When I hear other farangs dissing Chiang Mai ... I get irritated

[smotherb]

For some reason I never really get what the OP describes..

People don't e-mail me with any horrors, and also in person people don't seem to think I'm here for anything nefarious or illegal.

Mesquite added: "I had an American tourist in Thailand ask me why I lived here, what are you, a pedophile?"..

I think I would just be perplexed by something like that.. Also my response would likely be that she's here too.. Why did she visit, is she a pedophile?.. That would likely be my response.

As an aside though, I don't blame people in general who have been somewhat brainwashed by media reports (though there is a strong decline in these compared to 10-15 years ago) to be pro-active about potential child abuse. They're trying to do the right thing for society, so I can have some understanding of that.

I got such treatment!

I got harassed by two UK women because they deemed my GF to be too young, I should be ashamed of myself, etc.

I was 39 yo and my GF 32 at the time ?

I have found Western women to be very defensive with respect to comparisons to Asian women. They tend to not understand why a Western man may prefer an Asian woman. I say, just touch the skin on their faces, backs, or legs. If you don't feel the difference, you'll never understand.

[NoshowJones]

OP, I can relate.

My guess is the salacious portrayal of Thailand in the western press sells papers (or ad clicks), and that is the reason for it. I've had people in the US tell me about the organized "child sex tours" and ask why doesn't the Thai government do something about it? Huh? Another time I had an American tourist in Thailand ask me why I lived here, what are you, a pedophile? It was only when I uncharacteristically hinted at physical violence against her (yes...it was a woman) that she backed off. I can only guess these two people thought that way because they had read it in the press.

Now when someone from my home country, the US, says anything negative about Thailand, I invite them to come over for a visit and see for themselves. No one has. I guess they would rather keep their view of this country intact.

"Child sex tours"? I have read many things about Thailand, been asked many things about Thailand when back in the UK, But I have never ever heard or read anything about any type of "child sex tours" in Thailand, and it makes my blood boil to think that anyone would ever associate Thailand with "child sex tours".

[merlen10002]

I get pissed off when white people call other white people 'farangs'

No excuse for being a racist bigot when you SHOULD know better.

Can not understand why anyone would get upset and all bent and twisted about being called a Westerner or European Foreigner , this is from English Thai Dictionary.

Edited July 13, 2015 by Tywais
Fixed image

[ChangMaiSausage]

Great a positive post that basically says "I don't give a toss to what others think about CM"

I have to agree I know many friends who dislike CM (though they have never told me exactly why and I have never asked as I don't care)

CM has its charms and also its low's (most for me also identified below) I'm only a part time resident, eventually we will settle down in our family home in CM and I for one cant wait.

What ticks one box for one may not the other.

I don't particularly seek the company of other farang (but often have a coffee, beer or chat with 'em).

I don't need to eat farang food although there are plenty of options for home cooking or restaurants ( hi Marco)

I don't like the smog season but it is no real big deal to me.

I don't notice the corruption cause I don't let it affect me.

I don't feel threatened on the streets.

I don't get aggrieved by some of the "not so beautiful" sights, there are plenty of nice ones to counter them.

After 11 years, I am yet to have a boring day.

The only people who could annoy me (if I let them) are negative or just plain ignorant ex-pats.

A simple ride on the scooter around town, meeting a gorgeous, immaculately groomed Thai lady friend for lunch or coffee makes me smile (lots) and rejuvenates the soul.

Life is good in the"Rose of the North"

[NoshowJones]

For some reason I never really get what the OP describes..

People don't e-mail me with any horrors, and also in person people don't seem to think I'm here for anything nefarious or illegal.

Mesquite added: "I had an American tourist in Thailand ask me why I lived here, what are you, a pedophile?"..

I think I would just be perplexed by something like that.. Also my response would likely be that she's here too.. Why did she visit, is she a pedophile?.. That would likely be my response.

As an aside though, I don't blame people in general who have been somewhat brainwashed by media reports (though there is a strong decline in these compared to 10-15 years ago) to be pro-active about potential child abuse. They're trying to do the right thing for society, so I can have some understanding of that.

I got such treatment!

I got harassed by two UK women because they deemed my GF to be too young, I should be ashamed of myself, etc.

I was 39 yo and my GF 32 at the time ?

Yes, it's very easy, there are many UK 39 year old guys who look over fifty, and many thirty two year old Thai girls who could easily pass as teenagers.

Was your GF at the time a Thai girl?

Only three weeks ago, when I was in Pattaya, a very young looking Thai woman whose head only reached my chest asked "go with you", I said "go home, you are far too young",

she said "I am thirty five".

[cocopops]

At the risk of turning this into another thread about the term "farang" yes there are Thai people who consider it a perjorative. Or at least a coarse word. Kind of like referring to the Uighur refugees as breeding animals (i.e. "litters" of children)

Are you talking about people in a specific demographic that I might never have come accross? I know a few Thai professionals - i.e. middle-class in the American sense - but nobody you would call the middle-class in the English public school sense.

Because I just find it hard to believe that my partner of almost 10 years, all of my neighbours, the local couple who I consider to be our best friends in the world, my landlord and my lawyer all occasionally refer to me in the third person using a derogatory term. I really can't believe it is a strong as the "litters" slur, which produced a shaking of the head in everyone I know.

The only Thai I have ever heard express the opinion that "falang" is derogatory is my Thai teacher - and the context of that was that she had decided not to use it any more because another student had mentioned that some people (but not him personally) didn't like it.

So what kind of native speaker, in your experience, thinks it's offensive? Younger Thais with overseas educations? Older people who are more careful choosing words? In rough terms, who is it?

I'm a white English-speaking male in my thirties! I've been dying to be part of a victimised group all my life so I need to know when I can get outraged!

Edited July 13, 2015 by cocopops

[Thakkar]

OP, your touchiness over the puerile musings of the ignorant is bewildering. An Orang soul in a human meat package must surely be more sanguine and Unperturbable? Improbably, could some remnants of the human soul be reasserting it's ugly self?

As for me, a soulless hedonist in a human meat package, I'm here for the women and the cheap Thai whisky and I resent any implications that my motives are anything but otherwise. Oh yeah, I go to temples too-- they're the best places to meet gullible women.

T

[bazza40]

Any time I'm in Australia and I mention I live in CM, the old wink wink/nudge nudge comes out from the males, and you disgusting old man from the females.

Ladies and gentlemen, I have news for you.

Ladies first: Thai women have you beaten so badly it's a bit like Federer against a local "A" grader. They are affectionate, playful and overwhelmingly devoted to pleasing us, as long as we read the price tag. Moreover, they are not fat, discontented, whining slugs dedicated to the art of emasculation. Their looks vary from pleasant viewing to absolutely stunning, even into their fifties. A very low percentage of fuglies.

Gentlemen, one can detect the envy seeping from your pores. You stay in loveless relationships because you are petrified you'll fulfil Robin William's observation on divorce - from the Latin word meaning to rip out a man's genitals through his wallet. Although that's already happened, you don't have the balls to do it yourself, so you sneer at those who have. I wish you a long life.

There, I feel better now - hope I'm not too far off topic.

[NoshowJones]

It`s because how Thailand has been depicted in the past, especially by the media, and still happening today that so many people living outside the country have negative views about Thailand. I describe it as the western perspective.

Also Thai visa members have not done much to show Thailand in a brighter light. Threads and posts constantly knocking everything Thai, where the term, Thainerss, has taken on a whole new negative meaning here on Thai visa. Very few likes and populars are gained by complimentary comments regarding the Thai people and Thailand on these forums. In big movies that have included Thailand in the story lines, they usually only show the bar areas that of course gives the semblance that the whole country is like that. Even one of my American cousins who lives in the States says; in Thailand you are never far from a brothel and she refuses to believe otherwise.

It`s not only Chiang Mai, but rather the whole country that is given the negative by many foreigners living abroad and considering most of the derogatory comments on these threads plus how Thailand is depicted by the foreign media, it is no wonder those who don`t live in Thailand think Thailand is the pits.

There is a lot to what you are saying, but I find many Thaivisa members post a lot of positives about Thailand. I certainly do, but if I find

negatives, I will also post them.

It is well known about my opinion of Thai drivers, motorbike riders, and the Thai authorities who in my opinion, give us expats too many

hoops to go through. but I find the positives always outweigh the negatives.

[manarak]

For some reason I never really get what the OP describes..

People don't e-mail me with any horrors, and also in person people don't seem to think I'm here for anything nefarious or illegal.

Mesquite added: "I had an American tourist in Thailand ask me why I lived here, what are you, a pedophile?"..

I think I would just be perplexed by something like that.. Also my response would likely be that she's here too.. Why did she visit, is she a pedophile?.. That would likely be my response.

As an aside though, I don't blame people in general who have been somewhat brainwashed by media reports (though there is a strong decline in these compared to 10-15 years ago) to be pro-active about potential child abuse. They're trying to do the right thing for society, so I can have some understanding of that.

I got such treatment!

I got harassed by two UK women because they deemed my GF to be too young, I should be ashamed of myself, etc.

I was 39 yo and my GF 32 at the time ?

Yes, it's very easy, there are many UK 39 year old guys who look over fifty, and many thirty two year old Thai girls who could easily pass as teenagers.

Was your GF at the time a Thai girl?

Only three weeks ago, when I was in Pattaya, a very young looking Thai woman whose head only reached my chest asked "go with you", I said "go home, you are far too young",

she said "I am thirty five".

can't understand people who turn down girls just because they are/look like they are 20 yo.

yes, my GF was Thai at that moment, and no, I don't look old, rather the opposite, most people guess my age 3-4 years younger than I actually am. My GF too, BTW.

So what the two 50 year olds from the UK saw was a guy who looked 35yo being with a girl looking 28yo (but they obviously thought she was underage) and could not hold back with their comments.

[Johnny S]

orang37 : Yes, you are in denial ... but nice that you love your choice of home

I live in CM too and like some things here but are really turned off by others (e.g. traffic, smog etc.) - Possbily TW and I will try some another places in Thailand that could fit us better but dont know ...

TW will probably look very strange at me when I´m gonna suggest : "Lets try Vietnam" even tho she have been there one time and loved it ... with the way Thailand is going it will probably come to that

[northernphil]

If I am sitting in my local pub out here in the provinces and a mate comes in I always say " Sawasdee kap ferlung " to which I get a wai followed by " Sawasdeekap ferlung " The Thais laugh and it is all good fun. Oh you will note ferlung ,I have never heard the word farang in the past 10 years. But then I don't mix with tourists who may say falang.

[Tywais]

Off topic and argumentative posts removed. Will continue removing the debate on farang as being off topic.

[NancyL]

At the risk of turning this into another thread about the term "farang" yes there are Thai people who consider it a perjorative. Or at least a coarse word. Kind of like referring to the Uighur refugees as breeding animals (i.e. "litters" of children)

Are you talking about people in a specific demographic that I might never have come accross? I know a few Thai professionals - i.e. middle-class in the American sense - but nobody you would call the middle-class in the English public school sense.

Because I just find it hard to believe that my partner of almost 10 years, all of my neighbours, the local couple who I consider to be our best friends in the world, my landlord and my lawyer all occasionally refer to me in the third person using a derogatory term. I really can't believe it is a strong as the "litters" slur, which produced a shaking of the head in everyone I know.

The only Thai I have ever heard express the opinion that "falang" is derogatory is my Thai teacher - and the context of that was that she had decided not to use it any more because another student had mentioned that some people (but not him personally) didn't like it.

So what kind of native speaker, in your experience, thinks it's offensive? Younger Thais with overseas educations? Older people who are more careful choosing words? In rough terms, who is it?

I'm a white English-speaking male in my thirties! I've been dying to be part of a victimised group all my life so I need to know when I can get outraged!

OK -- since you asked. When I first came to Thailand over 35 years ago, educated Thai women who spoke English very well introduced me to this word and said it was "impolite" and was used by lower-class Thai people to describe foreigners. This was back when ladies still wore hats and gloves and had shoes that matched their handbags.

In more recent times, I've been to numerous meetings with government officials and the word is simply not used to describe medical care or visas for foreign retirees. For one thing, they're concerned with policies that affect Japanese and Korean retirees, too!

On a more casual note -- a couple times I've been called upon to see a foreign patient in Suan Dok hospital. Upon arriving, I check in with a head nurse who may ask another person where the particular patient is located. Every so often the nurse will slip and ask the other person where the farang is located? The nurse will always catch herself and say "kon khai Amerigan" or whatever nationality the patient is, instead of "where is the farang" I've had this happen with at least three different nurses.

Once I was waiting to see a doctor to discuss a client's situation outside an outpatient office. A doctor I'd never seen before. When my turn came, she pointed at me from across the room and yelled "maa, farang". I was absolutely shocked. Both at being the object of pointing and with what she said. From a doctor, no less. A young, brusk doctor, but still someone who was suppose to be educated. I just sat there, wide-eyed, in shock. Eventually, the age 50-something nurse got up and came to me to apologize and say that the doctor was ready to see me.

The past few decades there has been a general coarsification of language and manners around the world. Thailand is no different. The fact that younger Thai people or cheap, condensed Thai-English dictionaries don't make the fine distinction about the F-word, doesn't mean that we have to stoop to using it.

It's up to use to elevate the general level of discourse and self-identification.

Pardon me, I have to go organize my closet so my handbags are next to their matching shoes.

Edited July 13, 2015 by NancyL

[fred Kubasa]

" ACCEPT" as in Holiday INN would ACCEPT me if I PAID ! I.,unlike yourself, am not a guest, I am a well paying, ( cash ), CUSTOMER

and ,after 11 years here, am reminded of that daily via out stretched hands !

[novo58]

Have to agree with ....Folkguitar at post #51.

Its all in the context of the use of the word and quite often in the tone in which the word is spoken .

Lets just consider the great Australian noun ...........BASTARD.

It has a multitude of meanings ( for us Aussies) ............just depends on the context and the tone .

eg,

How you going you old bastard

You are a real bastard

You bastard.....you are dead.

get out of my way you bastard.

The bastard won again

It really is you , you old bastard

One word , many different meanings............................quite often nothing to do with the dictionary definition of the word either.

Just food for thought

[emanon]

Hereby an quotation from our old wise friend, Lord Buddha :-))

Kalama Sutta

The people of Kalama asked the Buddha who to believe out of all the ascetics, sages, venerables, and holy ones who, like himself, passed through their town.

They complained that they were confused by the many contradictions they discovered in what they heard.

The Kalama Sutta, is the Buddha's reply.

· Do not believe anything on mere hearsay.

· Do not believe in traditions merely because they are old and have been handed down for many generations and in many places.

· Do not believe anything on account of rumors, or because people talk a great deal about it.

· Do not believe anything because you are shown the written testimony of some ancient sage.

· Do not believe in what you have fancied, thinking that, because it is extraordinary, it must have been inspired by a god or other wonderful being.

• Do not believe anything merely because presumption is in its favor, or because the custom of many years inclines you to take it as true.

· Do not believe anything merely on the authority of your teachers and priests.

· But, whatever, after thorough investigation and reflection, you find to agree with reason and experience, as conducive to the good and benefit of one and all and of the world at large, accept only that as true, and shape your life in accordance with it.

· Do not accept any doctrine from reverence, but first try it as gold is tried by fire.

· The same text, said the Buddha, must be applied to his own teachings.

I like our gold-honest wise friend, the best advice, I ever read in my life :-))

Emanon

[off road pat]

I don't particularly seek the company of other farang (but often have a coffee, beer or chat with 'em).

I don't need to eat farang food although there are plenty of options for home cooking or restaurants ( hi Marco)

I don't like the smog season but it is no real big deal to me.

I don't notice the corruption cause I don't let it affect me.

I don't feel threatened on the streets.

I don't get aggrieved by some of the "not so beautiful" sights, there are plenty of nice ones to counter them.

After 11 years, I am yet to have a boring day.

The only people who could annoy me (if I let them) are negative or just plain ignorant ex-pats.

A simple ride on the scooter around town, meeting a gorgeous, immaculately groomed Thai lady friend for lunch or coffee makes me smile (lots) and rejuvenates the soul.

Life is good in the"Rose of the North"

Yeah,.....Only people living in CM (CNX) Know.....!...

We don't have to defend the reputation of the place, Just living there is a strong enough statement...!

I couldn't care less what people say or think about CM,....I still have to have a boring day in +/- 28 years...

best regards, Off Road Pat.

Edited July 13, 2015 by off road pat

[orang37]

I think less of you because of your post.

I think less of you because of your attempt at justification.

'O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay !' .... when Thee think of me ... nought.

tongue-in-cheekily ~o:37;

[orang37]

Remember that France administered Indochina (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia) until the early 20th century.

No insulting or derogatory sense then.

FRANÇAIS ... FARANGSET ... FARANG

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Joe,

There are many who believe the word is relatively "ancient" in origin; some believe it derives from the old Persian, ferengi.

Others do believe its origins lie in what the people of the middle-east called the "Franks," the invaders from Europe, during the time of their organized rape, pillage, plunder, and genocide (aka the "crusades").

I believe it is the intention in the heart that transforms the meaning of the word.

~o:37;

[neilrob]

This is a link that was given to me by a Thai citizen with a degree from CMU in Thai language:

https://books.google.co.th/books?id=RssPMqruX6kC&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=farang+loan+word&source=bl&ots=nFRwsw6JdG&sig=DH88sogvfqIMx9Rgg7jRtzB4HVI&hl=th&sa=X&ei=zXFYVfS2B8u1uQT_kYHACw&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=farang%20loan%20word&f=false

Good reference. As pointed out there, the word farang came into Thai from Persian. The same word (with variations) has made its way into many other languages. An example is English, where the word is feringhee (+ variant spellings), also derived ultimately from Persian. According to the Oxford English Dictionary, its usage in English goes back about 400 years.

It is a convenient way of referring to people of European heritage. In Thailand it is used in a descriptive, not a pejorative, way.

[LarryBird]

Op, you're a bit delusional if you think all places have the same problems, and the same amount of problems..

In developed nations, crime statistics are a lot more accurate, as well as more crimes being reported. So, you can go dig up the dirt on your friend's city, but at least that city makes an attempt to admit it has flaws.

[orang37]

OP, your touchiness over the puerile musings of the ignorant is bewildering. An Orang soul in a human meat package must surely be more sanguine and Unperturbable? Improbably, could some remnants of the human soul be reasserting it's ugly self?

As for me, a soulless hedonist in a human meat package, I'm here for the women and the cheap Thai whisky and I resent any implications that my motives are anything but otherwise. Oh yeah, I go to temples too-- they're the best places to meet gullible women.

T

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thakkar,

"Touchiness" ? Oh, you ain't seen "touchiness" yet

We are merely inserting a few spare banderillas into the troll's carapace to keep the mob amused ... at this point.

"Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit." Aristotle

cheers, ~o:37;

Edited July 13, 2015 by orang37

[stevensg]

At the risk of turning this into another thread about the term "farang" yes there are Thai people who consider it a perjorative. Or at least a coarse word. Kind of like referring to the Uighur refugees as breeding animals (i.e. "litters" of children)

actually, after spendig nearly 5 years in Thailand, I met a Thai person who refers to foreigners by using the word "tang chart" or something similar. so, it was only after 5 years that I learned the racially neutral way to refer to foreigners.

But I am not certain that tang chart is not actually worse than farang.

Actually the term is "kon tang chart" just as the proper term for Thai people is "kon Thai" not Thais. It's a little bit rude for us to talk about "the Thais" rather than "the Thai people". In the Thai language, the word "Thai" is an adjective, not a noun.

And Manarak, I don't know why it took you five years in Thailand to meet a Thai person who referred to foreigners as "kon tang chart". The description is commonly used in formal Thai, for example in business and government. Or if you listen to the news on TV. It is a neutral term, certainly not a pejorative!

hmmm... are you one of the very rare women with asperger's ?

(I am an aspie)

I made my comment of "tang chart" being potentially worse than farang a little tongue in cheek about reverse racism, because "tang chart" could be anyone, while farang is used for caucasians.

Not really, they call me farang too.

When I met a friend of my brother in law she say "XXX told her his sister marrying a farang and invited her to the wedding dinner"

That was 7 years ago.

[orang37]

Op, you're a bit delusional if you think all places have the same problems, and the same amount of problems..

In developed nations, crime statistics are a lot more accurate, as well as more crimes being reported. So, you can go dig up the dirt on your friend's city, but at least that city makes an attempt to admit it has flaws.

Evidently, you interpret my words to mean I assert a comparison of "magnitude of types of evil" implies some kind of metaphysical "equaity."

What I said to my "shocked" friend was an attempt to reflect back to them the fact of their paying so much attention to one evil act in Chiang Mai, while not paying attention to the glut of evil acts in their own hometown.

Then, you imply that you can infer from the fact that a city has statistics on "evil" available, that somehow the city is "making an attempt to admit is has flaws."

That is an interesting idea: that a city has a kind of collective persona. So, if I visit Chicago, which has murder rates approaching those in war zones, I should feel more secure because Chicago, at least, owns up to the problem ?

While respecting your interpretations, I struggle to understand them.

~o:37;

[Thakkar]

OP, your touchiness over the puerile musings of the ignorant is bewildering. An Orang soul in a human meat package must surely be more sanguine and Unperturbable? Improbably, could some remnants of the human soul be reasserting it's ugly self?

As for me, a soulless hedonist in a human meat package, I'm here for the women and the cheap Thai whisky and I resent any implications that my motives are anything but otherwise. Oh yeah, I go to temples too-- they're the best places to meet gullible women.

T

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Thakkar,

"Touchiness" ? Oh, you ain't seen "touchiness" yet

We are merely inserting a few spare banderillas into the troll's carapace to keep the mob amused ... at this point.

"Humor is the only test of gravity, and gravity of humor; for a subject which will not bear raillery is suspicious, and a jest which will not bear serious examination is false wit." Aristotle

cheers, ~o:37;

Thank you, Orang37. I'm no longer bewildered. Revelation is edifying. I shall postpone my scheduled temple visit and sit back to enjoy the spectacle that's been proded.

With the bear market raging in Shanghai, I crave some bull.

T

[stuurman]

(In Malaysia they don't have this problem, they call us all European, which can have an underlying meaning of questioning, affectionate, humorous, condescending, derisive and much, much more, depending on......).

I have lived in Malaysia for several years and was never called "European". They called me Mat Salleh, which comes from mad sailor, or Ang Moh, red haired (even though my hair is grey). All in good spirits and I never thought much of it. Edited July 13, 2015 by stuurman

[Trujillo]

Why has this topic been allowed to be railroaded for so long?

The topic surrounds:

I just have to say that when I get an e-mail from an old friend describing some evil thing (human trafficking of women in the most recent case) they have read about on a web news-site, or in their newspaper ... that happened in Chiang Mai ... and, then they ask me a question about that ...

I get p*##ed off. I want to "defend" Chiang Mai.

It has NOTHING to do with the term farang. <deleted>?

This thread is supposed to be about defending CM from media bias and accusations that portray the city in an (unfairly) negative light.

[LarryBird]

Orang,

Were you aware that most Thais think it is ok to hit your wife? I'm curious if you've ever looked at the domestic abuse statistics. Or, given the reputation of the police force around here, what kind of role that plays in frequencies of crimes, their investigations, and justice in general. One can only wonder what kind of effect that has on things here...

[worgeordie]

If "Farang" was the worst name i was called,it would not worry me one jot.

when anybody "disses" Chiang Mai (sounds like a gang term),it would not bother me

either,freedom of speech and all that,Chiang Mai is not perfect,but neither

am I ,nothing is,for many people. good bye, the Farang.

regards worgeordie

Edited July 13, 2015 by worgeordie