When I hear other farangs dissing Chiang Mai ... I get irritated

[orang37]

This constant French reference that people make is laughable. The Portuguese were here centuries before the French. If you ask the average Westerner in Thailand if they knew that, they wouldn't have a clue. Then they would go on to lecture you about the French origin of "farang."

It's a bit pathetic, really.

Indeed, Khun Phrodan, the Portugese arrived in the early 16th. C.E., and thanks to their providing weapons, gunpowder, and training, the soliders of King Ramathibodi's (Phra Chetthathirat I) Ayuthya (the central Thai colonial Kingdom) were able to take back the territory that Chiang Mai (the Lanna Kingdom) had seized, which included polities as far "south" as Sukhothai and Kampaengphet, finally defeating Chiang Mai's armies in a great battle near Lampang.

However, you present no evidence that the word "Farang" came from the Portugese, specifically. Muslim traders, and Indian traders, were engaged in commerce long before the Portugese in S.E. Asia, and it is most probable they brought the word with them based on their encounter with the so-called crusaders (thugs) who called themselves "Franks."

And, then, there is the Persian hypothesis, for which there are interesting arguments. See reference to James Harris' work here: http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang1.txt

The meticulous Belgian scholar Dirk Van der Cryusse (University of Antwerp) actually went to Brazil to find documents related to the very early Portugese involvement in Thailand for his brilliant work:

Dirk Van der Cruysse (2002). Siam & the West, 1500-1700. Bangkok: Silkworm Books.ISBN 9781630411626 ... in English, translated by Michael Smithies (a world-class scholar, himself).

~o:37;

[chiang mai]

Hmm, it seems the "farang" debate has become mainstream rather than off-topic, somebody somewhere is confused so perhaps the OP may wish to refocus or rebadge his thread, perhaps.!

[Thakkar]

Add me to your diss list. I hate C M Traffic and the road system was designed by ( IMO ) a bunch of ling.

I will go to almost any length to avoid driving in C M and refuse to go anywhere other than the direct route to Central Airport.

The red songtheaws are a rip off (usually ), and the lack of pedestrian lights on the moat is a disgrace.

Yeah, that 20 baht is a real budget killer....the nerve of those guys!

55555555555555555555555 Oh you are killing me laughing at your wit.

Try 100 baht from near Thapae Gate to Immigration and that was from at least 15 songtheaws- scum sucking robbers all. Up to me I'd nuke the whole place and start again.

You stopped more than 15 songtheaws and negotiated with each of them? Well, that explains the traffic back up!

T

[phrodan]

This constant French reference that people make is laughable. The Portuguese were here centuries before the French. If you ask the average Westerner in Thailand if they knew that, they wouldn't have a clue. Then they would go on to lecture you about the French origin of "farang."

It's a bit pathetic, really.

Indeed, Khun Phrodan, the Portugese arrived in the early 16th. C.E., and thanks to their providing weapons, gunpowder, and training, the soliders of King Ramathibodi's (Phra Chetthathirat I) Ayuthya (the central Thai colonial Kingdom) were able to take back the territory that Chiang Mai (the Lanna Kingdom) had seized, which included polities as far "south" as Sukhothai and Kampaengphet, finally defeating Chiang Mai's armies in a great battle near Lampang.

However, you present no evidence that the word "Farang" came from the Portugese, specifically. Muslim traders, and Indian traders, were engaged in commerce long before the Portugese in S.E. Asia, and it is most probable they brought the word with them based on their encounter with the so-called crusaders (thugs) who called themselves "Franks."

And, then, there is the Persian hypothesis, for which there are interesting arguments. See reference to James Harris' work here: http://thai.hawaii.edu/thaiarc/farang-gwyn/farang1.txt

The meticulous Belgian scholar Dirk Van der Cryusse (University of Antwerp) actually went to Brazil to find documents related to the very early Portugese involvement in Thailand for his brilliant work:

Dirk Van der Cruysse (2002). Siam & the West, 1500-1700. Bangkok: Silkworm Books.ISBN 9781630411626 ... in English, translated by Michael Smithies (a world-class scholar, himself).

~o:37;

You didn't read the link, did you Khun orang37?

[orang37]

You didn't read the link, did you Khun orang37?

Sawasdee Khrup, Khun Phrodan,

I did not read the link, and I regret that I didn't because, now, having read it, I find the content very interesting. The book it refers to is one I plan to acquire, if I can find it. Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

However, the French were involved with Thailand about one century after the Portugese, not several. I'd say the reason you "hear so much about the French" rather the Portugese is the fact that the drama of the dialogue, the great detente created by King Narai with France, encouraged/assisted by the clever Phaulcon led to the first "attempted rape" by a western colonial power of the Kingdom of Ayuthya (itself a great colonial power).

And, the fall of Narai, and Phaulcon, is one of the great psychodramas of Thai history. Not to mention the extortion of territory (east of the Mekong, and in what is now western Cambodia) at cannon-muzzle in 1893 by the French when they brought war-ships up the Chao Phraya, and threatened to blow-up the Grand Palace, which sent King Rama V into an episode of illness and depression that many thought he would not survive. Another great turning point of Thai history which directly led to many profound changes in Thai education, in control by the central Thai power of Lanna (the removal of the old aristocracies and the institution of the Monthon system).

It's fascinating to note that cognates of the word "farang" occur even in Polynesian, not to mention Khmer (barang), Urdu (and from Urdu into Hindi). Indian traders maintained an entrepot on what is now the south-eastern coast of Vietnam (Oc Eo) as early as the 1st. century C.E. (trading Roman Empire goods on to China, and Chinese goods back west !).

We'll probably never know precisely what magical serendipity resulted in the transmission of "farang"

cheers, ~o:37;

[LarryBird]

Redqualia, you only choose Thailand at this stage in your life. As a person who earned his money in probably America, it is a bit hypocritical to say how awful it is given the lifestyle you afford here wouldn't be the same as if you were born here.

[kungpao]

I don't like Chiang Mai cause of to many tourist.Also because of the smog.So many places better than that is.

If you like it good for you.It's not for me.

it felt crowded when my wife and I went there in January 2014. Traffic and claustrophobic. But there are great advantages. Prefer the countryside. Most of the time.

[Rancid]

While feeling that the swarm of digressions, and reactions, around the phosphorescent glimmer turned arc-light-glare given out by this thread has grown so large it's probably over-ripe ...

I just would like to register my personal opinion that it is possible to live here, in Chiang Mai, to be soberly aware of the problems of this society, economic, political, social, cultural, to not be naive about what the Police do and don't do here, and to have deep compassion for the waste of human potential here, deep concern for the abuses that occur here ... and to be without the "moral relativism" that says: "if it happens everywhere, then it's all the same ..."

... and ... to treasure the rich heritage of this dynamic multi-ethnic culture, to enjoy the positive aspects of Thai social life ... and, if you learn to speak the language, and live outside the "farang ghettoes," to really treasure the warmth, good humor, and honesty of "ordinary" Thais.

To love this place, "warts and all."

cheers, ~o:37;

This seems a realistic way to interpret the place, you can still like it even without the rose tinted glasses.

[orang37]

t's not about me. Try to stay on topic

Perhaps you might consider showing by example the behavior you wish others to exhibit ?

I've asked the moderators to close this thread; and, I regret having started it.

~o:37;

[Rimmer]

Off topic and bickering posts removed, please stop discussing America and Europe the topic is about Chiang Mai

[Tywais]

Topic closed at OP's request.