A Palestinian village braces for Israeli demolition

[dexterm]

70% of the world's sovereign states with more to follow, who have already recognized Palestinians' right to self determination

I see what amounts to an agreement on paper about a 'concept', rather like the Balfour declaration and we all know the Balfour declaration didn't magically hand or create a homeland for Jews. So, good luck bringing an agreement on paper to fruition. Israel knows from bitter experience that there is far more to nation building than a bunch of clueless suits far from the theatre itself, nodding their heads like donkeys to great applause.

edit : why break the habit of a lifetime? Fixing broken quote brackets

No time to debate dusty antediluvian illegal and irrelevant letters from an immoral British government today. Get on topic and look towards the future.

Edited July 29, 2015 by dexterm

[Lissos]

No time to debate dusty antediluvian illegal and irrelevant letters from an immoral British government today. Get on topic and look towards the future.

We're on topic, and - "look towards the future" is exactly what your team always want to do, lest anybody happen upon the grubby past of your team and how their actions / decisions helped shape the situation they are in today.

The past is very inconvenient for the marketing strategy that rehashes very old attitudes and wants to present this situation as having appeared in a vacuum, or beginning the timeline in the later part of the 48 flashpoint.

Going any further back only enlightens people to how this is in fact a far more complex affair than can be condensed into a sound bite / activist poster. At one time I also used to believe that ignoring the past could be the key. It won't work for various reasons and both sides need to fully stare those wounds in the face and discuss them, because the past is not dead in this conflict. It is very much alive in the momentum. The father of my Omani friend only looked to the future too, to the destruction of Israel.

[dexterm]

No time to debate dusty antediluvian illegal and irrelevant letters from an immoral British government today. Get on topic and look towards the future.

We're on topic, and - "look towards the future" is exactly what your team always want to do, lest anybody happen upon the grubby past of your team and how their actions / decisions helped shape the situation they are in today.

The past is very inconvenient for the marketing strategy that rehashes very old attitudes and wants to present this situation as having appeared in a vacuum, or beginning the timeline in the later part of the 48 flashpoint.

Going any further back only enlightens people to how this is in fact a far more complex affair than can be condensed into a sound bite / activist poster. At one time I also used to believe that ignoring the past could be the key. It won't work for various reasons and both sides need to fully stare those wounds in the face and discuss them, because the past is not dead in this conflict. It is very much alive in the momentum. The father of my Omani friend only looked to the future too, to the destruction of Israel.

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

I would dearly love to debate the Zionist old chestnut mythologies..the establishment of Zionism and its unashamed intention to displace the majority Palestinian population which it has successfully achieved, Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians and their fight back with hands tied, Zionist illegal immigration, Zionist aggression and initiation of every conflict since then in an attempt to steal more land.

Don't worry. You will get your debate when the appropriate thread arises.

In the meantime back to the OP, stand in the shoes for one minute of the West Bank Palestinian being faced with eviction from a land he was born in by a fanatical Zionist born in New York waving a Bible and an Uzi sub machine gun, saying "Clear off this is my land." That is the injustice I object to.

Edited July 29, 2015 by dexterm

[TooPoopedToPop]

No time to debate dusty antediluvian illegal and irrelevant letters from an immoral British government today. Get on topic and look towards the future.

We're on topic, and - "look towards the future" is exactly what your team always want to do, lest anybody happen upon the grubby past of your team and how their actions / decisions helped shape the situation they are in today.

The past is very inconvenient for the marketing strategy that rehashes very old attitudes and wants to present this situation as having appeared in a vacuum, or beginning the timeline in the later part of the 48 flashpoint.

Going any further back only enlightens people to how this is in fact a far more complex affair than can be condensed into a sound bite / activist poster. At one time I also used to believe that ignoring the past could be the key. It won't work for various reasons and both sides need to fully stare those wounds in the face and discuss them, because the past is not dead in this conflict. It is very much alive in the momentum. The father of my Omani friend only looked to the future too, to the destruction of Israel.

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

I would dearly love to debate the Zionist old chestnut mythologies..the establishment of Zionism and its unashamed intention to displace the majority Palestinian population which it has successfully achieved, Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians and their fight back with hands tied, Zionist illegal immigration, Zionist aggression and initiation of every conflict since then in an attempt to steal more land.

Don't worry. You will get your debate when the appropriate thread arises.

In the meantime back to the OP, stand in the shoes for one minute of the West Bank Palestinian being faced with eviction from a land he was born in by a fanatical Zionist born in New York waving a Bible and an Uzi sub machine gun, saying "Clear off this is my land." That is the injustice I object to.

Exceptionally good post.

Your last line is priceless.

[Ulysses G.]

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

Speaking about big lies. You have been caught telling them repeatedly on this forum and lots of credible evidence has been presented to prove that you were wrong.

One example - that you allude to a few posts back - is your frequent claim that the Palestinian Arabs did not start the 1948 war with Israel, but I can come up with numerous other examples of flagrant falsehoods upon request.

This is what the U.S Department of State Office of the Historian has to say about it:

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. .

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Linky]

In typical fashion the Israel enablers look to the past whereas the rest of the world looks to the future.

[Ulysses G.]

In other words, history legitimizes Israel's past and present actions, but Israel haters can make up any old crap about the future.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

Speaking about big lies. You have been caught telling them repeatedly on this forum and lots of credible evidence has been presented to prove that you were wrong.

One example - that you allude to a few posts back - is your frequent claim that the Palestinian Arabs did not start the 1948 war with Israel, but I can come up with numerous other examples of flagrant falsehoods upon request.

This is what the U.S Department of State Office of the Historian has to say about it:

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. .

As usual you muddy the timeline. As usual the Israelis initiated the conflict.You somehow fail to mention how months before, Zionist Irgun and Stern Terrorist Armies had already destroyed more than 400 Palestinian villages, murdered thousands of unarmed innocent civilians and ethnically cleansed 700,000 Palestinian residents, some of whom are now being displaced yet again in the OP.

"The baseless myth, of how the Arab armies wanted to destroy the 'Jewish State',

has been propagated in all sectors of the Israeli society, especially in its school system, military boot camps, and media." Read the facts about what really happened here..

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story457.html

Back to the OP and more Israeli hypocrisy. How can Netanyahu claim to support the EU and US position on a two state solution while building settlements on and evicting Palestinians from land intended for a future Palestinian state? This does not compute!

"The EU expects the Israeli government to demonstrate its commitment to the two-state solution not only in words, but also through its actions."

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.668538

Edited July 30, 2015 by dexterm

[Linky]

In other words, history legitimizes Israel's past and present actions, but Israel haters can make up any old crap about the future.

I understand comprehension is not your strong point. Neither is morality when you say beatings and torture of Palestinians is justified becsuse they deserve it.

But to make it a little clearer Israel will forever say 'you started it' like a 5 year old schoolboy to try and justify land grabs and collective murder and punishment.

Palestinians and the rest of the world consider the future and how to get peace on just terms.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Linky

[Ulysses G.]

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

Speaking about big lies. You have been caught telling them repeatedly on this forum and lots of credible evidence has been presented to prove that you were wrong.

One example - that you allude to a few posts back - is your frequent claim that the Palestinian Arabs did not start the 1948 war with Israel, but I can come up with numerous other examples of flagrant falsehoods upon request.

This is what the U.S Department of State Office of the Historian has to say about it:

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. .

As usual you muddy the timeline. As usual the Israelis initiated the conflict.

Back to using unscrupulous websites to back up revisionist lies. Try to find any CREDIBLE source to back you up. Here is the real story from a source you have used numerous times, although it pretty much always contradicts your posts.

Violence in the Holy Land broke out almost immediately after the United Nations announced partition on November 29, 1947. Jamal Husseini, the Arab Higher Committee's spokesman, had told the UN prior to the partition vote the Arabs would drench "the soil of our beloved country with the last drop of our blood."1

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/1948_War.html

[Lissos]

Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians

Let's be honest, the British 1939 White Paper royally 'Betrayed' all sides in its desperation to backtrack on big promises made to both sides about that area. On that, generally I find that ultimately these discussions come to that conclusion. Both were left to salvage what was left of a momemtum they'd poured their energy into for decades. It couldn't be called off, and the British had to flee after the wrath of both people's, was provoked.

"Clear off this is my land." That is the injustice I object to.

Wasn't it William Blake who said - "When a sinister person means to be your enemy, they always start by trying to become your friend."? Based on much personal interaction with people in the region and online, I would add - "and always start with claiming the sole momentum of their passion against Israel is about settlers". Forgive me for being suspicious ( based on experience of certain cues ), as there is usually far more driving the focus. One of the tactics is suggesting it is in Israel's interest to make concessions, a rosy picture painted of a thriving prosperous Israel in return for giving in to every demand from Palestinian leadership and the wider Islamic Ummah.

Gun toting South Africans or Americans in settlements is one thing. Boycott movements that 'wreck' jobs for Palestinians, sacrificing them in order to harm Israel, is another. It is all too intertwined for Israel to trust. It has too much experience of trojan horses trundled towards it.

[Ulysses G.]

Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians

Let's be honest, the British 1939 White Paper royally 'Betrayed' all sides in its desperation to backtrack on big promises made to both sides about that area. On that, generally I find that ultimately these discussions come to that conclusion. Both were left to salvage what was left of a momemtum they'd poured their energy into for decades. It couldn't be called off, and the British had to flee after the wrath of both people's, was provoked.

Indeed. That is why both the Arabs and the Jews declared war on Great Britain. However, the Jews called a truce during WW2 and many joined the British army. The Palestinian Arabs joined forced with the German Nazis.

[Ulysses G.]

In other words, history legitimizes Israel's past and present actions, but Israel haters can make up any old crap about the future.

But to make it a little clearer Israel will forever say 'you started it'

Since you brought it up, as far as I can tell, other than an obsessive need to demonize Jews and Israel, you have no strong points at all. Your comrades probably appreciate that one though.

Of course Israel will forever say 'you started it' to the Palestinian Arabs. Those are the FACTS.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[Linky]

In other words, history legitimizes Israel's past and present actions, but Israel haters can make up any old crap about the future.

But to make it a little clearer Israel will forever say 'you started it'

Since you brought it up, as far as I can tell, other than an obsessive need to demonize Jews and Israel, you have no strong points at all. Your comrades probably appreciate that one though.

Of course Israel will forever say 'you started it' to the Palestinian Arabs. Those are the FACTS.

Just like the 5 year old. Mom he started it. He took my pencil so I killed him and his family but its ok because he started it.

And so Israel will be treated like a petulant child.

[Ulysses G.]

What a stupid comparison. The Palestinian Arabs murdered innocent Jewish families for decades before the Jews struck back and there is plenty of evidence.

List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine

Note: The designation "responsible party" below refers to those believed to be the principle instigators of the violence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_killings_and_massacres_in_Mandatory_Palestine

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[dexterm]

Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians

Let's be honest, the British 1939 White Paper royally 'Betrayed' all sides in its desperation to backtrack on big promises made to both sides about that area. On that, generally I find that ultimately these discussions come to that conclusion. Both were left to salvage what was left of a momemtum they'd poured their energy into for decades. It couldn't be called off, and the British had to flee after the wrath of both people's, was provoked.

Indeed. That is why both the Arabs and the Jews declared war on Great Britain. However, the Jews called a truce during WW2 and many joined the British army. The Palestinian Arabs joined forced with the German Nazis.

I wouldn't go there if I were you. Israelis have lots of skeletons in their cupboards.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transfer_Agreement

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Black.html

Lets see, so far YOU have introduced events in World War 1, World War 2, and 1948 in order to deflect or besmirch rather than address the OP. You seem buried in the past.

How about getting back on topic and thinking of realistic ways to solve the impasse in the OP which may lead to an eventual peace.

Edited July 30, 2015 by dexterm

[Ulysses G.]

Are we supposed to be convinced by some nutty anti-Semitic crap you found on the Internet? Why not throw in the "Protocols of of the Elders of Zion?"

None of your links was about Israel. It was hateful insinuations about Jews - "Useful Jews". It shows where your head is really at.

Edited July 30, 2015 by Ulysses G.

[thaibeachlovers]

so there is hope that a campaign will start and be successful in forcing Israel back to the legal 1948 border.

That campaign has been operating in a myriad of forms and from different angles for decades already. And to quote the Father of an Omani friend of mine when I was at their house in Muscat - "Once Israel shrinks to her 48 borders, she cannot survive much longer". Two things to note - he said it with blatant conspiratorial malice, and his tone of "she" came across as patriarchal intent to whip a disobedient little 'Bint' into the dust.

Despite this, I got on well with his father in other ways (even though his son was embarrassed by his fiery views) but from that moment on I knew I could never ever trust that the sweet talk of Arabs for seeking of concessions was anything but part of a long term strategy of weakening Israel's armour so that a day will come where they can go for the jugular and slaughter it for good. I of course didn't bite at the time, because I'm not stupid enough to argue Israel's case while a guest in an Arab home.

At the time I feigned total ignorance of the conflict, to gather an insight.

The anti apartheid campaign didn't really take off for a long time. I'd say it took things like the Biko murder and shooting township students for protesting about learning Afrikans to reach the tipping point. However, the way Israel is going, the tipping point is surely coming and then Israel will learn what it is to be an international pariah- completely self inflicted.

[thaibeachlovers]

Britain's betrayal of the Palestinians

Let's be honest, the British 1939 White Paper royally 'Betrayed' all sides in its desperation to backtrack on big promises made to both sides about that area. On that, generally I find that ultimately these discussions come to that conclusion. Both were left to salvage what was left of a momemtum they'd poured their energy into for decades. It couldn't be called off, and the British had to flee after the wrath of both people's, was provoked.

Indeed. That is why both the Arabs and the Jews declared war on Great Britain. However, the Jews called a truce during WW2 and many joined the British army. The Palestinian Arabs joined forced with the German Nazis.

I wouldn't go there if I were you. Israelis have lots of skeletons in their cupboards.

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Jewish-Soldiers-Descent-Military/dp/0700613587

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_Jew

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Transfer_Agreement

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Black.html

Lets see, so far YOU have introduced events in World War 1, World War 2, and 1948 in order to deflect or besmirch rather than address the OP. You seem buried in the past.

How about getting back on topic and thinking of realistic ways to solve the impasse in the OP which may lead to an eventual peace.

IMO the Isrealis will never agree to the two state solution, which is the ONLY path to peace, because it would involve giving up the west bank and East Jerusalem. Instead they hope that building illegal settlements will establish facts on the ground that will allow them to expell the Palestinians entirely in the future, though that requires the US to continue it's support for the occupation of Palestine for ever. Does the Israeli population not realise that it only takes a US president with the guts to stand up for human rights to make their strategy unworkable. Do they imagine that Australia will send an army to rescue them when it all turns to poo?

[dexterm]

Why do Zionists need more land? Why not simply stop settlement building now. The PA is quite willing to accept land swaps equal in area to land stolen beyond the 67 ceasefire lines, so that Israel can keep its larger colonies in the West Bank together with all the land it had previously ethnically cleansed.

A compromise: not the Mediterranean to the Euphrates that some Zionists aspire to, nor will the Palestinians ever regain the land they have lost prior to 67.

What an incredible economy Israel and Palestine could enjoy side by side. Massive reconstruction, tourism, trade with all neighboring Arab countries.

Imagine.

[Lissos]

None none of your links was about Israel.

To be fair, link three and four are based around true events (but the book on link three may have twisted / magnified this into an entirely different animal I suspect. I haven't read it), but I have read a book (quite an old one, not of the current generation of propaganda books on this conflict) which clarifies the dealings and puts it into context of choice (or lack of it) at the time.

Can't comment on the first and second link though. What the last two show, is the quality of self reflection in Jews because this is not actually a new revelation of 'surpressed histiry' or anything (if the book implies it). It is (and has) been openly on Zionist sites and several of the rather stodgy academic books I've read by Israeli authors on Zionism history don't hold back from admissions of error / incorrect assumptions / about the history.

Will you find such introspection from the Arab (Muslims, specifically) side? I say no. It is one mega pity party portrayal and we see an effort to censor the past unless cherry picking from it in order to advance a castrated version of historical events so that the Arab and the Muslim in particular is the 'victim' of everybody, blameless, and thus primed to launch Jihad.

In the minds of Arabs, no error was made, therefore they are not obliged to alter anything, and simply demand the other side compensate them. It is a re-occuring theme and in the context of Arab Muslims is Islamic ideology all over. In other words, deems itself perfect, flawless, beyond amendment, inalterable. Islamic thinking is the key to how Israel's opponents operate.

[thaibeachlovers]

None none of your links was about Israel.

To be fair, link three and four are based around true events (but the book on link three may have twisted / magnified this into an entirely different animal I suspect. I haven't read it), but I have read a book (quite an old one, not of the current generation of propaganda books on this conflict) which clarifies the dealings and puts it into context of choice (or lack of it) at the time.

Can't comment on the first and second link though. What the last two show, is the quality of self reflection in Jews because this is not actually a new revelation of 'surpressed histiry' or anything (if the book implies it). It is (and has) been openly on Zionist sites and several of the rather stodgy academic books I've read by Israeli authors on Zionism history don't hold back from admissions of error / incorrect assumptions / about the history.

Will you find such introspection from the Arab (Muslims, specifically) side? I say no. It is one mega pity party portrayal and we see an effort to censor the past unless cherry picking from it in order to advance a castrated version of historical events so that the Arab and the Muslim in particular is the 'victim' of everybody, blameless, and thus primed to launch Jihad.

In the minds of Arabs, no error was made, therefore they are not obliged to alter anything, and simply demand the other side compensate them. It is a re-occuring theme and in the context of Arab Muslims is Islamic ideology all over. In other words, deems itself perfect, flawless, beyond amendment, inalterable. Islamic thinking is the key to how Israel's opponents operate.

It's irrelevant if Israeli or Palestinian/ Arab authors admit anything. The facts are that Israelis occupy land that was never part of modern Israel as given by the UN ( the only legal Israeli land ) and build illegal settlements, thereby continuing the conflict. The only thing that counts is solving the problem or continuing the conflict till one side removes the other, permanently.

[Lissos]

Imagine.

Hamas, Islamic Jihad, any number of such spanners in the works of fluffy visions.

[Lissos]

Israelis occupy land that was never part of modern Israel as given by the UN

With respect, 'given' is a misrepresentation of how things manifest on the ground.

[thaibeachlovers]

Israelis occupy land that was never part of modern Israel as given by the UN

With respect, 'given' is a misrepresentation of how things manifest on the ground.

How would you feel if I moved into your house and started moving you out, using that justification?

[lap82]

Will all these conflicts come to an end one day?

[thaibeachlovers]

Will all these conflicts come to an end one day?

Absolutely. One day the sun will expand and consume the earth before dying for lack of fuel. In the meantime..............................

[Lissos]

How would you feel if I moved into your house and started moving you out, using that justification?

I don't believe I was justfying anything in my comment, thaibeachlover. I questioned the term 'given'. Ultimately there was a showdown and nobody created a ready made state for Jews. It had to manifest with their own hands. I question the same when some say Britain 'gave' Jews a homeland and that they weren't gratefull. Concept is one thing, but by 1939 Britain tried to backtrack in midstream. I don't call that giving anyone anything.

[Pakboong]

I completely agree with you that the present troubles stem from a very murky history.. I prefer to call it the Zionist hoax/big lie.

Speaking about big lies. You have been caught telling them repeatedly on this forum and lots of credible evidence has been presented to prove that you were wrong.

One example - that you allude to a few posts back - is your frequent claim that the Palestinian Arabs did not start the 1948 war with Israel, but I can come up with numerous other examples of flagrant falsehoods upon request.

This is what the U.S Department of State Office of the Historian has to say about it:

The Arab-Israeli War of 1948 broke out when five Arab nations invaded territory in the former Palestinian mandate immediately following the announcement of the independence of the state of Israel on May 14, 1948. .

dexterm if very often alone in his position which is consistently pro-Palestinian. I appreciate his position because he doesn't have to be sarcastic or condescending. Not so much for the other side. I just don't get the nastiness, it kills any point a person might want to make.

[Scott]

Numerous off-topic posts have been removed along with replies.

Continued off-topic posts will result in suspensions. This is about a village scheduled for demolition.