Foreigners Feeling No Long Welcome In Thailand

[meadish_sweetball]

Street touts are not representative of any population I have come into contact with. In Thailand at least, if you want to escape the touts, move out of the tourist areas. It's not very difficult.

[OldAsiaHand]

i (most humbly) beg to differ. recently i finished building a THB 22 million home, bought two cars, employ a live-in housemaid, a gardener and a driver for my wife; all ot them full time.

Haha...................yet another Millionaire on Thai Visa.

You appear to think that the significance of your observation is self-evident, but it eludes at least me.

Are you suggesting the point of view of anyone who has some resources amounts to a joke? Are you saying we should just leave the board to the old I-am-poorer-than-thou-and-therefore-better-than-you crowd that crawls out from under a rock every single time the subject of money and Thailand is linked in any thread?

I really do think you ought to explain your point, if any, more clearly.

Edited September 24, 2006 by OldAsiaHand

[jamman]

Street touts are not representative of any population I have come into contact with. In Thailand at least, if you want to escape the touts, move out of the tourist areas. It's not very difficult.

Sure, nobody is representative of anybody.

But there are some people who display this attitute.

I thought it would go without saying that not every person displays the same attitude. But there are plenty plenty people who do - enough for that plentitude to form a pattern.

I knew of a lawyer in Thailand who, in chatting with the interpreter for the falang client, openly and brazenly admitted to trying to screw over the client and add time to his sentence and extract extra money. Imagine the attitude he must have had, to admit to her, right in front of the client, that he was screwing the client over. He assumed that since the interpreter was also Thai, that she would be on his side. Another anecdote, not representative of all Thai people. Sure. Each anectdote adds to each other, and a person who cares to find patterns will find them.

My point isn't that all Asians have a racist, xenophobic and tribal mentality. You get that in any country. My point is that the % of people with such attitudes seems FAR higher than would be found in a middle class western culture. What's more, in modern societies such attitudes can't be so blatantly and disrespectfully displayed. Our societies frown on racism.

There is no need to explain why things are this way, or apologize for why things are this way. They are this way. It is. No problem to speak of it.

Edited September 24, 2006 by jamman

[Maigo6]

I really do think you ought to explain your point, if any, more clearly.

Don't take it so serious.

[quadricorrelator]

1. The feeling that foreigners have (which is how the topic title is worded) about the being welcome in Thailand, does not necessarily reflect Thai policy or individual Thai opinion of foreigners. The feeling a foreigner has may depend on how he inteprets his experience of living in Thailand.

I think this intepretation depends on the individual. And, two individuals may interpret the same experience completely differently. So, I don't think it is possible to determine individual Thai opinion or the meaning of Thai policy by examining one's own feelings.

2. However, you could ask the questions, "What percentage of Thai people welcome the number of foreigners that live here? What percentage wish they would go away? What percentage wish more would arrive?"

These questions can not necessarily be answered by trying to make sense of visa regulations, work permit regulations, and land ownership regulations. These regulations are made by policy makers for the purpose of improving Thai economy, lowering crime, etc. They don't necessarily reflect anyone's feeling towards foreigners. It might be a mistake to intepret these laws personally. I don't think they are intended to hurt anyone's feelings.

If you did want to know what the average Thai thought, then you probably could get some information by looking at Thai forums, written by Thais, in the Thai language. In such forums Thais might speak more freely and openly. It still might not be a random cross section of opinions, but it might give some information.

3. How much do foreigners help the economy?

I don't see how it is possible to know the economic impact of each segment of foreigners without having relevant data. I assume the policy makers have much more data than I do. I also assume they are professionals with relevant experience, relevant education, and training. Even if I did have the data I am not qualified to analyze this situation. Therefore, I don't have strong feelings either on this subject.

If I were forced to make a guess, I would think that the impact made by foreigners is decreasing as Thailand increases in economic strength. I think that the non-foreigner based part of the economy is probably growing faster than the foreigner-based part of the economy. But, that statement would be a guess only.

4. I think that foreign residents of Thailand often have mixed feelings about their lives in Thailand. We have good experiences and bad experiences.

The "stay or go" decision is made naturally. If we find a better option then we leave. If staying is the best option we stay.

It is possible to complain and be miserable, but still stay here, because it is the least miserable choice (Of course some people like to complain by nature. The definition of a pessimitic optimist could be given by, "I'd rather have the world be ten times as bad as it is, rather than lose my chance to complain about it."). It is difficult to understand the underlying meaning of any complaint, because it often is a reflection of the person more than the situation.

-q

Edited September 24, 2006 by quadricorrelator

[Donz]

Street touts are not representative of any population I have come into contact with. In Thailand at least, if you want to escape the touts, move out of the tourist areas. It's not very difficult.

Sure, nobody is representative of anybody.

But there are some people who display this attitute.

I thought it would go without saying that not every person displays the same attitude. But there are plenty plenty people who do - enough for that plentitude to form a pattern.

I knew of a lawyer in Thailand who, in chatting with the interpreter for the falang client, openly and brazenly admitted to trying to screw over the client and add time to his sentence and extract extra money. Imagine the attitude he must have had, to admit to her, right in front of the client, that he was screwing the client over. He assumed that since the interpreter was also Thai, that she would be on his side. Another anecdote, not representative of all Thai people. Sure. Each anectdote adds to each other, and a person who cares to find patterns will find them.

My point isn't that all Asians have a racist, xenophobic and tribal mentality. You get that in any country. My point is that the % of people with such attitudes seems FAR higher than would be found in a middle class western culture. What's more, in modern societies such attitudes can't be so blatantly and disrespectfully displayed. Our societies frown on racism.

There is no need to explain why things are this way, or apologize for why things are this way. They are this way. It is. No problem to speak of it.

Western countries?? got any links to that?? are you farang also? Because a farang wouldnt really know how racist western countries by there own experiences

[boppia]

It depends on the person. Some farangs come here a few times a year as a tourist and are happy. Some live here for a short time and can't survive on the salary and limited work possiblities. Some wealthy farangs come here and have more opportunities. Some farangs die here - bad experience. Some western criminals come here and find it a nice place for them - Whitey Bulger and that recent Karr guy. Some farang frogs with a little cash are turned into princes instantly. Some weathered horny old men can find younger attractive women than the older used wives they dumped back in the west to live with here. Some gay males feel liberated here. Some transvestite farangs feel free here too. Some skillless musicians by western standards are able to become rock stars her. Some people are reborn here. Some people find happiness here by spreading their religion to the Thais. Some farangs here just like Thai food and are happy enough to have that everyday. Some farangs with drug habits like to come here because its Sabai. Some anti-western-world farangs come here to be away from the 'evil' west. Some farang drunks come here and drink anywhere all the time without feeling alcoholic. Some farangs come here for the girls and some for the boys. Some come for the Durian. Some farangs are corrupt. Some are honest. Some are pedophiles. Some are murderers. Some lie. Some become monks. Some beg. Some sleep on the sidewalks. Some do business illegally and some legally. Some like to use wives to get visas and residency. Some farangs come for Buddhism. Some come to sell. Some to teach. Some to decieve. Thailand affects everyone differently.

Some posters are happy and some are not. Thailand isn't fair to foreigners and other countries are not fair to Thais. The law means nothing. The only way to to be happy is to find it. There are happy farang people in Thailand who are murderers, rapists, priests, teachers, monks, businesspeople, pedophiles, doctors, government employess, tourists, embassy staff, etc. They are all happy with life in Thailand. Tell these people they are not happy.

Then there are people who are not happy here. They have their reasons. Most of them fit into the group above.

Then there are people who aren't happy and aren't sad.

What else is there?

Me, I understand the orginal poster but I've had days when I would probably tell people to jump on a plane out of here.

I know a German guy who has been in Thailand for 9 years teaching English, probably illegally. He has had a one-year visa every year since he got here. His 'legal' visa comes from his connections to a corrupt monk with the power to do things. ANyways, this guy is much happier here than I am. He doesn't complain like I do because he knows that in Thailand corruption gets you what you want. Not everyone can work with corruption. Will it still be this way in the future? Who knows? If history means anything... It's true that Thailand doesn't offer the 'pursuit of happiness' as some western countries do but if you make the right connection you can stay and live the life you want no matter what the law means. Lots of foreigners have stretched or ignored the law to live better lives here. It might be who they are married to or who they know. They do extra work and don't record it in their income. They have businesses in someone else's name etc etc.

If things aren't going your way make your happiness like so many Thais and non-Thais do. The law will never be your friend no matter where you live. Just one view on things.

Edited September 24, 2006 by boppia

[Donz]

It depends on the person. Some farangs come here a few times a year as a tourist and are happy. Some live here for a short time and can't survive on the salary and limited work possiblities. Some wealthy farangs come here and have more opportunities. Some farangs die here - bad experience. Some western criminals come here and find it a nice place for them - Whitey Bulger and that recent Karr guy. Some farang frogs with a little cash are turned into princes instantly. Some weathered horny old men can find younger attractive women than the older used wives they dumped back in the west to live with here. Some gay males feel liberated here. Some transvestite farangs feel free here too. Some skillless musicians by western standards are able to become rock stars her. Some people are reborn here. Some people find happiness here by spreading their religion to the Thais. Some farangs here just like Thai food and are happy enough to have that everyday. Some farangs with drug habits like to come here because its Sabai. Some anti-western-world farangs come here to be away from the 'evil' west. Some farang drunks come here and drink anywhere all the time without feeling alcoholic. Some farangs come here for the girls and some for the boys. Some come for the Durian. Some farangs are corrupt. Some are honest. Some are pedophiles. Some are murderers. Some lie. Some become monks. Some beg. Some sleep on the sidewalks. Some do business illegally and some legally. Some like to use wives to get visas and residency. Some farangs come for Buddhism. Some come to sell. Some to teach. Some to decieve. Thailand affects everyone differently.

Some posters are happy and some are not. Thailand isn't fair to foreigners and other countries are not fair to Thais. The law means nothing. The only way to to be happy is to find it. There are happy farang people in Thailand who are murderers, rapists, priests, teachers, monks, businesspeople, pedophiles, doctors, government employess, tourists, embassy staff, etc. They are all happy with life in Thailand. Tell these people they are not happy.

Then there are people who are not happy here. They have their reasons. Most of them fit into the group above.

Then there are people who aren't happy and aren't sad.

What else is there?

Me, I understand the orginal poster. I've had days when I would probably tell people to jump on a plane out of here.

I know a German guy who has been in Thailand for 9 years teaching English, probably illegally. He has had a one-year visa every year since he got here. His 'legal' visa comes from his connections to a corrupt monk with the power to do things. ANyways, this guy is much happier here than I am. He doesn't complain like I do because he knows that in Thailand corruption gets you what you want. Not everyone can work with corruption. Will it still be this way in the future? Who knows? If history means anything... It's true that Thailand doesn't offer the 'pursuit of happiness' as some western countries do but if you make the right connection you can stay and live the life you want no matter what the law means. Lots of foreigners have stretched or ignored the law to live better lives here. It might be who they are married to or who they know. They do extra work and don't record it in their income. They have businesses in someone else's name etc etc.

If things aren't going your way make your happiness like so many Thais and non-Thais do. The law will never be your friend no matter where you live. Just one view on things.

Well I guess your right.

[OldAsiaHand]

I really do think you ought to explain your point, if any, more clearly.

Don't take it so serious.

Okay. I promise not to take you serious-ly.

[SiriusBlack1]

Here's hoping the worst excesses -- the crackdowns, the visa rules, the restrictions on property ownership, the loopy regulations -- are over, now that there's a new political order.

[the swagman]

"I think also, many of the long time 'tourists' in this country, overevaluate the real imput they give to the Thai economy."

i (most humbly) beg to differ. recently i finished building a THB 22 million home, bought two cars, employ a live-in housemaid, a gardener and a driver for my wife; all ot them full time.

One of the few, Dr.

I assume you worked hard, you saved, you did what you had to do and you did it well.

I am sure you have contributed to the betterment of the society and the community around you.

A good percentage of farangs living here are not in the same ball park as you. I was speaking mostly of the long term 'tourists' who for one reason or another have come here and decided to stay. Some work, some don't. Some spend, many long termers do not spend excessively so as to lengthen their holiday.

Tourism brings in most of Thailands money, by tourism I mean 2 - 3 weekers, island, Bangkok, Chiang Mai and then home. They stay in good hotels etc etc and spend. Even the 6 weekers who buy a coke with two straws bring in more money than many long termers living here. Through strength in numbers and bums on seats that type of thing.

Some posters have suggested that with the new rules and regulations and visa uncertainty that the lose of them would plunge the Thai economy into turmoil.

You sir are one of the lucky ones who has the means and the desire to live where you want to in a fashion you want to.

Having spent a good portion of my life in Bangkok I can tell you, Thai people (in Bkk granted, but with large familys) have money. This country is not poor. A great many Thai have large houses, land, at least one car, house help, and a dog. They employ workers, they do business, they live and spend.

[HenryB]

All Thais love us.

My Thai wife and her brother told me this when I took 18 familiy menbers out to eat and drink.

In the last month I brought 23 house in my wife's name and 2 in her brothers name.

I love all 54 familiy menbers and my lovly wife and her brother tell me they all love me.

Edited September 24, 2006 by HenryB

[Donz]

All Thais love us.

My Thai wife and her brother told me this when I took 18 familiy menbers out to eat and drink.

In the last month I brought 23 house in my wife's name and 2 in her brothers name.

I love all 54 familiy menbers and my lovly wife and her brother tell me they all love me.

Buy me a house and I will love you too.

So will all my family and the rest of australia

[Little_Buddy]

I really do think you ought to explain your point, if any, more clearly.

Don't take it so serious.

I was also wondering what your point was.

[johnnyk]

Expat falangs tend to overestimate their importance to the Thai economy.

Tourism is approximately 6% of Thai GNP and most of that comes from vacation packages.

Annual visits are in the range of 12-13 million persons and the vast majority of those return home after a short holiday.

Long-stay expats and 30-day visa runners aren't gong to shut down the Thai economy and that's why the government for the most part doesn't give two shites about them. Some people just have a hard time accepting they aren't all that important.

[Maigo6]

I really do think you ought to explain your point, if any, more clearly.

Don't take it so serious.

I was also wondering what your point was.

Really, can you possibly be that bored?

What an inquistitive bunch of guys we have in this forum, almost makes me glad to be alive.

I will try to think of a point, if and when I find a point, I will inform you immediately, you and the FBI agent.

[Donz]

Expat falangs tend to overestimate their importance to the Thai economy.

Tourism is approximately 6% of Thai GNP and most of that comes from vacation packages.

Annual visits are in the range of 12-13 million persons and the vast majority of those return home after a short holiday.

Long-stay expats and 30-day visa runners aren't gong to shut down the Thai economy and that's why the government for the most part doesn't give two shites about them. Some people just have a hard time accepting they aren't all that important.

True that, many think that Thai's actually owe them something for being a long term resident too.

Many attitudes are like I am farang so I am better then you

[Scott]

But Donz, I am better than you!

[Donz]

But Donz, I am better than you!

I bet you think you can burn water too.

What you have said is outrageous, probaly against the law in many coutries too

[rcalsop]

"Pepe' and Dhakar, you are now officially part of the 'I hate Thailand "

I hope you're joking. Even if you are it's a bad one. I have family in Thailand. I in fact love this place and feel a true natural affection for the King.

Why do you say some thing like this?

If you feel that you're unwelcome here ... you probably are.

Agreed

Sabaijai, .That makes no sense whatsoever. The OP is talking about government regulations, not personal relationships.

Dave . . . , a cunning linguist as usual . . .

Pepe' and Dhakar, you are now officially part of the 'I hate Thailand ' crowd and will be attacked with rotten tomatoes and the like at every turn when you don't suggest that the sun shines out of Thailand's rear end.

It is true, Pepe' . . . the type of person on TV has changed.

I have family and a great many friends in Thailand I always feel welcome by them ...However the state and the Bosses ...farangs are an evil to be disposed of when they are no longer needed or have a reducing cash flow ... The education system is screwed and expensive for what it is , the human rights issue ( I mean mine ) leaves a lot to be desired .. I purchased 2 cars , 2 houses , sent 2 kids to school spent 90% of my income in Thailand ,paid tax ( a lot !!) and my rights are nil ..I f my wife dies I cannot own the property , visa rights come into question ....I do not moan only comment ...but I did take action ...I am now working in Malaysia ...a, my family joins in 3 days ..I have a good job , provident fund , pension fund , and I am starting to buy a house ...in joint names .

The attitude of the schools is better and in general good standards ...many Thais send their kid here for good value education with less transient back packing teachers screwing their way through the flesh pots of Asia ...( that will get some flaming ) My Thai daughter spent more time teaching English to her peers than the teachers who changed every term at an international school. In three years she has progressed only two ...

So do I feel welcome by Thailand as a nation no , do I moan no , positive action to remedy YES .

So you to detractors who bitch and belly ache at any negative comment genuinely expressed cannot even say good riddance !!! and bye bye ..Your approach sounds as bad as the present way of solving political issues in Thailand .

[Donz]

"Pepe' and Dhakar, you are now officially part of the 'I hate Thailand "

I hope you're joking. Even if you are it's a bad one. I have family in Thailand. I in fact love this place and feel a true natural affection for the King.

Why do you say some thing like this?

If you feel that you're unwelcome here ... you probably are.

Agreed

Sabaijai, .That makes no sense whatsoever. The OP is talking about government regulations, not personal relationships.

Dave . . . , a cunning linguist as usual . . .

Pepe' and Dhakar, you are now officially part of the 'I hate Thailand ' crowd and will be attacked with rotten tomatoes and the like at every turn when you don't suggest that the sun shines out of Thailand's rear end.

It is true, Pepe' . . . the type of person on TV has changed.

I have family and a great many friends in Thailand I always feel welcome by them ...However the state and the Bosses ...farangs are an evil to be disposed of when they are no longer needed or have a reducing cash flow ... The education system is screwed and expensive for what it is , the human rights issue ( I mean mine ) leaves a lot to be desired .. I purchased 2 cars , 2 houses , sent 2 kids to school spent 90% of my income in Thailand ,paid tax ( a lot !!) and my rights are nil ..I f my wife dies I cannot own the property , visa rights come into question ....I do not moan only comment ...but I did take action ...I am now working in Malaysia ...a, my family joins in 3 days ..I have a good job , provident fund , pension fund , and I am starting to buy a house ...in joint names .

The attitude of the schools is better and in general good standards ...many Thais send their kid here for good value education with less transient back packing teachers screwing their way through the flesh pots of Asia ...( that will get some flaming ) My Thai daughter spent more time teaching English to her peers than the teachers who changed every term at an international school. In three years she has progressed only two ...

So do I feel welcome by Thailand as a nation no , do I moan no , positive action to remedy YES .

So you to detractors who bitch and belly ache at any negative comment genuinely expressed cannot even say good riddance !!! and bye bye ..Your approach sounds as bad as the present way of solving political issues in Thailand .

Finally someone with brains

Most people that feel the way you did will just stay and moan all there lives, nice to know that some actually does something about it. There should be more farangs like yourself

[dgoz]

For those of you who can't see the deepseated resentment, hatred and racism towards Farang in Thailand I suggest you're either blind, ignorant or you just haven't been here long enough.

The question is whether you can look past all that to the upside, of which there is a considerable one, and enjoy it.

[Donz]

For those of you who can't see the deepseated resentment, hatred and racism towards Farang in Thailand I suggest you're either blind, ignorant or you just haven't been here long enough.

The question is whether you can look past all that to the upside, of which there is a considerable one, and enjoy it.

Farang who think like that are racist themselves IMO

[jamman]

For those of you who can't see the deepseated resentment, hatred and racism towards Farang in Thailand I suggest you're either blind, ignorant or you just haven't been here long enough.

The question is whether you can look past all that to the upside, of which there is a considerable one, and enjoy it.

I think there is a divide amongst people, amonst our style of organizing ideas.

There are those who learn truth through understanding moral rules, and struggling to be a true person within moral rules. And there are those who learn truth through examining all details of experience, and trying to find patterns in them.

When what is good has more fundamental truth than what is experiened, the cognitive dissonance will occlude the impertinant data. Conversely, when what is experienced is more fundamental than any sense of goodness, we can be nihilist sensation hungry animals lacking insight. Only when in the world of experience we find value can we make useful comments.

People who do not want to say bad things about Thais are biased against facts, because they aim for a higher moral goodness.

People who can only bitch and moan are biased against the human condition having a real direction and aim.

But some of us are both and neither, and can both bitch and moan and pray.

[dave111223]

I agree with the OP somewhat, the laws here do seem strange sometimes.

If my wife and i moved back to the US she could apply for a green card and then go apply to work at any company she wanted. (Or start a business with no financial requirements)

Or even no doubt be happily collecting a wellfare check within 5 years.

But for me i've got to have money every year, i cant work without getting a work permit tied to a specific company and location.

But the laws here dont really seem to be enforced the way they are back home, so who cares.

I dont think 98% of Thais even know immigration laws exist here.

[terry57]

For those of you who can't see the deepseated resentment, hatred and racism towards Farang in Thailand I suggest you're either blind, ignorant or you just haven't been here long enough.

The question is whether you can look past all that to the upside, of which there is a considerable one, and enjoy it.

I think there is a divide amongst people, amonst our style of organizing ideas.

There are those who learn truth through understanding moral rules, and struggling to be a true person within moral rules. And there are those who learn truth through examining all details of experience, and trying to find patterns in them.

When what is good has more fundamental truth than what is experiened, the cognitive dissonance will occlude the impertinant data. Conversely, when what is experienced is more fundamental than any sense of goodness, we can be nihilist sensation hungry animals lacking insight. Only when in the world of experience we find value can we make useful comments.

People who do not want to say bad things about Thais are biased against facts, because they aim for a higher moral goodness.

People who can only bitch and moan are biased against the human condition having a real direction and aim.

But some of us are both and neither, and can both bitch and moan and pray.

NIHILISM = noun/ latin = the rejection of all religious and moral principals. extreme scepticism, maintaining that nothing has a real existance.

a very nice word indeed my friend.

[elation]

I agree with the OP somewhat, the laws here do seem strange sometimes.

If my wife and i moved back to the US she could apply for a green card and then go apply to work at any company she wanted. (Or start a business with no financial requirements)

Or even no doubt be happily collecting a wellfare check within 5 years.

But for me i've got to have money every year, i cant work without getting a work permit tied to a specific company and location.

Unfortunately that is why the US is in such dire straights with their 'entitlement' programs such as govt pension budgets, medicare, and social security. Too many people have been granted 'rights' too easily at the expense of everyone else. Thailand's monetary requirement for immigrants keeps it from becoming a socialist welfare state and a magnet for free loaders.

[Donz]

Dont like it, go home.

Simple as that

[Axel]

Dont like it, go home.

Simple as that

Guess it is a joke, otherwise I believe, you can do better than that.

[jdinasia]

For those of you who can't see the deepseated resentment, hatred and racism towards Farang in Thailand I suggest you're either blind, ignorant or you just haven't been here long enough.

The question is whether you can look past all that to the upside, of which there is a considerable one, and enjoy it.

I agree with your comment on not getting married. I'm not gone yet and I never thought I would even imagine getting married to a Thai girl (personally Ive had some wonderful Vietnamese gf's and thought I would go that way). But hey, I've happened to meet a great girl and I'm thinking about it, so after drinking and banging my way around Thailand for a few years it's time for me to learn about this, just in case.

Could THIS be the reason you are experiencing resentment hatred and what you see as racism?