Thai politics: Rice stocks from subsidy scheme must be liquidated soon

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE
Rice stocks from subsidy scheme must be liquidated soon
SASITHORN ONGDEE

BANGKOK: -- THE VALUE of the overflowing state rice stockpiles of around 16 million tonnes, a legacy of the previous government's flagship subsidy scheme, was recently estimated at only Bt200 billion - if they are sold.

"We expect to receive around Bt200 billion from releasing 16 million tonnes of rice in the state's stockpile, compared with the cost of Bt600 billion," Chutima Bunyapraphasara, permanent secretary at the Commerce Ministry, said earlier.

But the figure is far from what has been spent on it.

As is widely known, past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade. More than a half of that happened under the administration of former prime minister Yingluck Shinawatra.

Unfortunately, people pay too little attention to the massive losses suffered by the country through the rice-subsidy schemes launched by many governments, who used them as a populist policy to gain votes, and seem to care more for news like 14 students being arrested or the break-ups of movie and pop stars.

The National Rice Policy Committee, chaired by Prime Minister General Prayut Chan-o-cha, at its meeting on July 1 agreed to release all the state's leftover rice stock of 15.46 tonnes, as of the end of June, through bidding.

The rice stockpile was divided into three main groups.

Group 1 represents A and B grade rice, totalling 9.7 million tonnes, and will be open for bidding for packing in 2-kilogram bags for local markets and export.

Group 2, categorised as C grade or sub-quality rice, is unfit for eating. This group has about 4.6 million tonnes for auctioning, for use as a raw material in ethanol production.

Group 3, which is classified as rotten rice and unfit for use as material for ethanol production, totals 1.29 million tonnes, and will be open for bidding for use as fuel in biomass power plants to generate electricity.

There is scepticism whether the rice classified as "sub-quality" is really what it is. Who are the ethanol producers who will take part in the bidding for "sub-quality" rice? Will there be any kind of collusion or corruption in the bidding process?

Rice typically gives ethanol output greater than other materials used for production. According to one estimate, about 1.3 million tonnes of rice will yield around 400 million litres of ethanol.

The committee meeting on July 1 instructed completion of bidding this month for some portion of the C grade rice in Group 2, and all of the decomposed rice in Group 3, before the new crop enters the stockpile.

More than that, the government needs to speed up inviting bids for "sub-quality" rice and the rotten rice, at least to ensure that it would not hurt the country's reputation as one of the world's quality rice producers.

Of course, the rice in groups 2 and 3 must be ridden with weevils, which is the main factor that makes rice stocked in the state's granaries rotten and decomposed. Instead of burning such bad-quality rice, it would be more useful to send it to the ethanol plants and biomass power plants to be converted into fuel and electricity.

Apart from that, it will also save the government's spending on the rice inventory under the pledging scheme, which costs about Bt46 million per day.

What if the new lots of rice from the harvest season that enter the state's granaries are contaminated with weevils from the old rotten stock?

This would certainly be a worrying factor and could hurt exports, as Thai rice may lose its reputation, and this could depress the selling price.

Source: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/politics/Rice-stocks-from-subsidy-scheme-must-be-liquidated-30264140.html


-- The Nation 2015-07-10

[Robby nz]

Where do the authors get this "Enter the state's granaries" ?

The state will no longer be buying rice now that the pledging scheme is over, all the new seasons rice will be sold in the usual way through the rice traders and buyers.

With the exception of the normal emergency supply of the countries staple grain (in this case rice) held by most countries which is held in proper purpose built conditions.

If this normal emergency supply has been included in the top grade rice that is being sold off then it will need to be replenished but the silo's in which it was held would not be effected by weevil, contamination or other deterioration factors.

It is quite likely that this supply has been sold as it is normal practice to rotate stocks to ensure freshness and in this instance to get the best price possible.

However; the article is correct, get rid of the stuff, particularly the bad, as quickly as possible for the longer it is kept the higher the storage costs and therefor the lower the eventual return.

[jcisco]

Don't jump the gun quite yet Thailand is facing 24 months of potential low farm output, might want consider the drought. Would be quite an egg on your face moment if Thailand has to import rice, and would political implosion for the Junta.

[Bannum opinions]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[dinooz]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

The term "anti democrats" appears in many if not all of your posts.To me an "anti democrat" is someone opposed to the Democrat party ie. ptp and the reds, so all your ramblings thus far have been critical of the ptp,reds.I am just confused, are you sure you don't mean "anti democracy" ?

[Tatsujin]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

I find your postings to be a little confusing with all the anti-this and self-serving that ... you're obviously not a big fan of the current "Government" and the "truths" they are telling about the rice scam ... so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow? That the 16 million tonnes of rice is all of premium grade quality that hasn't been tampered with? Or was your point something else?

[Bannum opinions]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

I find your postings to be a little confusing with all the anti-this and self-serving that ... you're obviously not a big fan of the current "Government" and the "truths" they are telling about the rice scam ... so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow? That the 16 million tonnes of rice is all of premium grade quality that hasn't been tampered with? Or was your point something else?

".....so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow?"

Yes.

If a truly independent, non-political inquiry concurred, using terms-of-reference agreed to by all sides, then I would accept.

Until that happens, I believe everything these anti-democrats say is suspect. They have a Political ax to grind. It is in their interest to discredit an elected Govt. rooted in their underlying anti-populism ideology.

Within an adversarial political environment, no data generated by one side is valid, unless confirmed independently. I am not like so many, who accept one side of such an adversarial system as gospel. Everything they say is self-serving, and needs to be taken 'with a grain of salt"....Such is the nature of the beast.

They certainly were not about to subject their analysis and data to the electorate.

That alone contextualizes their stuff.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[Tatsujin]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

I find your postings to be a little confusing with all the anti-this and self-serving that ... you're obviously not a big fan of the current "Government" and the "truths" they are telling about the rice scam ... so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow? That the 16 million tonnes of rice is all of premium grade quality that hasn't been tampered with? Or was your point something else?

".....so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow?"

Yes.

If a truly independent, non-political inquiry concurred, using terms-of-reference agreed to by all sides, then I would accept.

Until that happens, I believe everything these anti-democrats say is suspect. They have a Political ax to grind. It is in their interest to discredit an elected Govt. rooted in their underlying anti-populism ideology.

Within an adversarial political environment, no data generated by one side is valid, unless confirmed independently. I am not like so many, who accept one side of such an adversarial system as gospel. Everything they say is self-serving, and needs to be taken 'with a grain of salt"....Such is the nature of the beast.

They certainly were not about to subject their analysis and data to the electorate.

That alone contextualizes their stuff.

OK, I get your mistrust of the current "Government", but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?

After all, they were the ones that paid way too much for the rice, ruined the market, and also had a hand in/allowed the rice to be tainted, created fake deals out of thin air, and (somehow) the people they were supposed to be helping were worse off, whilst the middlemen, owners, millers all made a nice tidy sum.

P.S. - the previous Government also had axes to grind, cheated millions, had no data independently verified, was also even more self-serving and indeed completely ignored the scientific or market evidence that this scam was doomed to fail etc etc. It seems to me that you are so far over to one side of this in terms of being pro-Shinawatra, that you refuse to see or accept any other.

[sammygood]

glad to found out the scam of the centaury worked out just fine for everybody and nobody goes to jail for this

[Srikcir]

Just a point of accuracy.

"As is widely known, past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Should read:

"As is widely known, past and current governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

The junta's myriad cash subsidies and "soft" government loans made to the rice industry has been in the billions of baht as well. And it was the Junta that borrowed funds to pay the outstanding pledged rice collected by the Yingluck regime.

While the Junta may give itself immunity from prosecution for any of its actions, it cannot avoid public accountability of its own failed economic policies to rejuvenate the rice industry.

[pookiki]

At some juncture, it would be refreshing to see the exact statistics, if they exist, on the number of tons or rice paid for under all previous subsidy schemes and the total amount of subsidies minus the value of the rice sold. This would reflect the true amount of subsidies an not just figures for the amount paid farmers.

[halloween]

Just a point of accuracy.

"As is widely known, past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Should read:

"As is widely known, past and current governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

The junta's myriad cash subsidies and "soft" government loans made to the rice industry has been in the billions of baht as well. And it was the Junta that borrowed funds to pay the outstanding pledged rice collected by the Yingluck regime.

While the Junta may give itself immunity from prosecution for any of its actions, it cannot avoid public accountability of its own failed economic policies to rejuvenate the rice industry.

You seem to attach some blame on the junta for borrowing to pay the inherited rice scam debt. Could you explain that for us, preferably with your approved alternative options?

Should they have

1/ told the farmers they wouldn't be paid their electoral bribes

2/ told the farmers to wait until the rice stocks were sold and

2A/ paid bills in order of age

2B/ paid proportionally to amount owed from each sale

3/ Used infrastructure funding to pay inherited debt depriving the country of even more years of development

4/ printed more money

5/ asked the USA to pay it as they supported the previous "democratic" government's actions

6/ some other fantasy land scenario?

If you select 2A or 2B, who pays for the interim storage costs, still a financial burden on the people of Thailand?

[halloween]

At some juncture, it would be refreshing to see the exact statistics, if they exist, on the number of tons or rice paid for under all previous subsidy schemes and the total amount of subsidies minus the value of the rice sold. This would reflect the true amount of subsidies an not just figures for the amount paid farmers.

Would it now? What about the storage costs of many millions of tons of rice, and all the other costs along the way?

What I would like to see is an accurate accounting of how much rice is grown by PTP MPs and their families, and how much land they own rented to rice farmers, followed by mass prosecution for voting on a policy with a clear conflict of interest.

[Fat Haggis]

At some juncture, it would be refreshing to see the exact statistics, if they exist, on the number of tons or rice paid for under all previous subsidy schemes and the total amount of subsidies minus the value of the rice sold. This would reflect the true amount of subsidies an not just figures for the amount paid farmers.

Would it now? What about the storage costs of many millions of tons of rice, and all the other costs along the way?

What I would like to see is an accurate accounting of how much rice is grown by PTP MPs and their families, and how much land they own rented to rice farmers, followed by mass prosecution for voting on a policy with a clear conflict of interest.

Would you sleep better at night knowing that ? And this all effects you because your a rice farmer who isn't making much money now?

I'd personally like to see all the corruption disappear and for the army to return to barracks and stop playing politics and start soldiering again one they're supposed to do, and for the divide that's at the centre of the whole issue disappear, and that Thailand become a strong and united country.

But there's too many conflicts of interest that prevents this.

Just as you'd like to see the see how much PTP MPs own, own, which would be nill as there's no PTP MPs just now, as it's a Military Junta ?

I'd have thought most of them would have connections to rice through basic demographic reasons.

The scam was abysmal, but for all the Billiions frittered away, not much has been accounted for, and not many people have been proven to have directly profited from it yet.

I'd rather see the missing rice and money being located and recovered through asset seizure, than chasing up if PTP members had rice farms.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Fat Haggis

[Robby nz]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

I have already given you links to two independent reports on the rice pledging scheme which I doubt you have read.

There is also the 2013 (PT GOVT) Finance Ministries post audit report referred to in this article : http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Panel-ready-to-clarify-figures-on-rice-losses-30207908.html

If you have trouble understanding reports then perhaps a picture would help you:

Take careful note that the post audit figures do not include the additional losses since that report, that is the loss from the rot in storage and the costs of storage and disposal of the accumulated stockpile.

[halloween]

Would it now? What about the storage costs of many millions of tons of rice, and all the other costs along the way?

What I would like to see is an accurate accounting of how much rice is grown by PTP MPs and their families, and how much land they own rented to rice farmers, followed by mass prosecution for voting on a policy with a clear conflict of interest.

Would you sleep better at night knowing that ? And this all effects you because your a rice farmer who isn't making much money now?

I'd personally like to see all the corruption disappear and for the army to return to barracks and stop playing politics and start soldiering again one they're supposed to do, and for the divide that's at the centre of the whole issue disappear, and that Thailand become a strong and united country.

But there's too many conflicts of interest that prevents this.

Just as you'd like to see the see how much PTP MPs own, own, which would be nill as there's no PTP MPs just now, as it's a Military Junta ?

I'd have thought most of them would have connections to rice through basic demographic reasons.

The scam was abysmal, but for all the Billiions frittered away, not much has been accounted for, and not many people have been proven to have directly profited from it yet.

I'd rather see the missing rice and money being located and recovered through asset seizure, than chasing up if PTP members had rice farms.

Yes, I would sleep better if the army returned to barracks and an elected government was in power, knowing that if they were corrupt they would be going to jail.

And yes, many of the last government's EX-MPs are very connected to rice farming, which is why they should have recused themselves. In real democratic countries, voting for personal gain is recognised as corruption. Here they have turned it into a national sport, apparently with your approval.

[Robby nz]

At some juncture, it would be refreshing to see the exact statistics, if they exist, on the number of tons or rice paid for under all previous subsidy schemes and the total amount of subsidies minus the value of the rice sold. This would reflect the true amount of subsidies an not just figures for the amount paid farmers.

The closest anyone has so far come to that is the 14 page Freedom barometer report which also covers the Abhisit crop insurance scheme :

http://freedombarometer.org/assets/pdfs/Freedom-Barometer-Special-Report-Thailands-Agrarian-Policy.pdf

[Bannum opinions]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

The term "anti democrats" appears in many if not all of your posts.To me an "anti democrat" is someone opposed to the Democrat party ie. ptp and the reds, so all your ramblings thus far have been critical of the ptp,reds.I am just confused, are you sure you don't mean "anti democracy" ?

"To me an "anti democrat" is someone opposed to the Democrat party ie. ptp and the reds,..."

I think you know exactly what I mean, but nice try.

The two sides of the political divide can quite easily be segmented into those that oppose Democracy, and those who want it.

Two significant examples are the Lumpini PDRC directly opposed to Electoral Democracy. Everyone knows their unspoken objectives, under the guise of self-righteously indignant focus on this issue or that.....Than you had the R'song protests of 2010 whose primary objectives were the restoration of an elected Govt. instead of the one that was not.

I think it is also informative to speak about Politics using Political terminology. The anti-Democrats try to avoid this. They are embarrassed by their own designation, so will use the ole' affinity colors as much as possible.

Edited July 10, 2015 by Bannum opinions

[Bannum opinions]

The anti-democrats seem to feel they need to continually assault everyone with their self-serving demonization of this program. Their arrogance prevents them from realizing that most people discount their own fabricated evidence....But some don't...For them, whatever these anti-democrats say must be true.

But why do they feel the need to trot out their version of things, over and over. Basically if we repeat it enough they reason, people will think it is a 'comprehensive truth'...Unfortunately, that is true for some. Continually seeing this analysis of a program within their own frame-of-reference is boring.

"Me thinks they protest too much" Their repetitive spewing out of their self-serving perspective begets repetitive blow-back.

Until we get a balanced, Independent viewpoint, their unbalanced and unhinged rhetoric falls on deaf ears. The ears of those blessed with Political discernment about how adversarial democratic governance functions.

The headline of this story on the topics page namely "Thai Politics....Rice stocks from subsidy scheme........" correctly classifies this story...It is all about "Thai Politics", not an economic program as they frame it.

And of course underpinning it all, is their anti-populism ideology.

I find your postings to be a little confusing with all the anti-this and self-serving that ... you're obviously not a big fan of the current "Government" and the "truths" they are telling about the rice scam ... so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow? That the 16 million tonnes of rice is all of premium grade quality that hasn't been tampered with? Or was your point something else?

".....so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow?"

Yes.

If a truly independent, non-political inquiry concurred, using terms-of-reference agreed to by all sides, then I would accept.

Until that happens, I believe everything these anti-democrats say is suspect. They have a Political ax to grind. It is in their interest to discredit an elected Govt. rooted in their underlying anti-populism ideology.

Within an adversarial political environment, no data generated by one side is valid, unless confirmed independently. I am not like so many, who accept one side of such an adversarial system as gospel. Everything they say is self-serving, and needs to be taken 'with a grain of salt"....Such is the nature of the beast.

They certainly were not about to subject their analysis and data to the electorate.

That alone contextualizes their stuff.

OK, I get your mistrust of the current "Government", but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?

After all, they were the ones that paid way too much for the rice, ruined the market, and also had a hand in/allowed the rice to be tainted, created fake deals out of thin air, and (somehow) the people they were supposed to be helping were worse off, whilst the middlemen, owners, millers all made a nice tidy sum.

P.S. - the previous Government also had axes to grind, cheated millions, had no data independently verified, was also even more self-serving and indeed completely ignored the scientific or market evidence that this scam was doomed to fail etc etc. It seems to me that you are so far over to one side of this in terms of being pro-Shinawatra, that you refuse to see or accept any other.

"but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?"

I'm glad you asked that question.

We really don't know the perspective of the previous Govt. about this, do we.

Yingluck made a speech in parliament defending this program, and submitted stuff to one of the anti-democrat organs, namely the NACC.

The media in their wisdom decided to withhold reportage on Yingluck's presentation. Do you know what she said in Parliament about this?

So not only do we have heaps of anti-democrat self-serving data dished up repeatedly hoping that if they throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. We also have an avoidance of submitting it to the electorate for scrutiny, plus suppression of the perspectives of the previously elected Govt's. representation to Parliament.

And then it is expected that the stuff one side dishes up in an adversarial political system is to be taken as gospel.

Maybe for you, but not me.

[pookiki]

At some juncture, it would be refreshing to see the exact statistics, if they exist, on the number of tons or rice paid for under all previous subsidy schemes and the total amount of subsidies minus the value of the rice sold. This would reflect the true amount of subsidies an not just figures for the amount paid farmers.

The closest anyone has so far come to that is the 14 page Freedom barometer report which also covers the Abhisit crop insurance scheme :

http://freedombarometer.org/assets/pdfs/Freedom-Barometer-Special-Report-Thailands-Agrarian-Policy.pdf

Thanks for the info.

[robblok]

The whole thing would not have been so bad if they had called it what it was a subsidy and budget for it. However the deficit on the national budget would be too much then and they would have had to cut in other vote buying policies and could not have spend as much on other fields where they could skim from.

So they called it self financing, not putting it int he nations budget. So all these red supporters constantly calling it a subsidy are dead wrong.. Because a subsidy is taken into the national budget. ANY government that does such a thing and knows it incurs cost while it was not budgeted (as was the case here) would be negligent at the least.. if not criminal. Any accounting rule in any country state once you know that something is costing money you have to make it public and allocate budget to it or stop the program.

Why do you think the PTP bullied and threatened the government official (not politician) who came out with loss figures on the loss of the program. They wanted to hide these losses in the many trillion loan they were going to make. Then when that loan fell through.. they had no money to pay the farmers.

To make it worse.. YL stepped down without securing a loan before stepping down to pay the farmers. The blockade later when the government was a caretaker government against taking new loans was justified as its illigal for a caretaker government to do so. This was again negligence / a criminal act on the part of YL by not securing the loans. As a result farmers killed themselves as no payment was forthcoming.

All the extra rice that was grown also helped to deplete the dams from water and made the drought we have now worse. And all the rice in the stockpiles made sure the prices of rice stayed low.. screwing the farmers over double.. not getting money and getting less for their rice

Then I am not even talking about the fake goverment to goverment deals where PTP politicans sold rice to the fake companies (saying it was the Chinese government) at prices far lower as what it cost and then selling this rice back into the program making loads of money. (it was allowed to sell rice at lower cost to governments so by acting and forging documents they made it look like the rice was sold to the Chinese government)

This rice then was sold back for the higher price back into the system.. . loads of money for the corrupt PTP politicians

I can't imagine why there are still red supporters who dare to defend this system.. they are either brainwashed or spread lies on purpose.

[Fat Haggis]

Would it now? What about the storage costs of many millions of tons of rice, and all the other costs along the way?

What I would like to see is an accurate accounting of how much rice is grown by PTP MPs and their families, and how much land they own rented to rice farmers, followed by mass prosecution for voting on a policy with a clear conflict of interest.

Would you sleep better at night knowing that ? And this all effects you because your a rice farmer who isn't making much money now?

I'd personally like to see all the corruption disappear and for the army to return to barracks and stop playing politics and start soldiering again one they're supposed to do, and for the divide that's at the centre of the whole issue disappear, and that Thailand become a strong and united country.

But there's too many conflicts of interest that prevents this.

Just as you'd like to see the see how much PTP MPs own, own, which would be nill as there's no PTP MPs just now, as it's a Military Junta ?

I'd have thought most of them would have connections to rice through basic demographic reasons.

The scam was abysmal, but for all the Billiions frittered away, not much has been accounted for, and not many people have been proven to have directly profited from it yet.

I'd rather see the missing rice and money being located and recovered through asset seizure, than chasing up if PTP members had rice farms.

Yes, I would sleep better if the army returned to barracks and an elected government was in power, knowing that if they were corrupt they would be going to jail.

And yes, many of the last government's EX-MPs are very connected to rice farming, which is why they should have recused themselves. In real democratic countries, voting for personal gain is recognised as corruption. Here they have turned it into a national sport, apparently with your approval.

Nope not with my approval or any other farangs approval either, as you see, but keep failing to grasp is that Thais will do what they want, when they want to who they want and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.

I came to Thailand fully aware that I was a nobody, with no say to how things should be done, but you apparently seem to think you have the rights to tell them what to do.

I have an only interested in why farangs seem to thing they're the fountains of all knowledge when it comes to Thais and Thailand and yet how many farangs have you seen assisting the Junta on their day to day running of the country ?

Perhaps you fancy yourself in such a position?

I have a 16 week old Thai daughter who can't even talk and a wife who talks too much, but doesn't like talking about politics, and I wouldn't dream of trying to railroad them into thinking the way I do, they'd hate me with a passion, I spent 8 years being told what to do and when to do it, now I do what I want, within reason, when I want and answer only to myself, all bad decisions are nobody else's fault bar my own.

The problem with Thailand and the social divide is never going to go away, like corruption, it's here to stay. Nothing much you or so or any other farang can do to change it, as we have no say or rights in this country. We are so low, we're not even on the food chain, or pecking order until a crime is committed and then we're a convenience.

In real democratic countries voting for personal gain is seen as corruption? Really ? I've yet to meet a politician from any country let alone one with any democratic process who isn't out for personal gain, a rare breed indeed that person.

That would make your believe PM General Prayuth right up there then along with his hand picked Junta, who will no doubt end up as senators.

The point about the ex MPs being connected to the rice industry is pretty moot, unless they only "aquired" these farms prior to the PTP scheme, if they've been on the family for years/generations then it's not any different really from US senators connected to the oil industry.

At Least we agree about the army returning to barracks, and corruption punished when caught.

Can't wait for the Army to be investigated personally myself, as there's more skeletons to fall out than the human trafficking issue. But they won't be investigated till they lose their power base.

[halloween]

"To me an "anti democrat" is someone opposed to the Democrat party ie. ptp and the reds,..."

I think you know exactly what I mean, but nice try.

The two sides of the political divide can quite easily be segmented into those that oppose Democracy, and those who want it.

Two significant examples are the Lumpini PDRC directly opposed to Electoral Democracy. Everyone knows their unspoken objectives, under the guise of self-righteously indignant focus on this issue or that.....Than you had the R'song protests of 2010 whose primary objectives were the restoration of an elected Govt. instead of the one that was not.

I think it is also informative to speak about Politics using Political terminology. The anti-Democrats try to avoid this. They are embarrassed by their own designation, so will use the ole' affinity colors as much as possible.

But "those who want democracy" also contains at least 2 groups, those willing to accept the steaming heap of crap served up regularly here, and those who think major reforms are needed before a real democracy is achievable.

It seems in your eyes that latter group are actually anti-democracy. I have to wonder why?

[Bannum opinions]

Just a point of accuracy.

"As is widely known, past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Should read:

"As is widely known, past and current governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

The junta's myriad cash subsidies and "soft" government loans made to the rice industry has been in the billions of baht as well. And it was the Junta that borrowed funds to pay the outstanding pledged rice collected by the Yingluck regime.

While the Junta may give itself immunity from prosecution for any of its actions, it cannot avoid public accountability of its own failed economic policies to rejuvenate the rice industry.

"past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Plus I might add, subsidizing Rubber in years past...But that southern crop subsidy is never mentioned...Only rice.

As I understand it, the Democrat Party Govt. of the day threw money at the rubber industry, with a lot of it going up in smoke. Apparently most of it went to the wholesalers and warehouse people after the farmers had already delivered, and were out of the picture.

But do it for Rice farmers elsewhere, and it is the greatest boondoggle the world has ever seen.

Yeah right!

[robblok]

Just a point of accuracy.

"As is widely known, past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Should read:

"As is widely known, past and current governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

The junta's myriad cash subsidies and "soft" government loans made to the rice industry has been in the billions of baht as well. And it was the Junta that borrowed funds to pay the outstanding pledged rice collected by the Yingluck regime.

While the Junta may give itself immunity from prosecution for any of its actions, it cannot avoid public accountability of its own failed economic policies to rejuvenate the rice industry.

"past governments have spent many billions of baht on 15 rice-subsidy projects over the past decade."

Plus I might add, subsidizing Rubber in years past...But that southern crop subsidy is never mentioned...Only rice.

As I understand it, the Democrat Party Govt. of the day threw money at the rubber industry, with a lot of it going up in smoke. Apparently most of it went to the wholesalers and warehouse people after the farmers had already delivered, and were out of the picture.

But do it for Rice farmers elsewhere, and it is the greatest boondoggle the world has ever seen.

Yeah right!

AGAIN

This was not a subsidy.. a subsidy is taken into the budget and not called self financing with no budget for it.

Subsidies are perfectly legal (i might not like them) and they cost money and in turn make it so that the government can't the allocated money on other things.

Here they called it self financing as the budget was stretched already with populist policies and other things they could skim from.

That is criminal and negligent.

But hey.. don't let accounting facts come into play when spreading lies.

[Tatsujin]

".....so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow?"

Yes.

If a truly independent, non-political inquiry concurred, using terms-of-reference agreed to by all sides, then I would accept.

Until that happens, I believe everything these anti-democrats say is suspect. They have a Political ax to grind. It is in their interest to discredit an elected Govt. rooted in their underlying anti-populism ideology.

Within an adversarial political environment, no data generated by one side is valid, unless confirmed independently. I am not like so many, who accept one side of such an adversarial system as gospel. Everything they say is self-serving, and needs to be taken 'with a grain of salt"....Such is the nature of the beast.

They certainly were not about to subject their analysis and data to the electorate.

That alone contextualizes their stuff.

OK, I get your mistrust of the current "Government", but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?

After all, they were the ones that paid way too much for the rice, ruined the market, and also had a hand in/allowed the rice to be tainted, created fake deals out of thin air, and (somehow) the people they were supposed to be helping were worse off, whilst the middlemen, owners, millers all made a nice tidy sum.

P.S. - the previous Government also had axes to grind, cheated millions, had no data independently verified, was also even more self-serving and indeed completely ignored the scientific or market evidence that this scam was doomed to fail etc etc. It seems to me that you are so far over to one side of this in terms of being pro-Shinawatra, that you refuse to see or accept any other.

"but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?"

I'm glad you asked that question.

We really don't know the perspective of the previous Govt. about this, do we.

Yingluck made a speech in parliament defending this program, and submitted stuff to one of the anti-democrat organs, namely the NACC.

The media in their wisdom decided to withhold reportage on Yingluck's presentation. Do you know what she said in Parliament about this?

So not only do we have heaps of anti-democrat self-serving data dished up repeatedly hoping that if they throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. We also have an avoidance of submitting it to the electorate for scrutiny, plus suppression of the perspectives of the previously elected Govt's. representation to Parliament.

And then it is expected that the stuff one side dishes up in an adversarial political system is to be taken as gospel.

Maybe for you, but not me.

Wow. Have you been here long? Don't know the political situation other than what you've heard in the last few years? Or are you married to a girl from the country by any chance?

I'm curious, as you seem to be so anti-everything except what your hero Shinawatra clan does, even though they have consistently shown themselves to be liars, cheats, thieves and corrupt through and through. They have stolen billions from the "people" of Thailand who they claim to represent and love so deeply.

Or is there simply a sale on those rose-tinted glasses that make everything Shinawatra "good" and everything else automatically "bad"?

And to pick up on one of your other posts, you said:

"The two sides of the political divide can quite easily be segmented into those that oppose Democracy, and those who want it."

Really? Other than the fact you are making this a black and white issue which it is far from being, are you seriously of the opinion that the Shinawatra's are champions of democracy? Cos from what I have seen over the years, the only "democracy" the Shinawatra's know about is the one where they get to do whatever the < deleted > they want cos they have the "mandate of the people" ... and a minority of the people at that.

[halloween]

Yes, I would sleep better if the army returned to barracks and an elected government was in power, knowing that if they were corrupt they would be going to jail.

And yes, many of the last government's EX-MPs are very connected to rice farming, which is why they should have recused themselves. In real democratic countries, voting for personal gain is recognised as corruption. Here they have turned it into a national sport, apparently with your approval.

Nope not with my approval or any other farangs approval either, as you see, but keep failing to grasp is that Thais will do what they want, when they want to who they want and there isn't a damn thing anyone can do about it.

I came to Thailand fully aware that I was a nobody, with no say to how things should be done, but you apparently seem to think you have the rights to tell them what to do.

I have an only interested in why farangs seem to thing they're the fountains of all knowledge when it comes to Thais and Thailand and yet how many farangs have you seen assisting the Junta on their day to day running of the country ?

Perhaps you fancy yourself in such a position?

I have a 16 week old Thai daughter who can't even talk and a wife who talks too much, but doesn't like talking about politics, and I wouldn't dream of trying to railroad them into thinking the way I do, they'd hate me with a passion, I spent 8 years being told what to do and when to do it, now I do what I want, within reason, when I want and answer only to myself, all bad decisions are nobody else's fault bar my own.

The problem with Thailand and the social divide is never going to go away, like corruption, it's here to stay. Nothing much you or so or any other farang can do to change it, as we have no say or rights in this country. We are so low, we're not even on the food chain, or pecking order until a crime is committed and then we're a convenience.

In real democratic countries voting for personal gain is seen as corruption? Really ? I've yet to meet a politician from any country let alone one with any democratic process who isn't out for personal gain, a rare breed indeed that person.

That would make your believe PM General Prayuth right up there then along with his hand picked Junta, who will no doubt end up as senators.

The point about the ex MPs being connected to the rice industry is pretty moot, unless they only "aquired" these farms prior to the PTP scheme, if they've been on the family for years/generations then it's not any different really from US senators connected to the oil industry.

At Least we agree about the army returning to barracks, and corruption punished when caught.

Can't wait for the Army to be investigated personally myself, as there's more skeletons to fall out than the human trafficking issue. But they won't be investigated till they lose their power base.

How do people know they are doing the wrong thing unless somebody tells them? I told my family they WILL NOT throw their rubbish out of the car, despite everybody else doing it, and when they went to Oz they understood why. So I will continue to express what I believe is right to anyone who will listen.

I don't expect complete altruism from anybody, but PTP could quite easily have put tonnage/acreage limits on the extent of the rice scam which excluded themselves. They could also put a freeze on rice land rent for the duration. But that would have been more in line with the stated objective rather than the real one, to profit from the policy.

Politicians in real democracies are expected to distance themselves from their business interests (blind trusts, etc) to prevent accusations of conflicts of interest. They also are precluded from external income and gits above a fixed value lest they be seen as bribes.

Why should long term business interests be excluded, they are still a conflict. And the remedy is simple, recuse yourself. Of course that may have seen the policy not enacted, which would have upset the man paying their bribes, with near certain financial repercussions. Boo hoo. Do you think there was much, if any, thought that what they were doing was illegal?

[Bannum opinions]

".....so, do you believe what they are saying is not the truth somehow?"

Yes.

If a truly independent, non-political inquiry concurred, using terms-of-reference agreed to by all sides, then I would accept.

Until that happens, I believe everything these anti-democrats say is suspect. They have a Political ax to grind. It is in their interest to discredit an elected Govt. rooted in their underlying anti-populism ideology.

Within an adversarial political environment, no data generated by one side is valid, unless confirmed independently. I am not like so many, who accept one side of such an adversarial system as gospel. Everything they say is self-serving, and needs to be taken 'with a grain of salt"....Such is the nature of the beast.

They certainly were not about to subject their analysis and data to the electorate.

That alone contextualizes their stuff.

OK, I get your mistrust of the current "Government", but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?

After all, they were the ones that paid way too much for the rice, ruined the market, and also had a hand in/allowed the rice to be tainted, created fake deals out of thin air, and (somehow) the people they were supposed to be helping were worse off, whilst the middlemen, owners, millers all made a nice tidy sum.

P.S. - the previous Government also had axes to grind, cheated millions, had no data independently verified, was also even more self-serving and indeed completely ignored the scientific or market evidence that this scam was doomed to fail etc etc. It seems to me that you are so far over to one side of this in terms of being pro-Shinawatra, that you refuse to see or accept any other.

"but was the previous Government in ANY way more transparent over this rice scam?"

I'm glad you asked that question.

We really don't know the perspective of the previous Govt. about this, do we.

Yingluck made a speech in parliament defending this program, and submitted stuff to one of the anti-democrat organs, namely the NACC.

The media in their wisdom decided to withhold reportage on Yingluck's presentation. Do you know what she said in Parliament about this?

So not only do we have heaps of anti-democrat self-serving data dished up repeatedly hoping that if they throw enough mud at the wall, some of it will stick. We also have an avoidance of submitting it to the electorate for scrutiny, plus suppression of the perspectives of the previously elected Govt's. representation to Parliament.

And then it is expected that the stuff one side dishes up in an adversarial political system is to be taken as gospel.

Maybe for you, but not me.

Wow. Have you been here long? Don't know the political situation other than what you've heard in the last few years? Or are you married to a girl from the country by any chance?

I'm curious, as you seem to be so anti-everything except what your hero Shinawatra clan does, even though they have consistently shown themselves to be liars, cheats, thieves and corrupt through and through. They have stolen billions from the "people" of Thailand who they claim to represent and love so deeply.

Or is there simply a sale on those rose-tinted glasses that make everything Shinawatra "good" and everything else automatically "bad"?

And to pick up on one of your other posts, you said:

"The two sides of the political divide can quite easily be segmented into those that oppose Democracy, and those who want it."

Really? Other than the fact you are making this a black and white issue which it is far from being, are you seriously of the opinion that the Shinawatra's are champions of democracy? Cos from what I have seen over the years, the only "democracy" the Shinawatra's know about is the one where they get to do whatever the < deleted > they want cos they have the "mandate of the people" ... and a minority of the people at that.

Not suggesting you are one Tatsujin - I enjoy the give and take - but given the anti-Thaksin focus of above post, reminds me of what someone who lives on Social Media told me.......Did you know there is a dedicated group of "anti-Thaksin activists" on the loose.......... Zealously devoted and single-minded in their pursuit to demonize him. Seeking to undermine an electoral strength that so threatens the anti-democrats.

I wonder if they are paid and by whom....But I don't know that.....but it seems logical given the ubiquity of them and their omnipresence everywhere on Social Media.

[halloween]

Not suggesting you are one Tatsujin - I enjoy the give and take - but given the anti-Thaksin focus of above post, reminds me of what someone who lives on Social Media told me.......Did you know there is a dedicated group of "anti-Thaksin activists" on the loose.......... Zealously devoted and single-minded in their pursuit to demonize him. Seeking to undermine an electoral strength that so threatens the anti-democrats.

I wonder if they are paid and by whom....But I don't know that.....but it seems logical given the ubiquity of them and their omnipresence everywhere on Social Media.

You think they are paid. Because you can't conceive of someone having the moral integrity to oppose a blatant criminal stealing from the people he pledges to serve?

[Fat Haggis]

I agree with a lot of what you're saying, I'm very much against corruption in any shape or form, I have even signed anti corruption documents in the past, but time and time and time again I'm placed in a position here in Iraq where I have to make a phone call to make things right.

It goes against every principle in my body, it's like accepting gifts, or meals from clients or potential clients it's a big no no, but the harsh reality is that as much as people attempt to change corruption, it never does. It's like a cancer. And there's always someone caught up in the middle.

This is why I'm very against serving officers of either the police or the armed forces sitting on PLC and SOEs as its a conflict of interest in what their true professions are.

Cops and squaddies don't get paid to advise people on things like crime prevention and security matters in the UK, as that's part and parcel of their roles, they're giving something to the country, here in Thailand that's not the case

.

Officers paying their way through the ranks both police and military, which creates a divide with those that have the money and means to those that don't, it's wrong, it's corruption but will it ever stop?