State Of Emergency In Thailand

[merlion]

In Singapore on the way to meet up in London. Tell the Mrs. to pick-up a book about running an efficient government and building a successful country while she's there in Singapore. Thailand is so close yet can't learn a thing from a prosperous island country with 40 years under its belt? With such resources Thailand has the potential to kick Singapore and Malaysia's asses!

Let's hope this next government does better. No more masking a corrupt government behind the word 'democracy'. It seems these days that the word is overused and abused.

Indeed, the thai economy grew exponentially after the last coup in 1991, and hopefully the same would happen this time round.

[PuaSai]

In America, there are only two parties regardless of the illusion that is portrayed. The first time the current administration was elected was a sham... The world saw it. It then perpetuated into another 4 years of the same. "For the people, by the people" except the electoral college can take that popular vote away. I think that part of our election process is antiquated.

Sorry you seem to think i am referring to the american way of electing and i’m not. I live in Denmark and here we have several parties to chose from and the process of electing are far better than in the states. The main problem in the states is that the one with the most money often win as they can buy TV time etc. Here we have laws garding that the media is not biast against any parties and make shure that all partyes get the same amount of TV time in an election.

I’m not saying that the Thai democracy was a perfect one but it is better than the alternative that is now. Because what will happen now is that Thailand must start over from square one on rebuilding a democracy instead of improving the current one.

As powerful a situation this was, it was done quietly and peacefully and my wife did not even know it had happened until I called her from Iraq of all places because the story was picked up on Kurdish television. I believe if this was tried while Thaskin was in his quarters, you would have seen some bloodshed. Try to look at it from that perspective. Lets just hope that the Thai people do benefit from it. All we can do.

Edited September 20, 2006 by PuaSai

[Johpa]

Thaksin's wife and kids are now safely in Singapore...

On Orchard Road, shopping?

I hope the lot of them end up on Desker RD working.

[merlion]

Thaksin's wife and kids are now safely in Singapore...

On Orchard Road, shopping?

I hope the lot of them end up on Desker RD working.

Fat hope! They would most probably buy a hundred or more ultra luxurious condos in Singapore, with rolls royces and club memberships thrown in.

[thailanddave]

I have been following all this with great interest. I lived in Thaiand during the Thaksin years from 2001-2003. I don't claim to know the right or best way. These are just random observations.

Most of the expats didnt like Thaksin, not for his politics, but because he changed the drinking hours at bars. They didn't really look at what he was doing to or with the country. Most don't have a clue.

What was the biggest problem Thailand had when he arrived on the scene? Ya Ba. I read that nearly every Thai family was affected in some way or another by the drug epidemic. When I spoke to average Thais about it, they were eternally grateful that he tried to stop this menace.

He gave a lot of money to the rural people where poverty is the worst. Granted, he gave it to them at the expense of the rest of the country. If you were poor and struggling and suddenly the new govt wanted to help you, would you be grateful? Especially if no govt in the past had lifted a finger to assist you. The fact that there are more poor people in Thailand than rich explains a lot of his power. If he is helping the overwheliming majority of the population, isn't that what he was elected to do? I wish we had 30 baht or even $30 health care in the US.

He changed the rules so he could profit by them. Maybe it wasn't right but could you expect any different from any businessman? He changed the rules on cellular so his company would thrive. Do you think if Donald Trump was rujning the country he would do any less?

He let his friends and cronies profit from the Thai public works like the airport. This is why people get into politics. Does the fact that Haliburton (Dick Cheney's Company) was the only company allowed in Iraq seem any different to you? Who is paying for this? The average American Citizen and his taxes. My country, the US does exactly the same thing only they do it on a grander scale.

Thailand is full of corruption and the US is lily white. Are you forgetting Enron, MCI and the reasons for Sarbox? International corruption pales when compared to US corruption. When we do stuff we do it right and we do it big.

Thai democracy is tainted and the US is the pinnacle. Does anyone remember that Al Gore actually won the Presidency? Hanging Chad is not a rock group.

I am in the mortgage ndustry. The abuses I see happening right now, today tell me you are going to see the American people get robbed once again of their pension funds as big banking takes their piece of the pie. Just as Thaksin does but we're talking Trillions of dollars, not millions of baht.

I am proud to be an American because I can criticize the failures of my govt without fear of reprisal. But never for a minute do I get on my soapbox to put down another country like Thailand. Most Americans not only believe ours is the best way, its the only way. Thats not true. there are many different ways to skin a cat and many different ways to govern that work. Ours may be the best way given that we sit on the largest deposits of natural resources in the world. It may not work in countries who have less.

Thaksin was a lot of undesirable things, but I dont think he was as blatantly evil as some portray him.

[LaoPo]

fascinating analysis of the coup here

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/09/20/news/edbowring.php

international herald tribune.

dont think i agree with it.

1. fascinating indeed, Tax!

2. I doubt if many readers here have read the same (yet)...unfortunately ; but hopefully that will change.

3. Agree or not? Hmmm...fascinating indeed; but: the writer (Philip Bowring International Herald Tribune) can write what we cannot...

But: absolutely one of the most fasinating articles so far about the coup and the future of Thailand.

LaoPo

[Misty]

message deleted

Edited September 20, 2006 by Misty

[gburns57au]

I have been following all this with great interest. I lived in Thaiand during the Thaksin years from 2001-2003. I don't claim to know the right or best way. These are just random observations.

Most of the expats didnt like Thaksin, not for his politics, but because he changed the drinking hours at bars. They didn't really look at what he was doing to or with the country. Most don't have a clue.

What was the biggest problem Thailand had when he arrived on the scene? Ya Ba. I read that nearly every Thai family was affected in some way or another by the drug epidemic. When I spoke to average Thais about it, they were eternally grateful that he tried to stop this menace.

He gave a lot of money to the rural people where poverty is the worst. Granted, he gave it to them at the expense of the rest of the country. If you were poor and struggling and suddenly the new govt wanted to help you, would you be grateful? Especially if no govt in the past had lifted a finger to assist you. The fact that there are more poor people in Thailand than rich explains a lot of his power. If he is helping the overwheliming majority of the population, isn't that what he was elected to do? I wish we had 30 baht or even $30 health care in the US.

Lets start with the bar situation....

Most ex pats didnt like him not because of the operating hours of bars.....but because most of them knew that big business and politics dont mix...and they knew what it would lead to.

The drug crackdown resulted in a lot of deaths that could not be established as drug related...and it has not diminished the drug trade in Thailand.

Last but not least....He was voted in after promising to give each village in Thailand 1mTHB, if that is not blatant vote buying, I dont know what is....The problem was that the money was not a gimme...it was a loan that had to paid back...many people lost property back to the government when they couldnt repay this gift.

Something had to happen to resolve the situation there and while it is not the preferred choice of most world leaders...it may just be the thing that Thailand needed...time will tell and nothing we say here will alter the current situation...all we can do is sit back and hope that things work out well in the end.

[tomyummer]

I have been following all this with great interest. I lived in Thaiand during the Thaksin years from 2001-2003. I don't claim to know the right or best way. These are just random observations.

Most of the expats didnt like Thaksin, not for his politics, but because he changed the drinking hours at bars. They didn't really look at what he was doing to or with the country. Most don't have a clue.

What was the biggest problem Thailand had when he arrived on the scene? Ya Ba. I read that nearly every Thai family was affected in some way or another by the drug epidemic. When I spoke to average Thais about it, they were eternally grateful that he tried to stop this menace.

He gave a lot of money to the rural people where poverty is the worst. Granted, he gave it to them at the expense of the rest of the country. If you were poor and struggling and suddenly the new govt wanted to help you, would you be grateful? Especially if no govt in the past had lifted a finger to assist you. The fact that there are more poor people in Thailand than rich explains a lot of his power. If he is helping the overwheliming majority of the population, isn't that what he was elected to do? I wish we had 30 baht or even $30 health care in the US.

He changed the rules so he could profit by them. Maybe it wasn't right but could you expect any different from any businessman? He changed the rules on cellular so his company would thrive. Do you think if Donald Trump was rujning the country he would do any less?

He let his friends and cronies profit from the Thai public works like the airport. This is why people get into politics. Does the fact that Haliburton (Dick Cheney's Company) was the only company allowed in Iraq seem any different to you? Who is paying for this? The average American Citizen and his taxes. My country, the US does exactly the same thing only they do it on a grander scale.

Thailand is full of corruption and the US is lily white. Are you forgetting Enron, MCI and the reasons for Sarbox? International corruption pales when compared to US corruption. When we do stuff we do it right and we do it big.

Thai democracy is tainted and the US is the pinnacle. Does anyone remember that Al Gore actually won the Presidency? Hanging Chad is not a rock group.

I am in the mortgage ndustry. The abuses I see happening right now, today tell me you are going to see the American people get robbed once again of their pension funds as big banking takes their piece of the pie. Just as Thaksin does but we're talking Trillions of dollars, not millions of baht.

I am proud to be an American because I can criticize the failures of my govt without fear of reprisal. But never for a minute do I get on my soapbox to put down another country like Thailand. Most Americans not only believe ours is the best way, its the only way. Thats not true. there are many different ways to skin a cat and many different ways to govern that work. Ours may be the best way given that we sit on the largest deposits of natural resources in the world. It may not work in countries who have less.

Thaksin was a lot of undesirable things, but I dont think he was as blatantly evil as some portray him.

ThailandDave, you've hit it on the nail baby! Although I may disagree a little on your final statement. Let's just say he was a good provider to his family....er...and friends. Definitely gets my vote as 'Father of the Year'...or Best Man in my wedding party!

[Souch]

What's the word on the street Bankonians?

I understood Wednesday was to be a holiday with banks and government offices closed but what about the rest of the business?

Most important is Nana Plaza and Soi Cowboy still a go?

[blam]

I have been following all this with great interest. I lived in Thaiand during the Thaksin years from 2001-2003. I don't claim to know the right or best way. These are just random observations

Very nice, however the cost of each one of Thaksin's policies was too high, by anyone's standard. The hard core policeman in him discounted the collateral damage as always 'acceptable', no matter what was lost. D@mn the torpedos full speed ahead.

Most of the people that lost their lives in the extra judicial ya-ba murders were innocent family members, usually just bystanders when an informant (on a policeman in most cases) was violently terminated. Himself a policeman with a terrible agenda, again, not at all a man with a good idea.

Look, the guy created a regime. It was not a democracy in any way shape or form. Even the electorial commitee members were corrupted Thaksin supporters, hello? They're now in jail!

How does the guy say to everyone in the country, including tourists and foreign workers, that they MUST pay their taxes, VAT, income, or whatever; then uses a self manipulated loophole to escape paying taxes on what amounts to 1% of the GNP?

The hospital system is on its way to a debt ridden nightmare, the 'Gold Card' system in itself should have been enough to indict Thaksin as a corrupt charlatan, the Thai people will be paying for that boondoggle for 40 years. Again, not a man with a good idea, just a manipulating b@stard that could care less about what damage was coming in the future, after he had long exited the scene.

The hand of power acted as emperor, not Prime Minister. What you think of as Internet service, what you think of as telephone service, what you think of as television service, Thaksin created an intense level of uselessness. If you want it to work, you just pay me, Thaksin's motto. Mafia. yep sounds like a mafia to me. And, there was absolutely no responsiblity when the shifty-shafter finally got busted and was told to step down.

Yeah, the educated Thais hated this guy's lying guts. 'Sherriff of Nottingham" come to mind? Don't fall for the surface rhetoric, all lies. Watch me pull a rabbit out my hat, as I steal your wallet, or your LIFE. In the end, the guy was just another low life corrupt Chiang Mai cop.

Breathe easier tonight thailanddave.

Edited September 20, 2006 by blam

[M&M]

My miserable 2 satang's worth:

My first visit here was over 25 years ago, and I have lived here most of the time now for the last 20 years; 19 years in the North, now in Phuket. I am proud to say that I have given this country and local communities far more than I have ever taken.

Thailand before Thaksin? Does anyone remember?

Thaksin has destroyed this country. Fascism in the name of progress. What we see now is a ghost, or just a shell, of what Thailand was 10 years ago. Thaksin's form of democracy made democracy into a terrible thing; absolute power corrupts absolutely. There was no real democracy at all, the 'landslide' votes were generated by a fantastically well financed and organized roots level money distribution and propaganda machine.

Someone mentioned that the coup, and the lead up to it, were financed by the alcohol and tobacco industries. Of course, they were just a small example of those who were opposed to the TRT, BUT the sheer amounts of corruption by Thai Rak Thai, and the amount of uncontestable control mongering, became simply astounding, overwhelming, and impossible to ignore. I'm talking about the unheard of amounts of money generated, and accrued, by the fellow school classmates of Thaksin, his cabinet members, the TRT party heads, Thaksin's family,and the Thai/Chinese community in general, it is completely beyond belief, and actually had become illegal to question. The rich get so rich that they can pay the poor to vote for them and carry their flag, it's just that simple.

These guys that pulled the transition: They knew what they were doing, they knew who would support them, and it seems to me today that they realized how to do it in the least harmful way. They did their homework and the timing was perfect. There is huge public support at the moment.

I for one, as a very long term Thailand resident, hope that the Thaksin years will become a distant reminder of how someone can corruptively control not just government, but basically everything, to generate even more wealth and power... if he has enough money to pay for it. It's an old story throughout history of course. This time it's our legacy to repair.

I admire the people that finally stood up to say, 'I've had enough and I can't take it any more!" A totally corrupt democracy, filthy, dirty and filled lies and death, is not a democracy at all. If someone has anything to say about that, I will just say that you haven't lived here in Prathet Thai long enough to know and understand. Thailand WILL become a better place.

'Old and in the way' in Phuket

HERE HERE!! I think this guy knows his SH*T!! Well said man. My only hope now is TL can move upward and onward.

Without TaKSiN

[cheeseeater]

Just came accross this article on the BBC website

Not sure if I agree with the points made, there doesn't seem to be anywhere near enough detail involved in the answers. From what I've heard from home, the British media are really making a meal of this situation. Sensationalist headlines like "Brits in Terror" and photos of the tanks on the streets alongside people throwing Molotov cocktails in Hungary put together etc. Anything like that in other countries?

[OliG]

thailanddave, I understand your point but it doesn't make it right!!!!!

the comments from others that corruption is just the way things are here in Thailand don't stick either. If you have heaps of cash and know the general your alright jack, if your working hard but earn very little then life is very different. I'm sure many of the bar owner in Sukemvitt will agree with me as they pay out a major portion of their profits to the police for legit businesses to stay open. There will always be some kind of corruption in the world but we should at least try and minimize it.

I spoke to a couple of local Thai's tonight and they love Taksin, when I mentioned some of the majors scams he had been involved in they were not even aware of them. His control of the media and press in Thailand was probably a major factor to this, ask any reporter for the Bangkok Post or Nation and they will confirm this. Look what happened to the reporter last year who wrote the story about his sale of shares to his son. If anyone knows what happened to him, I would like to know.

As for Taksin's money, didn't anyone read the papers from earlier this year of all his offshore accounts???

[mittheimp]

I have been following all this with great interest. I lived in Thaiand during the Thaksin years from 2001-2003. I don't claim to know the right or best way. These are just random observations.

Most of the expats didnt like Thaksin, not for his politics, but because he changed the drinking hours at bars. They didn't really look at what he was doing to or with the country. Most don't have a clue.

What was the biggest problem Thailand had when he arrived on the scene? Ya Ba. I read that nearly every Thai family was affected in some way or another by the drug epidemic. When I spoke to average Thais about it, they were eternally grateful that he tried to stop this menace.

He gave a lot of money to the rural people where poverty is the worst. Granted, he gave it to them at the expense of the rest of the country. If you were poor and struggling and suddenly the new govt wanted to help you, would you be grateful? Especially if no govt in the past had lifted a finger to assist you. The fact that there are more poor people in Thailand than rich explains a lot of his power. If he is helping the overwheliming majority of the population, isn't that what he was elected to do? I wish we had 30 baht or even $30 health care in the US.

He changed the rules so he could profit by them. Maybe it wasn't right but could you expect any different from any businessman? He changed the rules on cellular so his company would thrive. Do you think if Donald Trump was rujning the country he would do any less?

He let his friends and cronies profit from the Thai public works like the airport. This is why people get into politics. Does the fact that Haliburton (Dick Cheney's Company) was the only company allowed in Iraq seem any different to you? Who is paying for this? The average American Citizen and his taxes. My country, the US does exactly the same thing only they do it on a grander scale.

Thailand is full of corruption and the US is lily white. Are you forgetting Enron, MCI and the reasons for Sarbox? International corruption pales when compared to US corruption. When we do stuff we do it right and we do it big.

Thai democracy is tainted and the US is the pinnacle. Does anyone remember that Al Gore actually won the Presidency? Hanging Chad is not a rock group.

I am in the mortgage ndustry. The abuses I see happening right now, today tell me you are going to see the American people get robbed once again of their pension funds as big banking takes their piece of the pie. Just as Thaksin does but we're talking Trillions of dollars, not millions of baht.

I am proud to be an American because I can criticize the failures of my govt without fear of reprisal. But never for a minute do I get on my soapbox to put down another country like Thailand. Most Americans not only believe ours is the best way, its the only way. Thats not true. there are many different ways to skin a cat and many different ways to govern that work. Ours may be the best way given that we sit on the largest deposits of natural resources in the world. It may not work in countries who have less.

Thaksin was a lot of undesirable things, but I dont think he was as blatantly evil as some portray him.

I don't know! I would say being responsible for 2000+ extra judicial killings is pretty evil - no one of any substance or status was caught during this purge - it just served to increase Thaksins hegemonic control!

Have you seen Thaksin arriving at Gatwick, waving and smiling to the press like a returning hero - perhaps his ego is so out of control he hasn't sussed the situation yet!

[ding]

...Sensationalist headlines like "Brits in Terror" and photos of the tanks on the streets alongside people throwing Molotov cocktails in Hungary put together etc. ...

Seriuosly? Wow. That's troubling.

Nah, CNN is frothing about Hugo Chavez calling Bush the Devil. Yawn, next?

[cheeseeater]

...Sensationalist headlines like "Brits in Terror" and photos of the tanks on the streets alongside people throwing Molotov cocktails in Hungary put together etc. ...

Seriuosly? Wow. That's troubling.

Nah, CNN is frothing about Hugo Chavez calling Bush the Devil. Yawn, next?

Sorry, just reading my original post and it seems a little misleading. I didn't mean photos put together as in Photoshopped together, just put side by side on the page. This maybe obvious to some, but it may not be to others.

Edited to say: Off-topic, but Chavez may well be my favourite political leader for saying things that make me laugh.

Edited September 20, 2006 by cheeseeater

[bkkandrew]

fruitbatt

If you believe in such utter twaddle as the existence of stereotypical "national characteristics" perhaps you are living in the wrong century, my friend. This is outdated anthropology-speak worthy of Margaret Mead in the early 20th century. It is also racist bullsh*t and contravenes rule 3 of ThaiVisa.

then how do you account for the fact that thais think , believe and react differently to americans , who in turn think , believe and react differently to pakistanis , who in turn think , believe and react differently to ....etc.etc.etc.

why is it racist to suggest that those brought up in a rural thai village environment will have characteristics of behaviour and values and ways of dealing with things that differ from people brought up in inner city london.

they are called cultural differences. its not racist. its not derogatory. its fact.

we are not all the same on this planet , and when one group of people have to deal with or understand another group , it pays to study the national characteristics of that other group.

the article 'the thai national characteristics" is a well written thesis , that goes a long way to explaining why thais think , behave and react as they do , and why attributes that we think of as negative are seen as positive by thais and vice versa.

is it racist or unfashionably 20th century to describe the thais as "smiling" or the british as "reticent"

God, I thought I would never agree with you an anything, but you have this one spot-on!

[bkkandrew]

What's the word on the street Bankonians?

I understood Wednesday was to be a holiday with banks and government offices closed but what about the rest of the business?

Most important is Nana Plaza and Soi Cowboy still a go?

Had a great night in Cowboy tonight. Just got home actually... Shutting the office tomorrow though

[thailanddave]

My responses to those who responded to me are going to seem incongruent but I do believe they reflect reality and are not idealistic.

Bribes are a way of life in SEA. The starting pay for a cop is 6500 baht per month. My bar tabs run more than that in a single night. The bar owners don't like paying it but they greatly prefer it to the insurance payments it would cost to run a similar establishment in the US. It also provides them a way to have shows that are more profitable than those who don't pay.

I ran a non-bar, non-girl type business in Pattaya. I asked my lawyer about payoffs and he said as long as I didn't break any laws, I wouldn't have to pay any. He was right. Nobody ever asked me for a baht.

Extra judicial killings? I think due process is more the problem you are upset with. The police are fully aware of a drug dealers identy. He pays the cop to look the other way and make sure he doesn't get busted. When the crack down came, most of the killings were drug dealers by their patron cops. They didn't want to chance getting ratted out. Corrupt? Yes. But see above for explanations. Its the way it works.

Nobody seemed to mind when they were killing Russian mafia types in cold blood to discourage them from taking over.

I think you will find most of the tea money for bars is on a schedule and does not vary too much from place to place. The bar owners I know consider it more of a tax and all pay approximately the same amount. All would rather not pay it but all would rather pay it than not do business in Thailand. Otherwise they wouldn't do business in Thailand.

As Istated before, it may not be the best system but it is a system that works and has for years. Without it the entertainment districts would look like most American cities. BORING. If Thailand adopted all the rules and laws of the US or Great Britain, none of us would want to live there. Might as well go home.

Health care not working? I don't know of a system that does. Millions don't have insurance in the US. I hear that countries with socialized medicine are plagued with problems. 30 baht isnt enough to keep the system financially viable but how much can you expect to charge someone who earns 1000 baht per month? Altough it didnt work financially, it worked for a lot of people who needed healthcare. I can't think of hardly any govt programs that work perfectly out of the gate. It was a start.

I ask you, if you had the abiity to make a law so you didn't have to pay taxes but everyone else would, who among us would do the right thing and pay anyway?

He took extreme advantage of the system. Unfortunately he was smart enough to do it legally or changed the laws to make it legal. He had legally consolidated power enough that the only way they could get rid of him was a coup. Its the reason why they have made the new constitution void.

[kayo]

blimey. Only 11000 views of the last word thread, but this one has 37 k thousand already! They should do this more often. Google are prob laughing at the ad revenue. Rain thread still in the lead with 55,600 views..

[nikster]

...Sensationalist headlines like "Brits in Terror" and photos of the tanks on the streets alongside people throwing Molotov cocktails in Hungary put together etc. ...

Seriuosly? Wow. That's troubling.

Nah, CNN is frothing about Hugo Chavez calling Bush the Devil. Yawn, next?

[One reason I don't watch CNN - can't stand the pain...]

I seriously disagree with what seems to be the western media's consensus analysis: That Thailand is hereby thrown back in development. No one seems to understand that the coup was a symptom, not the cause. The system was failing completely thanks to Thaksin... and a variety of other reasons that let him do it _before_ the coup.

Looks like everyone in the west thought that Thailand is like Germany only with hill tribe costumes instead of lederhosens.

[kayo]

...Sensationalist headlines like "Brits in Terror" and photos of the tanks on the streets alongside people throwing Molotov cocktails in Hungary put together etc. ...

Seriuosly? Wow. That's troubling.

Nah, CNN is frothing about Hugo Chavez calling Bush the Devil. Yawn, next?

[One reason I don't watch CNN - can't stand the pain...]

I seriously disagree with what seems to be the western media's consensus analysis: That Thailand is hereby thrown back in development. No one seems to understand that the coup was a symptom, not the cause.

Seems more like a Cure than a symptom to me

[hhlimhh]

Bloodless coup. I am not suprise given the party overthrown is TRT. Their supporter are not that aggresive unlike the Democrats or the militants in the southern region. Hopefully, with TRT overthrown, the southern will return to peace.

This is really a black day for democracy. The economy will be shaken. You will see the property will drop sharply down in the next few months. And the future days will be getting worse as foreign investment will further drop. For those who are deciding between investing in Vietnam or Thailand, it is just so easy to decide now. Vietnam it is.

[ovenman]

You will see the property will drop sharply down in the next few months.

No you won't. You may not see much property being moved in the near-term but Thai owners would rather not sell, even if for a very long time, rather than take one satang less for their property than what they think it is worth.

[fruittbatt]

fruitbatt

If you believe in such utter twaddle as the existence of stereotypical "national characteristics" perhaps you are living in the wrong century, my friend. This is outdated anthropology-speak worthy of Margaret Mead in the early 20th century. It is also racist bullsh*t and contravenes rule 3 of ThaiVisa.

then how do you account for the fact that thais think , believe and react differently to americans , who in turn think , believe and react differently to pakistanis , who in turn think , believe and react differently to ....etc.etc.etc.

why is it racist to suggest that those brought up in a rural thai village environment will have characteristics of behaviour and values and ways of dealing with things that differ from people brought up in inner city london.

they are called cultural differences. its not racist. its not derogatory. its fact.

we are not all the same on this planet , and when one group of people have to deal with or understand another group , it pays to study the national characteristics of that other group.

the article 'the thai national characteristics" is a well written thesis , that goes a long way to explaining why thais think , behave and react as they do , and why attributes that we think of as negative are seen as positive by thais and vice versa.

is it racist or unfashionably 20th century to describe the thais as "smiling" or the british as "reticent"

Taxexile, you are confusing and conflating two separate issues. Cultural differences are quite a separate matter from the attribution of "national" characteristics. This difference is no mere semantic quibble: it is fundamental to an understanding of both sameness and difference.

Of course people think differently according to their cultural experiences, religion, age, memory, gender, family position, and a host of other variables. However, because difference is also individual, even people with similar cultural experiences have significantly different ideas and values. Hence it does not make sense to characterise all Thais as "smiling" or all Londoners as terminally reticent because of the "British stiff upper lip" or any other stereotypical explanation which discounts real differences.

"Nationalism" is a political construct. A "nation" does not exist physically as a "country" does: the nation is imaginary or symbolic - an ideology of "national" uniqueness in which "citizens" are encouraged by political rhetoric to invest their loyalty and "patriotism". The myth of nationalism is constructed out of material which is useful to engendering such feelings: a mythical golden age and common ancestry & "racial purity", where things were politically Edenic (and all Thais were smiling asparas hehe), through cultural products like patriotic songs, and poems, and stories, and histories, and media reports and anthropological studies which find what they set out to look for (surprise surprise): defining and limiting "national" characteristics.

In the context of this thread, the statement that "most Thais are corrupt by nature" suggests that "corruption" is innate, and an exclusively Thai national characteristic: an unequivocally racist statement! It also ignores the fact that many Thais are extremely concerned to crush corruption and to eradicate it from business, politics, and Buddhist institutions.

It is perhaps more helpful to point out in this connection that the cultural history and expectations of the "patron/client relationship" in South East Asian societies has enabled corruption at all levels of society, and also makes it very difficult to eradicate. The cultural dissonance between the legacy of patron/client relationship and the ideal of a corruption-free democracy is one of the sticking points in the political process in Thailand and elsewhere in SEA.

[ding]

It is perhaps more helpful to point out in this connection that the cultural history and expectations of the "patron/client relationship" in South East Asian societies has enabled corruption at all levels of society, and also makes it very difficult to eradicate. The cultural dissonance between the legacy of patron/client relationship and the ideal of a corruption-free democracy is one of the sticking points in the political process in Thailand and elsewhere in SEA.

Well put. This is my wobbling area when I look at Thaksin as a robber baron. I'm told by Thais that they regularly get paid when a political party knows the person, or family, will vote a certain way.

So, is Thaksin a Machiavellian manipulater vis-a-vis the rural? Is he using his feifdom to manipulate "democracy"?

)or(

Is he a "power to the people" leader who just happens to make an obscene profit?

I think the later is the case.

[taxexile]

In the context of this thread, the statement that "most Thais are corrupt by nature" suggests that "corruption" is innate, and an exclusively Thai national characteristic: an unequivocally racist statement! It also ignores the fact that many Thais are extremely concerned to crush corruption and to eradicate it from business, politics, and Buddhist institutions.

It is perhaps more helpful to point out in this connection that the cultural history and expectations of the "patron/client relationship" in South East Asian societies has enabled corruption at all levels of society, and also makes it very difficult to eradicate. The cultural dissonance between the legacy of patron/client relationship and the ideal of a corruption-free democracy is one of the sticking points in the political process in Thailand and elsewhere in SEA.

i agree mostly .

but ...in judging thais by western standards , most thais are seen susceptible to what we call corruption , but what thais consider something different entirely.

westerners will always judge from a western viewpoint , its difficult not too .

its not until you have lived in the east for a while or studied eastern culture extensively that you can start to understand how some of the practices that seem so wrong to us , are quite normal and correct for others.

your last sentence sums the whole situation up perfectly.

and many thanks for your lengthy and well considered argument.

[Time Traveller]

The drug crackdown resulted in a lot of deaths that could not be established as drug related...and it has not diminished the drug

Replace the word drug above with terrorism.....crony capitalists making money from government contracts.....this sounds like leader of another country.

[Plus]

I am not suprise given the party overthrown is TRT. Their supporter are not that aggresive unlike the Democrats

Yep, kind and caring - pelted Democrat honchos with eggs and thrown chairs at them in Chiang Mai, effectively making it a no-go zone. Beat up old men at Central World Plaza in full view of the police.

Where have you been at that time, hhlimmhhh?