desperately sorry for the families, this is a war they will never win and it wasn't thier fault, nor was it the deceased, nor was it the Burmese.

I'm really upset by this whole thing.

The sad and upsetting truth, yes. You're right, theres little point in trying to analyze any of it really, sometimes it comes out compulsively though.

What continues to puzzle me is the dogged insistence of the handful of posters who consider the RTP beyond reproach. I shouldn't really respond.

You guys crack me up.

"We know the truth" - No you don't. Not unless you were there or have access to all the evidence and have interviewed all witnesses.

The notoriety of the RTP, their corruption coupled with inefficient, ineffective unprofessional behavior is always going to obstruct justice. They follow the opportunities in a case, not pursue justice. Add to that the propensity to save face, lie, contradict, claim to know things, change statements, keep quiet when a superior overrules you, not challenge anything official, etc etc. and the chances of ever establishing what really happened are remote.

There is more interest to find a convenient verdict that suits themselves.

There are a considerable number of open questions and evidence that have not been answered or followed up, and never will be.

That doesn't mean the accused are innocent or guilty, nor does it mean anyone else is guilty. A real investigation answering all the questions, following up all the evidence, and presenting all the facts would be needed to establish that. And it will never happen.

Maybe the accused are guilty. Maybe the are innocent. Maybe they were involved but so were others. Maybe they took no part but witnessed what happened.

All speculative because I really don't know. And neither can you. Unless you have evidence you want to share with us all.

You have a fair point Baerboxer, I won't deny that. I can't claim that I know the truth. But I do believe 100% in my own opinion of what happened, speculation or not. Your impartiality is noted and respected.

[GOLDBUGGY]

Goldbuggy you made a faux pas. You typed marital arts...........I think you meant martial arts. It struck me as being humorous in such a tragic story and evolving outcome. No offense meant.

None taken. I am typing on my old Lap Top and my keys stick sometimes. I also don't see so well without my glasses, which I don't like wearing much.

[stephenterry]

I am sorry but I disagree with you about the cigarettes butts. They were found at the crime scene and matched to the ones where the accused were sitting on a log playing a guitar. Why would anyone take a DNA Sample of a Cigarette Butt from where the accused already admitted to be sitting?

I don't think that's true. I think the cig butt was found where the boys were playing guitar, nearly 60 or so meters from the crime scene. The supposed significance of that is it appears Hannah's DNA from saliva was found on the butt, along with someone elses. It's all moot anyway, because RTP conveniently lost the cig or else they can't derive DNA from it.

They bought cigarettes at a 7-11 store before the murders. The CCTV shot of them riding a motor bike shot is a totally different thing.

One of the three young'uns bought cigs at the 7-11 and it was neither of the two defendants. But I don't even know why I'm debating this issue. The cig butt is not important. there are many issues which are more pressing, such as:

>>>> phone records of all persons of interest

>>>> was Nomsod on Nok Air Monday morning?

>>>> can we see video of NS entering the apartment, prior to the time he supposedly left at 9:30 am?

>>>> Why do RTP not share potentially crucial DNA typing with Brit experts?

>>>> Why does Mon say its himself in the Running Man video, when it's obviously not.

......and so many more issues..... gone unanswered / undetected / unfollowed, because RTP are in cohoots with the H's family.

Only one bone of contention - that of Nok air. There are early morning planes leaving both Samui and Surat Thani that would arrive in BKK in time for Nomsod to make it to his exam, even if he got held up in BKK traffic. It's a tight schedule, but possible. Keep open all of your options.

The phone records are key, but never used by the RTP to confirm Nomsod's whereabouts. Logical conclusion - they showed he wasn't in BKK - or just as damning, they weren't even looked at..

[phuketandsee]

A picture is worth what?

Remember this press conference?

1414785018021_wps_24_Bangkok_Thailand_30th_Oct.jpg

Now ask yourself how the head man of a pissant little island gets the top cop of the entire country to sit beside him for an announcement that his son's (long refused) DNA test has come back negative.

You really think DNA (or any other "evidence" for that matter) has any relevance here?

Well said, brother.

Maybe a lot of money changed hands. It would be churlish to refuse an invitation, wouldn't it?

From the above: "Now ask yourself how the head man of a pissant little island gets the top cop of the entire country to sit beside him ..."

He hired the right lawyer.

Huh? What lawyer? Surely you are not suggesting he hired the chief of police. How could that possibly happen in Thailand?

[animatic]

Let us ALSO not forget that a week ago the

Head Surat Thani Prosecutor was murdered in his home.

The person with the most knowledge of the evidence and it's provenance died with his throat slashed, sitting in a chair in his home.

Ostensibly a robbery gone wrong, but oh so convenient for this case, if you want to direct a verdict based on fear and intimidation on all levels... Not just scaring off of a translator....

But that (unrelated though it is) doesn't fit in with the conspiracy theorists and would only benefit the 2 Burmese defendants....

Not if he was leaning toward dropped charges or aquital early in the proceedings.

It surely would benefit the boys, but also open the investigation back up. Someone DID do it.

Head prosecutor for the province would have been informed from day one in all matters,

if he was not going to go along with the party line, for whatever reason, like integrity (don't laugh),

or he didn't believe he could pull off the deal and tried to back out or just not go along....

Remember who is in the soup if these boys get off scot free, the next guys in line to be looked at.

[Johnniey]

There is no trial. After living here 29 years and 11 months, I know and accept the way things are done.

[phuketandsee]

this is the hoe that was inspected by forensics - it is not in the same place as the one with all the blood and there is not as much blood on it as the one in the garden bed.

hoe4.jpg

I'm no expert but the blood stains look more consistent with the savage wounds to Heather than the "stab" wounds to the back of David's head. Previous posts on other threads have suggested those were more likely made by a push knife. But, again, I'm no expert. Hopefully Andy Hall has access to some.

[phuketandsee]

As annoyed as the prosecution must be, at their flubs and at seeing their RTP cohorts screwing up thus far - they're still doing ok in the big picture of things. This is my opinion, but here goes: They're not overly concerned about getting a conviction. Though that would be cool, from their perspective, the over-riding concern for officialdom is different. The trial is meant to keep focus on the Burmese, and here's why: The most important aspect of all the shenanigans is to try and keep the Headman's people out of focus. They want no mention of Mon or Nomsod or any of their buddies' possible involvements. Just one of many indications: Nomsod's DNA was not given to Brit forensics.

So, though the road has started out bumpy, Thai officialdom is still on course. Losing some face is not good, but not as bad as allowing the Headman's people to get scrutinized re; their possible involvement in the crime and its cover-up.

Right on again Boomer. As bad as this looks, I would not blame the RTP. They are not calling the shots here. As you have pointed out before, initially they seemed to be on the track of the person most widely believed to be responsible then the local chief of police was suddenly removed and attention focused on the B2

[ABCer]

Baerboxer:

You guys crack me up.

"We know the truth" - No you don't. Not unless you were there or have access to all the evidence and have interviewed all witnesses.

The notoriety of the RTP, their corruption coupled with inefficient, ineffective unprofessional behavior is always going to obstruct justice. They follow the opportunities in a case, not pursue justice. Add to that the propensity to save face, lie, contradict, claim to know things, change statements, keep quiet when a superior overrules you, not challenge anything official, etc etc. and the chances of ever establishing what really happened are remote.

There is more interest to find a convenient verdict that suits themselves.

There are a considerable number of open questions and evidence that have not been answered or followed up, and never will be.

That doesn't mean the accused are innocent or guilty, nor does it mean anyone else is guilty. A real investigation answering all the questions, following up all the evidence, and presenting all the facts would be needed to establish that. And it will never happen.

Maybe the accused are guilty. Maybe the are innocent. Maybe they were involved but so were others. Maybe they took no part but witnessed what happened.

All speculative because I really don't know. And neither can you. Unless you have evidence you want to share with us all.

-----------------------

Yes, nobody knows the truth. You are right.

The problem is two guys (guilty or not) are about to be convicted of a major crime under circumstances when

- Not only "there are reasonable doubts"

- But there is no "proof of their guilt" that can stand up to any scrutiny

- On the basis of preamble that "no Thai could commit such a crime"

- In an atmosphere of "not a piece of material evidence that couldn't have been tainted"

Is the modus operandi of the Justice in the rest of the World different for Thailand or not? - this is at the heart of the whole issue!

[DrTuner]

Have to say, one of the most entertaining CSI threads in a while. Unfortunately the outcome is already clear, the odds are like 1000-1. The only thing worth betting is how many times the RTP will contradict themselves before they finally hang the two innocent fellas.

[Fat Haggis]

There is one question that no one seems to have asked yet.

Is there any proof the Burmese bought L&M cigarettes that night ?

Or are we just taking the word of the RTP again ?

One would imagine a computer till would be able to tell which brand was bought and when.

I can answer that for you.

All 3 where captured on CCTV in the 7-11 Store buying alcohol and these L&M Cigarettes on the night of the murders and before the murders happened. They then went to the beach and sat on a log and drank and played their Guitar, which they themselves admitted to. Also 1 of the Migrant Workers, left early (1 am), and he testified to that.

The Police knew early on in the investigation that there were 3 people on the beach that night playing a guitar and singing. Nobody could identify them though, as all they knew about them then was that they were singing a Country Western Song in English. They were not considered suspects then and were only wanted for questioning.

The significance of the L&M Cigarettes Butts is that they were found on the beach only meters away from Hannah's Dead Body. Since Hannah and David both did not smoke, and they were the only cigarettes Butts their, they concluded that this may tie them to the murdered(s). So they preformed DNA Samples on them.

It was never really stated why, but someone got the idea to test the cigarette butts by the log, and where the guys on the beach were playing their guitar. When that DNA Matched the ones on the Crime Scene the 3 wanted for questioning where now prime suspects. Again to my knowledge, there was no details on how they were able to narrow down the search to these 3 guys, when again to my knowledge nobody could positively identify them their. But somehow they did and the accused admitted to being their at that time.

They were brought in for questioning and when they said they did not know anything about the murders and where not anywhere near the Crime Scene they were arrested on "Immigration Violations" and held in Custody. In the mean time they were further interrogated and an ongoing investigation was started as into their residence, any potential witnesses, and DNA testing to see if it Matched Hannah's DNA Sperm Sample. They confessed after the match of DNA Samples.

Could all this have been planted? Anything is possible. But then you would have to wonder about this to. Why these 2? I mean they had questioned at least 60 Migrant Workers just on the first day, so why not one of them. Half the Island is full of Migrant Workers. One media put the number at 2,000. So with all this media pressure to solve the case why not take one of them instead. Surely not everyone else has a good Alibi. Especially where the crimes took place early in the morning.

But no, the police wait a full two more weeks under intense media pressure and selected these 2 accused, out of a possible 2,000. But here is the kicker! It just so happens that 1 of the accused had David Millers Cell Phone.Since many assume that the Police had beaten a confession out of them he does not say he took the cell phone from Davids Dead Body or His Belongings. No! He says he found it on the beach that night.

Oh! What an Extraordinary Coincidence! That the 2 accused that was selected randomly out of a possible 2,000 others, and who the Police waited an extra 2 weeks to arrest them, just so happened to find the Murder Victims Cell Phone on the beach on the night murders.

Up to You!

.

You can answer nothing for me. You are a clown and have no idea what you are talking about.

Like I said earlier, he is making a lot of assumptions ?

[stephenterry]

Hi guys. I've been a lurker on this forum for ages, and spent a year in Thailand last year. Hi everyone.

I've just registered an account because I feel so strongly about this, please stop beating around the bush!

Of course, what events led to the tragic events will probably never be known. But please stop messing about and admit what we do know!

Mr X's family run the bar. Mr X's family member took offence to losing face to a faramg over a girl.

The western girl and the supporting western guy were killed, the girl was raped beforehand.

Can we all just stop sugar coating this? They were both killed by Mr X's family, who in turned stiched up a couple of lowely Burmese.

The corruption of the case goes to the top, and is made ever more evident by subsequent events on the island.

The Burmese 2 will either get found guilty and be punished by death, or get found innocent and be punished by death in a different way.

The poor families of the deceased will suffer forever, unsure wether justice has been done.

The family of Mr X will/will not remain on the island.

We dont need to keep talking about the <deleted> ups at the court, because we know why these <deleted> ups are happening.

I feel desperately sorry for the families, this is a war they will never win and it wasn't thier fault, nor was it the deceased, nor was it the Burmese.

I'm really upset by this whole thing.

The sad and upsetting truth, yes. You're right, theres little point in trying to analyze any of it really, sometimes it comes out compulsively though.

What continues to puzzle me is the dogged insistence of the handful of posters who consider the RTP beyond reproach. I shouldn't really respond.

You guys crack me up.

"We know the truth" - No you don't. Not unless you were there or have access to all the evidence and have interviewed all witnesses.

The notoriety of the RTP, their corruption coupled with inefficient, ineffective unprofessional behavior is always going to obstruct justice. They follow the opportunities in a case, not pursue justice. Add to that the propensity to save face, lie, contradict, claim to know things, change statements, keep quiet when a superior overrules you, not challenge anything official, etc etc. and the chances of ever establishing what really happened are remote.

There is more interest to find a convenient verdict that suits themselves.

There are a considerable number of open questions and evidence that have not been answered or followed up, and never will be.

That doesn't mean the accused are innocent or guilty, nor does it mean anyone else is guilty. A real investigation answering all the questions, following up all the evidence, and presenting all the facts would be needed to establish that. And it will never happen.

Maybe the accused are guilty. Maybe the are innocent. Maybe they were involved but so were others. Maybe they took no part but witnessed what happened.

All speculative because I really don't know. And neither can you. Unless you have evidence you want to share with us all.

You have a fair point Baerboxer, I won't deny that. I can't claim that I know the truth. But I do believe 100% in my own opinion of what happened, speculation or not. Your impartiality is noted and respected.

Right now, on the balance of probability, the last three days of RTP incompetence and possible attempts to thwart the defence from testing their DNA samples by stating they were lost or finished, indicates to me that their case against the B2 is flimsy at best and suspect at worst. In which case the scales of whether the B2 are guilty or innocent, leans more to the innocent balance.

Whether that will change as the trial moves on, is debatable.

[DM07]

2 things:

1) I am baffled since the beginning of this case about the importance of the cigarette- bud.

Has anyone ever seen, what happens to a piece of cigarette in even a light breeze? It could well be, that the cigarette was smoked by one of the B2...but unless it was absolutely windstill in that night....I doubt it actually means they were NEAR the scene of the crime. They could have been 100s of meters away, snipped the bud away....it lies there for a few minutes, I breeze comes and pushes it nearer and nearer to the crime-scene...

2) I know it sounds harsh, but the argument "the families found the evidence convincing" or similar rubbish means ZERO!

First of all: we don't know, what evidence was presented to them! The obviously extremely flawed RTP- version? Give a break! Even IF they found the evidence convincing: who gives a sh1t? I have all the sympathy in the world for them, but they are obviously not really unbiased, are they? Even more ridiculous, I found the argument, that we should stop discussing this case, in order to give them peace! They can have peace, after the case is closed! Hopefully with an outcome that really provides peace and wipes out each and every possibility, that "closure" is misplaced with "revenge"! Until that day, there are 2 more lifes on the line, that are not less worth than the lives of the murder- victims!

So that is not a valid point in this discussion!

[Mooner]

I saw this last night being share on Facebook. Seems to raise some fair questions if you ask me:

11701210_103564179990370_4126026349112522261_n.jpg

I wonder if General Panya Mamen could be called to ask why he made this statement and what evidence did he have to make it?

[rufanuf]

27 Pages of commentary and a lot of arguments. But some really basic questions not being debated. Call me old fashion, but just look at these young lads faces, do they look like the faces of a couple of cold blooded murderers to you?

Why are they being defended by an international defence team? Of course it's obvious to anyone with an ounce of sense these guys are be fitted up to save Thailand's face. They are completely innocent and outside parties know it, and are trying to save them and justice process.

Its so sad this side of Thailand's culture. When are they going to wake up to themselves and start educating their children differently, so we have decent respectable upstanding Thai Adults? It borders on insanity the way this culture behaves sometimes.

So you know how a killer looks like ? Even a person with the most innocent face can be a murderer. They are 23 years old and adults.

Its not just the way they look Balo....but yes they look like a couple of normal young lads, and yes physcopaths have a certain look and these lads don't have it. But its not just about the way they look. Combine this with the whole "plauseability" of the case being presented and its ridiculous.

[Rykbanlor]

I saw this last night being share on Facebook. Seems to raise some fair questions if you ask me:

11701210_103564179990370_4126026349112522261_n.jpg

I wonder if General Panya Mamen could be called to ask why he made this statement and what evidence did he have to make it?

That will never happen. The higher-ups pulled him off, and like a good cop he does as told. He's obviously a competent detective, but probably not a moral crusader. Although who could blame him, as I think that would earn him a fast ticket to a clumsy suicide.

[Oziex1]

Many posters looking at this case from many angles, understandable given the oddities of the investigation and now the manner in which the trial is conducted.

My angle is simple and goes way back to the very beginning, a police investigation hot on the heels of another party, investigators taken off the case. New investigators installed, beginning an endless stream of ludicrous statements and questionable investigative methods, culminating in the arrest of the Burmese kids.

They have clearly tried too hard to save face, Thailand's reputation?? and in doing so have exposed themselves to fair accusations from within and outside of Thailand of corruption, incompetence and injustice in their Police and Political systems.

[sammygood]

what is the latest update? don't want to read 40 pages of comments

[Oziex1]

what is the latest update? don't want to read 40 pages of comments

It's all in the 40 pages.

[JLCrab]

To the guys in the overly-nested comments above, he hired the right lawyer with the right connections who was able to set up the meeting.

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-157849-0-48068800-1436535976_thumb.jpg

[lvr181]

Foreign media misunderstand everything about Thailand

[phuketandsee]

To the guys in the overly-nested comments above, he hired the right lawyer with the right connections who was able to set up the meeting.

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-157849-0-48068800-1436535976_thumb.jpg

It wasn't a "meeting" it was a press conference - big difference.

But you are dead on about the "right connections" and I doubt any lawyer was required to organize the chief's presence.

[JLCrab]

To the guys in the overly-nested comments above, he hired the right lawyer with the right connections who was able to set up the meeting.

http://static.thaivisa.com/forum/uploads/monthly_07_2015/post-157849-0-48068800-1436535976_thumb.jpg

It wasn't a "meeting" it was a press conference - big difference.

But you are dead on about the "right connections" and I doubt any lawyer was required to organize the chief's presence.

Yes -- press conference. Your doubt is noted.

But maybe you're right as this is the same guy who supposedly can make one phone call to Nok Air and all the day's flight records and passenger manifests will disappear.

[Basil B]

I note this is not a trial buy a Jury, just think in Thailand being called for jury service could be more lucrative than winning the top prize in the lottery.

[elgordo38]

Stuff all the amateur Sherlocks - it doesn't matter who did it any more the whole thing is incapable of producing a fair trial no matter WHO you think did it .....trying to pick at evidence and theories is just schoolboy fantasy....it isn't even relevant...any trial of anyone now can be nothing more than a sham

unless they have the DNA taken from the rape. Then they can reexamine the samples taken on the sweep of people and even retest a few who were never really tested.

A possible scenario:

When Hannah's body was returned to the UK, DNA samples were taken. Foreign DNA was discovered, maybe from traces of sperm. This was subsequently compared to the DNA of the B2 and found not to match (it would be an extremely simple matter to obtain the DNA of the B2 even if they were in jail or possibly the DNA of the parents).

This could very well account for the "discrepancy" and is extremely "significant".

As the defense, this is obviously something you would not want to bring to light too early on in the trial (poker players will understand).

I do believe the "delay" have other purposes as this isn't a poker game, destroying the ONLY incriminating evidence the RTP claims they have as early as possible would make the judge look incredibly stupid to let the trial continue, so I'm guessing the defense has another agenda.

The DNA is the ONLY real evidence according to the RTP, so why would the defense let this charade go on further?

I have no clue but to believe that the defense lawyers unfortunately don't have any DNA evidence from the UK forensics, but I'm only speculating.

The longer the trial prolongs, the more shadows will be presented and the whole bogus trial will be clouded.

I think this now you see it now you don't game must end. The court to save face and bring this trial back to some degree of fairness must allow the defence to independently retest the evidence. If they do not agree to this well its all cut and dried from here on out. It should be retested outside of Thailand by a impartial reputable lab. This trial has become a sham missing witnesses defendants claim they were beaten to obtain a confession police stating that people should be ashamed in defending these obviously guilty young boys and it goes on and on. Thailand in many ways wants to play on the world stage but only as an actor and not as a purveyor of the truth. You just cannot have it both ways.

[SupermarineS6B]

(The missing evidence)

Oh now i understand........ yesterday it was lost, and now it's not, it's just that "You don't understand" Sounds like something very similar to what my girlfriend would say......... I'm not sleeping with your brother, it's just that "you don't understand"............. Ah ok, everythings fine then................ Imagine being in this situation ? i feel sorry for the two accused........ What a mess......... i'm waiting for the BIB to finally realise that this isn't going to blow away....... I'm waiting for the " The BIB flees the scene of the crime statement" Too hot to stick around.......

[Larry001]

The comical farce and corruption continues in this wonderful country