The Farang And Thailand

[The Snark]

THe Visa issue. It's really quite simple. Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

How this effects the farang.

First, replace the word farang with money. That is all you are. Even if you manage to gain some degree of status, you are not a local, you are not an inside part of a Chinese/Thainese business operation, and you are certainly not a member of a family.

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

This attitude is reflected in many aspects of the immigration laws. Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

The newest set of rules and restrictions reflects this purely business ethic. Examine. The casual visitor is cash. While some are dirt poor backpackers, many are big bucks tourists. The new rules regarding Visa on arrival go with a charted trend. The most amount of cash from visitors comes in the first two weeks of the visit to Thailand. This cash flow slowly tapers off until after a certain period of time and the visitor only offers a minimal amount of profit. The immigration department is presently experimenting with what length of time is sufficient to relieve the visitor of most of their cash in an unrestricted manner. Since it is deemed there is still a significant profit to be made from the extended on arrival visitor, they extend the hospitality gesture to 90 days. Beyond that period of time the profit becomes too minimal in comparison to the expenses. As it is impossible to discriminate between the flea infested backpacker and the megabucks crowd, they are simply offering an envelope of time which fully accomodates the greatest amount of money.

As any long stay person has noticed, everything is being upscaled. 5 star hotels are popping up like mushrooms. 100 baht a night guest houses are a thing of the past. As the conglomerates, coporations, and group business venture interests consolidate their holdings, they are moving farther and farther away from the minimal profit ventures. The smaller businessmen are being phased out.

What this means to the expat farang is simple. Are you Yi baht? If not, please leave. You as a person has no cash value. You are not wanted in Thailand at all. Only your money is desired. As the flow from your pocket decreases, so does your desireability.

Sound mercenary? Depressing? Unnecessarily pessimistic? It isn't in the least. It is only good business sense, as tried and proven since before written history throughout China.

Now some will immediately point out the long stay expat still represents some degree of cash flow. Examine where this cash is flowing. The big buck short stay visitors money mostly goes into the pockets of the large corporations and business interests. The long term visitor patronizes the locals. While this injects a cash flow which is eventually realized by the people at the top, the flow is insignificant compared to the preferred short term visitor. The short term visitor dumps 10,000 to 50,000 per day or more directly into the corporate/conglomerate pockets, the long term, 1000 to 5000, or less. Now keep in mind, the ones who run the country and make the rules, generally speaking, are all in the 6 or 7 figures per month income and already have established their ways of siphoning off the money from the little folks without having to rely on the long term expat farang.

And so, it is up to the long term expat to prove their value to the general economy. The problem there being, you can't. You cannot prove your money is going to support this or that political faction. Will be firmly attached to a certain family or business groups special interests. Quite to the contrary. This influx of cash is uncontrolled and unregulated. This, as a general rule, is very much unwanted. Thailand is ran and ruled by money and power in a strict dichotomy. The last thing the powers that be want is the little guy amassing significant amounts of personal wealth.

Edited September 19, 2006 by The Snark

[sting01]

THe Visa issue. It's really quite simple. Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

How this effects the farang.

First, replace the word farang with money. That is all you are. Even if you manage to gain some degree of status, you are not a local, you are not an inside part of a Chinese/Thainese business operation, and you are certainly not a member of a family.

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

This attitude is reflected in many aspects of the immigration laws. Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

The newest set of rules and restrictions reflects this purely business ethic. Examine. The casual visitor is cash. While some are dirt poor backpackers, many are big bucks tourists. The new rules regarding Visa on arrival go with a charted trend. The most amount of cash from visitors comes in the first two weeks of the visit to Thailand. This cash flow slowly tapers off until after a certain period of time and the visitor only offers a minimal amount of profit. The immigration department is presently experimenting with what length of time is sufficient to relieve the visitor of most of their cash in an unrestricted manner. Since it is deemed there is still a significant profit to be made from the extended on arrival visitor, they extend the hospitality gesture to 90 days. Beyond that period of time the profit becomes too minimal in comparison to the expenses. As it is impossible to discriminate between the flea infested backpacker and the megabucks crowd, they are simply offering an envelope of time which fully accomodates the greatest amount of money.

As any long stay person has noticed, everything is being upscaled. 5 star hotels are popping up like mushrooms. 100 baht a night guest houses are a thing of the past. As the conglomerates, coporations, and group business venture interests consolidate their holdings, they are moving farther and farther away from the minimal profit ventures. The smaller businessmen are being phased out.

What this means to the expat farang is simple. Are you Yi baht? If not, please leave. You as a person has no cash value. You are not wanted in Thailand at all. Only your money is desired. As the flow from your pocket decreases, so does your desireability.

Sound mercenary? Depressing? Unnecessarily pessimistic? It isn't in the least. It is only good business sense, as tried and proven since before written history throughout China.

Now some will immediately point out the long stay expat still represents some degree of cash flow. Examine where this cash is flowing. The big buck short stay visitors money mostly goes into the pockets of the large corporations and business interests. The long term visitor patronizes the locals. While this injects a cash flow which is eventually realized by the people at the top, the flow is insignificant compared to the preferred short term visitor. The short term visitor dumps 10,000 to 50,000 per day or more directly into the corporate/conglomerate pockets, the long term, 1000 to 5000, or less. Now keep in mind, the ones who run the country and make the rules, generally speaking, are all in the 6 or 7 figures per month income and already have established their ways of siphoning off the money from the little folks without having to rely on the long term expat farang.

And so, it is up to the long term expat to prove their value to the general economy. The problem there being, you can't. You cannot prove your money is going to support this or that political faction. Will be firmly attached to a certain family or business groups special interests. Quite to the contrary. This influx of cash is uncontrolled and unregulated. This, as a general rule, is very much unwanted. Thailand is ran and ruled by money and power in a strict dichotomy. The last thing the powers that be want is the little guy amassing significant amounts of personal wealth.

That is rude, crude and hurt .... because it's well written, well thinked and for most part TRUE.

I agree for the most part of that post, saddly

[Thaiquila]

Well, so money is everything in Thailand. Being American, I hardly notice the difference ...

[camerata]

Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

Oh, but there is. It's called Permanent Residence. Get a decent job with a decent salary at a decent company and you're entitled to apply after only 3 years. When you apply, everyone is helpful. When you get it, you have the right to stay in Thailand forever and the right to apply for citizenship.

Some people will always see the glass as half empty. I prefer to see it as half full.

[drummer]

I think you are going a bit overboard, Shark. You can more reasonably explain the current rules by cultural clashes, xenophobia, and saving face than by a major conspiracy by the elite to dominate the poor and to keep the little man down. It is just not in their best interest.

And, there is another apect that you almost completely looked over ... the guys on top BENIFIT DIRECTLY from guys at the bottom having more money. Money trickles up. A person like Thaksin makes more money from empowered consumers. The more money that the Average Joe has, the more they spend. They more they spend, the more the Big Guys make. You ca think think of it like this... even though local expats support the local community, they still buy phone cards. The gasoline they use still comes from somewhere. A smaller percantage of a big number is better than a large percentage of nothing. It is a numbers game, and the money will get into their pockets eventually. (looking at it as a big guy vs small guy game)

o this kind of thing doesn't make sense. Rather, this seems to be an excercise of cultural values and face saving. Almost nobody financially wins with this scenario, as it lays now. One can make a case that it will save face for Thailand, and that is more important than any financial aspect you can name.

Edited September 19, 2006 by drummer

[Richard Hall]

Well, usually there is always that constant Thailand bashing of how underdeveloped the country is. "Third world country or developing country" is the utmost that can be squeezed out from the nationals of the supposed to be more superior countries. The list of bashing and whining on countless subjects (TIT) is endless.

Now, whenever the country does a step towards sweeping things up a new chorus of moaners lines up. It always appears a lose/lose situation.

Personally, I have got to know the Thai people and Thai authorities to be very hospitable, kind and helpful may it be in terms of Immigration, Revenue Department, FDA, Labour Department, Ministry of Commerce etc. Started to experience this when I begun to deal with them directly myself rather than sending a messenger. Knowing the language and cultural rules is absolutely essential and sometimes it appears that the foreigner is even granted priviledges over the Thai nationals. More than once I was offered to get a form filled in by an officier when in doubt whether the knowledge of the Thai language was sufficient enough to cope with it. No compensation expected and even heartfully denied when offered.

Personally, I have got the impression that things have improved quite a bit over the course of the years rather than declining but this surely only if one followed the rules.

No, there has never been a welcome with open arms right from the beginning and dare you how can someone expect this coming in as the new kid on the block? Integration is the name of the game and heck it is not the job of the host to adjust but rather the newcomer's part to blend in. Respect does not come automatically but needs to be earned.

Realizing and coping with this can make life very enjoyable and very easy in Thailand. Scrap that TIT attitude and replace it with LOS and the people here will surely appreciate this by not treating you as just another weird foreigner but a person enjoyable to have around and not being soooo different at all from the Thais. Eventually, they start seeing you as a resident of Thailand, with a family and problems identical to themselves and accept you as such in their middle.

Anyway, blood is certainly thicker than water and family is family and it should be this way whether you are Thai, Chinese or a foreigner of any nationality. It is not strictly blood related and my own family includes various nationalities. Family is who you can rely on 100%ly in whatever situation.

In most cases many foreigner do not get excluded by the Thai society but rather exclude themselves without realizing this problem to be their own fault. May it be lacking any language skills, may it be the area and/or the people they usually hang out with or may it just be an attitude based on ignorance or even arrogance.

"Why do so many foreigners not smile and appear so defensive?" was I asked more than once.

"Because they are afraid of getting ripped off by the Thais upon having received stern warnings from so many sources".

We had a hearty laugh together and kept walking.

Cheers,

Richard

[Thanyaburi Mac]

Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

Oh, but there is. It's called Permanent Residence. Get a decent job with a decent salary at a decent company and you're entitled to apply after only 3 years. When you apply, everyone is helpful. When you get it, you have the right to stay in Thailand forever and the right to apply for citizenship.

Some people will always see the glass as half empty. I prefer to see it as half full.

Camerata

Hmmm, not for all, I guess. I applied for the Residence Permit three or four years ago when I'd been on the retirement extension of a non-O visa for five years. I'm married to a Thai gal, she owns the house, I have a decent pension from the U.S. Government, more than the minimum, have baht in the bank, never been arrested, seemed to meet the criteria, or so I thought.

Wonder what went wrong? I do know, if it's still correct, that they only approve 100 Retirement Permits per year, perhaps I was #101? Don't know. That year Min of Interier K Purachai had stopped issuing Residence Permits for a couple of years for some reason, and there were also rumors that they'd NOT be issued in the future on the basis of "retirement." I had submitted our marriage certificate to the folks at Suan Plu.

And, to put perhaps a negative twist on things, an American friend of mine got his that year after what he claimed was about baht 350k paid via his lawyer? The lawyer a crook?

In any case, the legitimate cost of the Retirement Permit went way up from the former baht 50 when approved so I've not tried since then.

Do hope they don't muck with the criteria for the Retirement Extension, I still fall under the baht 250k in the bank rule for those who had such prior to October 1998.

Mac

[dog412]

THe Visa issue. It's really quite simple. Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

How this effects the farang.

First, replace the word farang with money. That is all you are. Even if you manage to gain some degree of status, you are not a local, you are not an inside part of a Chinese/Thainese business operation, and you are certainly not a member of a family.

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

This attitude is reflected in many aspects of the immigration laws. Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

The newest set of rules and restrictions reflects this purely business ethic. Examine. The casual visitor is cash. While some are dirt poor backpackers, many are big bucks tourists. The new rules regarding Visa on arrival go with a charted trend. The most amount of cash from visitors comes in the first two weeks of the visit to Thailand. This cash flow slowly tapers off until after a certain period of time and the visitor only offers a minimal amount of profit. The immigration department is presently experimenting with what length of time is sufficient to relieve the visitor of most of their cash in an unrestricted manner. Since it is deemed there is still a significant profit to be made from the extended on arrival visitor, they extend the hospitality gesture to 90 days. Beyond that period of time the profit becomes too minimal in comparison to the expenses. As it is impossible to discriminate between the flea infested backpacker and the megabucks crowd, they are simply offering an envelope of time which fully accomodates the greatest amount of money.

As any long stay person has noticed, everything is being upscaled. 5 star hotels are popping up like mushrooms. 100 baht a night guest houses are a thing of the past. As the conglomerates, coporations, and group business venture interests consolidate their holdings, they are moving farther and farther away from the minimal profit ventures. The smaller businessmen are being phased out.

What this means to the expat farang is simple. Are you Yi baht? If not, please leave. You as a person has no cash value. You are not wanted in Thailand at all. Only your money is desired. As the flow from your pocket decreases, so does your desireability.

Sound mercenary? Depressing? Unnecessarily pessimistic? It isn't in the least. It is only good business sense, as tried and proven since before written history throughout China.

Now some will immediately point out the long stay expat still represents some degree of cash flow. Examine where this cash is flowing. The big buck short stay visitors money mostly goes into the pockets of the large corporations and business interests. The long term visitor patronizes the locals. While this injects a cash flow which is eventually realized by the people at the top, the flow is insignificant compared to the preferred short term visitor. The short term visitor dumps 10,000 to 50,000 per day or more directly into the corporate/conglomerate pockets, the long term, 1000 to 5000, or less. Now keep in mind, the ones who run the country and make the rules, generally speaking, are all in the 6 or 7 figures per month income and already have established their ways of siphoning off the money from the little folks without having to rely on the long term expat farang.

And so, it is up to the long term expat to prove their value to the general economy. The problem there being, you can't. You cannot prove your money is going to support this or that political faction. Will be firmly attached to a certain family or business groups special interests. Quite to the contrary. This influx of cash is uncontrolled and unregulated. This, as a general rule, is very much unwanted. Thailand is ran and ruled by money and power in a strict dichotomy. The last thing the powers that be want is the little guy amassing significant amounts of personal wealth.

i have to agree. there was a documentary i watched in singapore detailing the chinese "culture" of business. the book to read was "the art of war". i believe that there may two books of the same title by two different authors. live and learn.

[dog412]

THE ART OF WAR by SUN TZU.

[opebo]

Excellent analysis, the Snark! I couldn't agree more. However I would like to point out that the reason all of us come to Thailand - the girls - come mostly from Isaan or other rural areas. These are the ethnic groups that are looked down upon by the Chinese-Thai and Central Thai, who are bigoted xenophobic snobs. The poor people who appeal to most tourists for companionship are from a much more laid-back and fun-focused culture, necessarily, because they've always been oppressed and have never had any money.

This isn't to say an Isaan working girl isn't mercenary, just that she knows how to be friendly and have a good time while she is working, and doesn't necessarily look down on the farang (after all she's from the lowest class in the Thai heirarchy). The Central and Chinese Thais basically do look on the farang (or for that matter anyone) as an annoyance to get money out of, not a person.

[zeusbheld]

Excellent analysis, the Snark! I couldn't agree more. However I would like to point out that the reason all of us come to Thailand - the girls - come mostly from Isaan or other rural areas. These are the ethnic groups that are looked down upon by the Chinese-Thai and Central Thai, who are bigoted xenophobic snobs. The poor people who appeal to most tourists for companionship are from a much more laid-back and fun-focused culture, necessarily, because they've always been oppressed and have never had any money.

This isn't to say an Isaan working girl isn't mercenary, just that she knows how to be friendly and have a good time while she is working, and doesn't necessarily look down on the farang (after all she's from the lowest class in the Thai heirarchy). The Central and Chinese Thais basically do look on the farang (or for that matter anyone) as an annoyance to get money out of, not a person.

yeeah right. the average isaan bar girl has more integrity than the 'bigoted xenophobic snobs.' it's good that she doesn't look down on you when she's ripping you off, and looks on you as a real person while she's fleecing you out of buffalo repair kit after buffalo repair kit. funny thing, though, those 'bigoted xenophobic snobs' aren't the ones voting for toxin.

just as you guys take the bargirls' bait like lemmings, you take to this windup like lemmings. oh right, it's not a windup, everyone writes a novel-length psuedo-expose on his very first post. the careful observer will also note he dubbed himself "the snark"--that's sNark not sHark for those that might have skimmed and missed it; the poster knew what he was doing. unlike the average farrang in thailand apparently.

no wonder many thais (including, but not limited to, the dreaded central thais and yes, sino thais) think farrangs have more money than sense. apparently farrangs don't need much money to make the equation work either.

keep believing your bargirl is different and really, really cares, and is genuinely having fun, and *definitely* doesn't look upon you as an annoyance to get money out of, but instead, a fully-dimensional human being who just happens to be paying for her family's big-screen tv, her brother's gambling debts and her father's SUV.

you einsteins rush out and marry bargirls then. the cliff's right over there. just wait long enough for me to make some popcorn, this ought to be fun to watch.

[zeusbheld]

THE ART OF WAR by SUN TZU.

dog412, ever compare sun tzu to clausewitz?

if you're invoking sun tzu to show the chinese are ruthless and to be feared, then the ones we should really be afraid of is farrangs.

"we have met the enemy, and he is us"...

[dog412]

THE ART OF WAR by SUN TZU.

dog412, ever compare sun tzu to clausewitz?

if you're invoking sun tzu to show the chinese are ruthless and to be feared, then the ones we should really be afraid of is farrangs.

"we have met the enemy, and he is us"...

i am afraid of no one and everyone. as WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS said, humans are a "BAD ANIMAL". why would you fear one race more than the other, other than the concern of your own benefit. as humans, we must BELIEVE there to be a way unify the future. i believe humans have this capacity.

[chatette]

Totally spot on Snark. An excellent analysis. Richard, you have succumbed to accepting the flawed way things are done here, along with the perception you are advantaged by someone helping you out. That's basic courtesy. No, Snark has nailed the tail: The ruling Thainese elite, the spawn of those who changed the laws to prevent wealth being amassed by another wave of foreigners to protect their own wealth, do not want their status undermined by individual wealth generation by capable non-Thai professionals or entrepreneurs. I have done the residency thing but have not retained it; it's easier to renew my work permit and visa each year at the one-stop shop. My citizenship application has been outstanding for 7 years. Although I meet all the criteria and pay more tax each month than my entire street probably pays in a year, I wonder it will ever be processed for precisely the reasons that Snark covered so well. The place is primative. Yet there is an exception: Bill Heineke.Who can explain how he has done so well here with a farang face?

[zeusbheld]

THE ART OF WAR by SUN TZU.

dog412, ever compare sun tzu to clausewitz?

if you're invoking sun tzu to show the chinese are ruthless and to be feared, then the ones we should really be afraid of is farrangs.

"we have met the enemy, and he is us"...

i am afraid of no one and everyone. as WILLIAM S. BURROUGHS said, humans are a "BAD ANIMAL". why would you fear one race more than the other, other than the concern of your own benefit. as humans, we must BELIEVE there to be a way unify the future. i believe humans have this capacity.

as of fairly recently, we also have the capacity to be the agent of our own extinction. will be interesting to see which capacity wins out.

[jamie46]

We're no longer welcome here.

Thailand is all about chinese mean ways now.

[backflip]

"we have met the enemy, and he is us"

Walt Kelly (or is it "ey") had Pogo possum say that. If my life philosophy was dependent on American cartoons, I'd keep it to myself.

[The Dan Sai Kid]

Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

Oh, but there is. It's called Permanent Residence. Get a decent job with a decent salary at a decent company and you're entitled to apply after only 3 years. When you apply, everyone is helpful. When you get it, you have the right to stay in Thailand forever and the right to apply for citizenship.

Some people will always see the glass as half empty. I prefer to see it as half full.

...and once you have that it's the end of 90 day reporting, right?

[JimsKnight]

The shark mans right guys, the bottom line is, if you have money your the man, if you haven't the money your nothing. Theres no such thing as the buffalo fund for falangs in thailand!!

Heck even winning on the thai lottery is supposedly illegal for falangs! Or is it?

Edited September 20, 2006 by JimsKnight

[johnnyk]

The shark mans right guys, the bottom line is, if you have money your the man, if you haven't the money your nothing.

Where is this not true?

[camerata]

Hmmm, not for all, I guess. I applied for the Residence Permit three or four years ago when I'd been on the retirement extension of a non-O visa for five years. I'm married to a Thai gal, she owns the house, I have a decent pension from the U.S. Government, more than the minimum, have baht in the bank, never been arrested, seemed to meet the criteria, or so I thought.

Wonder what went wrong? I do know, if it's still correct, that they only approve 100 Retirement Permits per year, perhaps I was #101? Don't know. That year Min of Interier K Purachai had stopped issuing Residence Permits for a couple of years for some reason, and there were also rumors that they'd NOT be issued in the future on the basis of "retirement." I had submitted our marriage certificate to the folks at Suan Plu.

The thing is, you just have to keep trying. I know someone who was rejected twice and then got PR without changing any of his documents. AFAIK it used to cost 50K whether you got it or not, but now it costs 7,500 baht to apply and 100K if you succeed. Much fairer, even though it is expensive when you get it. I don't know why they did away with the "retired" category but you can apply in the "humanitarian" category for support of a Thai citizen.

There is a quota of 100 per nationality but I doubt even 100 apply from Western nations. Generally, 5-20 succeed from the larger developed nations each year.

And, to put perhaps a negative twist on things, an American friend of mine got his that year after what he claimed was about baht 350k paid via his lawyer? The lawyer a crook?

He'll never know. I just paid the government fee.

In any case, the legitimate cost of the Retirement Permit went way up from the former baht 50 when approved so I've not tried since then.

7.5K if you fail, 100K if you succeed. But then you're set for life. Even though I had to pay 200K as a single guy, I still thought it was worth it.

Give it another shot (or two).

[camerata]

We're no longer welcome here.

Thailand is all about chinese mean ways now.

Not true. The OP has been reading too much Sterling Seagrave. I recently got permanent residence here even though my salary wasn't much above the minimum. Throughout the entire process, government officials were polite, helpful and friendly. That means Immigration, the local police and the tabien baan section at the local district office.

Tighter immigration regulations simply means the government wants to get a tighter grip on what has become an extremely lax situation at a time when an influx of foreign criminals and the international terrorism situation requires better control. Increased visa fees simple reflects rising salaries and costs. There is nothing sinister in this. Fees have to go up now and again.

[camerata]

Heck even winning on the thai lottery is supposedly illegal for falangs! Or is it?

Just another urban (farang) myth, like the one about how Thai banks don't pay interest to foreigners on their savings accounts.

[lannarebirth]

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

While their track record is somewhat spotty, there are few nations on earth that have taken in as many refugees as Thailand. Many 10's of thousands of refugees have been processed through Thailand for resettlement to other nations.

[zeusbheld]

"we have met the enemy, and he is us"

Walt Kelly (or is it "ey") had Pogo possum say that. If my life philosophy was dependent on American cartoons, I'd keep it to myself.

amazingly, in your seemingly infinite erudition, you comment on a cartoon quote but ignore the comment about the differences in military doctrine outlined in clausewitz vs those outlined in sun tzu?

it has very little to do with my "life philosophy" as you so quaintly put it, i merely offered the comparison since a few posters were claiming chinese are ruthless and bloodthirsty because they read sun tzu. did that go sailing over your head, or were you too busy puffing up to notice?

at no point have i mentioned my "life philosophy" yet you have appointed yourself to evaluate it based on a few posts in response to a windup on a website?? why didnt you take your own advice and keep it to yourself? or was your intent to distort my post by taking one small part of it out of context?

can you really even do a backflip? you toss really well though, enjoy it

Edited September 20, 2006 by zeusbheld

[sabaijai]

THe Visa issue. It's really quite simple. Thailand is no longer the Thailand many once knew. The traditional Thai generosity and hospitality is being fazed out. This is clearly reflected in the continuing increase in the cost of immigration fees, as well as many other aspect of business.

Why is this? Thailand is no longer Thai. It is operated predominantly by Chinese and Thainese business persons along the classic, typical lines of the ancient Chinese business traditions. The warmth and hospitality the Thai's have been famous for for centuries is being replaced. It has no cash value. For those of you who don't know and understand the typical Chinese business ethic, there are only two aspects to dealing with other people. Family and profit. Nothing comes before these two and these two rigidly rule and dictate all life in any Chinese society.

How this effects the farang.

First, replace the word farang with money. That is all you are. Even if you manage to gain some degree of status, you are not a local, you are not an inside part of a Chinese/Thainese business operation, and you are certainly not a member of a family.

Thailand has also made it abundantly clear, as China has already established, human rights are valueless. Human rights and pursuit of a life of dignity has no cash value. Thailand is not signatory to the International Refugee Conventions, and commonly and flagrantly violates human rights laws with complete impunity. Their treatment of both refugees and stateless tribal persons is quite clear as far as this is concerned. No profit, no recognition, no rights, no voice.

This attitude is reflected in many aspects of the immigration laws. Notice things such as exemplary conduct on behalf of the farang wishing to stay in Thailand for an extended period is not recognized. There isn't even a place in the system where this can be taken into account.

The newest set of rules and restrictions reflects this purely business ethic. Examine. The casual visitor is cash. While some are dirt poor backpackers, many are big bucks tourists. The new rules regarding Visa on arrival go with a charted trend. The most amount of cash from visitors comes in the first two weeks of the visit to Thailand. This cash flow slowly tapers off until after a certain period of time and the visitor only offers a minimal amount of profit. The immigration department is presently experimenting with what length of time is sufficient to relieve the visitor of most of their cash in an unrestricted manner. Since it is deemed there is still a significant profit to be made from the extended on arrival visitor, they extend the hospitality gesture to 90 days. Beyond that period of time the profit becomes too minimal in comparison to the expenses. As it is impossible to discriminate between the flea infested backpacker and the megabucks crowd, they are simply offering an envelope of time which fully accomodates the greatest amount of money.

As any long stay person has noticed, everything is being upscaled. 5 star hotels are popping up like mushrooms. 100 baht a night guest houses are a thing of the past. As the conglomerates, coporations, and group business venture interests consolidate their holdings, they are moving farther and farther away from the minimal profit ventures. The smaller businessmen are being phased out.

What this means to the expat farang is simple. Are you Yi baht? If not, please leave. You as a person has no cash value. You are not wanted in Thailand at all. Only your money is desired. As the flow from your pocket decreases, so does your desireability.

Sound mercenary? Depressing? Unnecessarily pessimistic? It isn't in the least. It is only good business sense, as tried and proven since before written history throughout China.

Now some will immediately point out the long stay expat still represents some degree of cash flow. Examine where this cash is flowing. The big buck short stay visitors money mostly goes into the pockets of the large corporations and business interests. The long term visitor patronizes the locals. While this injects a cash flow which is eventually realized by the people at the top, the flow is insignificant compared to the preferred short term visitor. The short term visitor dumps 10,000 to 50,000 per day or more directly into the corporate/conglomerate pockets, the long term, 1000 to 5000, or less. Now keep in mind, the ones who run the country and make the rules, generally speaking, are all in the 6 or 7 figures per month income and already have established their ways of siphoning off the money from the little folks without having to rely on the long term expat farang.

And so, it is up to the long term expat to prove their value to the general economy. The problem there being, you can't. You cannot prove your money is going to support this or that political faction. Will be firmly attached to a certain family or business groups special interests. Quite to the contrary. This influx of cash is uncontrolled and unregulated. This, as a general rule, is very much unwanted. Thailand is ran and ruled by money and power in a strict dichotomy. The last thing the powers that be want is the little guy amassing significant amounts of personal wealth.

Somehow I missed the news that the new immigration policy was directed towards farang specifically. I mistakenly thought it applied to all nationalities ....

[opebo]

yeeah right. the average isaan bar girl has more integrity than the 'bigoted xenophobic snobs.' it's good that she doesn't look down on you when she's ripping you off, and looks on you as a real person while she's fleecing you out of buffalo repair kit after buffalo repair kit. funny thing, though, those 'bigoted xenophobic snobs' aren't the ones voting for toxin.

Who said anything about 'integrity' - I doubt either group has that. As for their unfortunate political tendences, the poor cannot be blamed for that as they are merely reacting to their oppression under the capitalist system.

As for fleecing, it doesn't happen to me, as I do 100% short time only. Two hours of fun and then you're blissfully ALONE.

[Bakuteh]

I can confirm that the new immigration rule applies to all nationalities.

My bro-in-law who is a 74 yr old Briton confirmed this when he went to the Immigration Department to seek clarification. And he is in a fix as his only option is to apply for a retirement permit. Recently (before the new ruling) he bought a bungalow and registered it in his Thai companion's name. Only consolation is that he has not, apart from his property purchase, been too financially disadvantaged.

[h5n1]

this is so funny and so true....as i was making a run to penang while in transit (bkk) i was counting the chinese in the mrt car. i figured about 40% plus another 15% mix )pulling into hulaappong aka chinatown). i think if you dont micro analyze the statement it is VERY true.

but the there are the chinese (ie poor chinese in the south) who have lived here with thais/muslims for centuries ITS THE NEW CHINESE the monied elite, tossed their commie passports, married thai (often sub royalty). chinese are about money sure enough. i was told years ago chinese and viets came into lao, tossed the pp, married lao lady and live in lao (before the HUGE boom in china). viet men STILL do this.

but we shall all have the last laugh...that is those of us not stupid enough to have:

married (ok...SOME marriages work out)

bought land/hse/cndo

bought anything (car, golf membership, boat...)

like i said before all of you thinking you are so clever on your non-imm/retirement visas - its only a matter of time before they start messing w/ the requirements again and make you jump thru even more hoops.

all that fat, lazy guys act like its the end of the world - what will i do without my pies and aircon, ubc and western toilets. you are the same people that besmirch the backpacker but without these mod-cons you will be gone in ten days.

...well friends if you have to go SEE asia and learn something about these people - good on you. but these days will never pass becasue you will go home as without the mod-cons and heaven forbid the fe/male companionship dried up, youd be home in a flash -and you will.

all of your lecturing about following the law an dapologists for thai govt - you the newbies. never even heard of thailand when us old asian hands, many years your juniour were living, traveling and learning about all of these cool places and countries.

the same guys lecturing all of us about what abominations we are that live as locals ...simply becasue we dont have the money, dont want to spend the money, dont feel any compunction to spend the money, are quite happy to live local - lovely thai food, sleep under a fan, eat and drink with the thais.

and bless you guys living in nakon nowhere with wife and supporting her past mistakes (HER children) and living humbly. but that is not good enough for thai govt becasue they care not a wit about HER either.

i dont give a rip about thailand, no love lost here.....but i always have a soft spot in my heart w/ the poor and that is precisely where i have always spent my money and will alwasy do so.

this is the new thailand.

BOYCOTT: THAI AIR/NOK AIR and tranist via THAILAND.

Edited September 20, 2006 by h5n1

[zeusbheld]

As for fleecing, it doesn't happen to me, as I do 100% short time only. Two hours of fun and then you're blissfully ALONE.

thank god there's at least one farrang left in thailand with some common sense.

hope you're not on the endangered species list... don't let 'em put you in a zoo, stay free...

and most importantly, never, ever ever succumb to the temptations of long time.

Edited September 20, 2006 by zeusbheld