PM lashes out at EU fisheries panel over 'red card' idea

[greenchair]

I have to agree with Prayuth on this one. The Thai were not the only ones involved in this. In fact, they are the puppets and the victims. The American companies and the European companies and their governments knew exactly why those prices were so low. The profits of the boat owners and the traffickers are miniscule, compared to the billions of dollars gleaned by the foreign companies. The Thai were the drug mules, while these companies were the kingpins that did not get their hands dirty. And like all nasty little kingpins, they are happy to sit back and watch the little country take the fall.

[englishoak]

If thats their best ............ Ban them.

[TheAppletons]

I have to agree with Prayuth on this one. The Thai were not the only ones involved in this. In fact, they are the puppets and the victims. The American companies and the European companies and their governments knew exactly why those prices were so low. The profits of the boat owners and the traffickers are miniscule, compared to the billions of dollars gleaned by the foreign companies. The Thai were the drug mules, while these companies were the kingpins that did not get their hands dirty. And like all nasty little kingpins, they are happy to sit back and watch the little country take the fall.

Ha ha, thanks for the laugh this morning! Funny.

Edited July 25, 2015 by TheAppletons

[jonnyscot]

Sure it's the fault of the fishermen for overfishing, but because no one stopped them until now,, it's the "nature of the beast" in every fishing community and most businesses worldwide,, take as much as you can get is the way it's done,,

Declining fish stocks is a result of the overfishing, to stop or reduce the overfishing takes time, thailand needs it's fishing fleet and cannot afford to lose so many boats, although the fleet needs reducing, policing and new regulations implemented, all this will never be achieved in such a short time,

the powers that be in Europe have a habit of telling everyone else to get their house in order but forget about their own,,

the British /Scottish fishing industry springs to mind as a perfect example of this

[Bluespunk]

Sure it's the fault of the fishermen for overfishing, but because no one stopped them until now,, it's the "nature of the beast" in every fishing community and most businesses worldwide,, take as much as you can get is the way it's done,,

Declining fish stocks is a result of the overfishing, to stop or reduce the overfishing takes time, thailand needs it's fishing fleet and cannot afford to lose so many boats, although the fleet needs reducing, policing and new regulations implemented, all this will never be achieved in such a short time,

the powers that be in Europe have a habit of telling everyone else to get their house in order but forget about their own,,

the British /Scottish fishing industry springs to mind as a perfect example of this

The British/Scottish fleets are very tightly regulated because of the EU and fishing stocks are now recovering, again because of the EU.

EU is doing the right thing. No one is telling Thailand what to do, they are just setting the standards required to sell in their market.

I'm surprised the govt has a problem with this, after all is that not their attitude to working and doing business in Thailand?

If the Thai govt doesn't like it then they can find new markets.

As people are often told here, if you don't like the way things are done you can stay away.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Bluespunk

[Briggsy]

If they hadn't moved big time into the human trafficking business, they might have got away with the illegal fishing for another couple of decades.

Now we are seeing a series of moves desparately trying to wriggle out of any compliance with international laws and standards and ridiculous announcements always along the lines, "Som....... .........kul, the Minister for ........ , announced he has spoken to his EU/Japanese/American/UN counterpart and they have stated they are very satisfied with the changes that Thailand has made."

[Ricardo]

The current PM appears to have a problem, with non-Thais having an opinion about local practices & working-conditions, but there is a precedent for this ... another former Thai PM who famously exclaimed that the U.N. was not his father !

Speaking from a farang's point-of-view, one can only say, 'Welcome the Real World' !

Rather than expecting to drag the world's standards on fisheries (or treatment of political-refugees from China, or aviation safety-standards) down to a lower level, perhaps Thais should be planning to raise their own game, up to normal international standards ?

[jonnyscot]

Sure it's the fault of the fishermen for overfishing, but because no one stopped them until now,, it's the "nature of the beast" in every fishing community and most businesses worldwide,, take as much as you can get is the way it's done,,

Declining fish stocks is a result of the overfishing, to stop or reduce the overfishing takes time, thailand needs it's fishing fleet and cannot afford to lose so many boats, although the fleet needs reducing, policing and new regulations implemented, all this will never be achieved in such a short time,

the powers that be in Europe have a habit of telling everyone else to get their house in order but forget about their own,,

the British /Scottish fishing industry springs to mind as a perfect example of this

The British/Scottish fleets are very tightly regulated because of the EU and fishing stocks are now recovering, again because of the EU.

EU is doing the right thing. No one is telling Thailand what to do, they are just setting the standards required to sell in their market.

I'm surprised the govt has a problem with this, after all is that not their attitude to working and doing business in Thailand?

If the Thai govt doesn't like it then they can find new markets.

As people are often told here, if you don't like the way things are done you can stay away.

What I was implying is the British were forced to implement smaller mesh sizes whilst other Euro countries fished freely in UK waters with 80mm and smaller mesh sizes whilst Brits were using 120mm mesh sizes,, difficult to take when fishing in your own waters,, yes eventually the EU got some order installed, but they sure ain't all squeaky clean,, I think I'd go along with some others who have suggested other motives by EU

[JAG]

Sure it's the fault of the fishermen for overfishing, but because no one stopped them until now,, it's the "nature of the beast" in every fishing community and most businesses worldwide,, take as much as you can get is the way it's done,,

Declining fish stocks is a result of the overfishing, to stop or reduce the overfishing takes time, thailand needs it's fishing fleet and cannot afford to lose so many boats, although the fleet needs reducing, policing and new regulations implemented, all this will never be achieved in such a short time,

the powers that be in Europe have a habit of telling everyone else to get their house in order but forget about their own,,

the British /Scottish fishing industry springs to mind as a perfect example of this

The British/Scottish fleets are very tightly regulated because of the EU and fishing stocks are now recovering, again because of the EU.

EU is doing the right thing. No one is telling Thailand what to do, they are just setting the standards required to sell in their market.

I'm surprised the govt has a problem with this, after all is that not their attitude to working and doing business in Thailand?

If the Thai govt doesn't like it then they can find new markets.

As people are often told here, if you don't like the way things are done you can stay away.

What I was implying is the British were forced to implement smaller mesh sizes whilst other Euro countries fished freely in UK waters with 80mm and smaller mesh sizes whilst Brits were using 120mm mesh sizes,, difficult to take when fishing in your own waters,, yes eventually the EU got some order installed, but they sure ain't all squeaky clean,, I think I'd go along with some others who have suggested other motives by EU

You may well be right about EU motives, but that doesn't excuse illegal fishing practices, and in particular the issues regarding slavery and human trafficking which colour any consideration of the Thai fishing industries case. Until these issues are effectively and transparently addressed Thailand can bleat as much as it likes about motives, no one will listen. This has been going on for a long time, not just for the life of this government but it has now come to a boil, and it's not going to go away

[jerojero]

Pretty good at lashing out at everything he dislikes. What a statesman!

[Down the rabbit hole]

I find myself in full agreement with those commentators who think badly of Prayuth. This business with slagging off the US and then the EU is an exercise in duplicity, for while he is speaking to the Thai market (which in general isn't very bright but is encumbered with the enforced culture of 'Thainess', which is not of their own doing), behind their backs. he and his lackeys are pleading for more time, or making press releases in TL particularly for the benefit of foreign governments whom he hopes are reading Thai newspapers and watching Thai television. The latest comments from him on the forthcoming TIP report are a particularly good example of him grovelling without wanting to appear to grovel. The man has one face for Thais and a multitude of other faces for foreigners.

I believe history will record Prayuth not only as a treasonous criminal. but as a considerable detriment to the standing of Thailand in the world. Quite why he has so many leg-humpers in these forums is beyond me, I think I had assumed (wrongly as it turns out), that foreigners in Thailand were generally smarter and better educated than Thais. My bad.

Prayuth and his gang of treasonous thugs and sycophants are not an asset for Thailand, they are a liability. It would be a very good lesson for them all to be:

Red carded by the EU
Sanctioned by the USA under TIP
Banned from flying to their most profitable air routes - if profitable is the right word ever to use in respect of TG.

Thais, the clowns they elect and the gangsters they allow to sieze power from the clowns they elect badly need to learn that if you want the benefits of playing in the international community's sandpit, then there are rules. and nobody gives a damn about how 'special' Thais believe themselves to be.

[Just1Voice]

In reality, Payuth and Co. don't give a damn about the international opinion. This particular coup was held for one reason, and one reason only, and it's all "internal" and has to do with the control of power after a certain event happens. I don't know if it's okay to mention it, but if you look for Andrew McGregor on the net, you'll find some very informative, and well written articles concerning the coup. He has nailed it on the head. Until that event happens, and the power struggle is finally settled, everything else, including their bitching over the EU and FAA is merely window dressing.

[Down the rabbit hole]

In reality, Payuth and Co. don't give a damn about the international opinion. This particular coup was held for one reason, and one reason only, and it's all "internal" and has to do with the control of power after a certain event happens. I don't know if it's okay to mention it, but if you look for Andrew McGregor on the net, you'll find some very informative, and well written articles concerning the coup. He has nailed it on the head. Until that event happens, and the power struggle is finally settled, everything else, including their bitching over the EU and FAA is merely window dressing.

Hmmm, maybe. Personally I think you're half right. Yes I know about Andy McG and have read most of what he's written on the matter - good and not so good. But he tends to peddle one viewpoint to the exclusion of others or parts of others and in my view, the real situation is more complex than just his take on it.

In my opinion, Prayuth does care about international opinion, but he's such a ham-fisted bugger that he alienates most people he comes into contact with. If you look at every single photograph of him mincing around in the international community, the body language and a careful analysis of what they actually say (as opposed to what the Thai press claim they said), the loathing is obvious. The man's a buffoon and is both recognised and treated accordingly - though not in public, that would be bad form.

What supports him is 3 things:

1. The slavish obedience of the Thai grunts - propagandised into unthinking obedience - same as every army in the world. Paradoxically, this is why he was (and perhaps still is) scared of a counter-coup by grunts mindlessly following orders from someone else, first the watermelon grunts whom he has tried to reshuffle into impotency, and then by Prem's loyal grunts.

2. The kleptocracy (amaat), who want one only thing from him - a continuation of their hegemony and 'right-to-rule' in defiance of all principles of modern government. They want a perpetual feudal privilege.

3. The support of the Thai people, a large minority of whom are rabid Thaksin-haters - because of the propaganda war waged against Thaskin by an ammat who chose to think he was rivalling or could one day rival the popularity of a certain well-known figure. Hence the hatred of 'populist' policies by the anti-Thaksin brigade, shared by a few ignorati commenters in many places.. The support of the Thai people however, has been changing as they become more aware of the tricks, devices and excesses of the 'powerful and wealthy' and their obnoxious offspring. Their continued support will likely be dependent on the price they have to pay for keeping Prayuth on, and that will be influenced by the economy (now in a dire state, nothing to do with any 'global slowdown'). This is human nature and Thai nature is very close to the animal kingdom. Therefore, actions against Thailand in respect of TIP, illegal fishing and air transport will undermine Prayuth's support. It seems to me that he's an ignorant and thick-skinned fellow - an archetypal infantry grunt, so it will be the business-savvy amaat who will recognise first that he's past his sell-by date. We may already have seen this in the increasing rift between him and Prem, who are each backed by separate factions of the armed forces. The amaat back Prem because he always delivers, but Prem is already a December man and soon, he won't be around. Fate may yet put a finger in his and his supporter's eye.

Phew. OK. I may be wrong on parts of the above, but I don't think so. Despite what Thais say, there is nothing subtle or complex about Thai politics, there is the anarchy and chaos of the ignorant and poorly-educated which masquerades as supreme skill. Ultimately, the psychology of all these people boils down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Take away their money and they will very quickly go down the pyramid and come to the heel of the majority on whom they have preyed for so long.

Sorry if this seemed off-topic, it isn't really, everything in Thailand is related and everything comes back to this.

Edited July 26, 2015 by Down the rabbit hole

[mark131v]

In reality, Payuth and Co. don't give a damn about the international opinion. This particular coup was held for one reason, and one reason only, and it's all "internal" and has to do with the control of power after a certain event happens. I don't know if it's okay to mention it, but if you look for Andrew McGregor on the net, you'll find some very informative, and well written articles concerning the coup. He has nailed it on the head. Until that event happens, and the power struggle is finally settled, everything else, including their bitching over the EU and FAA is merely window dressing.

Hmmm, maybe. Personally I think you're half right. Yes I know about Andy McG and have read most of what he's written on the matter - good and not so good. But he tends to peddle one viewpoint to the exclusion of others or parts of others and in my view, the real situation is more complex than just his take on it.

In my opinion, Prayuth does care about international opinion, but he's such a ham-fisted bugger that he alienates most people he comes into contact with. If you look at every single photograph of him mincing around in the international community, the body language and a careful analysis of what they actually say (as opposed to what the Thai press claim they said), the loathing is obvious. The man's a buffoon and is both recognised and treated accordingly - though not in public, that would be bad form.

What supports him is 3 things:

1. The slavish obedience of the Thai grunts - propagandised into unthinking obedience - same as every army in the world. Paradoxically, this is why he was (and perhaps still is) scared of a counter-coup by grunts mindlessly following orders from someone else, first the watermelon grunts whom he has tried to reshuffle into impotency, and then by Prem's loyal grunts.

2. The kleptocracy (amaat), who want one only thing from him - a continuation of their hegemony and 'right-to-rule' in defiance of all principles of modern government. They want a perpetual feudal privilege.

3. The support of the Thai people, a large minority of whom are rabid Thaksin-haters - because of the propaganda war waged against Thaskin by an ammat who chose to think he was rivalling or could one day rival the popularity of a certain well-known figure. Hence the hatred of 'populist' policies by the anti-Thaksin brigade, shared by a few ignorati commenters in many places.. The support of the Thai people however, has been changing as they become more aware of the tricks, devices and excesses of the 'powerful and wealthy' and their obnoxious offspring. Their continued support will likely be dependent on the price they have to pay for keeping Prayuth on, and that will be influenced by the economy (now in a dire state, nothing to do with any 'global slowdown'). This is human nature and Thai nature is very close to the animal kingdom. Therefore, actions against Thailand in respect of TIP, illegal fishing and air transport will undermine Prayuth's support. It seems to me that he's an ignorant and thick-skinned fellow - an archetypal infantry grunt, so it will be the business-savvy amaat who will recognise first that he's past his sell-by date. We may already have seen this in the increasing rift between him and Prem, who are each backed by separate factions of the armed forces. The amaat back Prem because he always delivers, but Prem is already a December man and soon, he won't be around. Fate may yet put a finger in his and his supporter's eye.

Phew. OK. I may be wrong on parts of the above, but I don't think so. Despite what Thais say, there is nothing subtle or complex about Thai politics, there is the anarchy and chaos of the ignorant and poorly-educated which masquerades as supreme skill. Ultimately, the psychology of all these people boils down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Take away their money and they will very quickly go down the pyramid and come to the heel of the majority on whom they have preyed for so long.

Sorry if this seemed off-topic, it isn't really, everything in Thailand is related and everything comes back to this.

Succinctly put I think you have hit the nail on the head!!

[Thai at Heart]

I'll go against the grain here and suggest the general has done as much as he could've done in such a short time,, most likely he has had many issues to undo/fix from the previous administrations of both yingluck and I'm sad to say Abhisit,

I guess the 6 months was always an impossible task, but at least he has made some small inroads which is more than can be said about the others

Holey moley. There's more of us?

You do know the point is he doesn't have to do it all himself. There have been God knows how many army or navy guys sitting as minister for fisheries over the years. What have they been upto.

All I know is that right now, barely any boats comply. What's he going to do? Give out the logbooks himself.? His ability to achieve anything is very limited, partly because he throws tantrums like this.

He is a kid.

[Thai at Heart]

These things take time, give him a chance.

How come no one is looking into Burmese, Indonesian, even Malaysian fishing industries.

Thailand must be a problem because it has a Military Government, Bull Shit!

Stop the threats and let Thailand have time to sort this out.

Boat owners are selling their boats, good they probable can't produce the necessary papers to prove ownership, and taxes paid.

Yep, the Burmese and buying the boats, how about that!

The Malaysians are in deep shit, took time as they are better at keeping secrets, the tip of the iceberg is visible and soon it will be big enough to sink the boat.

I am still wondering why no one is criticizing,China, Iran, Iraq, Sudan the list goes on and on, Why is Thailand picked on when the real Killers of the world get away with murder and no one says anything

There are no guns on the streets, people are secure in their homes, crime on citizen is very low just as it is against tourists.

Comparatively "The Kingdom" of Thailand is the safest country in the world.

On this forum we only get the bad things that happen to people, look at the statistics lo low to even calculate.

The economic refuges send them home, ileagel workers send the home. They are a drain on limited resources at the present time.

Patriotism and Thainess are very much needed now in "The Kingdom"

I interact with Thai's and Farangs every day the only complaints I hear are "personal preferences" no hot water, food to hot, immigration slow long lines. Nothing substantive or really important, all are happy, so why do all most bitches seem to come from this forum?

You're way off the mark. While illegal fisheries flourish around the world, few are as active as the Thai fishing boat owners. They fish in the waters of all neighbouring countries, even as far as Indonesia. It's common to have several boats under the same license, which have resulted in far to many vessels and no control over how much fish is actually caught. As for Myanmar, they lack vessels, but partly due to the Thais activities in their waters (which were legal until last year, but not on the scale that was actually happening), catches are diminishing.

When that is said, Prayut's government has actually done more than any other government the last few decades to fix this. The problem is that fishing boat owners have immense influence locally and that enormous amounts of money are involved. In reality, the government doesn't have the means to control this in a proper way unless they replace all corrupt government officials that are supposed to oversee this nationwide. Another problem is that a EU boycott probably won't affect the fishing boats much. There are other markets, they can deliver in neighbouring countries and they can deliver fish for production of fishmeal, a product that is profitable and very much sought after worldwide.

The only reason this government did anything was because of the yellow card. If they deliver their catches in other countries these countries will get banned with Thailand. If you read the EU regulations you will know this. If they divert the fish to fishmeal they will decrease their income to +- 20% of their present income, because fishmeal is much cheaper than fish for human consumption. Outside of the EU and the US there are very few open markets (markets not giving protection to their own fisheries).

I agree, but they are still options. These people are, as most criminals are, rather flexible, and will do what is necessary to make money, even if it's less profitable than the current solution. Since the seafood industry all over Southeast Asia is not very transparent, it will take time before EU figures out what is happening, and when they do, Thailand is already off the hook, and the fishermen don't really care if other nations get into problems. Also, they are not nearly as dependent on seafood export to EU as Thailand is.

What do you mean? The EU can't figure out what is happening. All of a sudden buyers in Europe start being offered huge volumes of discounted fish at low prices.

Yeah yeah yeah... Stupid farang can't understand Asia. Your attitude is most of the reason Thailand is in this mess already.

Buyers understand their markets very well.

[JAG]

In reality, Payuth and Co. don't give a damn about the international opinion. This particular coup was held for one reason, and one reason only, and it's all "internal" and has to do with the control of power after a certain event happens. I don't know if it's okay to mention it, but if you look for Andrew McGregor on the net, you'll find some very informative, and well written articles concerning the coup. He has nailed it on the head. Until that event happens, and the power struggle is finally settled, everything else, including their bitching over the EU and FAA is merely window dressing.

Hmmm, maybe. Personally I think you're half right. Yes I know about Andy McG and have read most of what he's written on the matter - good and not so good. But he tends to peddle one viewpoint to the exclusion of others or parts of others and in my view, the real situation is more complex than just his take on it.

In my opinion, Prayuth does care about international opinion, but he's such a ham-fisted bugger that he alienates most people he comes into contact with. If you look at every single photograph of him mincing around in the international community, the body language and a careful analysis of what they actually say (as opposed to what the Thai press claim they said), the loathing is obvious. The man's a buffoon and is both recognised and treated accordingly - though not in public, that would be bad form.

What supports him is 3 things:

1. The slavish obedience of the Thai grunts - propagandised into unthinking obedience - same as every army in the world. Paradoxically, this is why he was (and perhaps still is) scared of a counter-coup by grunts mindlessly following orders from someone else, first the watermelon grunts whom he has tried to reshuffle into impotency, and then by Prem's loyal grunts.

2. The kleptocracy (amaat), who want one only thing from him - a continuation of their hegemony and 'right-to-rule' in defiance of all principles of modern government. They want a perpetual feudal privilege.

3. The support of the Thai people, a large minority of whom are rabid Thaksin-haters - because of the propaganda war waged against Thaskin by an ammat who chose to think he was rivalling or could one day rival the popularity of a certain well-known figure. Hence the hatred of 'populist' policies by the anti-Thaksin brigade, shared by a few ignorati commenters in many places.. The support of the Thai people however, has been changing as they become more aware of the tricks, devices and excesses of the 'powerful and wealthy' and their obnoxious offspring. Their continued support will likely be dependent on the price they have to pay for keeping Prayuth on, and that will be influenced by the economy (now in a dire state, nothing to do with any 'global slowdown'). This is human nature and Thai nature is very close to the animal kingdom. Therefore, actions against Thailand in respect of TIP, illegal fishing and air transport will undermine Prayuth's support. It seems to me that he's an ignorant and thick-skinned fellow - an archetypal infantry grunt, so it will be the business-savvy amaat who will recognise first that he's past his sell-by date. We may already have seen this in the increasing rift between him and Prem, who are each backed by separate factions of the armed forces. The amaat back Prem because he always delivers, but Prem is already a December man and soon, he won't be around. Fate may yet put a finger in his and his supporter's eye.

Phew. OK. I may be wrong on parts of the above, but I don't think so. Despite what Thais say, there is nothing subtle or complex about Thai politics, there is the anarchy and chaos of the ignorant and poorly-educated which masquerades as supreme skill. Ultimately, the psychology of all these people boils down to Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Take away their money and they will very quickly go down the pyramid and come to the heel of the majority on whom they have preyed for so long.

Sorry if this seemed off-topic, it isn't really, everything in Thailand is related and everything comes back to this.

A well argued and thoughtful posts which cuts to the meat of the matter; except that I was an infantry man - a grunt - for many years, and I am a sensitive sophisticated cultured soul, who if anything suffers from an excess of empathy.:rolleyes: