How to stop/ slow down?

[big carl]

A huge percentage of the farang I know in Thailand are alcoholics........one way or another their life is dominated by booze.

It seems to me their problem is a result of their lie history.

until moving to Thailand, most of these people has jobs that kept them pout of circulation for long periods of time and then allowed then a long break.

e.g. oil worker, construction civil engineering, the military etc.

They worked hard for long periods and then played hard - sadly playing hard usually just consisted of bing drinking and the associated "partying".

when they settle in Thailand they don't work or work less and their leisure time increases exponentially.....so they just do what they used to do...only now it's full-time. Within months they are drinking too much.

So the crux is really boredom and looking for something to do - alcohol passes the time.

The solution is they need something to do....i.e. an interest or a project that doesn't involve alcohol - you need to know yourself and really think about your true motives.

I'd suggest that once you have a point to your life, you will lose interest in Drink. I f you give up COMPLETELY for a couple of months you will also begin to realise how much drinking has dominated your life also what prats your drinking "mates" are.

To carry this out you have to reconsider what you do in the evenings etc - you don't plan your schedule around bars or events that require/include alcohol......avoid events and people that expect alcohol.....find yourself and learn a new lifestyle.

You are quite correct there are many that became alcoholic after they quit working. They are the really sad ones. Very hard to reach them.

But the majority of us were functioning alcoholics long before retirement age, Most of us packed it in before retirement or we would have died if we hadn't. Many of us lost numerous jobs over it. But continued on.

[impulse]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

[Wilson Smith]

More info LINE ID: aa.bangkok

1. Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?
Most of us in A.A. made all kinds of promises to ourselves and to our families. We could not keep them. Then we came to A.A. A.A. said: "Just try not to drink today." (If you do not drink today, you cannot get drunk today.)

2. Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?
In A.A. we do not tell anyone to do anything. We just talk about our own drinking, the trouble we got into, and how we stopped. We will be glad to help you, if you want us to.

3. Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?
We tried all kinds of ways. We made our drinks weak. Or just drank beer. Or we did not drink cocktails. Or only drank on weekends. You name it, we tried it. But if we drank anything with alcohol in it, we usually got drunk eventually.

4. Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?
Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking "socially."

5. Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?
At one time or another, most of us have wondered why we were not like most people, who really can take it or leave it.

6. Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?
Be honest! Doctors say that if you have a problem with alcohol and keep on drinking, it will get worse -- never better. Eventually, you will die, or end up in an institution for the rest of your life. The only hope is to stop drinking.

7. Has your drinking caused trouble at home?
Before we came into A.A., most of us said that it was the people or problems at home that made us drink. We could not see that our drinking just made everything worse. It never solved problems anywhere or anytime.

8. Do you ever try to get "extra" drinks at a party because you do not get enough?
Most of us used to have a "few" before we started out if we thought it was going to be that kind of party. And if drinks were not served fast enough, we would go someplace else to get more.

9. Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don't mean to?
Many of us kidded ourselves into thinking that we drank because we wanted to. After we came into A.A., we found out that once we started to drink, we couldn't stop.

10. Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?
Many of us admit now that we "called in sick" lots of times when the truth was that we were hung-over or on a drunk.

11. Do you have "blackouts"?
A "blackout" is when we have been drinking hours or days which we cannot remember. When we came to A.A., we found out that this is a pretty sure sign of alcoholic drinking.

12. Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?
Many of us started to drink because drinking made life seem better, at least for a while. By the time we got into A.A., we felt trapped. We were drinking to live and living to drink. We were sick and tired of being sick and tired.
Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol. Why do we say this? Because thousands of people in A.A. have said so for many years. They found out the truth about themselves — the hard way. But again, only you can decide whether you think A.A. is for you. Try to keep an open mind on the subject. If the answer is YES, we will be glad to show you how we stopped drinking ourselves

[pedro01]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

[big carl]

More info LINE ID: aa.bangkok

1. Have you ever decided to stop drinking for a week or so, but only lasted for a couple of days?

Most of us in A.A. made all kinds of promises to ourselves and to our families. We could not keep them. Then we came to A.A. A.A. said: "Just try not to drink today." (If you do not drink today, you cannot get drunk today.)

2. Do you wish people would mind their own business about your drinking-- stop telling you what to do?

In A.A. we do not tell anyone to do anything. We just talk about our own drinking, the trouble we got into, and how we stopped. We will be glad to help you, if you want us to.

3. Have you ever switched from one kind of drink to another in the hope that this would keep you from getting drunk?

We tried all kinds of ways. We made our drinks weak. Or just drank beer. Or we did not drink cocktails. Or only drank on weekends. You name it, we tried it. But if we drank anything with alcohol in it, we usually got drunk eventually.

4. Have you had to have an eye-opener upon awakening during the past year?

Do you need a drink to get started, or to stop shaking? This is a pretty sure sign that you are not drinking "socially."

5. Do you envy people who can drink without getting into trouble?

At one time or another, most of us have wondered why we were not like most people, who really can take it or leave it.

6. Have you had problems connected with drinking during the past year?

Be honest! Doctors say that if you have a problem with alcohol and keep on drinking, it will get worse -- never better. Eventually, you will die, or end up in an institution for the rest of your life. The only hope is to stop drinking.

7. Has your drinking caused trouble at home?

Before we came into A.A., most of us said that it was the people or problems at home that made us drink. We could not see that our drinking just made everything worse. It never solved problems anywhere or anytime.

8. Do you ever try to get "extra" drinks at a party because you do not get enough?

Most of us used to have a "few" before we started out if we thought it was going to be that kind of party. And if drinks were not served fast enough, we would go someplace else to get more.

9. Do you tell yourself you can stop drinking any time you want to, even though you keep getting drunk when you don't mean to?

Many of us kidded ourselves into thinking that we drank because we wanted to. After we came into A.A., we found out that once we started to drink, we couldn't stop.

10. Have you missed days of work or school because of drinking?

Many of us admit now that we "called in sick" lots of times when the truth was that we were hung-over or on a drunk.

11. Do you have "blackouts"?

A "blackout" is when we have been drinking hours or days which we cannot remember. When we came to A.A., we found out that this is a pretty sure sign of alcoholic drinking.

12. Have you ever felt that your life would be better if you did not drink?

Many of us started to drink because drinking made life seem better, at least for a while. By the time we got into A.A., we felt trapped. We were drinking to live and living to drink. We were sick and tired of being sick and tired.

Did you answer YES four or more times? If so, you are probably in trouble with alcohol. Why do we say this? Because thousands of people in A.A. have said so for many years. They found out the truth about themselves — the hard way. But again, only you can decide whether you think A.A. is for you. Try to keep an open mind on the subject. If the answer is YES, we will be glad to show you how we stopped drinking ourselves

Because thousands of people in A.A. have said so for many years

Make that hundreds of thousands of us and probably up into the millions

[pedro01]

Alcoholism is NOT a disease.

It's an addiction. It is the substance that creates the addiction. Alcohol is no different from any other addiction. You can get to the other side of it, be cured. It is not a disease despite what 2 guys in 1933 made up when they founded AA.

I don't know your sick motives but it is highly inappropriate to say "Alcoholism is NOT a disease." when it is.

Just to name a few professionals that say it is a disease - The American Medical Association, The World Health Organization, American Psychiatric Association, the American Hospital Association, the American Public Health Association, the National Association of Social Workers, the American College of Physicians , Joint Committee of the National Council on Alcoholism and Drug Dependence and the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

Now most of these are doctors specializing in alcoholism/alcohol abuse. Are you a doctor? If not please keep your stupid ideas to yourself.

I'd love to hear his reply to this!

He has none. He knows it is not a disease because his bartender told him.

Alcoholism is also a disease of denial. Some go to great lengths even die to prove it isn't.

Nope - no bartender told me.

Addiction to many substances is listed as a medical condition.

The AMA themselves put forward the "disease theory of alcoholism" as just that - a theory.

The AA version of "alcoholism as a disease" clearly states that alcoholics are different from people that are able to drink sociably. That is nonsense. Alcoholism is merely a physical and mental addiction to an addictive substance.

Like all addictions, there are many cures. Many with high rates of success. Medical science will continue to excel in this field without the need of a higher power.

[big carl]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

The only ones who fit that description live in your mind. You obviously are not familiar with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It talks about heavy drinkers stopping.

You are unqualified to make statements about it. The Big Book says on the cover this is the text for Alcoholics Anonymous. You would have to read it first to be qualified and being as you are just the normal run of the mill drunk you would be rewriting it as you go, We have all been there. Until the one day came when it was the end and we had no more excuses. To be honest many didn't get that low. If you wish you may.

I did and take it from me it was not a pretty picture. Ask any one who lived through it with me. They wanted nothing to do with me.

Now take your drivel off to the bar or if you are already there ask for another one. You know you are going to.

[pedro01]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

The only ones who fit that description live in your mind. You obviously are not familiar with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It talks about heavy drinkers stopping.

You are unqualified to make statements about it. The Big Book says on the cover this is the text for Alcoholics Anonymous. You would have to read it first to be qualified and being as you are just the normal run of the mill drunk you would be rewriting it as you go, We have all been there. Until the one day came when it was the end and we had no more excuses. To be honest many didn't get that low. If you wish you may.

I did and take it from me it was not a pretty picture. Ask any one who lived through it with me. They wanted nothing to do with me.

Now take your drivel off to the bar or if you are already there ask for another one. You know you are going to.

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

[gerryBScot]

Pedro why don't you set up your own group, call it Scientific Recovery or whatever you want, so that the lurkers can make a start. There are folk who read these threads who are caught up in this problem called drink. I really don't care where they go for help but I would like them to feel able to approach you, AA and any other body or individual who might be able to offer assistance and support if not guidance and advice.

That's why I take exception to you misrepresenting AA. Let me correct your latest howler about AA - it is not 100% will power. You could say its origins lie in the acknowledgement of its founders that reliance on self will and will-power were the real reason for the downfall of most people struggling to quit drinking. As the book you disparage says a few sentences later ... 'without help it is too much'.

I had a long history of trying to do it on will power; I think the phrase is to 'white knuckle' it; in 30 years of drinking I was once successful in not drinking for 4 weeks; usually I didn't last a week normally little more than 3-4 days. It never got better. I got sober in London. What really helped was the informal support mechanisms that enabled newcomers to hang out with other sober drunks between meetings. Yeah that involved drinking a lot of coffee and tea but it really helped me and a lot of others stay sober. I found it very useful to be surrounded by like minded people and no one ever suggested we should have a 'wee one' or maybe a joint just to take the edge off...

So please do something to help drunks and please if you are going to take a pop at AA get it right and consider the implications if your posts are keeping people away from AA. That might be a good thing from your perspective, but you are not offering them an alternative other than a specious debate about treatment models.

[pedro01]

Pedro why don't you set up your own group, call it Scientific Recovery or whatever you want, so that the lurkers can make a start. There are folk who read these threads who are caught up in this problem called drink. I really don't care where they go for help but I would like them to feel able to approach you, AA and any other body or individual who might be able to offer assistance and support if not guidance and advice.

That's why I take exception to you misrepresenting AA. Let me correct your latest howler about AA - it is not 100% will power. You could say its origins lie in the acknowledgement of its founders that reliance on self will and will-power were the real reason for the downfall of most people struggling to quit drinking. As the book you disparage says a few sentences later ... 'without help it is too much'.

I had a long history of trying to do it on will power; I think the phrase is to 'white knuckle' it; in 30 years of drinking I was once successful in not drinking for 4 weeks; usually I didn't last a week normally little more than 3-4 days. It never got better. I got sober in London. What really helped was the informal support mechanisms that enabled newcomers to hang out with other sober drunks between meetings. Yeah that involved drinking a lot of coffee and tea but it really helped me and a lot of others stay sober. I found it very useful to be surrounded by like minded people and no one ever suggested we should have a 'wee one' or maybe a joint just to take the edge off...

So please do something to help drunks and please if you are going to take a pop at AA get it right and consider the implications if your posts are keeping people away from AA. That might be a good thing from your perspective, but you are not offering them an alternative other than a specious debate about treatment models.

I don't need to set up a group because the treatment protocols already exist. I just think that most people are scared to go to a doctor as they don't want alcoholism on their medical records and that most read forums like this and are given the impression that only AA works. The reality is that it works for about 1 in 20.

I understand that many hear are at the opposite side of their issue with booze than you or I. That is why I want to reach out to them and tell them there is hope. That there are many options and that the problem is one of physical addiction. I am in no way understating the severity of the problem.

AA is pure willpower. There are no prescription medications used to alleviate cravings or produce negative side effects when drinking. There is no professional therapist to help you get to the root cause of your problem. It is pure willpower.

Let's face it - it's not God. You think God cures drunks but not kids with cancer?

Look at how confrontational and insulting you AA proponents get when someone dares to question the dogma. Yet none of the issues raised are really addressed.

Honestly - do you really think this is a healthy thing to be teaching people:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

The best thing to do with AA is go there and take what you need - it is a support group and can be effective. Just don't buy into the lifelong problem thing because that may become a self fulfilling prophecy.

[gerryBScot]

I'm disappointed but not surprised by your response. I'll leave it there. Good luck.

[never me]

I have read most of this thread and pedro has just been put on my ignore button.

[Wilson Smith]

As I know the point of AA is not to argue with non believers or anyone really, the point is to be there when someone has a desire to stop drinking. AA members share their experience on how they stopped drinking, so this is why you will hear this way from AA members. If someone can find other way to stop we hope that it works for them. The goal is give relief to the suffering alcoholic. If someone does not want to stop or does not want help from an AA member then it will not work but if someone does want help why would someone interfere, quote stats, insults and discourage someone from the possibility of finding piece of mind. When someone is a hopeless alcoholic we hope they can find any path to hope.

"It must never be forgotten that the purpose of Alcoholics Anonymous is to sober up alcoholics. There is no religious or spiritual requirement for membership. No demands are made on anyone. An experience is offered which members may accept or reject. That is up to them."

a common question,

There's a lot of talk about God, though, isn't there?

The majority of AA members believe that we have found the solution to our drinking problem not through individual willpower, but through a power greater than ourselves. However, everyone defines this power as he or she wishes. Many people call it God, others think it is the AA group, still others don't believe in it at all. There is room in AA for people of all shades of belief and nonbelief.

If someone would like to have more information about exactly how I stopped drinking please feel free to LINE: aa.bangkok

[GarryP]

I don't think Pedro was disparaging of AA as an organization. He even went so far as to say it is effective for some. He, however, believes there are alternatives which are often overlooked as a result of the zealousness of some AA members and questions some of the "teachings". I myself have encountered people who swear that it is the only way to get your life under control. This is purely based on their own experience. It has worked for them so kudos to them for getting their lives sorted out. But to bang on about it being the only way is wrong. Different things work for different people.

Is alcoholism a disease? I don't know, but I would tend to the view that it is simply an addiction and that some people are perhaps genetically more predisposed to alcoholism. My wife had 10 brothers and sisters (including herself) and of those there are 4 alcoholics and 1 drug addict. The family was not particularly poor and three of those received college educations. None of them have been able to quit, except the drug addict, but that is more because they really do not want to quit and are blind to the damage it has and is doing to their families and themselves.

Addiction in itself is an interesting topic and we have all probably heard of people who have "addictive personalities". The figures in my wife's family alone would indicate there is something else involved apart from simple recklessness leading to addiction.

I quit smoking as a result of hypnosis and a very strong desire to quit. I used to binge drink terribly and just got sick of myself, the money wasted, the wasted days hungover, feeling lousy, blackouts and not knowing what I had done, embarrassment, etc. Again, I really wanted to quit and realized moderation was not an option for me, so after a single self hypnosis session, quit. In both cases, there was a very strong desire to quit and I believe that is the defining point between success and failure, regardless which approach you take. If you go into it because you are being pushed by others, and are doing it for them and not yourself, you are very unlikely to succeed. If you go into it halfheartedly, you are very unlikely to succeed. Taking medicines may reduce the cravings, and talking within a group may help you get through the rough patches of self doubt, but ultimately it is down to the person to want the end result of sobriety or being nicotine free.

[Richie23]

"I used to binge drink terribly and just got sick of myself, the money wasted, the wasted days hungover, feeling lousy, blackouts and not knowing what I had done, embarrassment, etc"

This is exactly what I am doing to myself at the moment and as much as I know it's doing me in I just can't seem to stop it. Maybe I will give hypnosis a try too

[impulse]

"I used to binge drink terribly and just got sick of myself, the money wasted, the wasted days hungover, feeling lousy, blackouts and not knowing what I had done, embarrassment, etc"

This is exactly what I am doing to myself at the moment and as much as I know it's doing me in I just can't seem to stop it. Maybe I will give hypnosis a try too

There's a chair all warmed up for you... Just pick the meeting. http://www.aathailand.org/

For me, it wasn't about stopping. That was easy. I was a binge drinker who could go weeks between benders. I was very lucky that way. Some guys struggle mightily with stopping for even one day. I didn't have to.

For me, it was about what to do with my time and the daily angst of life when I wasn't drinking. Because drinking was my solution to escape life's problems. The angst didn't go away just because I stopped drinking. (Though a lot of my problems seemed to go away when I wasn't spending my money and my time in bars. Go figure)

I needed to learn a new way to deal with my life's problems. For that, I got to watch and interact with guys living the kind of lives I wanted to live, and I got to actually ask them how they did it. Even the taboo questions that you'll never get to ask in polite society. Even that embarrassing thing with the chicken was a fair game topic of discussion.

Open offer- PM me if you want someone to walk you into your first meeting in Bangkok.

[pedro01]

Have you actually sat down with a drink and actually thought about what you are doing?

Try this:

Go somewhere quiet - where you wont be disturbed - a quiet pub @ lunchtime or off the beaten track.

Order a beer/whatever you drink.

Take a sip.

- how does it taste? How does it smell? I mean really focus on the taste/smell & nothing else

- how does it feel going down

- what other thoughts/feelings come to mind as you take that first sip

Carry on along the same lines. keep drinking that drink, keep a sharp focus on your mind, your body, smell, taste etc

- as the effects kick in, keep a sharp focus on what that feeling actually is - is it a pleasant feeling? Where do you feel it? The head, the gut, the heart?

Carry on drinking as you normally would but with no distractions. As you carry on and the feelings intensify, how are you feeling? How is the taste/smell as you progressively drink more?

I am not going to tell you what I found when my therapist told me to do this because I don't want to put ideas into your heads.

But for those wanting to get a grips on their drinking, this is a very interesting exercise.

We are pretty much programmed by the media to associate drinking with 'coolness' (James Bond always had a drink), fun etc. etc - we rarely take time to take a step back and examine the drinking itself as so often it's done with something else - like friends, a movie, surfing the web - on your mind.

So it is an interesting exercise to drink and focus solely on that activity.

[pedro01]

"I used to binge drink terribly and just got sick of myself, the money wasted, the wasted days hungover, feeling lousy, blackouts and not knowing what I had done, embarrassment, etc"

This is exactly what I am doing to myself at the moment and as much as I know it's doing me in I just can't seem to stop it. Maybe I will give hypnosis a try too

This is all of us.

It is also a lot of people that do not realize they have an issue.

Instead of putting "never drink again" in your head and punishing yourself each time you take a sip try this...

Just take a few days off & reward yourself with a pat on the back. If you do 2 and that's more than in a long time - well done you. If you do 2 and you think you can do some more - then do it.

Just don't set yourself up for failure - it brings in negative feedback.

Honestly - you should be able to do 30 days - but setting yourself a 30 day goal will sound like a mountain.

If you are not dependent, you are on the way. If you are not dependent - you should be able to do 30 days. At that point, you will have shaken off much of the cravings. It really depends how far gone you are.

If in 3 months time you are still trying to have those 2 days off - check into an AA meeting, go to a psychologist, look at the Sinclair method or Disulfiram - but do something.

To be honest - if you go to an AA meeting - try to get to one where someone is sharing their story - that may well scare the crap out of you - so even if you are not alcoholic, you will see what is ahead.

Imagine being in a room full or people and one says "you know that sound when you put your foot on the car brakes and the empty bottles all hit each other" - and everyone but you are nodding their heads... or someone says "did you ever drink and drive?" and you answer "well I drove...."

For non alcoholics - it's a hell of a wake up call. If you have a problem calling yourself an alcoholic - look at a trip to AA as a "field trip to the future"

[big carl]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

The only ones who fit that description live in your mind. You obviously are not familiar with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It talks about heavy drinkers stopping.

You are unqualified to make statements about it. The Big Book says on the cover this is the text for Alcoholics Anonymous. You would have to read it first to be qualified and being as you are just the normal run of the mill drunk you would be rewriting it as you go, We have all been there. Until the one day came when it was the end and we had no more excuses. To be honest many didn't get that low. If you wish you may.

I did and take it from me it was not a pretty picture. Ask any one who lived through it with me. They wanted nothing to do with me.

Now take your drivel off to the bar or if you are already there ask for another one. You know you are going to.

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

[pedro01]

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

The only ones who fit that description live in your mind. You obviously are not familiar with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It talks about heavy drinkers stopping.

You are unqualified to make statements about it. The Big Book says on the cover this is the text for Alcoholics Anonymous. You would have to read it first to be qualified and being as you are just the normal run of the mill drunk you would be rewriting it as you go, We have all been there. Until the one day came when it was the end and we had no more excuses. To be honest many didn't get that low. If you wish you may.

I did and take it from me it was not a pretty picture. Ask any one who lived through it with me. They wanted nothing to do with me.

Now take your drivel off to the bar or if you are already there ask for another one. You know you are going to.

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

I have read the book.

I found much of it nonsense. I have no need to rewrite it. Much of it is damaging.

Many things in the book are non-science, hence I am quoting from medical research.

You on the other hand have 100% faith in everything that is written in that book. You are repeating it, without sparing a single thought for the damage you are doing. You will not hear that a single word in and old book could be wrong or that new research could have superseded anything in that book.

What you are saying is that the one medical doctor in that book is wiser than the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which studied 43,000 alcoholics. You imply that this study must surely have been biased and paid for by the alcohol industry. You even call it an "old medical report" yet it was done in 2001-2002, which makes it much younger than your Big Book.

Do you understand how irrational you are being? "Science is biased, the book is the word". No amendments to the book are allowed. The book is perfect and science cannot ever prove anything in the book incorrect. You do know it's not the Koran, right?

So people - now you know how an "AA extremist" operates - approach with caution. Take the support from AA - it is the reason it has value.

Do not buy into the dogma or you will convince yourself you have a problem for life just as Big Carl has.

For reference, here is the study: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/74-78.htm

Here is the organization (National Institure of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism): http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Their funding

NIAAA is the lead agency in the United States for research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health effects of alcohol. As a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, NIAAA is funded by the U.S. government.

Each year, NIAAA submits its budget request to NIH. This request is incorporated into the full NIH budget request, which is sent to the President for consideration. Congress then considers the President’s budget proposal and approves, modifies, or disapproves it. Once Congress finalizes the appropriate spending bill, appropriations are made to each government agency, including NIH.

As for AA having the best record - it does not, it has one of the poorest records - you know that full well because you know how many people come to meetings a few times and never return.

[Johnniey]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

There are people here with much more experience than yourself. I have known thousands of alcoholics and trust me NONE of them can drink socially.

Alcoholics lose the power of choice in whether to have a drink or not. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. An alcoholic can NEVER drink normally again.

I think you are getting confused between alcoholics and alcohol abusers. There is a huge difference.

DSM-IV Criteria for Alcohol Abuse:

1. A maladaptive pattern of alcohol abuse leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one or more of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:
   • Recurrent alcohol use resulting in failure to fulfil major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions or expulsions from school; or neglect of children or household).
   • Recurrent alcohol use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine).
   • Recurrent alcohol-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for alcohol-related disorderly conduct).
   • Continued alcohol use despite persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the alcohol (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication or physical fights).
2. These symptoms must never have met the criteria for alcohol dependence.

DSM-IV Criteria for Alcohol Dependence:

A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three or more of the following seven criteria, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

1. Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
   • A need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve intoxication or desired effect.
   • Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol.
2. Withdrawal, as defined by either of the following:
   • The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to DSM-IV for further details).
   • Alcohol is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
3. Alcohol is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
4. There is a persistent desire or there are unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use.
5. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol or recover from its effects.
6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use.
7. Alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the alcohol (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption).

American Psychiatric Association. 1994. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.) (DSM-IV). Washington, D.C.: APA.

[big carl]

The only ones who fit that description live in your mind. You obviously are not familiar with the Big Book of Alcoholics Anonymous. It talks about heavy drinkers stopping.

You are unqualified to make statements about it. The Big Book says on the cover this is the text for Alcoholics Anonymous. You would have to read it first to be qualified and being as you are just the normal run of the mill drunk you would be rewriting it as you go, We have all been there. Until the one day came when it was the end and we had no more excuses. To be honest many didn't get that low. If you wish you may.

I did and take it from me it was not a pretty picture. Ask any one who lived through it with me. They wanted nothing to do with me.

Now take your drivel off to the bar or if you are already there ask for another one. You know you are going to.

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

I have read the book.

I found much of it nonsense. I have no need to rewrite it. Much of it is damaging.

Many things in the book are non-science, hence I am quoting from medical research.

You on the other hand have 100% faith in everything that is written in that book. You are repeating it, without sparing a single thought for the damage you are doing. You will not hear that a single word in and old book could be wrong or that new research could have superseded anything in that book.

What you are saying is that the one medical doctor in that book is wiser than the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which studied 43,000 alcoholics. You imply that this study must surely have been biased and paid for by the alcohol industry. You even call it an "old medical report" yet it was done in 2001-2002, which makes it much younger than your Big Book.

Do you understand how irrational you are being? "Science is biased, the book is the word". No amendments to the book are allowed. The book is perfect and science cannot ever prove anything in the book incorrect. You do know it's not the Koran, right?

So people - now you know how an "AA extremist" operates - approach with caution. Take the support from AA - it is the reason it has value.

Do not buy into the dogma or you will convince yourself you have a problem for life just as Big Carl has.

For reference, here is the study: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/74-78.htm

Here is the organization (National Institure of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism): http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Their funding

NIAAA is the lead agency in the United States for research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health effects of alcohol. As a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, NIAAA is funded by the U.S. government.

Each year, NIAAA submits its budget request to NIH. This request is incorporated into the full NIH budget request, which is sent to the President for consideration. Congress then considers the President’s budget proposal and approves, modifies, or disapproves it. Once Congress finalizes the appropriate spending bill, appropriations are made to each government agency, including NIH.

As for AA having the best record - it does not, it has one of the poorest records - you know that full well because you know how many people come to meetings a few times and never return.

As i said you didn't read the book. It tells you rite in the forwards that they do not have all the answers. Can you give me a figure on the number of Alcoholics who have recovered from a seeming less state of mind and body with these new scientific methods. Being scientific they will have results.

AA does not claim to be scientific.

[Johnniey]

The AA Big Book wasn't written in 1933 too.

[pedro01]

I'd respectfully request that anyone who hasn't actually quit drinking- refrain from posting advice here on how to quit drinking.

There was already a lot of confusion and too many diversions in my life when the need to quit was upon me. A lot of it was well meaning, but could have been deadly nonetheless.

What about former alcoholics that are now able to drink socially?

Why must they stop posting?

There are people here with much more experience than yourself. I have known thousands of alcoholics and trust me NONE of them can drink socially.

Alcoholics lose the power of choice in whether to have a drink or not. Once an alcoholic, always an alcoholic. An alcoholic can NEVER drink normally again.

I think you are getting confused between alcoholics and alcohol abusers. There is a huge difference.

DSM-IV Criteria for Alcohol Abuse:

1. A maladaptive pattern of alcohol abuse leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by one or more of the following, occurring within a 12-month period:
   • Recurrent alcohol use resulting in failure to fulfil major role obligations at work, school, or home (e.g., repeated absences or poor work performance related to substance use; substance-related absences, suspensions or expulsions from school; or neglect of children or household).
   • Recurrent alcohol use in situations in which it is physically hazardous (e.g., driving an automobile or operating a machine).
   • Recurrent alcohol-related legal problems (e.g., arrests for alcohol-related disorderly conduct).
   • Continued alcohol use despite persistent or recurrent social or interpersonal problems caused or exacerbated by the effects of the alcohol (e.g., arguments with spouse about consequences of intoxication or physical fights).
2. These symptoms must never have met the criteria for alcohol dependence.

DSM-IV Criteria for Alcohol Dependence:

A maladaptive pattern of alcohol use, leading to clinically significant impairment or distress, as manifested by three or more of the following seven criteria, occurring at any time in the same 12-month period:

1. Tolerance, as defined by either of the following:
   • A need for markedly increased amounts of alcohol to achieve intoxication or desired effect.
   • Markedly diminished effect with continued use of the same amount of alcohol.
2. Withdrawal, as defined by either of the following:
   • The characteristic withdrawal syndrome for alcohol (refer to DSM-IV for further details).
   • Alcohol is taken to relieve or avoid withdrawal symptoms.
3. Alcohol is often taken in larger amounts or over a longer period than was intended.
4. There is a persistent desire or there are unsuccessful efforts to cut down or control alcohol use.
5. A great deal of time is spent in activities necessary to obtain alcohol, use alcohol or recover from its effects.
6. Important social, occupational, or recreational activities are given up or reduced because of alcohol use.
7. Alcohol use is continued despite knowledge of having a persistent or recurrent physical or psychological problem that is likely to have been caused or exacerbated by the alcohol (e.g., continued drinking despite recognition that an ulcer was made worse by alcohol consumption).

American Psychiatric Association. 1994. Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.) (DSM-IV). Washington, D.C.: APA.

Whilst you may claim to know thousands of alcoholics, how can you assert that you KNOW not a single one can drink socially again?

You only beleive that because AA taught you that. They believe that too.

On the other hand, the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions studied 43,000 alcoholics, scientifically and found over 17% could drink socially again.

Yours is anecdotal evidence.

The survey is scientific evidence.

Faith vs Truth.

[pedro01]

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

I have read the book.

I found much of it nonsense. I have no need to rewrite it. Much of it is damaging.

Many things in the book are non-science, hence I am quoting from medical research.

You on the other hand have 100% faith in everything that is written in that book. You are repeating it, without sparing a single thought for the damage you are doing. You will not hear that a single word in and old book could be wrong or that new research could have superseded anything in that book.

What you are saying is that the one medical doctor in that book is wiser than the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which studied 43,000 alcoholics. You imply that this study must surely have been biased and paid for by the alcohol industry. You even call it an "old medical report" yet it was done in 2001-2002, which makes it much younger than your Big Book.

Do you understand how irrational you are being? "Science is biased, the book is the word". No amendments to the book are allowed. The book is perfect and science cannot ever prove anything in the book incorrect. You do know it's not the Koran, right?

So people - now you know how an "AA extremist" operates - approach with caution. Take the support from AA - it is the reason it has value.

Do not buy into the dogma or you will convince yourself you have a problem for life just as Big Carl has.

For reference, here is the study: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/74-78.htm

Here is the organization (National Institure of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism): http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Their funding

NIAAA is the lead agency in the United States for research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health effects of alcohol. As a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, NIAAA is funded by the U.S. government.

Each year, NIAAA submits its budget request to NIH. This request is incorporated into the full NIH budget request, which is sent to the President for consideration. Congress then considers the President’s budget proposal and approves, modifies, or disapproves it. Once Congress finalizes the appropriate spending bill, appropriations are made to each government agency, including NIH.

As for AA having the best record - it does not, it has one of the poorest records - you know that full well because you know how many people come to meetings a few times and never return.

As i said you didn't read the book. It tells you rite in the forwards that they do not have all the answers. Can you give me a figure on the number of Alcoholics who have recovered from a seeming less state of mind and body with these new scientific methods. Being scientific they will have results.

AA does not claim to be scientific.

And yet, I have read the book.

You say that AA does not have all the answers - yet it clings dogmatically to a set of 'facts' that it decrees. So whilst it doesn't have all of the answers - it's proponents state that both the AA definition and remedy for alcoholism are unassailable facts. You simply cannot take a word of that book to be untrue. It is your bible, your koran and can never be superseded buy scientific fact,

I got the book given to me in my first meeting of AA, I got the NA book the same way.

Doesn't matter how many times you try to claim I haven't read it, it will not change the fact I have.

The 2001-2002 study was about people with alcohol problems. It was a a study of alcoholism. Not a study of people with a fictional "lesser state of mind and body" that your old book made up.

[pedro01]

The AA Big Book wasn't written in 1933 too.

No - but this is when the dogma was created.

[big carl]

As i said you didn't read the book. It tells you rite in the forwards that they do not have all the answers. Can you give me a figure on the number of Alcoholics who have recovered from a seeming less state of mind and body with these new scientific methods. Being scientific they will have results.

AA does not claim to be scientific.

And yet, I have read the book.

You say that AA does not have all the answers - yet it clings dogmatically to a set of 'facts' that it decrees. So whilst it doesn't have all of the answers - it's proponents state that both the AA definition and remedy for alcoholism are unassailable facts. You simply cannot take a word of that book to be untrue. It is your bible, your koran and can never be superseded buy scientific fact,

I got the book given to me in my first meeting of AA, I got the NA book the same way.

Doesn't matter how many times you try to claim I haven't read it, it will not change the fact I have.

The 2001-2002 study was about people with alcohol problems. It was a a study of alcoholism. Not a study of people with a fictional "lesser state of mind and body" that your old book made up.

If you would have read the book you would know that the book says that AA does not have the only answer. Yet you continue to deny that. They were years ahead of you. They have a system that has worked for millions. It is not scientific it is a spiritual one. If you only believe science You have a lot to learn. It is changing every day. Tell me how many dimensions there are? Science proposes many.

In the mean time carry on you will just get worse and worse with each and every drink. With that I will leave you to wallow in your misery.

[big carl]

The AA Big Book wasn't written in 1933 too.

He is a waste of time.So deep in denial and self that he is unreachable give him time and he will die or drop the pretense.

[balo]

The only advice I can give OP is do not drink and drive. Do not put other peoples lifes in danger, when an accident suddenly happens its too late.

[Johnniey]

Jumping to conclusions?

I have read the book. The Narcotics Anonymous book too. It is a book of non-science. So it seems you agree that in fact, I am very qualified. I just do not hold the same belief systems as you. Mostly because of what I learnt about addiction in therapy and what I read about it in medical studies.

But for the book, indeed - I have read such gems as:

"Rarely have we seen a person fail who has thoroughly followed our path. Those who do not recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way. They are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average. There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."

Onto science.... The 2001-2002 National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions found abstinence and moderation to be equally effective. Among the 43,000 alcoholics surveyed, nearly 36 percent were in recovery—18.2 percent were abstainers and 17.7 percent were moderate drinkers.

Of course, that doesn't fit the 1933 book written by 2 non scientists.

AA is 100% willpower, which is why the failure rate is so high. Of course, you choose to believe that it's a higher power. That God somehow ignores the prayers to help kids with cancer but instead helps people with self inflicted addictions stop from getting drunk every day.

Fact is we know so much more about the effects on the brain nowadays. There are a lot more treatment options. I have to commend anyone that gives up through willpower alone (even if they call it higher power) but for me it took something else.

As for your rather lame attempts at baiting me... I'm not going to a bar. I have a growing business to run. I had a drink on Friday last week - a couple of beers with dinner. Prior to that was the 3 beers I had on New Years Eve. I know this goes against what that old book told us all - but some people do get out the other side without the belief system that AA drums into many. For some abstinence is probably best, for others, they can moderate.

On the topic of abstinence though - I would agree it's definitely the best starting point even if your goal is moderation later on. Just giving yourself 30 days off booze will give you a whole new perspective on life.

I managed 4 months once nothing changed I was still an alcoholic in need of a drink.

As I told you read the book don't rewrite it. Many of us have done that only to wind up drunk. Any fool can copy. If you have it so well in hand why do you feel compelled to come on to a forum about people who drink to much you have no knowledge of the disease according to you all you do is read old medical reports. More than likely paid for by companies directly involved in selling Alcohol.

You are quite correct there are a lot more treatments around always has been. They even work for some people. But as you know having read the Big Book AA does not claim to be the only way. Just seems to have the best record. Part of that is because it recognizes alcoholism as a disease that you will always have if you are an Alcoholic. That one drink will set you off. They offer a program of recovery you know the one you quoted the first paragraph from. but conveniently omitted the one about what an order I can not go through with it. do not be discouraged no one among us has been able to maintain any thing like perfect adherence to these principals. Hope I got it rite am quoting from memory.

Edit

Your writing information AA is typical of all your other drivel. AA was founded in 1935 the book was written later and it was written by more than two people. One of who was a medical doctor sorry I don't know the professions of the others. I do know that several of them were professional men.

Now drink up we will always have a seat for you.

I have read the book.

I found much of it nonsense. I have no need to rewrite it. Much of it is damaging.

Many things in the book are non-science, hence I am quoting from medical research.

You on the other hand have 100% faith in everything that is written in that book. You are repeating it, without sparing a single thought for the damage you are doing. You will not hear that a single word in and old book could be wrong or that new research could have superseded anything in that book.

What you are saying is that the one medical doctor in that book is wiser than the National Epidemiologic Survey on Alcohol and Related Conditions which studied 43,000 alcoholics. You imply that this study must surely have been biased and paid for by the alcohol industry. You even call it an "old medical report" yet it was done in 2001-2002, which makes it much younger than your Big Book.

Do you understand how irrational you are being? "Science is biased, the book is the word". No amendments to the book are allowed. The book is perfect and science cannot ever prove anything in the book incorrect. You do know it's not the Koran, right?

So people - now you know how an "AA extremist" operates - approach with caution. Take the support from AA - it is the reason it has value.

Do not buy into the dogma or you will convince yourself you have a problem for life just as Big Carl has.

For reference, here is the study: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/74-78.htm

Here is the organization (National Institure of Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism): http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/

Their funding

NIAAA is the lead agency in the United States for research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health effects of alcohol. As a component of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, NIAAA is funded by the U.S. government.

Each year, NIAAA submits its budget request to NIH. This request is incorporated into the full NIH budget request, which is sent to the President for consideration. Congress then considers the President’s budget proposal and approves, modifies, or disapproves it. Once Congress finalizes the appropriate spending bill, appropriations are made to each government agency, including NIH.

As for AA having the best record - it does not, it has one of the poorest records - you know that full well because you know how many people come to meetings a few times and never return.

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/news-events/news-noteworthy/nida-and-niaaa-commentary-strongly-supports-brain-disease-model

NIDA and NIAAA commentary strongly supports brain disease model of addiction

The brain disease model of addiction is strongly supported by scientific evidence, according to a commentary published today in The Lancet Psychiatry by NIDA Director Dr. Nora Volkow and NIAAA Director Dr. George Koob.

The two NIH Institute Directors point out that animal and human studies have shown that critical brain structures and behaviors are disrupted by chronic exposure to drugs and alcohol. These findings, along with ongoing research, are helping to explain how drugs and alcohol affect brain processes associated with loss of control, compulsive drug taking, inflexible behavior, and negative emotional states associated with addiction. Understanding these processes has already resulted in several effective medicines, as well as new and promising medication targets to treat drug and alcohol addiction. The authors add that this process of discovery within a disease framework has also led to the development of promising brain stimulation treatments and behavioral interventions, and has had a positive impact on public policy.

The commentary, co-authored by Nora D. Volkow, M.D., director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA), and George Koob, Ph.D., director of the National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA), was written in response to the Personal View article, by Wayne Hall and colleagues. NIDA and NIAAA are part of the National Institutes of Health.

Reference: “Brain disease model of addiction: why is it so controversial?” by Nora D. Volkow, M.D., Director, National Institute on Drug Abuse and George Koob, Ph.D., Director, National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism published online July 29, 2015 in The Lancet Psychiatry. It will also appear in the August print issue of The Lancet Psychiatry journal.

For information on Drugs, Brains, and Behavior: The Science of Addiction: http://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/drugs-brains-behavior-science-addiction/preface

Also see, Neuroscience: Pathways to Alcohol Dependence: http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/AA77/AA77.pdf

For more information, contact the NIDA press office at [email protected] or 301-443-6245, or the NIAAA press office at [email protected]or 301-443-2857