Troublemakers in Chiang Mai

[CMHomeboy78]

Sawasdee Khrup, Esteemed Fellow Farangs, Khon Thai, and citizens of other countries,

For me, the debate about whether "Farang" is inherently pejorative is not particularly interesting for the following reasons:

0. it's too often used in ThaiVisa forums by trolls to divert threads into ad hominem mosh-pits

1. almost any word, or phrase, can be used as an insult, many words can be used as a racial epithet. Ever had somebody use "you !" as a slur ?

2. given a tonal language where minute shifts of intonation can radically alter the meaning of a word, distinguishing homophones is very difficult if you are not a native speaker, or one of the very rare foreigners here who really master Thai. Example: "Khun" with rising tone is one of the Krom (the formal system of Royal Rank), definitely not the same as the everyday "Khun" you and I hear.

3. given the modal emphasis on "apparent formal politeness" in public social discourse in Thai culture, it may be even more difficult to recognize pejorative sub-text .... unless the speaker is using the distinct very insulting first-person, second-person pronouns ... and, if they are using those with you, you will know you are really being insulted !

4. meanings of words change as languages evolve (by "evolve" I don't necessarily mean "improve"). For example, back in the days of the Kings of the Central Thai Colonial Empire (Ayutthaya) the word that is now the second-person singular very insulting pronoun in Thai (no, I am not going to use it here) was the common term for the lowest of the social classes.

5. I beg to differ with the OP here:

a. if you are going to adopt the "posture" of scholarship, to imply you are familiar with primary sources, imho you need to at least mention what your sources are.

b. general terms for Romans (Rum), far-northern Europeans (Rus), and western Europeans (Franks) were known in the Arab world even before the crusades. See the travel-journals of Ibn Khaldun (1332 – 1406) for example; by the way, it's a great read. Some of you may know the movie "13th. Warrior" is a fictional portrayal of Ibn Khaldun's visit to the Land of the Rus.

c. the major Persian presence here came a century after the time of the Portugese involvement in the early 16th. century C.E. ref.: Ayutthaya: Venice of the East by Derick Garnier and Narisa Chakrabongse ... of course, that does not exclude the possibility of earlier contact and language transmission.

5. there are a variety of scholarly opinions on the origins of "Farang," and many disagreements. while the major consensus may be that transmission was by Arab-world traders based on experience of European invaders ("Franks") during the crusades, there are many other hypotheses.

I will continue to use the word "Farang" to mean "honored guest"

cheers, ~o:37;

p.s. it is interesting to speculate if the definitely pejorative modern Thai second-person singular pronoun is related to what, in the times of the great central Thai colonial empire of Ayuthya was the term for the lowest social-economic class. ref.: "The Ayuthya Chronicles"

Thanks for your reply. Interesting as usual.

That the Persians were in Siam before the Portuguese arrived in 1511 is generally accepted, I'm sure you will agree.

[CMHomeboy78]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

The word 'farang' is not slang. It isn't now and never has been. It is a legitimate word in the Thai lexicon.

[magnacarta]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

I am from the old school so I still use all these words including the n word,what is wrong with neanderthal.

[CMHomeboy78]

When I arrived in LOS, I too was dissatisfied with the use of the word farang. Now, it has no effect upon me. From my reading, farang alludes to foreigners NOT of Asian heritage eg excludes Chinese, Koran & Japanese.

Yes, I am a foreigner.

In my natives, Japanese are called Japs; English are called Poms; New Zealanders are called Kiwis. Who cares - not me.

That sounds typical... it is usually the newcomers who take offence at the word. Live among Thais for a while and you learn that they all use it with no offence meant.

I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs, Japs, Poms and Kiwis. At best these terms are slang and certainly not the the mark of educated, polite people. What about slant-eyes, gooks, spooks, and the "n" word? Use those words often enough and soon they'll be considered OK, too, I guess.

You are totally wrong and misinformed about the type of people who use the word 'farang' .

You are bringing your western prejudices with you.

[bangmai]

I admit to being a farang, and I don't mind limited use of the word. Like yesterday, when the Songtaew driver told me "Farang Som-sip," I simply said "cannot" and that was the end of it. Never heard the word in the bank or dentist office, it does seem to be overused by the foot shuffling class of Thais and it's just repetitive and annoying. Very young kids will often repeat it over and over, like they are name calling, but you know where they learned to do that. Many of the Thai parents haven't realized that teaching their kids to speak is only half the battle; you need to teach them to shut up, too. I generally just vote with my wallet, if they are being rude, and to me that is using the word "farang" more than a couple of times in a brief encounter. I was in a small restaurant, getting some take-away, right next door to my condo, and the lady standing there must have said "farang" eight times. I didn't like the tone, even though I really didn't know what she was saying. I did know that the food wasn't good enough to have to listen to an idiot babble for five minutes. I haven't been back since, and I could just as easily been an almost daily customer.

[arunsakda]

Gaijin/Gaikokujin is another subject but in Japan you will always be addressed by name or Okyakusama or Kata (honorifics for "customer" or " this or that person" in shops, offices, etc..I'm not bothered by "Farang" itself but what does become tiresome is the constant "Farang ordered coffee, a Farang is waiting or calling, "go help the Farang", farang farang farang farang like a broken record.

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend who grew up in Poland. Her father would tell her to "Go buy (something) from the Jew on the corner". Not intended to be offensive but somewhat dehumanizing don't you think?

[NancyL]

I admit to being a farang, and I don't mind limited use of the word. Like yesterday, when the Songtaew driver told me "Farang Som-sip," I simply said "cannot" and that was the end of it. Never heard the word in the bank or dentist office, it does seem to be overused by the foot shuffling class of Thais and it's just repetitive and annoying. Very young kids will often repeat it over and over, like they are name calling, but you know where they learned to do that. Many of the Thai parents haven't realized that teaching their kids to speak is only half the battle; you need to teach them to shut up, too. I generally just vote with my wallet, if they are being rude, and to me that is using the word "farang" more than a couple of times in a brief encounter. I was in a small restaurant, getting some take-away, right next door to my condo, and the lady standing there must have said "farang" eight times. I didn't like the tone, even though I really didn't know what she was saying. I did know that the food wasn't good enough to have to listen to an idiot babble for five minutes. I haven't been back since, and I could just as easily been an almost daily customer.

Yup -- you're right, bangmai. It's doubtful you're going to hear the f-word in the bank, dentist's office, government office, etc. That's the point I'm making when I say it's "slang" and not used in polite conversation by educated people. Thai people manage to come up with other words in these situations -- they know they should elevate their discourse in formal settings.

We should do the same in referring to ourselves, especially if we want to be taken seriously. In Thailand, it's important how you dress and present yourself. So too, is how you refer to yourself. If you want people to treat you with respect, you have to treat yourself with respect.

[Rasseru]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Yes, 'gai' can be translated different ways, but the basic idea is 'outside'. 'Jin' means 'person'. 'Gaijin' is a shortened form of 'gaikokujin', in which 'koku' means 'country'. Some people take it into their heads that the shortened form is somehow disrespectful. Japanese who are aware that some foreigners think this are sometimes careful to use 'gaikokujin' instead of 'gaijin' around foreigners, but I have never heard the word 'gaijin' used in a way that gave me the sense disrespect was intended, and more than one Japanese person has told me, when asked, that to them it does not connote disrespect.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Rasseru

[CMHomeboy78]

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Yes, 'gai' can be translated different ways, but the basic idea is 'outside'. 'Jin' means 'person'. 'Gaijin' is a shortened form of 'gaikokujin', in which 'koku' means 'country'. Some people take it into their heads that the shortened form is somehow disrespectful. Japanese who are aware that some foreigners think this are sometimes careful to use 'gaikokujin' instead of 'gaijin' around foreigners, but I have never heard the word 'gaijin' used in a way that gave me the sense disrespect was intended, and more than one Japanese person has told me, when asked, that to them it does not connote disrespect.

Thanks for that clarification.

I always thought the word was derogatory. It seems to be closer to 'farang' than I thought it was.

[FolkGuitar]

Being and being called a 'farang' in Thailand has never bothered me in the least. Nor did being and being called a 'gaijin' in Japan.

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Gaijin is slang for gaikokujin. Basically (and with a bit of latitude,) 'gaikoku' translates roughly at 'foreign.' 'Jin' translates just as roughly as 'person.' Put them together and you get 'foreign person.' The Japanese are nothing if not polite, so in polite and FORMAL settings will always use 'gaikokujin' to refer to a person not Japanese. But in polite but INFORMAL settings the use of the nickname 'gaijin' is absolutely correct... except to the trouble makers who insist on formality in informal settings. It's as if you were being served tea in a china mug instead of a porcelain teacup in a family restaurant and complain about it. The Japanese won't say anything, just bring you your tea in a different cup, inwardly shaking their heads at someone being so foolish.

When speaking to others, the Japanese will ALWAYS add the honorific title (-san, -samma, or -chan) to their name, As in Smith-san or Jones-samma. ALWAYS. Even when speaking to children. They are Hanna-chan or Yoko-chan. Often in locations where someone needed to attract my attention in a crowd, but didn't know my name, they would call 'Gaijin-san' or even 'Gaijin-samma,' the most exalted honorific in the language. It's a rare foreigner indeed who could object to such a compliment, but in fact there are a few. I don't feel any different about the word 'farang.' I AM a foreigner. Being called one certainly doesn't bother me.

[Chicog]

Leave it to George Carlin....

[CMHomeboy78]

I have very little experience of Japan, but I am interested in it.

My understanding of the word 'gaijin' is that it is basically negative, unlike 'farang'.

Is that true?

That is not my understanding of the word, based on my experience of living in Japan close to fifteen years altogether, of having had and still having many Japanese friends and being now a fluent speaker and reader of Japanese.

But that does not stop, as others have pointed out here, troublemakers from taking offence.

Thanks for that.

Do you have any idea of the origin of the word 'gaijin'?

Gaijin is slang for gaikokujin. Basically (and with a bit of latitude,) 'gaikoku' translates roughly at 'foreign.' 'Jin' translates just as roughly as 'person.' Put them together and you get 'foreign person.' The Japanese are nothing if not polite, so in polite and FORMAL settings will always use 'gaikokujin' to refer to a person not Japanese. But in polite but INFORMAL settings the use of the nickname 'gaijin' is absolutely correct... except to the trouble makers who insist on formality in informal settings. It's as if you were being served tea in a china mug instead of a porcelain teacup in a family restaurant and complain about it. The Japanese won't say anything, just bring you your tea in a different cup, inwardly shaking their heads at someone being so foolish.

When speaking to others, the Japanese will ALWAYS add the honorific title (-san, -samma, or -chan) to their name, As in Smith-san or Jones-samma. ALWAYS. Even when speaking to children. They are Hanna-chan or Yoko-chan. Often in locations where someone needed to attract my attention in a crowd, but didn't know my name, they would call 'Gaijin-san' or even 'Gaijin-samma,' the most exalted honorific in the language. It's a rare foreigner indeed who could object to such a compliment, but in fact there are a few. I don't feel any different about the word 'farang.' I AM a foreigner. Being called one certainly doesn't bother me.

"...trouble makers who insist on formality in informal settings."

Nice line. Thanks.

[hml367]

NancyL,

Your comment, "I think it says something about the type of people you're living among if they consider it polite to refer to others as farangs" could very well say something about the people YOU are living among if THEY consider it impolite to refer to others as farangs.

[amexpat]

So, where do farangs like to go for pizza?

[arunsakda]

There are better ones available but I occasionally like a MadDog pie ( and shootin' the Shiite with Gai).

Edited July 16, 2015 by arunsakda

[happy Joe]

You can get us all convoluted theories you want, the problem is that they are doubtful.

For all Thais there are 2 kinds of farangs: Whites in general: Farang and white French: Farangset.

To deny this fact is to demonstrate a spirit for less tortuous.

According to sources the Persian term Ferengi would be the origin of the word FRANC, himself the name FRANCE predecessor. This would have the advantage to restore the temple in the middle of vllage but it is not formally established.

Finally, thank you to continue to distract us with your pompous explanations.

[Rasseru]

When speaking to others, the Japanese will ALWAYS add the honorific title (-san, -samma, or -chan) to their name, As in Smith-san or Jones-samma. ALWAYS.

Not quite. Almost always, but not always always. Spouses, for example, will sometimes not add -- sometimes they will, others they will not -- any such title to their spouse's name when they speak to them. Ditto when parents speak to their children. Ditto when teachers of children speak to their students.

Edited July 16, 2015 by Rasseru

[Ozziepat]

If a homogeneous, hugely nationalistic culture ("Thainess" conditioning comes to mind here) has terms for various groups who are not Thai (as perceived by "true" Thais), then anyone referred to by such a term is being assigned to a class of beings that is understood to be outside of the culture (not one of us) and therefore inferior by definition. (This is a consequence of cultural teachings and beliefs, and one cannot draw the same inference regarding a culture that does not teach its inherent and exclusive superiority but likewise has terms for "others.") Such verbal assignment to an inferior class is usually rather casual and does not carry any immediate and identifiable prejudicial tonality. To most Thais, this is all just understood, utterly fundamental and applied without thought or conscious negative intent. Exceptions would have to be taught as such.

So, while "respect" might be related to the question, perhaps "class" is the more basic consideration. Thais/Japanese/... might have class subdivisions within their cultures along with inculcated attitudes toward one's own class and others, but each collective group considers itself to be in a kind of superior national class when it comes to outsiders. Whether you wish to take offense to this cultural conditioning is, of course, a personal decision.

[phrodan]

Persian language -

Farang = European

Thai bastardisation -

Guava - Ton Farang ( white flesh ).

If we can agree on anything - can we agree that the French aspect has been debunked?

[happy Joe]

Persian language -

Farang = European

Thai bastardisation -

Guava - Ton Farang ( white flesh ).

If we can agree on anything - can we agree that the French aspect has been debunked?

No

Farang = all men and women with white skin.

Try again...

[Jai Dee]

Topic closed pending moderation.

/Closed.

/Edit - A number of flame posts, petty bickering, and off-topic posts have been removed from this thread.

Topic re-opened for civil discussion only please.

[Rama]

the term is not peculiar to Thailand, nor was it first used in Thailand. It was used throughout Asia, and other countries adapted similar or other terms over time for Europeans. It can be both derogatory and non-derogatory. Similar to the term gringo for North Americans. In Mexico, it is a derogatory term, in other parts south of Mexico it simply refers to a North American in a non-derogatory manner.

[bangmai]

So, where do farangs like to go for pizza?

Not sure, but me and some other farangs have been going to a farang Mexican place, however we were the only farangs in there last time.

[Thakkar]

Clearly the word has undergone some semantic amelioration and I've NEVER heard the word "farang" used alone as a pejorative.

I have noticed, however, that when I'm among low-class Thais, they call my a farang and it's almost a term of endearment, definitely has no negative connotation. However, it does make me feel a little bit objectified, as if I'm just another white boy (which I am, to them). However, to some of the Hi-So Thais I have worked with, they never use the word "farang", but refer to me exclusively as a "foreigner".

I'm ok with "Farang"

I find being called "foreigner" faux polite and condescending.

The "T" in my sign off signature below is my middle name, and stands for "troublemaker"

T

[phrodan]

Persian language -

Farang = European

Thai bastardisation -

Guava - Ton Farang ( white flesh ).

If we can agree on anything - can we agree that the French aspect has been debunked?

No

Farang = all men and women with white skin.

Try again...

Okay, let me explain.

Persians were in Thailand before Europeans were in the Americas and Australasia ( to name but two ).

Persian -

Farang = European.

I may not be a genius, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the Caucasian diaspora can track their roots to - Europe?????

So once again - "farang," is Persian in origin, nothing to do with the French.

[happy Joe]

Okay, let me explain.

Persians were in Thailand before Europeans were in the Americas and Australasia ( to name but two ).

Persian -

Farang = European.

I may not be a genius, but I think it's safe to say that the vast majority of the Caucasian diaspora can track their roots to - Europe?????

So once again - "farang," is Persian in origin, nothing to do with the French.

Your theory is plausible but uncertain. It's a bit the story of the chicken and the egg. Ferengi then gave Franc, France and finally Français.

There should be a reference stating that the term Farang was used well before the French Intervention in the 17th century.

For me I give you a sample of information emanating of our diplomacy duly translated in English to respect the rules of this forum.

... The prime minister of King Narai, a Greek adventurer named Constance Phaulcon, Siam decides to place under the protection of Louis XIV, but officials do not want their king remains under the influence of foreign and Phaulcon . In 1688, King Narai the Phaulcon dies and is put to death. All European are asked to leave the country. Since that time, the word farang, meaning abroad, derives from the word "farangset" Thai transcription Français ...

Ref: http://www.ambafrance-th.org/Relations-militaires-franco

Now everyone can get an oppinion but one thing is certain, here when a French says his nationality the immediate response is :

Ah, Farangset !

[CMKiwi]

You can get us all convoluted theories you want, the problem is that they are doubtful.

For all Thais there are 2 kinds of farangs: Whites in general: Farang and white French: Farangset.

To deny this fact is to demonstrate a spirit for less tortuous.

According to sources the Persian term Ferengi would be the origin of the word FRANC, himself the name FRANCE predecessor. This would have the advantage to restore the temple in the middle of vllage but it is not formally established.

Finally, thank you to continue to distract us with your pompous explanations.

I thought Ferengi were aliens on the TV series Star Trek....well now Ive been educated! Cheers

[cmth]

After considering this post, I have decided that referring to me as fat is offensive. From now on please refer to me using the correct medical terminology. Morbidly obese. On second thought, I think I prefer fat.

[connda]

During my time in the military, we referred to Thai women as LBFMs. I won't expound on that. Lol Racist? Word in the wind imho.

So does the word 'farang' stimulate feelings of racial indignation in my mind? Not in the least. It just a word; wind in the air

But I'm not a liberal either, so I still hang with what I learned in my conservative grade school: "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me." How true, how true.

Edited July 16, 2015 by connda

[connda]

Topic closed pending moderation.

/Closed.

/Edit - A number of flame posts, petty bickering, and off-topic posts have been removed from this thread.

Topic re-opened for civil discussion only please.

Dude, I love your signature! Good shit:

Taoism: shit happens

Buddhism: if shit happens, it isn't really shit

Islam: if shit happens, it is the will of Allah

Catholicism: if shit happens, you deserve it

Judaism: why does this shit always happen to us?

Atheism: I don't believe this shit